Grinding assault/support when you hate pvp

Stinkyremy · February 2018

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

- Follow zerg and spam mutagen. FPS still be a problem though.
- Stay back at keep after def for tick.
- Buy bunches of wall and door repair kit, walk around, check every corner of every keep and repair everything.
- 3 days is nothing. They lower the xp a lots to get to rank 6 now. Be patient.

Came here to post this, this is the best advice if you hate pvp and don't want to build a char around pvp. Just slot any resto, 20 health 10 stam 34 mag, lfg, even with no cp or impen gear, spam mutegen and you get enough to level.
if not you can do what I did when I leveled my main, a tank. Run around late at night and do the repeatable quests.
Also there is battlegrounds now, idk the ap gain as I'm not a pvp player so have only done a few, but it's another option.

Another option is wait for the midyear mahem and level all the pvp ranks then.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Alcest wrote: »

You gotta serve your alliance, you PVE scrub. So cool to having fun in PVE while your allies dying for fatherland...

All I see in Cyrodiil is gank fests, resource trading, and blues and reds working together because screw the lore. My time is better spent fighting daedra than a bunch of teenagers measuring their digital ***.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Battleground is definitely the way to go now. You can have it in a night or two, and it doesn't take long to pick up on the various game modes.

You can still run with a zero stam, zero speed horse and you won't have to ride all over creation even if your horse is maxed.

That's probably one of the worst parts for me. That character is at 21 riding speed, takes forever to get around Cyrodiil and I'm always left in the dust by the zerg.

Why did they make cyrodiil with so much useless empty space anyways? Its the most dead zone in the game through 90% of the area.

It actually use to have wildlife. It has resources and quests. The loss of the wildlife for the most part was palpable and it really hasn't felt the same since. I think the lightning shift that happened around the Craglorn patch (if my memory serves me here) is what caused the lag problem that led to the removal of the deer.

I play AD, Lynx, and I'd be glad to help you get your Vigor if you want some time (Pc-US).

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

There's gotta be a better way to do this. I've spent the last 3 nights in cyrodiil and gone to just barely over rank 5 assault (need 6 for caltrops to fill out a pve trials build). I've never liked pvp in this game - aside from the balance issues cyrodiil is plagued with bugs and lag. Every time you get into a heavy battle at a keep your framerate drops to nothing, and the worst part is you get no noticable impact on your assault/support skill lines unless you actually capture the keep - you're SOL if your group gets bombed, you just wasted however much time it took to get to the keep and fight for it in the first place.

Is there a pve-centric way to level these lines? Can I just solo delves in cyro or something for AP?

Nothing bugs me more than games which force pvp onto players that dislike it, for whatever reason, in order to be effective in endgame pve. Right now caltrops is too good to pass up for a stamina dps role. At the same time, aside from monster sets (which can still be purchased from the gold vendor), nothing in pve is so critical for pvp performance.
Honestly these two skill lines are worse to level for me than mages guild, and that's saying something when it comes to console play with no mage-book addons.

Having to level undaunted, mages guild and fighters guild when I hate pve. Can't I just get there for free? What about dungeon gear why can't I just buy that with AP from a vendor.

But really though pvp players have it alot worse trying to grind.

L o l. What do you think The Golden does?

Dracane · February 2018

The grind is annoying even when you enjoy pvp. Babysitting my stamina friends until they get Vigor makes me nervous.
Then again I imagine, pvpers who don't want to pve are more than bothered by reaching Undaunted 9.

Arkangeloski · February 2018

Go quest bruma or one of those small towns.

Feanor · February 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Datthaw wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

There's gotta be a better way to do this. I've spent the last 3 nights in cyrodiil and gone to just barely over rank 5 assault (need 6 for caltrops to fill out a pve trials build). I've never liked pvp in this game - aside from the balance issues cyrodiil is plagued with bugs and lag. Every time you get into a heavy battle at a keep your framerate drops to nothing, and the worst part is you get no noticable impact on your assault/support skill lines unless you actually capture the keep - you're SOL if your group gets bombed, you just wasted however much time it took to get to the keep and fight for it in the first place.

Is there a pve-centric way to level these lines? Can I just solo delves in cyro or something for AP?

Nothing bugs me more than games which force pvp onto players that dislike it, for whatever reason, in order to be effective in endgame pve. Right now caltrops is too good to pass up for a stamina dps role. At the same time, aside from monster sets (which can still be purchased from the gold vendor), nothing in pve is so critical for pvp performance.
Honestly these two skill lines are worse to level for me than mages guild, and that's saying something when it comes to console play with no mage-book addons.

Having to level undaunted, mages guild and fighters guild when I hate pve. Can't I just get there for free? What about dungeon gear why can't I just buy that with AP from a vendor.

But really though pvp players have it alot worse trying to grind.

L o l. What do you think The Golden does?

It’s helmets, shoulders and jewelry, not full sets. Only the shoulders and the jewelry are worthwhile since the helmets are a guaranteed drop. And on top of it it’s RNG which sets are in there. Mostly not good ones.

Eirella · February 2018

We need a PVP way to earn exp for Undaunted, Fighters, and Mages guilds then since I hate being forced to do pve content that I'm not interested in.

Beardimus · February 2018

drkfrontiers wrote: »

I always wondered about that lol.

Grind ones @ss off to get the best gear in a game... only so you can grind said aspect of the game more... (By which point it's thoroughly devoid of any enjoyment because you saw it as a grind.) Why would I want to do that to myself?!

I run the dungeons till I get bored and don't look back. I will never need the rewards anyway. My play-style is retardedly casual. Someone challenges me to a dual .. my eyes start watering with laughter.

I work for a living. Gaming is my quiet time. My treat. No ways I'm going to turn it into a job.

Amen of that. They grind XP to grind CP to grind gear to get to their end game and realize. Oh, content is too easy, not enough content etc etc. Gamers are a funny bunch.

GimpyPorcupine · February 2018

How to level A/S for PvE'ers....

1. Load into Cyrodiil
2. Type the following "/z lfg, need [Caltrops][Warhorn][Barrier], will stay on crown"
3. Actually stay on crown.
4. Profit

Knootewoot · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

nothing in pve is so critical for pvp performance.
.

Hmm right.

the majority of the skyshards
the majority of the skillpoints
vMA weapons for certain builds
monstersets, yes i name them because i don't have them all and haven't seen them on golden yet
Certain sets, i want amberplasm is not available in PvP
Crafted sets, as i need to "PvE" to gather resources. Also counts for foods/drinks/potions
PvP doesn't make money so i have to grind some PvE to get some
fighterguilds
magesguild
undaunted

Really, 98% is already PvE. And you only hear PvE'ers complain who hate PvP for some skills that are not really mandatory unless some l33t guilds demands it. I did all content i did without using PvP skills.

Nihility42 · February 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

drkfrontiers wrote: »

I always wondered about that lol.

Grind ones @ss off to get the best gear in a game... only so you can grind said aspect of the game more... (By which point it's thoroughly devoid of any enjoyment because you saw it as a grind.) Why would I want to do that to myself?!

I run the dungeons till I get bored and don't look back. I will never need the rewards anyway. My play-style is retardedly casual. Someone challenges me to a dual .. my eyes start watering with laughter.

I work for a living. Gaming is my quiet time. My treat. No ways I'm going to turn it into a job.

Amen of that. They grind XP to grind CP to grind gear to get to their end game and realize. Oh, content is too easy, not enough content etc etc. Gamers are a funny bunch.

That's when you go PVP because other players always offer a higher level of challenge than PVE.

Eirella wrote: »

We need a PVP way to earn exp for Undaunted, Fighters, and Mages guilds then since I hate being forced to do pve content that I'm not interested in.

This please. I don't even hate PVE content. I enjoy doing it, on my PVE toons. I don't want to feel forced into creating a PVE loadout for my PVPer to get unadaunted any more than you want to PVP. Undaunted also takes significantly longer and more investment than following a zerg for a coiuple of nights.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

idk · February 2018

PvP is the best way to grind those skill lines to gain those skills.

Zos purposely placed skills like WH and Vigor into AvA and understand there are some, like tanks and healers, that do not want to PvP but must to get their required skills if they want to be serious in PvE. It was a conscious choice.

BTW, 3 days to get to lvl 5 is kinda long. Either it is 3 very short days or someone is having trouble finding the action.

Gnortranermara · February 2018

Just cap resources. They yield 1.5k AP each. You should be able to solo them but get a partner if you need it. If you stay off the inner circle emp keeps, you'll have very little resistance. Every hour, stop and go kill a delve boss for the 20% AP bonus. It'll take time but you can mostly avoid actual PvP combat that way. You can also do door and wall repairs, no combat necessary.

Biro123 · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Really? I've got 3 characters at rank 10 undaunted and another at 9 without even really trying, just a few trials and daily pledges

Minalan · February 2018

MattT1988 wrote: »

Yes it sucks, but they have to grind undaunted. So give and take.

Mage guild books.

/thread

Hurtfan · February 2018

Having grinded both undaunted and PvP skill lines, everyone is being a drama queen. Neither is that hard, including collecting books for the Mages guild line, there's maps online that will save a ton of time for that, for example.

DieAlteHexe · February 2018

Hurtfan wrote: »

Having grinded both undaunted and PvP skill lines, everyone is being a drama queen. Neither is that hard, including collecting books for the Mages guild line, there's maps online that will save a ton of time for that, for example.

Pretty much agree. Seems as if "hard" is being made synonymous with "tedious" or "time consuming".

Now some of those dungeons, trials etc. those look really tricky to me but that may be because I know diddly squat about 'em.

xbobx · February 2018

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Probably the most PVE way to gain AP:
- Repair Keep walls and doors, especially after keep wall upgrades. (Kits can be purchased with gold)
- Taking resources far from action (1.5k each time)
- Repeatable town quests in Cyrodiil

i keep trying to do that but 99% of the time people come out of nowhere just as you are about to get the exp and kills you. so frustrating.

the pvp in this game is the worst i have ever seen. I can relate to you op, i hate it so much but for a stamina character its almost a most. Having vigor on nightblade has changed that class for me.

lucky_Sage · February 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I feel the same way about Undaunted and I don't really hate doing dungeons I just don't like the repetition of doing them over and over and over and over. Just like PvP the best elements of Undaunted are in the final levels of the passives. Unlike PvP however, you can't just quit doing Undaunted once you've 'gotten what you needed' because as I said the best parts are at the final 9th level of Undaunted. Conversely if you don't like PvP the final passives of Alliance War skills are not even needed or useful. Seems a little backwards doesn't it?

If you don't like pve, you're playing the wrong game. The main focus of ESO is pve, so expecting a pvper to pve is in fact not backwards at all, it's what the game is about. But expecting a pve player to do pvp is very much backwards, because if you want to protect Nirn, you shouldn't have to kill other people to be able to do so, because it entirely defeats the purpose of your pursuit.

With that said, I agree that it's a poor design choice. Skills (and in fact skill points) shouldn't be hidden behind specific game modes, not having access to certain gear sets is enough of a punishment.

@ZeroXFF then why when this game launched it was pvp focused go back and look at all old adds and interviews it was mostly pvp it just changed because of poor server and balance o pvpers quit so went more pve now but for us pvpers its takes a long time for undaunted and it at most 3 hours to lvl my undaunted 5 when ive don't about 10 pledges and about 20 or so dunguons and I'm just now at 7 when that's days of work that cant be done in a night the best gear is in dunguons so I have to farm them and the golden vender is a joke its more luck and rng than doing the dungeon for it. you also have mages guild fighters guild also take a long time all pve needed for pvpers

I wish it only took 4 hours to get undaunted up so I could pvp . its part of the game dasign they want you to do all if you tried ou might fnd a way to enjoy it I do with dungeons some times and some times I hate them

Biro123 · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Really? I've got 3 characters at rank 10 undaunted and another at 9 without even really trying, just a few trials and daily pledges

Pretty much - but then I can unlock caltrops in just a couple of hours play.

I've never done a trial and don't like doing dungeons - especially veterans - mostly because family life means I have to play in a way that lets me suddenly leave the game to attend to stuff - ie. leaving whatever group I'm part of in the lurch.
So rather than doing that, I Solo'd Undaunted. Most runs taking 1-2 hours.
Took me 18 months. Mostly because I couldn't stomach doing it for my whole playtime every day - I had to keep going back to PVP to keep sane. Partly because many DLC stuff was just unsoloable, so many of the achievements that award undaunted were undoable.
So I obviously don't have a group of dedicated PVE friends who could just rush me through that stuff.

Not to mention the dungeons I farmed solo for gear too.... All so I can be competitive at PVP.

But yeah, seriously, 5 days doing content you don't like to unlock something, then done is nothing really..

TequilaFire · February 2018

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

- Follow zerg and spam mutagen. FPS still be a problem though.
- Stay back at keep after def for tick.
- Buy bunches of wall and door repair kit, walk around, check every corner of every keep and repair everything.
- 3 days is nothing. They lower the xp a lots to get to rank 6 now. Be patient.

Please spam Rapid Regen not Mutagen please!

Hurtfan · February 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Really? I've got 3 characters at rank 10 undaunted and another at 9 without even really trying, just a few trials and daily pledges

Pretty much - but then I can unlock caltrops in just a couple of hours play.

I've never done a trial and don't like doing dungeons - especially veterans - mostly because family life means I have to play in a way that lets me suddenly leave the game to attend to stuff - ie. leaving whatever group I'm part of in the lurch.
So rather than doing that, I Solo'd Undaunted. Most runs taking 1-2 hours.
Took me 18 months. Mostly because I couldn't stomach doing it for my whole playtime every day - I had to keep going back to PVP to keep sane. Partly because many DLC stuff was just unsoloable, so many of the achievements that award undaunted were undoable.
So I obviously don't have a group of dedicated PVE friends who could just rush me through that stuff.

Not to mention the dungeons I farmed solo for gear too.... All so I can be competitive at PVP.

But yeah, seriously, 5 days doing content you don't like to unlock something, then done is nothing really..

Completely understand that life >> ESO...I work a ton of hours. But I'm guessing if you just did the daily undaunted quest (no dungeons) you would've hit level 9 a lot sooner than 18 months? You may not even have had the time, but I at least logged in every day and did the daily, took an average of 15 mins or so. The daily doesn't give you a lot towards the undaunted line but it adds up quick.

Hurtfan · February 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Really? I've got 3 characters at rank 10 undaunted and another at 9 without even really trying, just a few trials and daily pledges

Pretty much - but then I can unlock caltrops in just a couple of hours play.

I've never done a trial and don't like doing dungeons - especially veterans - mostly because family life means I have to play in a way that lets me suddenly leave the game to attend to stuff - ie. leaving whatever group I'm part of in the lurch.
So rather than doing that, I Solo'd Undaunted. Most runs taking 1-2 hours.
Took me 18 months. Mostly because I couldn't stomach doing it for my whole playtime every day - I had to keep going back to PVP to keep sane. Partly because many DLC stuff was just unsoloable, so many of the achievements that award undaunted were undoable.
So I obviously don't have a group of dedicated PVE friends who could just rush me through that stuff.

Not to mention the dungeons I farmed solo for gear too.... All so I can be competitive at PVP.

But yeah, seriously, 5 days doing content you don't like to unlock something, then done is nothing really..

Completely understand that life >> ESO...I work a ton of hours. But I'm guessing if you just did the daily undaunted quest (no dungeons) you would've hit level 9 a lot sooner than 18 months? You may not even have had the time, but I at least logged in every day and did the daily, took an average of 15 mins or so. The daily doesn't give you a lot towards the undaunted line but it adds up quick.

Pops_ND_Irish · February 2018

I play pvp just to level assault for Vigor and Caltrops. I dont go there otherwise because im not very good at it.
Ill leave pvp to the experts.

Biro123 · February 2018

Hurtfan wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Really? I've got 3 characters at rank 10 undaunted and another at 9 without even really trying, just a few trials and daily pledges

Pretty much - but then I can unlock caltrops in just a couple of hours play.

I've never done a trial and don't like doing dungeons - especially veterans - mostly because family life means I have to play in a way that lets me suddenly leave the game to attend to stuff - ie. leaving whatever group I'm part of in the lurch.
So rather than doing that, I Solo'd Undaunted. Most runs taking 1-2 hours.
Took me 18 months. Mostly because I couldn't stomach doing it for my whole playtime every day - I had to keep going back to PVP to keep sane. Partly because many DLC stuff was just unsoloable, so many of the achievements that award undaunted were undoable.
So I obviously don't have a group of dedicated PVE friends who could just rush me through that stuff.

Not to mention the dungeons I farmed solo for gear too.... All so I can be competitive at PVP.

But yeah, seriously, 5 days doing content you don't like to unlock something, then done is nothing really..

Completely understand that life >> ESO...I work a ton of hours. But I'm guessing if you just did the daily undaunted quest (no dungeons) you would've hit level 9 a lot sooner than 18 months? You may not even have had the time, but I at least logged in every day and did the daily, took an average of 15 mins or so. The daily doesn't give you a lot towards the undaunted line but it adds up quick.

Yeah, ultimately that's what did it - That quest didn't exist for the first 12 (or so) of those 18 months though. But even that messes with stuff.. I used to queue for cyro and then head off to do those quests - but they were always soo far from the nearest wayshrine (or sometimes in a zone I'd never unlocked on that toon) - that the cyro queue has popped up before I'd finished it.. Knowing its getting close to primetime (given my playtimes) - I'd almost always jump in - otherwise it could be quite a wait!
So even those took me that long to do that it didn't seem worth the time took doing them (although that was before they upped the undaunted-xp you got for it)

I just think that these things should be behind a big enough wall to ensure you have had enough of a 'go' at the content you don't really like - just to be sure you don't really like it - but then have it account bound.. I've done more than enough dungeons to know I hate doing them - a mechanic that tries to get me to do them on my other characters too is not going to make me change my mind. Once is enough!

Loves_guars · February 2018

1- Buy wall repair kit with gold

2- Go kill a Delve Boss, it gives you a bonus for AP points gain for an hour.

3- Visit all keeps to repair walls

4- Equip any restoration staff and heal large groups, this will give you some AP.

Battlegrounds are not very efficient for AP gain in my experience.

BTW, I think that PVPers have it worse, they have to grind a lot of stuff doing PVE.

EvilAutoTech · February 2018

By the time I had Vigor on my first character I still hated pvp. But Vigor was so good for my stamblade that I decided I would take my stamplar in for it as well. Clockwork City dropped and I started getting tons of transmute crystals. That Templar has since become a tank whom I love to take to Cyrodiil. I now regularly go into pvp on all my toons and have actually created a new character specifically for pvp.

I do find it more difficult on the EU server because no gold, no crafter, no skill points, slow mount, etc.

Hurtfan · February 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

5th night of PvP, finally got it. Part of the problem was the zergs would always stall out after a couple of keep captures and then I'd spend a couple hours getting hardly any ap. Just tedious.

Anyways, glad That's over with. Stamsorc trial build is doing much better now.

Wish I could get Undaunted Mettle in 5 evenings.. Took me 18 months.... Resigned to never getting it on another toon.

Really? I've got 3 characters at rank 10 undaunted and another at 9 without even really trying, just a few trials and daily pledges

Pretty much - but then I can unlock caltrops in just a couple of hours play.

I've never done a trial and don't like doing dungeons - especially veterans - mostly because family life means I have to play in a way that lets me suddenly leave the game to attend to stuff - ie. leaving whatever group I'm part of in the lurch.
So rather than doing that, I Solo'd Undaunted. Most runs taking 1-2 hours.
Took me 18 months. Mostly because I couldn't stomach doing it for my whole playtime every day - I had to keep going back to PVP to keep sane. Partly because many DLC stuff was just unsoloable, so many of the achievements that award undaunted were undoable.
So I obviously don't have a group of dedicated PVE friends who could just rush me through that stuff.

Not to mention the dungeons I farmed solo for gear too.... All so I can be competitive at PVP.

But yeah, seriously, 5 days doing content you don't like to unlock something, then done is nothing really..

Completely understand that life >> ESO...I work a ton of hours. But I'm guessing if you just did the daily undaunted quest (no dungeons) you would've hit level 9 a lot sooner than 18 months? You may not even have had the time, but I at least logged in every day and did the daily, took an average of 15 mins or so. The daily doesn't give you a lot towards the undaunted line but it adds up quick.

Yeah, ultimately that's what did it - That quest didn't exist for the first 12 (or so) of those 18 months though. But even that messes with stuff.. I used to queue for cyro and then head off to do those quests - but they were always soo far from the nearest wayshrine (or sometimes in a zone I'd never unlocked on that toon) - that the cyro queue has popped up before I'd finished it.. Knowing its getting close to primetime (given my playtimes) - I'd almost always jump in - otherwise it could be quite a wait!
So even those took me that long to do that it didn't seem worth the time took doing them (although that was before they upped the undaunted-xp you got for it)

I just think that these things should be behind a big enough wall to ensure you have had enough of a 'go' at the content you don't really like - just to be sure you don't really like it - but then have it account bound.. I've done more than enough dungeons to know I hate doing them - a mechanic that tries to get me to do them on my other characters too is not going to make me change my mind. Once is enough!

Ah I see, I quit the game for a while and came back about a year ago. I didn't realize the daily quests have not been around the entire time. Well glad they were when I decided to start grinding undaunted. I will say I did have good luck doing normal dungeon runs with PUGs...but I was to the point where I could probably solo a lot of the dungeons on normal.