Jamini wrote: »

Just gonna politely throw this here. From the PTS. A parse from a friend.

[snip for size]

Bow, at least in PvE, is much more viable than some people seem to think. You just need to work harder at it (and the ceiling is a little lower than it is for sNB)

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them

(plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.

That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

//edit;
Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.

This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

I don't think it was overlooked.
Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.

Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:

We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:

• Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
  • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
  • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
• Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
  • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
  • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
• Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
  • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
  • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.

Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

In case you missed it:

1. "
   • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
   • • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
     • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
     "
   
   
   Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!
   
   Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
   

Lol and you say I'm trolling.

First of all I did not say that this is a game of ancient times... But it uses ancient weapons (our ancient weapons..bow, arrows etc) - ... It also uses magic and other weird things..

Spear shard has 25m range but it's radius is 5 meters-ish (I don't have the tooltip) while the acid spray is an arc with radius 20 meters! Also spear lands on the ground and it explodes, and that explosion can't be dodged..idk it sounds logical to me.

I really don't mind if zos makes spray undodgable ... They just need to reduce the radius to 10m first (comparable to whirlwind) - but I doubt that pve community agree!

Why? Bow is a ranged weapon, not something you're supposed to use at melee range. Or did your "ancient archers" run up to peoples' faces to shoot them?

It's bad enough already that Scatter Shot has 10m range (while the comparable skill, Destructive Clench, has 17-28m), main reason bow sucks atm for anything but ganking.

Ancient or not - but you are talking arrows here and not machine gun bullets - and if your bow's chord is throwing 10 arrows at a time then the probability they will penetrate any armor at 15 meters is 0. So basically yes if you choose to shoot a bunch of arrows at the same time then it is basically is a melee - mid range attack - and definitely not a long range attack.
Like it or not - but I would really not push the undodgeable idea here - as if ZOS team makes it undodgable then they will reduce its radius as well - for balance sake - I'm quite sure about it.

Reducing the raidus is entirely your idea and has nothing to do with ZOS. Perhaps you should get a ZOS tag next to your name before presuming their actions.

Your ideas to how bows work have nothing to do with the stated combat changes. This is a MMO, four million arrows could be fired with one draw.

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

They nerfed gap closers - isn't that a bow buff?

Bow has 10m range CC. Gapclosers arent really issue. On the contrary, I welcome everyone that decidec to fight me closer than having to run to them

(plus you usually dodge the gap closer damage anyway)

Yeah that's a point too - before the nerf you had to roll-doge the gap closer as it hurt too much - now you can do something else more useful instead - like placing a trap for example - and then you roll-dodge the Dizzy Swing and then use your CC skill, then place another trap while they gap-close.

And I think it is not a good idea to nerf gap closers and buff range skills in the same iteration.

That would may be reasonable concern if ranged bow builds were already good enough. If you are concerned about bow strength regarding gap closer changes you should right now create thread nerf sorc, because if bow builds somehow got good because of the change, magsorcs must be OP af. I am speaking about class that has everything to suit range Compare it with bow that does not even have ranged CC or instant execute or good damage or undodgeable heavy attacks or undodgeable anything actually...

//edit;
Generally, I dont understand this fear everywhere. Pick weakest class spec (stam/mag) in PVE or PVP in last 2 years. Now pick the strongest one but with bow build. The weakest one is still stronger.
But everytime something about buffing bow comes up people are afraid they suddenly become OP.

Mag sorc are powerful but they are very squishy at the same time. A CC-ed sorc at the right time = dead sorc - but that's another thread.

But bow man - it is strong! You open up with a snipe - followed by a light attack and poison injection (Master bow) - you just cannot buff that up - as it will over perform.

Let the Gap Closer nerf go through first, then adjust bows if needed.

But personally I think that bows are good where they are - also bows gives major expedition when rolldodgin - very powerful buff in PVP.

This is not a Buff bows thread! This has to do with combat changes to AOE skills across the board where bow was the only line excluded. This has nothing to do with Snipe or Poison Injection.

I don't think it was overlooked.
Volley - the arrow showers are blocked since ancient times - blocking was and remains the main counter to it.
Arrow Spray - the arrows can be dodged. Yes it is impossible to dodge when 2 meters away - but very possible to dodge it when at the other end of the range. So this one still can be looked at - and maybe add distance into the formula - but that's way too complicated.

Where did pulling a horse out of your arse to ride come from ancient times? Or perhaps the ancient times bags that took up no physical space but carried an incredible amount of gear and infinite numbers of plants, leather, cloth, and ore?

Combat changes in an MMO are made for competitive reasons not because of your fabled ancient times defense.

And arrows can be dodged but knives thrown 9m in every direction including backwards can't be dodged?

Do you seriously even think about the arguments you are making? Or are you just trolling for the fun of it?

Well - it is not a real horse - look at it like a powerful spell - and most of the mounts look like energy to me anyway.

And there are 2 knifes in the Whirlwind that you spin around you - to dodge it you need to jump-dodge (no such mechanic yet) or crawl- dodge it(not such mechanic) or be at the very far edge of it (too complicated to put it in the equation).

And I've mentioned that the distance is crucial when shooting arrows - arrows can be dodged easier at 10-20 meters away!

Also talking about competitiveness - are you seriously saying that having a 20m Undodgable Cone AOE is competitive?
Maybe make Arrow Spray undodgeable but 10m then? But then all bow users will cry that their bow is getting nerfed because of PVP players that are having hard time to pull a Bow/Bow build.

Powerful Spells didn't exist in Ancient Times so that doesn't do you any favors. When these two knives spin around you they also extend your arms out 9m? Are you also implying that somehow projectiles are more dodgeable than someones swing? I'm fairly certain if you examine your Ancient Times you will find that dodging someones swing was totally doable.

So distance is the crucial factor? Perhaps you should look more closely at the PTS notes:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Developer Comment - Block and Dodge Rulesets:

We’ve updated several abilities so they better adhere to our block and dodge mechanics. The system is set up to be intuitive – attacks on the ground such as fire or Caltrops cannot be blocked or dodged. We also want dodging to be useful during some instances, and blocking to be useful at other times. The ruleset is as follows:

• Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
  • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
  • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
• Attacks that cannot be blocked or dodged
  • Damage on the ground such as Wall of Elements, Caltrops, or Lightning Splash.
  • Effects that are on or inside a player character, such as Daedric Curse, or Backlash. (Damage over time effects)
• Attacks that can be dodged, but not blocked
  • Secondary effects that penetrate Block such as the Damage over Time from Sunfire, the surprise attack armor debuff, or the snare from Low Slash snare.
  • Note: Block continues to provide stun immunity, so it will stop a secondary effect like the stun from Stonefist.

Exceptions to these rules will be stated each ability’s tooltip, such as Fiery Grip which cannot be dodged or reflected.

In case you missed it:

1. "
   • Attacks that can be blocked, but not dodged
   • • AoE explosions such as Radial Sweep, Spear Shards’ initial hit, or Drain Power.
     • Beam attacks such as Radiant Destruction, Lightning Staff, or Soul Strike.
     "
   
   
   Certainly 25m on Spear Shards isn't considered ranged is it? If so then Arrow Sprays 20m is definitely MELEE!
   
   Wardens have a 20m undodgeable AOE that more than doubles the damage of Arrow Spray while also either providing a major debuff or stunning you. And you are worried about Arrow Spray?
   

Lol and you say I'm trolling.

First of all I did not say that this is a game of ancient times... But it uses ancient weapons (our ancient weapons..bow, arrows etc) - ... It also uses magic and other weird things..

Spear shard has 25m range but it's radius is 5 meters-ish (I don't have the tooltip) while the acid spray is an arc with radius 20 meters! Also spear lands on the ground and it explodes, and that explosion can't be dodged..idk it sounds logical to me.

I really don't mind if zos makes spray undodgable ... They just need to reduce the radius to 10m first (comparable to whirlwind) - but I doubt that pve community agree!

Why? Bow is a ranged weapon, not something you're supposed to use at melee range. Or did your "ancient archers" run up to peoples' faces to shoot them?

It's bad enough already that Scatter Shot has 10m range (while the comparable skill, Destructive Clench, has 17-28m), main reason bow sucks atm for anything but ganking.

Ancient or not - but you are talking arrows here and not machine gun bullets - and if your bow's chord is throwing 10 arrows at a time then the probability they will penetrate any armor at 15 meters is 0. So basically yes if you choose to shoot a bunch of arrows at the same time then it is basically is a melee - mid range attack - and definitely not a long range attack.
Like it or not - but I would really not push the undodgeable idea here - as if ZOS team makes it undodgable then they will reduce its radius as well - for balance sake - I'm quite sure about it.

Reducing the raidus is entirely your idea and has nothing to do with ZOS. Perhaps you should get a ZOS tag next to your name before presuming their actions.

Your ideas to how bows work have nothing to do with the stated combat changes. This is a MMO, four million arrows could be fired with one draw.

It is my opinion, and I can freely express it here until banned by zos-tag owners.

And I repeat myself - having a 20m undodgeable Arc is over powered in pvp(in my opinion). Making it undodgeable is a reasonable idea (for the sake of consistency with other aoes) as OP mentioned but it has to be nerfed to keep it ballanced in this way(in my opinion) - and the best way to do it (in my opinion ) is to reduce its radius. That's why I believe that it is better to leave it as is and blame the arrow's physics for it being a dodgeable skill(in my opinion).

And look how many players complained about warden's bird skill ... It finally is getting fixed... but wait now you want an aoe version of it ... No more comments