The real problem with Nightblades

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2018

In PvP Nightblades are seen as unchecked Gods of burst. But as we all know you land one good attack or combo on a Nightblade and that’s gameover. You counter Cloak the most countered power in game to date, it’s game over. You survive the opening burst they die or run. But why is that?

So the class that’s definitely meant to be the best killers of Men, Mer and Beast. Do just that kill fast and efficiently. So why is the class with the lease amount of class burst heals and complete lack of a class shield so powerful?

The simple and sad answer is they are not. Let me explain Nightblades are meant to kill fast and go full glass canon class defense are heavily lacking sustain so burst, burst and more burst is your friend. When all you have is a hammer every problem becomes a nail.
But if Nightblades are just playing the way they are meant to be played unforgiving Assassins way are they so powerful? Again simple and sad you don’t play your class the way it was meant to be played.

In PvP everyone plays with a Nightblade mindset even when not on a Nightblade. Hit like a truck and run for cover when it all goes sideways.
sDK is the perfect example of what a class should do play to your strengths. DKs have sustain and survivable build into their DNA add in CCs and burst combos you get a killer build. mDK are meant to hold their ground and burn away your resources yet what do all mDKs complain about DPS.

mDK is balanced for the long haul not a quick fight yet the Nightblade tactic of full power 24/7 is what mDK try to mimic. This is the same with every class. Players running Canon builds on stand and fight classes.

Problems with mDK and Magplars no escape power, limited burst and so little solo skills. That’s by choice if you build your character in a way that highlights your classes stand your ground powers and passives you will do just fine wildly outnumbered is wildly outnumbered you will die that’s just how it is.

Needing to run is for the Rogue class not the Warrior classes. If more players play to the strengths of your class and not to the strength of others it would be a whole different game.

VaranisArano · January 2018

Most PVP players aim for burst damage because its much easier to purge/heal through sustained, steady damage than it is to mitigate overwhelming burst. That's why Viper was the king of proc sets for a while until ZOS changed it's damage to a DOT and now very few people run it in PVP.

Its true that not all classes are designed to dish out burst damage, but its also true that burst damage is the most efficient way to kill opponents in PVP. So unless you are playing in an organized small group or an organized raid, one of the most efficient ways to score kills and then not die is to "hit like a truck and run for cover if it goes sideways" regardless of class. You even see it in the organized raids that go for the method of "Hit like a truck with all our ultimates then run in a tight ball and heal until our ultimates have regenerated for the next hit like a truck move".

People of all classes do it because it works. "Hit like a truck, then kill or run" isn't just a nightblade thing anymore.

IAVITNI · January 2018

I agree to an extent, because burst is king in PvP. But a Magdk's burst is still significantly less than that of a nightblade. In a large group, I would build for pure damage because my group would make up for what I lack.

That said, a lot of solo/small scale players start builds from survivability/sustain and try to work in as much damage as possible, regardless of class. For instance, I try to aim for 9k shields on a mag sorc or 20k resistances and 13k vigors on medium stam classes and then build damage from there. A lot of players run 2 sustain/mitigation sets in PvP on "tanky" classes like DKs. A magDK builds tanky and tries to apply pressure in order to drain their opponents or pressure them to make a mistake and then burst. magDks aren't "building like nightblades" they're building for burst, which is similar but still distinct. My stamblade usually has +3k weapon damage whereas I'm happy with 2.4k-2.8k spell damage on a magDK/magplar.

The contrast that most people notice is the difference between front-loaded (nb), constant (magDK), and back-loaded damage (sorc). People fail to differentiate between these playstyles and think nightblades are op because they can drop an opponent in 1 opening burst. But it's really just classes playing to their strengths. A dueling spec and an openworld spec for a nightblade varies immensely. Probably a 90% majority of Nightblades will run cloak in open world whereas the opposite is true in duels. A dueling nightblade will spec more into survivablity in the same way that a magDK will build more damage for duels. Right now, only stamdens can truly be called overpowered (mostly due to shimmering shield and insane heals). The rest of the classes are only slightly out of tune or grossly underpowered in PvP (w/o cancer builds) such as stam sorc/stam DK.

Gilvoth · January 2018

No thank you, I like my stealthy nighblade

thankyourat · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most PVP players aim for burst damage because its much easier to purge/heal through sustained, steady damage than it is to mitigate overwhelming burst. That's why Viper was the king of proc sets for a while until ZOS changed it's damage to a DOT and now very few people run it in PVP.

Its true that not all classes are designed to dish out burst damage, but its also true that burst damage is the most efficient way to kill opponents in PVP. So unless you are playing in an organized small group or an organized raid, one of the most efficient ways to score kills and then not die is to "hit like a truck and run for cover if it goes sideways" regardless of class. You even see it in the organized raids that go for the method of "Hit like a truck with all our ultimates then run in a tight ball and heal until our ultimates have regenerated for the next hit like a truck move".

People of all classes do it because it works. "Hit like a truck, then kill or run" isn't just a nightblade thing anymore.

I use to agree with this but I'm starting to disagree. Players are so tanky now that you aren't really going to kill anyone without some type of sustained damage. Dots are really good against all classes even templars because it causes them to continually waste resources purging. 1vX the quality of your opponent may not always be high so burst damage is really good there, but 1v1 bleed builds and dot build are really popular because you simply can't burst down a good build anymore. you need that pressure from dots to pressure their health and resource pools. This is the reason why mag sorc is struggling it's all burst damage with no real sustained damage or pressure.

Derra · January 2018

I don´t have enough fighting spirit left in my to constructively reply to these kind of topics. Which just leads to me repeatedly rubbing the bridge of my nose in disbelief.

krathos · January 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Problems with mDK and Magplars no escape power, limited burst and so little solo skills. That’s by choice if you build your character in a way that highlights your classes stand your ground powers and passives you will do just fine wildly outnumbered is wildly outnumbered you will die that’s just how it is.

The problem is, the ability to stand your ground and still be able to get kills has been significantly diminished on these classes. You have to build high damage and it's less costly to avoid damage than to mitigate it.

ak_pvp · January 2018

What is the point of this post, especially in PTS. I agree, but why do you need to tell us this. Its like the 10th end of the world DK posts. We know they have issues, but it doesn't require a thread, just like we know NB is fine, again, not really thread worthy.

TL:DR of OPs post, Nb is fine.

VaranisArano · January 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Most PVP players aim for burst damage because its much easier to purge/heal through sustained, steady damage than it is to mitigate overwhelming burst. That's why Viper was the king of proc sets for a while until ZOS changed it's damage to a DOT and now very few people run it in PVP.

Its true that not all classes are designed to dish out burst damage, but its also true that burst damage is the most efficient way to kill opponents in PVP. So unless you are playing in an organized small group or an organized raid, one of the most efficient ways to score kills and then not die is to "hit like a truck and run for cover if it goes sideways" regardless of class. You even see it in the organized raids that go for the method of "Hit like a truck with all our ultimates then run in a tight ball and heal until our ultimates have regenerated for the next hit like a truck move".

People of all classes do it because it works. "Hit like a truck, then kill or run" isn't just a nightblade thing anymore.

I use to agree with this but I'm starting to disagree. Players are so tanky now that you aren't really going to kill anyone without some type of sustained damage. Dots are really good against all classes even templars because it causes them to continually waste resources purging. 1vX the quality of your opponent may not always be high so burst damage is really good there, but 1v1 bleed builds and dot build are really popular because you simply can't burst down a good build anymore. you need that pressure from dots to pressure their health and resource pools. This is the reason why mag sorc is struggling it's all burst damage with no real sustained damage or pressure.

"If you can't burst them, then pressure them" is definitely the alternate playstyle to the "if you can't burst them dead, run" playstyle that the OP is talking about. Anyone who doesn't want to or have to skills to cut and run from a failed attack is going to relying on pressure from various DOTs to lower the health and resources pools of the opponent to the point where the opponent is vulnerable to a well-timed burst combo.

So what you describe is indeed true, but its also a response to the idea that burst damage is the most efficient damage in PVP. Lacking in overwhelming burst or failing to overwhelmingly burst damage the opponent, pressure from DOTs allows players to wear the opponent down until their burst combos can kill the opponent. Its a very different tactic from "hit like a truck = kill or run" but it comes from the same roots. More like "hit like a truck, my DOTs will make sure you can't walk away."

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2018

All I’m saying is the glass canon drop all your damage in about 3 seconds was meant for one class. A class that’s very much made for solo power. You know why classes will just never get buffed cause they need to full the roles ZoS made them for and the one players like.

Look at nerfs and buff they have released since the game released they rarely follow what the players ask for why? They are following their own views of what classes, weapons, armor should do. Why not nerf Wrecking Blows damage for years? Is ZoS lazy, uncaring or unable? No they made it as the damaging weapon for heavy armor. That medium users can use it better and make it more powerful was not enough to outright nerf it.

Look at the NPCs and you see how ZoS wants the classes and weapons to work cause they have 100% control over NPCs. Light armor has two weapons healing and destro staff. Medium has bow and dual wield. Heavy armor has one hand and shield and two handed. If you understand how ZoS wants things you can better ask for buffs by knowing what they will and will not do.

ak_pvp wrote: »

What is the point of this post, especially in PTS. I agree, but why do you need to tell us this. Its like the 10th end of the world DK posts. We know they have issues, but it doesn't require a thread, just like we know NB is fine, again, not really thread worthy.

TL:DR of OPs post, Nb is fine.

The point is not to simply say NB is fine but to be a guide as to how to get your class or weapons buffed. ZoS is just not going to add much more damage to DKs cause they need DKs to full that Tanking role if they have both high damage and high survival then you get the undying Gods they were on release. Given the choice ZoS picks time and time again to keep the Tankiness over damage for the class. When you understand why a class is nerfed you can better place your ideas and times to getting it buffed in someway.

krathos wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Problems with mDK and Magplars no escape power, limited burst and so little solo skills. That’s by choice if you build your character in a way that highlights your classes stand your ground powers and passives you will do just fine wildly outnumbered is wildly outnumbered you will die that’s just how it is.

The problem is, the ability to stand your ground and still be able to get kills has been significantly diminished on these classes. You have to build high damage and it's less costly to avoid damage than to mitigate it.

Well I agree with this DKs mainly mDKs can burn a target or targets down with ease. Players want mDKs in PvE to be a good DPS class will never happen again they would have the best of both worlds killing and staying power. Asking for buffs to raw damage or getting upset to damage nerfs is pointless.

We have enough proof that outcry and players will does little to change ZoS mind so to get what you want you have to thing like them only then will you get a class you can actually use. I have little doubt that if DK asked for DoT buffs and the like they would get it as it plays to what the devs want for the class.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · January 2018

End of the day we can keep shouting in to the Void as we have from day one or we can change it up and look it all of this from ZoS point of view. Nightblades get skipped more often then not by the nerf hammer cause NB behaves the way ZoS wanted, Templars don’t get nerfed till they turned glass canon group into steel canons.

Look at ZoS track record and it’s clear they are chasing their own vision for the game. We can use that vision to get what we want within reason or always play catch-up and react to changes we should have seen coming.