[ZOS] Can we get a utility for DW? My case for changes

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

I was testing a DW Sheer Venom build just to find out that Steel Tornado is not an execute and I was this close to flipping my desk.

Can we get a strong PvP utility for DW?
It doesn't have an execute
It doesn't have a gap closer (Flying Blade doesn't isn't a gap closer, it's a ranged ability that slows. If you don't 'teleport' on the target it's not a Gap Closer)
It doesn't have a CC.
In PvP the only unique and useful skills from DW are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak.

Why is it that the strongest hitting spammable is a throwing dagger? Is DW a meele weapon or a Marksmans weapon?
Why not make that useless Whirling Blades morph an Execution skill? It doesn't have to get it's damage output increased, but it can at least function with features that enhance Executions.
What's the logic behind Dots Twin Slashes/Blade Cloak and DW?
I'm I gona tank the enemy till he bleeds to death? With 2 daggers' '?
What's with shield holders charging effortlessly (gap close) but good luck catching up to a fleeing enemy even If your weapons are for mobile fighters?

Any stamina class can put a lot more pressure with the defensive weapon 1h/S since
it has a gap closer
it has hard CC
it adds debuffs
it gets boosted dps thanks to Animation Cancelling Bash every 0.8 seconds
it offers piece of mind knowing that you can easily go on defense and survive thanks to the shield

than with the supposedly aggressive weapon DW. Isn't DW the ruffians weapon? The killers? The swordmasters?

1h/S enemies make me more nervous than DWielders.

2h is ok even though it has too many effects under it's belt

There are no real archer builds in the game so.. buff bow.

But seriously. Can we make DW more threatening???
@Zos_RichLambert
@Zos_GinaBruno

Solariken · July 2017

I do think it's hilarious that dw gets a damage bonus against CC'd targets but doesn't have a CC available in the skill line. Derp.

Buff Whirling Blades for sure. It really suffers as an AOE due to its small radius. Maybe have it increase the execute scaling by a greater percentage and/or make it deal more damage versus bleeding targets.

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Solariken wrote: »

I do think it's hilarious that dw gets a damage bonus against CC'd targets but doesn't have a CC available in the skill line. Derp.

Buff Whirling Blades for sure. It really suffers as an AOE due to its small radius. Maybe have it increase the execute scaling by a greater percentage and/or make it deal more damage versus bleeding targets.

It's not even an Execute though. Sure it gets a measly double damage, but it's not even an execute.

DW, which should represent a Skilled warrior (skilled. Abilities)
is being treated as a stats weapon and nothing else.
Passives and bonus slot.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

Gonna answer this when i get home. Will go into a lot of detail.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Can we get a strong PvP utility for DW?
It doesn't have an execute
It doesn't have a gap closer
It doesn't have a CC.
In PvP the only unique and useful skills from DW are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak.

You are correct and wrong at the same time.

Duel-Wield offers snares and major expedition in its kit which allows you to stay in range of your opponent.
Every Duel-Wield ability passively executes at 25% health or lower increasing their damage by 20%
Every Duel-Wield ability + light / heavy attack does more damage to rooted/stunned/silenced/disoriented enemies by 15%.
Duel-Wield is granted a second enchant (Utility)

Every class has a form of closing the gap between you and your opponent. DK/Chains, Templar/Toppling Charge, Nightblade/Ambush, Sorc/Streak. Now before anyone says chains/toppling charge is useless, you can still use crit rush on 2h back bar considering all duel-wield builds still use rally for heals and major brutality. It's actually encouraged to do so with a maelstrom two-hander since you have room for all 5/5/2 dw/2h builds.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Why is it that the strongest hitting spammable is a throwing dagger? Is DW a meele weapon or a Marksmans weapon?

Why not make that useless Whirling Blades morph an Execution skill? It doesn't have to get it's damage output increased, but it can at least function with features that enhance Executions.

What's the logic behind Dots Twin Slashes/Blade Cloak and DW?

Am i gonna tank the enemy till he bleeds to death? With 2 daggers?

Steel Tornado actually deals the most damage in 1 single instance while a target is under 25% health. If a target is stunned while at 25% health, Steel Tornado will be boosted by 140% damage. Dealing more damage then my Nightblade's Surprise attack!
Steel Tornado is an execute. Sheer Venom actually proc's on this morph. If it doesn't you might want to send in a bug report. Deltia did a video a long time ago when Imperial City came out and tested this set with Duel-Wield abilities. It only proc's on one person but was still able to.
Duel-Wield is actually more suited to be a PvE weapon. So Flurry/Blood Craze and even Hidden Blade are better suited for that envoirment compared to the current PvP meta's.
Duel-Wield is actually really strong this coming back with the Infused trait. You can actually apply a lot of pressure with just your enchants. With Infused they will proc every 2 seconds (with an elemental enchant) while using weapon class abilities or light and heavy attacks. Since you have 2 enchants they will be procing basically every 1 second. DEATH BY 1000 CUTS!

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Any stamina class can put a lot more pressure with the defensive weapon 1h/S since
it has a gap closer
it has hard CC
it adds debuffs
it gets boosted dps thanks to Animation Cancelling Bash every 0.8 seconds
it offers piece of mind knowing that you can easily go on defense and survive thanks to the shield
than with the supposedly aggressive weapon DW. Isn't DW the ruffians weapon? The killers? The swordmasters?

Duel-Wield in pvp is a very niche weapon for stamina now-a-days. It takes a very smart player to utilise the weapon correctly. You need to play to your strengths.

The most effective Duel-Wield class in game for pvp in my opinion is the Nightblade. Due to class based execute, gap closer and unblockable cc (fear), you get a lot of what duel-wield lacks.

Now i'll go into what i think makes Duel-Wield strong and how to make it more balanced in pvp compared to the other weapon classes. I've been playing a Duel-Wield/2-hander stamina nightblade build exclusively for 2-3 years now in pvp.

"Current" Duel-Wield Pros:

Two Enchants: This provides a lot of pressure but also burst within a quick gank combo. It's pretty underestimated.
Quick Cloak: One of the few forms of AoE damage reduction and major expedition in the game. The damage it deals is very low but it also proc's your mainhand enchant. If you attacked before it went off cool-down, usually blade cloak will proc it for you.
5/5/2 builds: Duel Wield gives you the ability to use 2 5 piece sets and a monster set easily. This is what makes Duel-Wield unique and very versatile. Many people argue literally every week trying to steal this uniqueness for 2h/bow/staff builds when they still can build 5/5/2 builds... they just dont have the flexibility of sets compared to duel-wield and are forced into proc/duration based sets to do it effectively (magicka can use Lich. stamina can use clever alchemist, eternal hunt, armour master, senche, etc).

"Current" Duel-Wield Cons:

As DW/2H you usually don't get killing blows with 2hander which is a huge loss of stamina regen because of 2h passive.
As DW/2H you don't get major expedition like bow for simply rolling due to bow passive.
As DW/2H you don't get very good executes compared to 2h executioner and bow poison injection. I'd argue Poison Injection's execute phase should scale like executioner instead of instant 100% bonus against under 50% health targets (that's for another time though).
No Major Expedition if you don't slot Quick Cloak.
Quick Cloak Major Expedition is too short at 5 seconds.

Here's some idea's on how i would buff Duel-Wield for pvp:

Buff Quick Cloak Major Expedition to entire duration of ability.
Make all Duel Wield abilities/light+heavy attacks execute harder under 25% health. (Then no need for execute)
Make Steel Tornado scale like proxi detonation so stamina users have a zerg buster.
Make Hidden Blade silence enemies who are not snared.

Ladislao · July 2017

Thanks god you didn't said it is useless crap or some kind of

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It doesn't have an execute

It has. Whirlwind and Slaughter.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It doesn't have a gap closer (Flying Blade doesn't isn't a gap closer, it's a ranged ability that slows. If you don't 'teleport' on the target it's not a Gap Closer)

Bow and staves haven't gap closers too. Not every type of weapons should have everything. Otherwise it ceases to be unique.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It doesn't have a CC.

Read above.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

In PvP the only unique and useful skills from DW are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak.

Don't forget aoe execute, range ability and good set of passive abilities. Yes, all these are also useful options.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Why is it that the strongest hitting spammable is a throwing dagger? Is DW a meele weapon or a Marksmans weapon?
Why not make that useless Whirling Blades morph an Execution skill? It doesn't have to get it's damage output increased, but it can at least function with features that enhance Executions.
What's the logic behind Dots Twin Slashes/Blade Cloak and DW?
I'm I gona tank the enemy till he bleeds to death? With 2 daggers' '?
What's with shield holders charging effortlessly (gap close) but good luck catching up to a fleeing enemy even If your weapons are for mobile fighters?

These questions concern design in general. They can be attributed to everything. This is demagogy.

Well, the answers to the rest of the post will be similar, so I'll just sum up.

DW is currently in a good state. DW is powerful type of weapons with many advantages (AOE execute, DOTs, healing, passives, 2-pieces). There are lots of PVE and PVP builds based on DW. So I see no reason to change it in any way ASAP. Maybe some minor changes in the next patch or later. Namely, when there are real reasons for buff/nerf it.

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Ladislao wrote: »

Thanks god you didn't said it is useless crap or some kind of

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It doesn't have an execute

It has. Whirlwind and Slaughter.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It doesn't have a gap closer (Flying Blade doesn't isn't a gap closer, it's a ranged ability that slows. If you don't 'teleport' on the target it's not a Gap Closer)

Bow and staves haven't gap closers too. Not every type of weapons should have everything. Otherwise it ceases to be unique.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

It doesn't have a CC.

Read above.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

In PvP the only unique and useful skills from DW are Twin Slashes and Blade Cloak.

Don't forget aoe execute, range ability and good set of passive abilities. Yes, all these are also useful options.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Why is it that the strongest hitting spammable is a throwing dagger? Is DW a meele weapon or a Marksmans weapon?
Why not make that useless Whirling Blades morph an Execution skill? It doesn't have to get it's damage output increased, but it can at least function with features that enhance Executions.
What's the logic behind Dots Twin Slashes/Blade Cloak and DW?
I'm I gona tank the enemy till he bleeds to death? With 2 daggers' '?
What's with shield holders charging effortlessly (gap close) but good luck catching up to a fleeing enemy even If your weapons are for mobile fighters?

These questions concern design in general. They can be attributed to everything. This is demagogy.
Well, the answers to the rest of the post will be similar, so I'll just sum up.

DW is currently in a good state. DW is powerful type of weapons with many advantages (AOE execute, DOTs, healing, passives, 2-pieces). There are lots of PVE and PVP builds based on DW. So I see no reason to change it in any way ASAP. Maybe some minor changes in the next patch or later. Namely, when there are real reasons for buff/nerf it.

You just listed the active and passive abilities of DW. That's all you did.
Btw. Get 5p Sheer Venom. Proc the poison dmg with DW and then come tell me it has an execute.
Useless post.
90% Of DW abilities don't get slotted in PvP. That's my point. What's yours? That any changes to this skill line will make it overperforming?
That it will erase 1h/S and 2h from stamina builds if it gets a utility? What's your input? Status quo again? It needs a major change. Not minor stats changes if and when.

DDuke · July 2017

DW isn't bad, but it's quite underpowered compared to 2H in PvP.

The skills themselves aren't bad (Shrouded Daggers is actually one of the best PvP skills in game, not many people realize this), but passives are *very* underwhelming compared to 2H, as most of them affect DW skills only.

Here's a quick comparison between the passives:
2H
Forceful - always useful
Heavy Weapons - always useful
Balanced Blade - only affects 2H
Follow Up - always useful
Battle Rush - always useful

DW
Slaughter - only affects DW
Dual Wield Expert - always useful
Controlled Fury - only affects DW
Ruffian - only affects DW
Twin Blade And Blunt - always useful

So, as you can see, 2H has 4 passives which are useful when you're using mostly class abilities, while DW has only 2.

With Nirnhoned trait, 2H will also get you 40 more weapon damage (compared to Nirnhoned/Sharpened DW).

Downside of 2H is that you'll have one set bonus less, so if that set bonus were weapon damage for instance, that'd mean you "lose" 89 weapon dmg by slotting 2H, but gain two useful passives.

I think ZOS should consider making some of the DW passives affect all skills, rather than just DW ones - though it might be hard to balance with PvE.

The most efficient change I think would be making Ruffian affect all skills, as bosses and most trial mobs can't be CC'd anyway - but I wonder if giving DW more burst dmg is necessary.

Perhaps one of the passives could be given an additional healing/sustain related bonus?

Just some thoughts.

I'd also love to see Rally as a Fighters Guild skill, so stamina builds aren't pigeonholed into slotting 2H for the only available instant heal (Stam Wardens are an exception).

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

DW is being used as a stats weapon for every stamina build.
Which class abilities would you remove to add DW?
Why would you go DW/BOW instead of 2h+Bow or 1h/s+ Bow?
Why would you go DW+1h/S over 2h+1h/S?
Why would you go DW+1h/s over front back 1h/s?
Only to use its 2 item bonus and passive dmg boost. Nothing else.
Do you think that a weapon like that should be used in such a way?

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

DDuke wrote: »

DW isn't bad, but it's quite underpowered compared to 2H in PvP.

The skills themselves aren't bad (Shrouded Daggers is actually one of the best PvP skills in game, not many people realize this), but passives are *very* underwhelming compared to 2H, as most of them affect DW skills only.

Here's a quick comparison between the passives:
2H
Forceful - always useful
Heavy Weapons - always useful
Balanced Blade - only affects 2H
Follow Up - always useful
Battle Rush - always useful

DW
Slaughter - only affects DW
Dual Wield Expert - always useful
Controlled Fury - only affects DW
Ruffian - only affects DW
Twin Blade And Blunt - always useful

So, as you can see, 2H has 4 passives which are useful when you're using mostly class abilities, while DW has only 2.

With Nirnhoned trait, 2H will also get you 40 more weapon damage (compared to Nirnhoned/Sharpened DW).

Downside of 2H is that you'll have one set bonus less, so if that set bonus were weapon damage for instance, that'd mean you "lose" 89 weapon dmg by slotting 2H, but gain two useful passives.

I think ZOS should consider making some of the DW passives affect all skills, rather than just DW ones - though it might be hard to balance with PvE.

The most efficient change I think would be making Ruffian affect all skills, as bosses and most trial mobs can't be CC'd anyway - but I wonder if giving DW more burst dmg is necessary.

Perhaps one of the passives could be given an additional healing/sustain related bonus?

Just some thoughts.

I'd also love to see Rally as a Fighters Guild skill, so stamina builds aren't pigeonholed into slotting 2H for the only available instant heal (Stam Wardens are an exception).

This guy gets it. But I personally I want to see a new active DW ability, instead of working on Stats.
FFS proc armors are being used to deal damage/apply effects and DW is being used for its stats. Isn't this wrong?

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

For survivability both 2h and 1h/s outclass DW. Big deal with the DW heal and the Dots.
In burst 2h is first.
In pressure and utilities 1h/s outperforms DW big time
What role does DW play in PvP?
Stats to some stamNBs and some stamSorcs? Again. DW is being treated as an armor piece.

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Flying dagger is such a go-to skill when in combat that I hate it. Seriously if it wasn't for Maj Brutality I wouldn't slot it. If I wanted range I would use a Bow, not throw knives.
Bursting time? As if ima use Flurry. The enemy can roll dodge/block before the strong hit. Better throw a dagger...

Flying dagger should have its damage increased at maximum distance and decreased at close range.
The AoE should be a 25-30% execution with 100% dmg increase and WORK just like the other executions do (Sheer Venom yo..).

Twin Slashes should have a shorter bleed duration with stronger bleed damage. Make it more DWlder. It's an agro weapon for Petes sake. I don't have a shield to protect me. I'm not a tank. By the time the enemy takes the full Dot dmg, he killed me.
Equip a shield+1h you'll say?? Then why the hell don't I equip Rally instead of Twin Slashes anyways???

Come on ZOS. Make DW more aggro.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Flying dagger is such a go-to skill when in combat that I hate it. Seriously if it wasn't for Maj Brutality I wouldn't slot it. If I wanted range I would use a Bow, not throw knives.
Bursting time? As if ima use Flurry. The enemy can roll dodge/block before the strong hit. Better throw a dagger...

Flying dagger should have its damage increased at maximum distance and decreased at close range.

The AoE should be a 25-30% execution with 100% dmg increase and WORK just like the other executions do (Sheer Venom yo..).

Twin Slashes should have a shorter bleed duration with stronger bleed damage. Make it more DWlder. It's an agro weapon for Petes sake. I don't have a shield to protect me. I'm not a tank. By the time the enemy takes the full Dot dmg, he killed me.
Equip a shield+1h you'll say?? Then why the hell don't I equip Rally instead of Twin Slashes anyways???

Come on ZOS. Make DW more aggro.

Honestly i think it should be the opposite. Throwing a dagger should have a stronger impact in close range compared to far away.

Also your starting to sound whiny with your attempts to get the developers to cater to your needs about sheer venom.

leepalmer95 · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

DW is being used as a stats weapon for every stamina build.
Which class abilities would you remove to add DW?
Why would you go DW/BOW instead of 2h+Bow or 1h/s+ Bow?
Why would you go DW+1h/S over 2h+1h/S?
Why would you go DW+1h/s over front back 1h/s?
Only to use its 2 item bonus and passive dmg boost. Nothing else.
Do you think that a weapon like that should be used in such a way?

Your threads always make me laugh.

Ladislao · July 2017

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

You just listed the active and passive abilities of DW. That's all you did.
Btw. Get 5p Sheer Venom. Proc the poison dmg with DW and then come tell me it has an execute.
Useless post.
90% Of DW abilities don't get slotted in PvP. That's my point. What's yours? That any changes to this skill line will make it overperforming?
That it will erase 1h/S and 2h from stamina builds if it gets a utility? What's your input? Status quo again? It needs a major change. Not minor stats changes if and when.

I don't want to bother with quoting again, so I'll just answer every line

1) Yes, I did it. Should I have described in detail all the possibilities of each skill? I don't think so.
2) It should be proced (at least it worked in IC patch). Btw execute abilities are all skills that say "deals X% more damage while below Y health". You should understand this right away.
3)

4) I use at least four DW abilities in my builds. I don't use Lacerate (very niche ability which can be purged but it's good in duels) and Hidden Blade (because usually I have bow or gap closer so just don't need it but it's a good option). The rest of the abilities are good. Sometimes I'm even afraid to find Whirlwind and Blade Cloak nerfs in patch notes

5) I mean there is no reason to buff weapon just because it will not erase another weapons. It just sounds like "I play sorcerer so you should buff sorcerer!". As I said DW is currently in a good state with its purpose.

In your first post you mentioned bows. They need to be updated much more. Although I think that their problem in a large number of counterplays. But this is another topic for discussion

idk · July 2017

The first point is plain wrong. Check out the passives. Also, DW has the only AoE execute. Even if the game doesn't classify it as such it does more damage to low health targets.

As for the rest of the points, we certainly don't need both DW and 2H do not need to be identical which seems to be what OP is looking for. Diversity is grand.

Besides, the game isn't only about PvP. DW doesn't need to be ruined to make it function like the 2H as OP is desiring.