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Revenge Mode For The Outnumbered

Irylia
Irylia
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Idea further down if you don't like reading

I wasn't around when dynamic ult existed and this may not be the way to approach being outnumbered, but it's an idea that I hope will spark some discussion. As many have noticed players have become much harder to kill via cp increase/changes, gear options, stacking health with heavy + sb, effectiveness of multiple healers, etc. then add all the constant slows/snares/poisons/procs. My focus is how can there be a "tool" provided that can assist the outnumbered player(S) without being too effective.
Sure 1 person should technically die to 5 others but that 1 player, if better, should be rewarded for being better and punishing poor play/mechanics. You could argue the player can already do that, yes he/she can, but with the introduction of all these new changes as aforementioned (sets, SA, cp) it continues to empower the many.

IDEA:
Ult percent gain increases based on increasing enemies on you.

Rough example:
3 enemies 5%
5 enemies 10%
8 enemies 15%.
Capping there but still giving you ult gen increase to assist your struggle. It would be diminished based on same faction players around you. After more than 4 around you the ult gen increase would be nullified for any player of that faction.

Maybe a 5x set that rewards you for being outnumbered, regen/cost reduction alleviations, resistances, etc. just some ideas to generate conversation.

Not saying this is the correct path but I wanted discussion more than anything.
Edited by Irylia on June 29, 2017 3:44PM
  • kuro-dono
    kuro-dono
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    that just makes the stronger even stronger, we dont need that in eso where procblades *** ppl with bursts, sorcs shield stacking kill *** loads while nobody can hurt them because of their shield, and aoe choo choos would become even more unkillable.

    your reward should be the satisfaction of being able to handle such an underdog situation.
    Edited by kuro-dono on June 29, 2017 3:48PM
  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    I remember dynamic ult, you could practically spam em. I miss it for pve lol

    You're gonna get a lot of flack from the "4 of us couldn't kill the DK" peeps
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • casparian
    casparian
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    It's an interesting idea. Sounds like a massive buff to bomblades.

    I'm intrigued by the idea of a dynamic buff/debuff system based on the value of X in 1vX. But I worry that any such system which focuses on buffing the 1 in such situations would lead to too many exploitative situations (like the aforementioned bomblade, who would essentially get to throw out two ults in a row in the right situation). Instead of buffing the 1, it might work better to debuff the X -- maybe give them decreased ult gen or a scaling execute-ability debuff.
    Former 7-day PVP campaign regular, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamsorc/stamplar/mageblade. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.
  • Minno
    Minno
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    I don't think anything can be done to the abilities or skills that can soften outnumbered situations.

    I think it comes down to wheeler and the world building team to create a different version of cyro that provides unique approtunities to create situations that make PvP fun.

    The map is currently scaled to accommodate launch-size populations. This is problematic in that if you want consistent PvP action you go where you expect players to be. Due to emp keep rulings, the action is always at the inner rings therefore the most people will be there.

    There is no incentive to promote smaller amounts of combat situations, from an environment standpoint but they have the locations to do that (empty towns, little forts, etc.). How do we get cyro to increase the flow of combat without creating zerg-only scenarios?

    I think they need to do pick one/some of the following:
    - reduce the map size. Players will not spend 5 minutes riding too a less Zerg/laggy location if they know there's a Battle they can fight via a quick transit +1 minute horse ride.
    - make keeps less attractive and increase other objectives that players can easily get to. We can have entire thread on this discussion, but ultimately players will still go to inner ring keeps/outposts because it's easy to rez and expect players to be at.
    - introduce randomized spawn points. I know this isn't very lore friendly, but there is strength to this. While chaoic, having a map of 60v60v60 the size of three keeps and 3 outposts without doors with this rez setting will keep the battles flowing in random areas. This means teams work to create fonts, flank lines, and move to get kills or capture a mobile flag/scroll.

    Just my thoughts.
  • Barbaran
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    that woukd take some serious coding (i would imagine).
    how do you balance players "on you" to just players around you.
    could you imagine a 15%+ bonus to bomb blades at keeps or at alessia bridge, some of these bombers already have an ista kill bomb build.
    and then theres the procs. ive already seen friends tooltip with 8k viper and 20k selene ( 4 and 10 in cyrodiil) thats already enough.
    i think the game just needs more tweeking in general, they started down the right path but theres a reason most of cyrodiil are proc blades this patch
    Edited by Barbaran on June 29, 2017 5:13PM
  • BaByDontHurtMe
    BaByDontHurtMe
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    I would be in favor of it being a 5th set bonus that way people couldn't complain too much since you are losing another set bonus in exchange for more dynamic ult regen in PVE and PVP.

    If it were a set (preferably overland for jewelry options but would settle for a crafted set) it would also be easier to nerf or buff a set percentage then something that would change the whole game mechanic back to dynamic ult regen.

    I personally am in favor of bringing back dynamic ult regen because I love the ultimate spam and my pepe fantasizes about ulti regen in a small 4 man DK only group (I see you BG....) but I would be the first to admit that the way the game is, whether we like it or not, people are attracted to and put their money in the current build and current direction of ESO. Their 10 million accounts (yes I know split between consoles and PC and multi accounts) were created because people liked what they saw and where the game was going despite most of us here not liking certain changes.

    This is why I think if this has any shot of materializing if it is a future armor set. Hope it happens, would be nice.
  • Takes-No-Prisoner
    Takes-No-Prisoner
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    "Revenge Mode For The Outnumbered"

    Title reminds me of 'revenge meter' or Ultra's from Street Fighter 4. Where you have a meter bar that fills based on hits taken. Then when you're in a pinch, you do a input command to execute it, most ultra's were powerful enough where they can balance out the fight again. They also could be combo'ed into.

    I would be for this--with stipulations of course. As to what those could be? I'd need to ponder about the topic a bit more.
    Edited by Takes-No-Prisoner on June 29, 2017 5:42PM
  • DeadlyRecluse
    DeadlyRecluse
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    This sounds like a server calculation nightmare.

    Additionally, I generally dislike mechanics that punish or reward players based on numbers (either outnumbering or outnumbered)--they tend to be easy to cheese.
    Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub
  • Irylia
    Irylia
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    casparian wrote: »
    It's an interesting idea. Sounds like a massive buff to bomblades.

    I'm intrigued by the idea of a dynamic buff/debuff system based on the value of X in 1vX. But I worry that any such system which focuses on buffing the 1 in such situations would lead to too many exploitative situations (like the aforementioned bomblade, who would essentially get to throw out two ults in a row in the right situation). Instead of buffing the 1, it might work better to debuff the X -- maybe give them decreased ult gen or a scaling execute-ability debuff.

    That could be a better way of working around it. Heals less effective to players not in your group, less ult gen the larger your group is. Thanks for the input
    Minno wrote: »
    I don't think anything can be done to the abilities or skills that can soften outnumbered situations.

    I think it comes down to wheeler and the world building team to create a different version of cyro that provides unique approtunities to create situations that make PvP fun.

    The map is currently scaled to accommodate launch-size populations. This is problematic in that if you want consistent PvP action you go where you expect players to be. Due to emp keep rulings, the action is always at the inner rings therefore the most people will be there.

    There is no incentive to promote smaller amounts of combat situations, from an environment standpoint but they have the locations to do that (empty towns, little forts, etc.). How do we get cyro to increase the flow of combat without creating zerg-only scenarios?

    I think they need to do pick one/some of the following:
    - reduce the map size. Players will not spend 5 minutes riding too a less Zerg/laggy location if they know there's a Battle they can fight via a quick transit +1 minute horse ride.
    - make keeps less attractive and increase other objectives that players can easily get to. We can have entire thread on this discussion, but ultimately players will still go to inner ring keeps/outposts because it's easy to rez and expect players to be at.
    - introduce randomized spawn points. I know this isn't very lore friendly, but there is strength to this. While chaoic, having a map of 60v60v60 the size of three keeps and 3 outposts without doors with this rez setting will keep the battles flowing in random areas. This means teams work to create fonts, flank lines, and move to get kills or capture a mobile flag/scroll.

    Just my thoughts.

    I do think minimizing the map and turning haderus into that small scale campaign could be the way to go. Take areas like cheydinhal or other unique and variety terrain options and placing them as the focal point for pvp. Removing keeps, guards, siege and reducing group size.

    Maybe even no factions but instead every group for themselves so as to promote more opportunities of pvp.

    Random spawn King of the hill locations (3) could also generate points of interest for players to fight at or control. Every 20 minutes the location could move to another area and groups/guilds would compete to control these locations. Perhaps on the map you would be able to see which guild is claiming the "flag" and if they can control it up until reset they gain points that show up on a leaderboard.

    Group size 4 With 20 teams or slightly larger groups and less total teams.

    Once again ideas.

    Another alternative to spreading people out on the map was scrapping current quest boards and making them
    1. Escort convoy A to B
    -escort Dc convoy from brindle to drakelowe. Ex
    2. Hold "location" for x minutes
    -control abandoned tower/runes in enemy territory Ex
    3. Quest board to accept a mission to prevent the other 2 factions from completing their quest.

    Vary group size for different quests and if more than the expected amount of any faction show up to the quest "icon" (flag/convoy) it fails the faction who brought more players.

    So you could have 10 Dc groups out on quests 6 ad teams questing and 7 ep groups. And any other additional teams have the ability to accept the quest to stop any said group from the other 2 factions. Both an ad and ep group could accept the same mission to prevent the Dc team and whichever faction returns victorious earns their faction a small bonus

    Bonus:
    Your siege merchant at decided keep has reduced costs, stronger walls, or stronger guards for x minutes. Or the flip side is if you prevent an enemy from completing their quest you could increase one of their keeps siege cost, reduce wall hp, guard strength for x minutes.

    The reward could be scaled based on how many teams accepted the quest and or to prevent the quest. (1 team per faction)

    Each quest has a 5 minute prep time where it allows an enemy faction to see and choose to engage in it.

    Most importantly use the cyro terrain that is largely uninhabited/contested (the areas outside emp ring)





    Edited by Irylia on June 29, 2017 7:47PM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Irylia wrote: »
    casparian wrote: »
    It's an interesting idea. Sounds like a massive buff to bomblades.

    I'm intrigued by the idea of a dynamic buff/debuff system based on the value of X in 1vX. But I worry that any such system which focuses on buffing the 1 in such situations would lead to too many exploitative situations (like the aforementioned bomblade, who would essentially get to throw out two ults in a row in the right situation). Instead of buffing the 1, it might work better to debuff the X -- maybe give them decreased ult gen or a scaling execute-ability debuff.

    That could be a better way of working around it. Heals less effective to players not in your group, less ult gen the larger your group is. Thanks for the input
    Minno wrote: »
    I don't think anything can be done to the abilities or skills that can soften outnumbered situations.

    I think it comes down to wheeler and the world building team to create a different version of cyro that provides unique approtunities to create situations that make PvP fun.

    The map is currently scaled to accommodate launch-size populations. This is problematic in that if you want consistent PvP action you go where you expect players to be. Due to emp keep rulings, the action is always at the inner rings therefore the most people will be there.

    There is no incentive to promote smaller amounts of combat situations, from an environment standpoint but they have the locations to do that (empty towns, little forts, etc.). How do we get cyro to increase the flow of combat without creating zerg-only scenarios?

    I think they need to do pick one/some of the following:
    - reduce the map size. Players will not spend 5 minutes riding too a less Zerg/laggy location if they know there's a Battle they can fight via a quick transit +1 minute horse ride.
    - make keeps less attractive and increase other objectives that players can easily get to. We can have entire thread on this discussion, but ultimately players will still go to inner ring keeps/outposts because it's easy to rez and expect players to be at.
    - introduce randomized spawn points. I know this isn't very lore friendly, but there is strength to this. While chaoic, having a map of 60v60v60 the size of three keeps and 3 outposts without doors with this rez setting will keep the battles flowing in random areas. This means teams work to create fonts, flank lines, and move to get kills or capture a mobile flag/scroll.

    Just my thoughts.

    I do think minimizing the map and turning haderus into that small scale campaign could be the way to go. Take areas like cheydinhal or other unique and variety terrain options and placing them as the focal point for pvp. Removing keeps, guards, siege and reducing group size.

    Maybe even no factions but instead every group for themselves so as to promote more opportunities of pvp.

    Random spawn King of the hill locations (3) could also generate points of interest for players to fight at or control. Every 20 minutes the location could move to another area and groups/guilds would compete to control these locations. Perhaps on the map you would be able to see which guild is claiming the "flag" and if they can control it up until reset they gain points that show up on a leaderboard.


    Group size 4 With 20 teams or slightly larger groups and less total teams.

    Once again ideas.

    Another alternative to spreading people out on the map was scrapping current quest boards and making them
    1. Escort convoy A to B
    -escort Dc convoy from brindle to drakelowe. Ex
    2. Hold "location" for x minutes
    -control abandoned tower/runes in enemy territory Ex
    3. Quest board to accept a mission to prevent the other 2 factions from completing their quest.

    Vary group size for different quests and if more than the expected amount of any faction show up to the quest "icon" (flag/convoy) it fails the faction who brought more players.

    So you could have 10 Dc groups out on quests 6 ad teams questing and 7 ep groups. And any other additional teams have the ability to accept the quest to stop any said group from the other 2 factions. Both an ad and ep group could accept the same mission to prevent the Dc team and whichever faction returns victorious earns their faction a small bonus

    Bonus:
    Your siege merchant at decided keep has reduced costs, stronger walls, or stronger guards for x minutes. Or the flip side is if you prevent an enemy from completing their quest you could increase one of their keeps siege cost, reduce wall hp, guard strength for x minutes.

    The reward could be scaled based on how many teams accepted the quest and or to prevent the quest. (1 team per faction)

    Each quest has a 5 minute prep time where it allows an enemy faction to see and choose to engage in it.

    Most importantly use the cyro terrain that is largely uninhabited or used

    That is the server+ruleset, I would like to play the most on.

    One problem with some quest related incentives is that they have to be 100% PvP related and transferable across the entirety of cyro. That's why the kill player quests is the most used; you get AP, a short term kill counter, and can be used anywhere the enemy is. If it is tied to a specific place, it must reside close to a transit or else players will not go there unless the enemy is predictably in the area.

    I love king of the hill style gameplay. With a reduced slate (think of the distance of Glade to rayles; that would make the best 60v60v60 PvP in a 3 keep diameter) there would always be combat and it might be comparable to how PvP was at launch where you could step out of Glade and find people to fight.
  • gibous
    gibous
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    @Irylia about a year ago I made a thread where I approached this from the other side, which was suggesting to debuff larger groups rather than buff those that are outnumbered. So I get where you're coming from 100% - the most fun you can have in PvP is winning when the odds are against you, whether you're small scaling or in a raid. It just doesn't seem like the devs are interested in any such mechanics.

    The additional game mode ideas are what I find most interesting here, because if any of them were implemented and they successfully created consistent and somewhat fair fights, it would matter a lot less if you died outnumbered. The problem now is that outnumbered deaths sting because it can take up to an hour or two just to find one decent battle.

    Battlegrounds have ended up as their own weird thing. They certainly can be fun for what they are, but they don't scratch that small scale open world itch. It'd be great to have additional PvP objectives spread around Cyrodiil and I'm shocked it hasn't already been done this far into the game's life with the laughable exception of the town flags.
    Reddington James — Magsorc & Magplar (NA PC)
  • MalakithAlamahdi
    MalakithAlamahdi
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    This was pretty much what DK's had before 1.6, and it made them almost unkillable when they were outnumbered. I like the idea but I got no idea how they could implement this in a working and balanced way.
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    Could just bring a mild dynamic ult gen back.

    Currently you get 3 ult/s base gen.

    Could give you an extra 1- 1.5 ult/s if your hit by 2 more other players.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Just return dynamic ulti, but fix the *** thing. More hits, more ulti, not too much though. Simple.

    Or have enrage mode. The more people hit you, the stronger your abilities get, up to like 10% so its not broken.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • DemonDruaga
    DemonDruaga
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    Aoe cap..
    20vs6

    The six won't do 100% of their dmg against the 20 man pug dummies.
    But everyone in the 20 man group will do 100% against the already at a disadventage beeing 6 man group.
    I think that sucks.
    Ardor // Dunkelsicht // Pakt
  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    I like to think of incentives for outnumbered in the same way that people advocate for catch-up mechanics. If you are lower CP (and thus disadvantaged if compared to another player), you are given a helpful mechanic that aids in catching up to others around you (and it scales too!).

    If you are outnumbered, it would make sense to provide a mechanic of some sort that assists the disadvantaged. It doesn't have to be ultimate generation (as that benefits a certain playstyle and classes better than others as we've seen in the past), but it could be anything such as receiving an improved Battle Spirit for each person hitting you, etc.
    mDK will rise again.
    Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant

    Strongly against Faction Lock
  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
    Class Representative
    Agreed.
    Quantum - Magicka DK

    Youtube Channel

  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    I agree the game is becoming less small scale friendly in open world Pvp. However, artificially buffing someone because they're outnumbered seems like a poor way to go.

    I truly feel like dynamic ulti gen was the perfect mechanic for this game, it simply needed to be scaled down significantly(multiple standards or veils active from 1 player was always broken).
  • a1i3nz
    a1i3nz
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    Good idea but not likely to get implemented. I'd suggest reduced damage but then that wouldn't work either.

    I wish they'd come up with something. Not all of us are 24 hour zerg no lifers. My friends won't even touch the game because of how much of a zerg nightmare it is. No way to pvp solo unless you go bg (yeahhh right), or sewers...
  • Magıc
    Magıc
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    Could just bring a mild dynamic ult gen back.

    Currently you get 3 ult/s base gen.

    Could give you an extra 1- 1.5 ult/s if your hit by 2 more other players.

    This. Dynamic ult, but adjusted. Or, as someone else mentioned, a debuff to the X that scales the more there is.
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