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A few ways ZoS can give a nod to solo/small scale players.

Cold91
Cold91
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So I know i'm no PvP expert or "elite" player, but I do really enjoy solo/small scale PvP and I remember a time when that was viable. The way mechanics work in PvP in order to be truly succesful you must run in a large group and bonus points for 3rd party voice comm. I'm not gonna bash those players, I play like that too from time to time and its rewarding. I do propose that ZoS improve the ability to solo/smallscale again.

ZoS should remove aoe Caps: I never really was sure what the point of aoe caps were to begin with. While the removal has several positives to it. Better enable outnumbered players to fight back, and reduce the amount of calculations both server and client side overall. Seems like a win win for everybody.

ZoS should re-implement dynamic ult: Perhaps the best way for outnumbered players to level the odds. The more I get hit, the more I heal, and the more players I hit, the faster my ult should raise, it makes perfect sense, and would allow me to win outnumbered. Not every time, but enough that solo/smallscale play would be viable again, and rewarding.

Neither of these options, either alone or together would overthrow the dominant meta of zerging, so any who prefer to play that way shouldn't feel he need to come here and P*ss on this post. These changes would only serve to make solo/smallscale funner, more viable, and more rewarding, while leaving large groups still the most powerful thing on the map, barring that now a few more of them will die when xv1ing, and there will be a few more wipes over all facing a small organized group.
  • Mazbt
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    inb4 someone says battlegrounds. Which encourages avoiding opponents more than actual pvp half the time. And nice ideas you have.
    Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
    Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
    - many others
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    Fantasia
  • Irylia
    Irylia
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    I like this
    Or at the very least zos could turn their dead campaigns into some of the following options:
    1. Another 30 day cp campaign (lower pop on vivec by 20% and force more players to spread
    2. Make one of the campaigns for a capped group size 4-8 (set a specific number) the. Allow groups or solo players to q and be put into a group to play in a campaign that is the size of the emp ring Inwards. Remove siege, guards, keeps and increase terrain options, bridges (small/large), runes, towns (cheydinhal), etc
    3. Make one of the campaigns, or a pvp option, a battle Royale (up to 100 players) Q solo against 100 others, q as 2 vs 50 other teams, or q as a squad vs 25 other teams. Remove the ability to crouch stealth in this game mode and push players towards a random location (pubg style) they will be eliminated by environmental damage over time if they don't enter the zone.

    Remove pay walls on pvp content
  • fastolfv_ESO
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    bgs, dynamic ult favors heavy meta even more and avoiding fighting just holding block
  • antihero727
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    Cold91 wrote: »
    So I know i'm no PvP expert or "elite" player, but I do really enjoy solo/small scale PvP and I remember a time when that was viable. The way mechanics work in PvP in order to be truly succesful you must run in a large group and bonus points for 3rd party voice comm. I'm not gonna bash those players, I play like that too from time to time and its rewarding. I do propose that ZoS improve the ability to solo/smallscale again.

    ZoS should remove aoe Caps: I never really was sure what the point of aoe caps were to begin with. While the removal has several positives to it. Better enable outnumbered players to fight back, and reduce the amount of calculations both server and client side overall. Seems like a win win for everybody.

    ZoS should re-implement dynamic ult: Perhaps the best way for outnumbered players to level the odds. The more I get hit, the more I heal, and the more players I hit, the faster my ult should raise, it makes perfect sense, and would allow me to win outnumbered. Not every time, but enough that solo/smallscale play would be viable again, and rewarding.

    Neither of these options, either alone or together would overthrow the dominant meta of zerging, so any who prefer to play that way shouldn't feel he need to come here and P*ss on this post. These changes would only serve to make solo/smallscale funner, more viable, and more rewarding, while leaving large groups still the most powerful thing on the map, barring that now a few more of them will die when xv1ing, and there will be a few more wipes over all facing a small organized group.

    Oh great someone watched a fengrush stream and has all of these "new ideas" on how to bring small scale back again. Clap clap clap and repeat slowly
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  • zyk
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    I don't think there should be a system to artificially even odds for players who are outnumbered. It's so counter-intuitive. Winning outnumbered has value because the odds are against you; in theory. The kind of imbalances we had the first year in ESO PVP are why most people left in the first place. More easily mowing down players who are stacked because they're legitimately afraid of getting mowed down isn't going to make this game more popular.

    The proper way to get players to stop stacking is to right-size competition. If players feel they're going to get wrecked in 5 seconds if they stray from the herd, then they won't stray from the herd. No one will play a game in which they don't believe they have an opportunity to be successful. The validation of a successful group shouldn't be the number of players they can fight, but rather the caliber of the opponents they defeat.

    What this game needs are objectives that are attractive for confident and competent players to fight each other for -- reducing the competitive burden elsewhere. I think everyone would benefit from this.

    Sometimes people falsely correlate the strong opinions I express here with over-confidence in my abilities. I get some pretty interesting tells. But I call myself a casual random. I think I do pretty well, but I'm past my prime and past the days of trying to be among the *very* best. At least individually. However, I was there at another point in my life and best vs best competition is, by far, the most gratifying for truly competitive players.

    With all that said, small scale is very viable right now IMO. I think there are fewer large ball groups running than ever. There are a lot of times when it feels like there are only pugs and small to medium groups running.

    Edited by zyk on September 28, 2017 9:57PM
  • Yolokin_Swagonborn
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    A few ways they can do it is REVERT all the buffs to zergs they have been putting in the game.

    Here are some examples:
    • Completely remove the gap closer snare. This is the single WORST combat mechanics change since launch.
    • Revert petty changes to class skills that reduce the ability to fight multiple players (e.g. fear affects less people now).
    • Minor or major heroism if you are taking damage from over X amount of players. (aka poor man's dynamic ulti)
    • Bring back ground oils.
    Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on September 28, 2017 10:14PM
  • zyk
    zyk
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    Lore_lai wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't think there should be a system to artificially even odds for players who are outnumbered. It's so counter-intuitive.

    But it's perfectly fine to have a system to artificially "even the odds" for groups who already have the advantage of outnumbering you? o.O

    Says who?
  • Irylia
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    zyk wrote: »
    Lore_lai wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't think there should be a system to artificially even odds for players who are outnumbered. It's so counter-intuitive.

    But it's perfectly fine to have a system to artificially "even the odds" for groups who already have the advantage of outnumbering you? o.O

    Says who?

    Aoe caps
    And healing
  • Joy_Division
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    Lore_lai wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't think there should be a system to artificially even odds for players who are outnumbered. It's so counter-intuitive.

    But it's perfectly fine to have a system to artificially "even the odds" for groups who already have the advantage of outnumbering you? o.O

    +1000!


  • Sanctum74
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    I don't think they should remove aoe caps they just need to change it so it punishes the large group instead of the solo player.

    If I'm fighting more than 6 people why should I have my damage reduced while the group I'm fighting gets no penalty and gets full damage output? Who even thought this was a good idea?

    With all of the performance problems you would think they would discourage zerging with penalties, but instead they reward zergs and punish solos and small groups.
  • Lettigall
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    Devs try to come up with "zerg busters" and every time they fail and make zergs only stronger. They completely ignore/don't care that AOE caps works in favor of zergs, it only penalizes small groups and solo players.
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  • Mazbt
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    In my view, the best thing ZOS could do to support small scale is encourage and incentivize people to spread out! We need more objectives and places to fight where small groups or solo roamers will venture out to, thus setting up more dynamic and proliferated engagements across the map. Such an amazing and varied map we got and yet all the fights happen in the same few spots and lanes. There's many ways ZOS could amend this if they just got a little bit creative. Just one random example that comes to mind is if you had like traveling alliance caravans that criss cross the map and could be plundered and protected.

    Im nowhere close to being a game developer by trade, but I could probably come up with several dozen ideas to improve small scale and the general PvP experience in an afternoon. Just as I'm sure many could. The sad reality is, none of that matters so long as the developers of this game are apathetic of and disengaged from the community and its concerns. It's a shame that these guys are letting such a wonderful project atrophy away due to neglect.

    Cyrodiil is the dynamic, living, breathing, and impassioned heart of this game. Quite fitting in context of the game's lore. It is where all the beautifully designed game systems and mechanics converge in the most fulfilling way. It is where player and community driven content thrives. It is where legends are born and die. I know this, you know this, everyone knows this. If this game is nothing more than a day-job to you guys (@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert), then by all means continue down this path and live at the complete mercy of your profit margins and corporate executives. If this project means more to you than just an occupation and you care about what makes your game truly special, then please stop ignoring us and do something before it decays into nothing.

    That deserves its own post imo. Very well written and I agree.
    Mazari the Resurrected (AD)- PVP stamplar main
    Maz the Druid - PVP group stam warden
    - many others
    ____________
    Fantasia
  • xaraan
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    People have been preaching about giving small scale pvp some love forever and it's only gotten worse as time has gone on.

    I honestly believe they don't want the gameplay to be skill based, they want the casual player/zergling to be able to just roll over stuff in their way and do their thing so they stick around and spend crowns.

    There are several easy fixes they could have done long before now to make zerging not more OP than just outnumbering people already is. Getting rid of AoE caps has been asked for a million times and should happen. I honestly think they should bump group size down to 12. Nothing in the game requires more than that and they can coordinate if they want to group up more than 12. Drop AP rewards down on resources (divide by players there) and keeps to keep the empty flipping from going on, or to keep entire 24 man zergs from benefitting for flipping empty resources all day. Don't allow players to get AP from their owns deaths when they die fighting a keep/resource that they are fighting at - they should get AP from enemies they kill, not benefit from being bad players that die and won only because they outnumbered the other side ten to one (That comes with it's own benefits).

    And definitely adding more small scale objectives like you said would be a plus. But again, if they allowed entire groups to benefit from the AP no matter the size, then it will just turn into a farm and won't be a small scale group objective. That's what has happened to resources.
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  • Rohamad_Ali
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    A few ways they can do it is REVERT all the buffs to zergs they have been putting in the game.

    Here are some examples:
    • Completely remove the gap closer snare. This is the single WORST combat mechanics change since launch.
    • Revert petty changes to class skills that reduce the ability to fight multiple players (e.g. fear affects less people now).
    • Minor or major heroism if you are taking damage from over X amount of players. (aka poor man's dynamic ulti)
    • Bring back ground oils.

  • Brrrofski
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    zyk wrote: »
    Lore_lai wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't think there should be a system to artificially even odds for players who are outnumbered. It's so counter-intuitive.

    But it's perfectly fine to have a system to artificially "even the odds" for groups who already have the advantage of outnumbering you? o.O

    Says who?

    AOE caps literally do it. The more people in your group, the less chance of taking full damage you have. It literally artificially aids the biggest groups.

    Getting rid of them isn't giving the smaller group an artificial advantage. It's making the fight fairer.
    Xbox One EU
  • Brrrofski
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    Anyway, it's beating a dead horse. They don't care.

    They won't even fix gap closing into a load screen. So don't expect any changes to anything else if they can't even be bothered to bug fix something that's been broken for over a year.
    Edited by Brrrofski on September 30, 2017 12:10AM
    Xbox One EU
  • Brrrofski
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    In fact, they're making it worse if you're Stam.

    Basically you either drop heavy, snare removal or burst heal.

    I'm fine with not being able to run 5 heavy and get dodge chance. I'm not fine with the amount of snares in the game. You'll be walking in treacle 90% of the time.
    Edited by Brrrofski on September 30, 2017 12:20AM
    Xbox One EU
  • zyk
    zyk
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    -
    Irylia wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    Lore_lai wrote: »
    zyk wrote: »
    I don't think there should be a system to artificially even odds for players who are outnumbered. It's so counter-intuitive.

    But it's perfectly fine to have a system to artificially "even the odds" for groups who already have the advantage of outnumbering you? o.O

    Says who?

    Aoe caps
    And healing

    I wasn't saying these things don't exist, I was asking who said they were okay.

    What bothers me more is the reduction of counterplay and how set-centric the game has become. I can't play against more than a few opponents without having Minor Maim applied to me most of the time via Wizard's Riposte. Earthgore is an insane get out of jail free card for large groups. Both sets need to be adjusted. There are a lot of other examples of course, but these are the two that are bothering me atm. :p

    Edited by zyk on September 30, 2017 3:05AM
  • Akinos
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    CyrusArya wrote: »
    We need more objectives and places to fight where small groups or solo roamers will venture out to, thus setting up more dynamic and proliferated engagements across the map.
    There is a few places that are out of the way from the usual keep zerg lanes, places like Cropsford, where you are much less likely to get ran over by 30 people like you would near a keep or resource. Big part of the reason I'm always at those towns, best place for solo / small scale PvP IMO.

    I agree that there does need to be more places with objectives that will get people to PvP away from keeps and resources.
    3 small towns isn't enough. There needs to be flags in every town, or something like that.
    Edited by Akinos on September 30, 2017 4:59AM
  • Malic
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    They did Battle grounds, that was the big PVP investment.

    Youre not getting anything else for a while.
  • Publius_Scipio
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    Brrrofski wrote: »
    In fact, they're making it worse if you're Stam.

    Basically you either drop heavy, snare removal or burst heal.

    I'm fine with not being able to run 5 heavy and get dodge chance. I'm not fine with the amount of snares in the game. You'll be walking in treacle 90% of the time.

    Blame templars and DKs. Every time a templar or DK so much as sneezes or farts, everyone around them is snared. But the proposed change is exciting because it boosts the value of playing in medium armor in the age of heavy armor meta, and will force some choices to be made on players. Versus how it is now where players just pick all the "best" stuff off the shelf to become a superhero.
  • Beardimus
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    BG should be what you are after, but i fear even that is going to get rekt with CP coming in, more never die builds with a whole team of 4 whaling on them.

    Xbox EU there is still some small scale about. Imp City, quitter servers in general. But yeah if you want to farm AP you need a large group and roll that way.

    They have their reasons for AOE caps. 'we' see it from our side but they obviously have their reason. And clearly they can offer their ruleset by campaign so perhaps if they turned it off for one of them at least it could be tested.

    Who knows. Small scale is cool, but unsure if your suggestions will A get listend too or B be the right answer
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  • Xsorus
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    Cap groups at 8
  • idk
    idk
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    AoE is not capped iirc, unles they reverted that change. Just less damage after 6 targets then again at a higher number. Again, iirc.

    Dynamic ult was not healthy for the game. We build pretty much solely for ult generation. The change made, 1.6 I think, made us consider builds and gearing in a much better light.

    There are players that play solo and small group with the current design. It takes playing smarter than going with a large group.
  • zyk
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    The AE Cap was changed in 2.7:
    Targets 1 – 6: 100% damage taken with all secondary effects applied.
    Targets 7 – 24: 75% damage taken with no secondary effects applied (formerly 50% damage taken).
    Targets 25 – 60: 50% damage taken with no secondary effects applied (formerly 25% damage taken).

    That's reasonable IMO, but I don't have a strong opinion either way.
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