Carbonised wrote: »As a MagDK main who likes to do both PvP and PvE, this continued hostility from the gameplay dev team (looking at you, Wroebel) towards my class and my spec is starting to become really frustrating.
It seems like every patch and update has some new nerfs and tweaks (read: more nerfs) towards the DK class, and especially the MagDK spec of the class.
How long do you intend to let the MagDK suffer from being OP more than 2 years ago? Heck, I wasn't even playing back then.
Drakkdjinn wrote: »But they added a new DK in Morrowind for u to buy...dunno why ppl haven’t adjusted their DK play style to that as Zo$ intended...
Balance will cost you extra!
Hate to say it, but these nerf are mainly hitting the pve aspect of dks. In pvp, they have arguably been the strongest class for months. When you face a class that can block 100% of the time, has no bashable skills, still does damage wit sword and board front bar in heavy armor, has the strongest single target PRESSURE available, has a FREE TO CAST hard hitting abillity that HEALS, there isn't much counterplay available. I remember when the first pts notes came out this cycle, and dks were ECSTATIC about the fact that they would be able to power lash 5x in a row. How can you even, in good conscience, defend something like that? You can't. If you try to from a pvp perspective, you're lying to yourself and you also likely main the class.
The shafting was a long time coming.
Hate to say it, but these nerf are mainly hitting the pve aspect of dks. In pvp, they have arguably been the strongest class for months. When you face a class that can block 100% of the time, has no bashable skills, still does damage wit sword and board front bar in heavy armor, has the strongest single target PRESSURE available, has a FREE TO CAST hard hitting abillity that HEALS, there isn't much counterplay available. I remember when the first pts notes came out this cycle, and dks were ECSTATIC about the fact that they would be able to power lash 5x in a row. How can you even, in good conscience, defend something like that? You can't. If you try to from a pvp perspective, you're lying to yourself and you also likely main the class.
The shafting was a long time coming.
Hate to say it, but these nerf are mainly hitting the pve aspect of dks. In pvp, they have arguably been the strongest class for months. When you face a class that can block 100% of the time, has no bashable skills, still does damage wit sword and board front bar in heavy armor, has the strongest single target PRESSURE available, has a FREE TO CAST hard hitting abillity that HEALS, there isn't much counterplay available. I remember when the first pts notes came out this cycle, and dks were ECSTATIC about the fact that they would be able to power lash 5x in a row. How can you even, in good conscience, defend something like that? You can't. If you try to from a pvp perspective, you're lying to yourself and you also likely main the class.
The shafting was a long time coming.
You know, having done some research (with numbers and actually looking up in-game data via addons) I actually owe @Vaoh an apology for bashing him over sorcerers. Recently I've been recording kill-death data in Cyrodiil on various factions and campaigns to get a general idea of what is and is not played in PvP today.
The results both did and did not surprise me.
All numbers are rough estimates:
No-CP Class Breakdown
NightBlade | 40%
Templar | 25%
Sorcerer | 15%
Dragonknight | 15%
Warden | 5% (P2W, availability reduces their numbers)
CP Class Breakdown.
NightBlade | 30%
Templar | 25%
Dragonknight | 20%
Sorcerer | 15%
Warden | 10% (Again, availability reduces potential numbers)
My sample size is still fairly small, but so far my results have been consistent across the last week.
As far as I can tell, excluding warden due to the paid nature of the class, Sorcerer and DK pretty consistently make up the lower 30-40% of class composition on the field. While NightBlade (likely majority stamina) clearly dominate in numbers. From this data, I hypothesize a few things:
1. The recent changes to Sorcerer (loss of stun and damage on frags) hurt them far more than I originally assumed. Stamina sorcerer also seems to be played far less than it did a year ago.
2. Templars remain high on the list due to their zergball tactics and ready place as a healer.
3. Dragonknights do not fare well in the bulk of PvP (that is, open world and sieges), regardless of their dueling potential. Players have been drifting away from mag and stam DK.
4. NBs remain hyper popular, and due to their high viability in raiding (NB parses are some of the highest in the game, and NBs of both types are desired in raids) as well as their high ability in PvP, they do well. This is DESPITE some of their core skills STILL being broken.
---
After dragonbones drops I'm going to start recording my full data set I think, and post my results and theories. Keep an eye out for it in the next few weeks.
I'd like to say that may be due to the meta sorcs/DK also being hard to kill and having some difficulty killing others after the changes, not 100% down to played, whilst many stamblades can kill/be killed quicker and more often, so are seen on the stats more.
I'd like to say that may be due to the meta sorcs/DK also being hard to kill and having some difficulty killing others after the changes, not 100% down to played, whilst many stamblades can kill/be killed quicker and more often, so are seen on the stats more.
There are very, very few DKs that can survive AT LENGTH when they are zerged down. Even blocktanks get ground down eventually by a group. I would highly doubt that what you commented on even accounts for a 5% difference in kill results, especially as most AvA gameplay revolves around bigger groups steamrolling small groups.
If a class is having outright problems killing people, then I would argue that that class is in no way overpowered. Hell, it's a far cry to call them strong. A stalemate is not a win, and is rarely desirable for either side. (To quote TF2: "Stalemate, EVERYONE loses.")
rustic_potato wrote: »Wait who even plays mDKs on live for serious PVE content anymore? They have been kinda useless ever since stam started outperforming magika.
That kind of mentality is a reason why bow builds for pve will never be buffed or reworked. Just as you put it that "stam took over melee" mag has ranged domimance. Why can both have both?
Stam being best melee, and mag being best ranged is fine, until you consider the melee-only mags, like DKs.
Drakkdjinn wrote: »But they added a new DK in Morrowind for u to buy...dunno why ppl haven’t adjusted their DK play style to that as Zo$ intended...
Balance will cost you extra!
Warden is good in pvp, but why should play anyone them in pve???
You know, having done some research (with numbers and actually looking up in-game data via addons) I actually owe @Vaoh an apology for bashing him over sorcerers. Recently I've been recording kill-death data in Cyrodiil on various factions and campaigns to get a general idea of what is and is not played in PvP today.
The results both did and did not surprise me.
All numbers are rough estimates:
No-CP Class Breakdown
NightBlade | 40%
Templar | 25%
Sorcerer | 15%
Dragonknight | 15%
Warden | 5% (P2W, availability reduces their numbers)
CP Class Breakdown.
NightBlade | 30%
Templar | 25%
Dragonknight | 20%
Sorcerer | 15%
Warden | 10% (Again, availability reduces potential numbers)
My sample size is still fairly small, but so far my results have been consistent across the last week.
As far as I can tell, excluding warden due to the paid nature of the class, Sorcerer and DK pretty consistently make up the lower 30-40% of class composition on the field. While NightBlade (likely majority stamina) clearly dominate in numbers. From this data, I hypothesize a few things:
1. The recent changes to Sorcerer (loss of stun and damage on frags) hurt them far more than I originally assumed. Stamina sorcerer also seems to be played far less than it did a year ago.
2. Templars remain high on the list due to their zergball tactics and ready place as a healer.
3. Dragonknights do not fare well in the bulk of PvP (that is, open world and sieges), regardless of their dueling potential. Players have been drifting away from mag and stam DK.
4. NBs remain hyper popular, and due to their high viability in raiding (NB parses are some of the highest in the game, and NBs of both types are desired in raids) as well as their high ability in PvP, they do well. This is DESPITE some of their core skills STILL being broken.
---
After dragonbones drops I'm going to start recording my full data set I think, and post my results and theories. Keep an eye out for it in the next few weeks.
You know, having done some research (with numbers and actually looking up in-game data via addons) I actually owe @Vaoh an apology for bashing him over sorcerers. Recently I've been recording kill-death data in Cyrodiil on various factions and campaigns to get a general idea of what is and is not played in PvP today.
The results both did and did not surprise me.
All numbers are rough estimates:
No-CP Class Breakdown
NightBlade | 40%
Templar | 25%
Sorcerer | 15%
Dragonknight | 15%
Warden | 5% (P2W, availability reduces their numbers)
CP Class Breakdown.
NightBlade | 30%
Templar | 25%
Dragonknight | 20%
Sorcerer | 15%
Warden | 10% (Again, availability reduces potential numbers)
My sample size is still fairly small, but so far my results have been consistent across the last week.
As far as I can tell, excluding warden due to the paid nature of the class, Sorcerer and DK pretty consistently make up the lower 30-40% of class composition on the field. While NightBlade (likely majority stamina) clearly dominate in numbers. From this data, I hypothesize a few things:
1. The recent changes to Sorcerer (loss of stun and damage on frags) hurt them far more than I originally assumed. Stamina sorcerer also seems to be played far less than it did a year ago.
2. Templars remain high on the list due to their zergball tactics and ready place as a healer.
3. Dragonknights do not fare well in the bulk of PvP (that is, open world and sieges), regardless of their dueling potential. Players have been drifting away from mag and stam DK.
4. NBs remain hyper popular, and due to their high viability in raiding (NB parses are some of the highest in the game, and NBs of both types are desired in raids) as well as their high ability in PvP, they do well. This is DESPITE some of their core skills STILL being broken.
---
After dragonbones drops I'm going to start recording my full data set I think, and post my results and theories. Keep an eye out for it in the next few weeks.
rustic_potato wrote: »Wait who even plays mDKs on live for serious PVE content anymore? They have been kinda useless ever since stam started outperforming magika.
That kind of mentality is a reason why bow builds for pve will never be buffed or reworked. Just as you put it that "stam took over melee" mag has ranged domimance. Why can both have both?
Stam being best melee, and mag being best ranged is fine, until you consider the melee-only mags, like DKs.
And if mag dks become viable in trials, it would only be fair if bow builds are viable too.
PS. Im all for both
Edit, mag vs melee
Drakkdjinn wrote: »Looks like your build is countered by NBs is the only conclusion we can safely draw from your stats.
You know, having done some research (with numbers and actually looking up in-game data via addons) I actually owe @Vaoh an apology for bashing him over sorcerers. Recently I've been recording kill-death data in Cyrodiil on various factions and campaigns to get a general idea of what is and is not played in PvP today.
The results both did and did not surprise me.
All numbers are rough estimates:
No-CP Class Breakdown
NightBlade | 40%
Templar | 25%
Sorcerer | 15%
Dragonknight | 15%
Warden | 5% (P2W, availability reduces their numbers)
CP Class Breakdown.
NightBlade | 30%
Templar | 25%
Dragonknight | 20%
Sorcerer | 15%
Warden | 10% (Again, availability reduces potential numbers)
My sample size is still fairly small, but so far my results have been consistent across the last week.
As far as I can tell, excluding warden due to the paid nature of the class, Sorcerer and DK pretty consistently make up the lower 30-40% of class composition on the field. While NightBlade (likely majority stamina) clearly dominate in numbers. From this data, I hypothesize a few things:
1. The recent changes to Sorcerer (loss of stun and damage on frags) hurt them far more than I originally assumed. Stamina sorcerer also seems to be played far less than it did a year ago.
2. Templars remain high on the list due to their zergball tactics and ready place as a healer.
3. Dragonknights do not fare well in the bulk of PvP (that is, open world and sieges), regardless of their dueling potential. Players have been drifting away from mag and stam DK.
4. NBs remain hyper popular, and due to their high viability in raiding (NB parses are some of the highest in the game, and NBs of both types are desired in raids) as well as their high ability in PvP, they do well. This is DESPITE some of their core skills STILL being broken.
---
After dragonbones drops I'm going to start recording my full data set I think, and post my results and theories. Keep an eye out for it in the next few weeks.
I'd like to say that may be due to the meta sorcs/DK also being hard to kill and having some difficulty killing others after the changes, not 100% down to played, whilst many stamblades can kill/be killed quicker and more often, so are seen on the stats more.
Though it does also reflect the obvious of NBs being player favorite (everyone wants to be the cool edgy ninja, which is why you see so many bad ones) for OW grouped and solo, and templars being very supporty.
@Vaoh May I still be salty that sorcs have a cheaper, longer-ranged version of my mDK's stun?
Sorc version doesn't root the target, return 990 stamina & 3 ultimate and it doesn't have 6k tooltip on dmg like Fossilize (or well, it'll never deal that dmg atleast).
I don't think it's fair to compare the two, Fossilize being melee range is one of the more sensible balance changes ZOS has made.