This, the idea that an PvP noob even if an decent player will win against an good PvP player is just out there.If this was true then every BiS newbie would be storming Cyrodiil as a 1vX hero.Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.
This, the idea that an PvP noob even if an decent player will win against an good PvP player is just out there.If this was true then every BiS newbie would be storming Cyrodiil as a 1vX hero.Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.
Talking as an PvP scrub and zergling here.
Gear is not as important as long as its relevant.
In PvP you obviously have an PvP bar, ignoring that it might not be fully leveled on noob.
That next is using the skills correctly. Here the pro will run trough noobs like trash mob.
Same is true in PvE but in an far less degree as low dps mostly result in you use longer time and has higher chance of errors.
Now if we talk an very good against an decent pvp player this changes so the decent will beat the good if the good has crappy gear, but how relevant is this?
I have no doubt it helps people, but your claim was that gear and skill don't have as much to do with victories as ping.
Like to play PVP but always as healer (not good with tank and DPS) trying to play with it, but suck at it. Main story now playing with Warden class (also as healer) still think this class can be improved. Seems also in dungeons with warden class healing feels like buggy (any experience that?)
They tell warden class is not good when want play PVP with it. Any thoughts on that?
Right, but I am not debating that. I am debating your claim that skill doesn't matter and latency is the only thing which does.I have no doubt it helps people, but your claim was that gear and skill don't have as much to do with victories as ping.
You've done nothing to counter that claim. Mostly because you can't. There are no counter claims that stand up to scrutiny. I've been watching these same debates occur since the days of Quake Team Fortress.
It does more than just help people. The average human reaction time is a little over 200ms. The best are around 100ms. That right there is the skill level difference. 100ms, best to average. Let's leave below average out of it.
With 100ms - 300ms difference (latency) between players before we allow reaction times to influence things, there is no skill difference that can be shown to be the major influence on outcomes. People are playing from all over the world on two servers. This is what latency equalization in an online game works around.
Anyone can match the best gear sets given the time to farm them. Anyone can rote practice until near perfect. Latency however, especially in a game without equalization, you are stuck with.
You've done nothing to counter my claim.
This, the fraction of player killing blows to deaths is exactly 1:1, have fun changing thisLol.... because it is hard to be "good". I still play, usually support roles with my guildies. Without them, not really fun most times, because I am terrible solo.
Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
PVP is hard, and has a very steep learning curve.
First you need to learn how to make damage with animationcancelling! This is nearly the most important thing in this game, but also difficult to learn. So best you can do to learn how to make a good DPS at a dummie first. Look some tuturials from experienced players and try it.
After learning it or while learning it you should also have an idea how you want to play. I needed 2 years to create a successful non-META build just for Templar. So its not just join the game and playing successful... you really need to learn much before...
Have you ever played a game with latency equalization? Not a lot of games have it. It's rather rare. It changes much, as one would expect it to. If it was all skill (or gear), it would change nothing.
Now excuse my while I go back to my 350ms ping ESO gaming.
Narvuntien wrote: »
First you need to learn how to make damage with animationcancelling! This is nearly the most important thing in this game, but also difficult to learn. So best you can do to learn how to make a good DPS at a dummie first. Look some tuturials from experienced players and try it.
After learning it or while learning it you should also have an idea how you want to play. I needed 2 years to create a successful non-META build just for Templar. So its not just join the game and playing successful... you really need to learn much before...
man that would be super useful if it weren't for...Have you ever played a game with latency equalization? Not a lot of games have it. It's rather rare. It changes much, as one would expect it to. If it was all skill (or gear), it would change nothing.
Now excuse my while I go back to my 350ms ping ESO gaming.
350 ping, no animation cancelling for me, I will always suck.
ZoS killed my ability to even use my PVP set up this patch, as such I am not playing PVP atm.
Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
***_allard wrote: »PvP sucks! I have never liked PvP and hate the fact that game developers cater to them that do.
Good builds are a major factor to winning in pvp. That includes a lot of time theorycrafting to get the right mix of class, skills mix, skill rotation, gear, traits, glyphs, mundus stone, food/drink, team composition. And all these different choices are optimal based on different situations. There are hundreds of way to build a character. The combinations are nearly endless. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge of the game to make a strong build and many times you're rewarded by it on the battlefield. You're also rewarded by lifting builds off YouTube streamers for all the lazy people out there.
I have no doubt it helps people, but your claim was that gear and skill don't have as much to do with victories as ping.
You've done nothing to counter that claim. Mostly because you can't. There are no counter claims that stand up to scrutiny. I've been watching these same debates occur since the days of Quake Team Fortress.
It does more than just help people. The average human reaction time is a little over 200ms. The best are around 100ms. That right there is the skill level difference. 100ms, best to average. Let's leave below average out of it.
With 100ms - 300ms difference (latency) between players before we allow reaction times to influence things, there is no skill difference that can be shown to be the major influence on outcomes. People are playing from all over the world on two servers. This is what latency equalization in an online game works around.
Anyone can match the best gear sets given the time to farm them. Anyone can rote practice until near perfect. Latency however, especially in a game without equalization, you are stuck with.
You've done nothing to counter my claim.
Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
is not true... its more like this:PVP is hard, and has a very steep learning curve.
First you need to learn how to make damage with animationcancelling! This is nearly the most important thing in this game, but also difficult to learn. So best you can do to learn how to make a good DPS at a dummie first. Look some tuturials from experienced players and try it.
After learning it or while learning it you should also have an idea how you want to play. I needed 2 years to create a successful non-META build just for Templar. So its not just join the game and playing successful... you really need to learn much before...
How does that work? adding an delay on players with fast connection?Have you ever played a game with latency equalization? Not a lot of games have it. It's rather rare. It changes much, as one would expect it to. If it was all skill (or gear), it would change nothing.
Now excuse my while I go back to my 350ms ping ESO gaming.
Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Theorycrafting/picking the right gear for a decent build that synergies well with mechanics (aka the right gear for the right job) is a part of this thing you call skill......And who da hell plays the game to show of their "skills" (which is a subjective thing btw) anyway???
Warden class is godly in PVP.
Wardens lack in PVE because they are a jack of all trades. They have interesting buffs and passives, but mostly they end up being redundant in a group. However in PVP you don't have a healer giving you combat prayer or someone spamming heals at you. This means that the Wardens kit starts to really shine, given how many different buffs and skills they have access to.
Also undodgeable Bird spam, major heroism and non-ult reliant burst on a 3 second cooldown.
As far as skill in PVP goes, there is definitely a skill floor, where if you don't have a minimum level of knowledge you will just get dumpstered over and over again, regardless of your build. On the other hand after that things become a bit less defined. I can tell if someone is better or worse than me a lot of the time, but there are plenty of cases where one build will counter another to the point of the less skilled player easily winning.
Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
So what you're saying is people in Germany and Texas always win regardless of anything else?Smasherx74 wrote: »Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.
It's about having the better ping. It's rarely about anything more. Be a real community ambassador and campaign for latency equalization to be built into the server and client. Then let's talk.
If this was true then every BiS newbie would be storming Cyrodiil as a 1vX hero.Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.
@Smasherx74 I'm not disagreeing that gear is way too influential in PvP, but it's not to the degree you're suggesting. I've killed a lot of 660s fully spec'd while being naked before. Were these players trash? Oh most definitely, the skill difference was astronomical. But that's the point I'm trying to drive home. There is a lot of skill involved with PvP, but gear is extremely influential on your success.
With that said, there are abilities that take away skill from PvP, and those are ones that remove counterplay. In those specific instances the success of that skill is 100% gear dependant.
More skill than running headfirst into 20 people, dying then screaming on the forums that ZOS doesn't nerf zergs.Smasherx74 wrote: »If this was true then every BiS newbie would be storming Cyrodiil as a 1vX hero.Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.
I didn't know running around a tree spamming vigor was considered skill.
I guess the standards in ESO are just extremely low.
Smasherx74 wrote: »@Smasherx74 I'm not disagreeing that gear is way too influential in PvP, but it's not to the degree you're suggesting. I've killed a lot of 660s fully spec'd while being naked before. Were these players trash? Oh most definitely, the skill difference was astronomical. But that's the point I'm trying to drive home. There is a lot of skill involved with PvP, but gear is extremely influential on your success.
With that said, there are abilities that take away skill from PvP, and those are ones that remove counterplay. In those specific instances the success of that skill is 100% gear dependant.
Ever thought maybe those players were just lagging so much they couldn't do anything?
More skill than running headfirst into 20 people, dying then screaming on the forums that ZOS doesn't nerf zergs.Smasherx74 wrote: »If this was true then every BiS newbie would be storming Cyrodiil as a 1vX hero.Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Gear is one thing, knowing how to use that gear and your skills to their best whilst using LoS to control fights is a lot of what PvP is about, all of which is player skill.
I didn't know running around a tree spamming vigor was considered skill.
I guess the standards in ESO are just extremely low.
deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Smasherx74 wrote: »PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.
Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.
Defeatist mentality. I’ll at least agree gear matters more in this game than most others I have played but you could put some in BIS gear that has no skill and a really good player in crap gear and the better player will still win. The day everyone starts blaming gear sets on why they die is the day they should maybe reassess their own skills. Not saying you’re bad as I don’t know you and won’t judge, but I see others wit this mentality too and there is a common theme.***_allard wrote: »PvP sucks! I have never liked PvP and hate the fact that game developers cater to them that do.
I know right? All this PvP content over the last three years is just way too much! I wish there would be PvE oriented DLC for once! *end sarcasm*
Like to play PVP but always as healer (not good with tank and DPS) trying to play with it, but suck at it. Main story now playing with Warden class (also as healer) still think this class can be improved. Seems also in dungeons with warden class healing feels like buggy (any experience that?)
They tell warden class is not good when want play PVP with it. Any thoughts on that?