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One Tam confusion about the story aspect

Memnock
Memnock
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As the title says , i am a bit confused as to how would the new version of the game work with the story. Right now as we all know , you start in one faction, do the main story and the zone stories from that faction and then after Colharbour , you get to do the other 2 factions , due to plot device code name Cadwel , which lets you experience the other factions struggle from their point of view.

But now , if i understand it correctly you can do the main story and roam around any faction from the getgo , how is that explained ? I mean , without the story contrivance from Cadwel , the other guys would recognize you and should instantly murder you, so... can someone please help me understand this one ?

Is there a small dialogue or cutscene added that at least attempts to explain this ?
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    Well.

    There is no diologue or cutscene but it's not that hard to explain.

    If we go by the DLC dates the war has been going on for around 5 years now. With the alliance war at a stalemate, it isn't that big a stretch to say the alliances would likely have a armistance as far as trade and non-military people traveling freely in borders. Restrictions would likely extend to military personal, but the guilds? Traders? Mercenaries? Who'd care about them? The war would likely still be ongoing and actions like say, covenant raiding parties would likely still happen and be illegal and responded to like an invasion, but individual restrictions would likely be less after around five years.

    We allready have people moving to places like Wayrest in search of work and geting it, this isn't such a leap, honestly.
    Edited by Doctordarkspawn on October 3, 2016 11:04AM
  • Memnock
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    Well.

    There is no diologue or cutscene but it's not that hard to explain.

    If we go by the DLC dates the war has been going on for around 5 years now. With the alliance war at a stalemate, it isn't that big a stretch to say the alliances would likely have a armistance as far as trade and non-military people traveling freely in borders. Restrictions would likely extend to military personal, but the guilds? Traders? Mercenaries? Who'd care about them? The war would likely still be ongoing and actions like say, covenant raiding parties would likely still happen and be illegal and responded to like an invasion, but individual restrictions would likely be less after around five years.

    We allready have people moving to places like Wayrest in search of work and geting it, this isn't such a leap, honestly.

    I would agree with that , except we have quest chains in each faction that have the player thwart their own alliance plans and i've had multiple point the the story when i'm like : Wait you want me to hinder a well coordinated assault or to help a traitor escape ? Where's the kill that guy option.... ah damn it i forgot i'm not supposed to do that.

    So these kinds of things that directly involve the conflict between the 3 factions... remains in the air at that point , since the main story does not change the time lines , at the beginning , you still start from a prison cell and it throws you in the conflict, in the faction you chose.

    But thank you for the confirmation , at least i now know that i should progress my story a bit on the one remaining alt, so i can at least have it properly in my head :D

    Edited by Memnock on October 3, 2016 11:13AM
  • Doctordarkspawn
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    Memnock wrote: »
    Well.

    There is no diologue or cutscene but it's not that hard to explain.

    If we go by the DLC dates the war has been going on for around 5 years now. With the alliance war at a stalemate, it isn't that big a stretch to say the alliances would likely have a armistance as far as trade and non-military people traveling freely in borders. Restrictions would likely extend to military personal, but the guilds? Traders? Mercenaries? Who'd care about them? The war would likely still be ongoing and actions like say, covenant raiding parties would likely still happen and be illegal and responded to like an invasion, but individual restrictions would likely be less after around five years.

    We allready have people moving to places like Wayrest in search of work and geting it, this isn't such a leap, honestly.

    I would agree with that , except we have quest chains in each faction that have the player thwart their own alliance plans and i've had multiple point the the story when i'm like : Wait you want me to hinder a well coordinated assault or to help a traitor escape ? Where's the kill that guy option.... ah damn it i forgot i'm not supposed to do that.

    So these kinds of things that directly involve the conflict between the 3 factions... remains in the air at that point , since the main story does not change the time lines , at the beginning , you still start from a prison cell and it throws you in the conflict, in the faction you chose.

    But thank you for the confirmation , at least i now know that i should progress my story a bit on the one remaining alt, so i can at least have it properly in my head :D

    Treat it like your a anonymous hero. Because you pretty much are.
  • Milvan
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    Memnock wrote: »
    I would agree with that , except we have quest chains in each faction that have the player thwart their own alliance plans and i've had multiple point the the story when i'm like : Wait you want me to hinder a well coordinated assault or to help a traitor escape ? Where's the kill that guy option.... ah damn it i forgot i'm not supposed to do that.

    Actually, in your timeline you only do the "main story" of your faction. When you start Caldwell silver/gold he clearly states that you experiencing a alternative timeline of what would happen if you asssocieted with a different faction.

    So you work for three alliances separetely, you work for one of them on three different timelines.
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  • Enodoc
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    Officially the story reason is the same. While you are in an enemy alliance's territory, your true identity is being hidden from them by Meridia. If you choose to do the story out-of-order, it's essentially your own fault that you don't get the explanation of this until later.

    But ZOS have heard that this doesn't make sense, and are "considering" adding a new explanation. @ZOS_RichLambert was shown this possible explanation, written by @tinythinker, at PAX (or something similar), and apparently called it an "interesting solution".
    Enodoc wrote: »
    When you first arrive in a different Alliance than the one you start the game with, add a glowing ball of light that appears only to you and that is heavily synthesized or continually altered in tone, pitch, etc. to make it seem other-worldly and unrecognizable. Something like this:

    Mysterious Voice: You have strayed into lands that may see you as an enemy. My master sees great potential in you, and will cloak you from detection. In the eyes of those you meet here your true identity will be unknown. Your reputation here will be born anew according to your actions.

    Player: Wait, I don't understand. Who is your master?

    Mysterious Voice: All will be revealed...if you show the qualities my master anticipates. Fare thee well, mortal.

    When you enter the other "enemy" Alliance, the original line from the Mysterious Voice changes a bit to this:

    Mysterious Voice: Ahhh, mortal, once again you have strayed into lands that may see you as an enemy. My master still cloaks you from detection. As before, your reputation in this place will be born anew according to your actions.

    So, you know, there you go. When you finally figure out who is pulling what strings (and why) later on this will make sense, but until then it adds another layer of intrigue. Now ZOS just needs to have a coder put in an NPC with the form of a glowy sphere at location x,y,z triggered by a new player entering zones a,b,c, then add in the text dialogue and set it to auto-play upon arrival, and grab a voice actor for a few minutes of work. Nothing too complicated or overly expensive/time-consuming.
    Ooh I like this :) That would work very well. There's a number of things associated with Meridia that could appear in front of you:
    • Ball of light, as you say. She is the Lady of Light, after all. An aspect of Meridia appeared in Skyrim as a ball of light, so this has precedence.
    • Meridia's Beacon, also from Skyrim. Meridia can speak to you through the Beacon, and the Beacon itself could be the cloak. The item could remain in your Quest Items, and the tooltip would always remind you of its cloaking capabilities. To avoid spoilers, it would first be introduced as "A Strange Gem", or something.
    • Auroran, Meridia's Daedric servants. Could be introduced as "A Mysterious Figure".
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  • Artis
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    The problem is that all 3 alliances' quests happen in parrallel timelines. With Cadwell it all made sense, since it was magic that moved us in time.

    What will happen now, I'm afraid, is that after killing Molag Bal we can go to another faction's zone and have quests that imply that Planemeld isn't stopped yet.

    I have absolutely no issue that we don't care about war and all and work together in PvE as different factions, it's fine. What I don't understand is the time-space anomaly I described above. Did ZOS do anything about it?
  • Enodoc
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    Artis wrote: »
    The problem is that all 3 alliances' quests happen in parrallel timelines. With Cadwell it all made sense, since it was magic that moved us in time.

    What will happen now, I'm afraid, is that after killing Molag Bal we can go to another faction's zone and have quests that imply that Planemeld isn't stopped yet.

    I have absolutely no issue that we don't care about war and all and work together in PvE as different factions, it's fine. What I don't understand is the time-space anomaly I described above. Did ZOS do anything about it?
    The timeline issue is something that's existed since launch, it's nothing new. Each zone exists in its own time period, and if you visit the zones out of order, you experience the timeline in the wrong order. And that applies to zones within alliances as well as between alliances. While I agree that it would be good for ZOS to address it, they haven't (and won't), because they never addressed it in the first place. You just have to know yourself that anything taking place in one of the alliance zones happens in the timeline before you defeat Molag Bal, even if you actually do it afterwards yourself.
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  • opaj
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    It's also worth noting that any character you meet in Cadwell's Gold or Silver will still remember you if you meet them again later in a DLC. So the "multiple timeline" narrative device was already stretched thin. (And rightly so -- it would be terribly disappointing if Raz didn't remember me, even if we only met in a dream!)

    Even so, I'd like to see Enodoc and tinythinker's suggestion above (or some variation of it) implemented.
  • Ilsabet
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    Milvan wrote: »
    Memnock wrote: »
    I would agree with that , except we have quest chains in each faction that have the player thwart their own alliance plans and i've had multiple point the the story when i'm like : Wait you want me to hinder a well coordinated assault or to help a traitor escape ? Where's the kill that guy option.... ah damn it i forgot i'm not supposed to do that.

    Actually, in your timeline you only do the "main story" of your faction. When you start Caldwell silver/gold he clearly states that you experiencing a alternative timeline of what would happen if you asssocieted with a different faction.

    So you work for three alliances separetely, you work for one of them on three different timelines.

    That's clearly the case now, but it'll be muddied up when One Tamriel lets you go to any area and do the quests there out of order. That's what the OP is asking about since we won't necessarily have the Cadwell explanation for what we're doing in the other alliances.
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  • Alp
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    Wish they would just make it impossible to skip past the main faction quests and force you to do it in order. You can still do side quests for every zone or start all 3 faction quests and do them parallel etc..

    When I did the Rift the first time I did it completely out of order by accident since I just went to some random location and they gave me a quest.

    So clean up the quests, don't make faction quests appear unless the previous one has been completed. Let people do quests for all 3 factions at once as long as they have done the first of each faction.

    Should also make phased zones only be phased during the quests so if you for example go to Dune before the quest it's just a regular city. Then when you finish the previous faction quest it could be phased like it is currently until the quest there is done and then return to being a normal city.

    All in all, more like the other elder scrolls games.
    Edited by Alp on October 3, 2016 5:29PM
  • I_killed_Vivec
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    The problem is that all 3 alliances' quests happen in parrallel timelines. With Cadwell it all made sense, since it was magic that moved us in time.

    What will happen now, I'm afraid, is that after killing Molag Bal we can go to another faction's zone and have quests that imply that Planemeld isn't stopped yet.

    I have absolutely no issue that we don't care about war and all and work together in PvE as different factions, it's fine. What I don't understand is the time-space anomaly I described above. Did ZOS do anything about it?
    The timeline issue is something that's existed since launch, it's nothing new. Each zone exists in its own time period, and if you visit the zones out of order, you experience the timeline in the wrong order. And that applies to zones within alliances as well as between alliances. While I agree that it would be good for ZOS to address it, they haven't (and won't), because they never addressed it in the first place. You just have to know yourself that anything taking place in one of the alliance zones happens in the timeline before you defeat Molag Bal, even if you actually do it afterwards yourself.

    There's always been a problem.

    I've defeated Moley, I've smashed up Coldharbour, I've completed Cadwell's. If I go back to any alliance zone they will know that I'm a hero and that zone will look very different to how it was when I first found it.

    But all the dolmen are still active - it's as if Moley doesn't know that I've beaten him and foiled his planemeld plans...

    I don't see it as much of a problem though, after all I've defeated all the wold bosses and slaughtered quite a few innocents - but they all appear to be live and kicking again :)
  • Enodoc
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    opaj wrote: »
    It's also worth noting that any character you meet in Cadwell's Gold or Silver will still remember you if you meet them again later in a DLC. So the "multiple timeline" narrative device was already stretched thin. (And rightly so -- it would be terribly disappointing if Raz didn't remember me, even if we only met in a dream!)
    Right, and we think that makes sense because they see you as they remember you; since Raz knows you from the AD timeline, Meridia's intervention means that's how he sees you when you meet him in the Gold Coast too, even if you're actually a DC player. We're moving away from a distinct "alternate timeline" setup to an "altered timeline" setup. As @Abeille has said before, it's kinda like a Spinner story, as it has direct parallels with The Witch of Silatar in Greenshade; you're put into Aranias' past to befriend her, and even though that never happened in the primary timeline, she remembers you as a friend when you meet her at Greenheart.
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  • WatchYourSixx
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    "Every culture on Tamriel remembers the Dragon Break in some fashion; to most it is a spiritual anguish that they cannot account for. Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't. Even the 'one thousand and eight years,' a number (some say arbitrarily) chosen by the Elder Council, is an unreliable measure."
    Where were you when the Dragon Broke?

    It's been said time and time again.. Look up what a Dragon Break is in ESO. Boom. Everything and anything explained.

    Why do npc's respawn like they were never killed? Dragon Break
    Why are there so many different timelines all happening at once but at different times of me playing it? Dragon Break

    EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE! :tongue:

    Even though it has never been officially stated as such, I cannot fathom how the events of an MMO in an Elder Scrolls Universe to be anything other than a Dragon Break.

    Dragon Break is :heart:
    Edited by WatchYourSixx on October 3, 2016 5:50PM
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  • sirston
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    "Every culture on Tamriel remembers the Dragon Break in some fashion; to most it is a spiritual anguish that they cannot account for. Several texts survive this timeless period, all (unsurprisingly) conflicting with each other regarding events, people, and regions: wars are mentioned in some that never happen in another, the sun changes color depending on the witness, and the gods either walk among the mortals or they don't. Even the 'one thousand and eight years,' a number (some say arbitrarily) chosen by the Elder Council, is an unreliable measure."
    ―Where were you when the Dragon Broke?


    It's been said time and time again.. Look up what a Dragon Break is in ESO. Boom. Everything and anything explained.

    Why do npc's respawn like they were never killed? Dragon Break
    Why are there so many different timelines all happening at once but at different times of me playing it? Dragon Break

    EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE! :tongue:

    Even though it has never been officially stated as such, I cannot fathom how the events of an MMO in an Elder Scrolls Universe to be anything other than a Dragon Break.

    Dragon Break is :heart:

    The the dragon Break theory I like it. Only issue is if you can experience any faction before cadswil silver and gold; then do silver and gold. are you just experiencing your self's alternate timeline Self? :/ The problem with dragon break is that no one would Know expect for yourself, but once you realized it you would forget about it. Time looping by lore...
    Edited by sirston on October 3, 2016 5:53PM
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  • WatchYourSixx
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    Exactly! And why else would something so devastating not be recorded in Tamriel's History?

    The very little we knew about ESO going into it, was that there was a war between factions, and the throne sat empty. That was pretty much literally all we knew. How could something so massive be left out? How could a potentially imminent war of the princes unfold yet be unrecorded?
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  • Enodoc
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    The problem with the dragon break theory is that every other dragon break that has occurred has been well documented. If there was a dragon break in the Second Era, even if no-one knew what occurred within it, the fact that it occurred at all would be known, due to a cataclysmic loss of a few days/years of the calendar. (Besides that, it's a bit of a scapegoat theory when they could easily come up with something else.)

    All of the discrepancies in ESO can be explained without using a dragon break:

    Multiple Heroes
    This isn't an issue. From your perspective, and the perspective of the world, you are the Hero, the one and only Vestige (why do you think the Main Quest is forced solo?), and the one and only Alliance Champion. Everyone else is A. N. Adventurer, an incidental character who you happened across along the way. No dragon breaks required.

    Playing for The Enemy
    We covered this one already. Meridia hides your identity from the other Alliance leaders.

    Books from the wrong time period
    This is Hermaeus Mora's fault, not the result of a dragon break.

    Respawning Enemies
    For the most part, this isn't an issue. Creatures move in to places when the previous inhabitants are killed. The only issue then is bosses. Put this down to a gameplay mechanic that doesn't need explanation, as there is no need for anyone to visit such a place more than once anyway. But consider that they did actually bother to include some lore for this in one dungeon; Rubble Butte, where you have to recover a book on the Middle Dawn dragon break for a quest, is stuck in a time loop, directly explaining why the bosses keep respawning. Would that be considered a dragon break itself? That depends on whether you feel something is valid as a dragon break if it onky has a local effect.
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  • Preyfar
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    At this point and time, I think it's much easier to think of the Vestigate as somebody who's playing the political game for his own good. While you have a faction now (for PVP purposes) you're not really allied with anyone. You're your own person, and you're playing the factions against one another as a pawn of the Prophet (to mend the wounds from his past) and a tool for Meridia (an avatar for her greater plans).
    Edited by Preyfar on October 3, 2016 6:30PM
  • Preyfar
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Multiple Heroes
    This isn't an issue. From your perspective, and the perspective of the world, you are the Hero, the one and only Vestige (why do you think the Main Quest is forced solo?), and the one and only Alliance Champion. Everyone else is A. N. Adventurer, an incidental character who you happened across along the way. No dragon breaks required.
    They're fellow Undaunted and and people running around, looking for the same things - fame, fortune, and a big ol' stash o' sweetrolls.
  • Autolycus
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    I see a lot of good explanations in here, but there is something that either I missed or hasn't been explained.

    People keep saying that the Vestige is "anonymous" to members of the other factions when traveling in the "opposing" factions' zones. First of all, if Meridia is the one who is concealing the Vestige's identity from the other factions, how is this being accomplished before the Vestige even makes contact with Meridia? Anyone who has played through the main story at least once knows that Meridia is all but completely disinterested in going out of her way for the Vestige, let alone any other mortal. She only bestows this gift upon the Vestige after he/she successfully banishes Molag Bal and thwarts the Planemeld. Who is concealing the identity of some freshly-escaped, soulless Coldharbour victim?

    Second, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be, Gods know I've done this story in whole or part at least 5 times, but still prone to mistakes), there are members within each of the "opposing" factions that recognize the Vestige for who he/she really is, like Razum-dar, for example. Again, if not mistaken, these events occur during Silver and Gold, but not during the standard playthrough. So then, are these nuances being removed entirely to account for players who haven't defeated Molag Bal prior to entering those zone? If so, is that not disappointing in and of itself? Those dialogue caveats are part of the Silver/Gold experience and help to close loopholes that would otherwise be present. Meridia was never totally successful in concealing the Vestige's identity; will it not be a more pronounced plot hole with 1T?
    Edited by Autolycus on October 3, 2016 6:47PM
  • Xvorg
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    opaj wrote: »
    It's also worth noting that any character you meet in Cadwell's Gold or Silver will still remember you if you meet them again later in a DLC. So the "multiple timeline" narrative device was already stretched thin. (And rightly so -- it would be terribly disappointing if Raz didn't remember me, even if we only met in a dream!)

    Even so, I'd like to see Enodoc and tinythinker's suggestion above (or some variation of it) implemented.

    Skordo remembering Darien was something quite sad... =(
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  • Xvorg
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    I see a lot of good explanations in here, but there is something that either I missed or hasn't been explained.

    People keep saying that the Vestige is "anonymous" to members of the other factions when traveling in the "opposing" factions' zones. First of all, if Meridia is the one who is concealing the Vestige's identity from the other factions, how is this being accomplished before the Vestige even makes contact with Meridia? Anyone who has played through the main story at least once knows that Meridia is all but completely disinterested in going out of her way for the Vestige, let alone any other mortal. She only bestows this gift upon the Vestige after he/she successfully banishes Molag Bal and thwarts the Planemeld. Who is concealing the identity of some freshly-escaped, soulless Coldharbour victim?

    Second, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be, Gods know I've done this story in whole or part at least 5 times, but still prone to mistakes), there are members within each of the "opposing" factions that recognize the Vestige for who he/she really is, like Razum-dar, for example. Again, if not mistaken, these events occur during Silver and Gold, but not during the standard playthrough. So then, are these nuances being removed entirely to account for players who haven't defeated Molag Bal prior to entering those zone? If so, is that not disappointing in and of itself? Those dialogue caveats are part of the Silver/Gold experience and help to close loopholes that would otherwise be present. Meridia was never totally successful in concealing the Vestige's identity; will it not be a more pronounced plot hole with 1T?

    The question is... is really Meridia who's concealing the Vestige's identity? Because what you receive is Akatosh's blessing to defeat Molag Bal.

    Meridia's work is through the Fighter's Guild (she was the one who came up with the plane that put See-all-colors in front of the FG). That serves her in 2 different ways:

    1- The Mortuum Vivicus (directly through the FG)
    2- The Planar Vortex (to stop the Planemeld in the Army of Meridia chapter)

    Meridia does not participate in the main quest, everything is done through Varen, and who's the one Varen's asks for help? Yup, the very same Akatosh. Meridia only appears to save the Vestige soul because he/she is useful to her (she says at some point she used the Vestige). And even she mentions that the other Princes are aware of his/her existance.

    What I think is that Akatosh foresaw the events related to the Vestige and informed Varen about that through the Elder Scrolls. He knew he needed Meridia's help to defeat Molag Bal without having a Dragonborn (similar to Nerevarine and Azura), but ultimately, as well as in Morrowind, the Vestige (and thus the Nerevarine) are champions of Akatosh.
    Edited by Xvorg on October 3, 2016 7:28PM
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  • Enodoc
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    People keep saying that the Vestige is "anonymous" to members of the other factions when traveling in the "opposing" factions' zones. First of all, if Meridia is the one who is concealing the Vestige's identity from the other factions, how is this being accomplished before the Vestige even makes contact with Meridia? Anyone who has played through the main story at least once knows that Meridia is all but completely disinterested in going out of her way for the Vestige, let alone any other mortal. She only bestows this gift upon the Vestige after he/she successfully banishes Molag Bal and thwarts the Planemeld. Who is concealing the identity of some freshly-escaped, soulless Coldharbour victim?
    She could easily see the potential in the Vestige for the future. Someone who managed to escape Coldharbour may serve her well later down the line.
    Second, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be, Gods know I've done this story in whole or part at least 5 times, but still prone to mistakes), there are members within each of the "opposing" factions that recognize the Vestige for who he/she really is, like Razum-dar, for example. Again, if not mistaken, these events occur during Silver and Gold, but not during the standard playthrough. So then, are these nuances being removed entirely to account for players who haven't defeated Molag Bal prior to entering those zone? If so, is that not disappointing in and of itself? Those dialogue caveats are part of the Silver/Gold experience and help to close loopholes that would otherwise be present. Meridia was never totally successful in concealing the Vestige's identity; will it not be a more pronounced plot hole with 1T?
    When does Raz see you for who you really are? As far as I can remember, he only sees you as someone who dropped out of the sky.
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  • Artis
    Artis
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Artis wrote: »
    The problem is that all 3 alliances' quests happen in parrallel timelines. With Cadwell it all made sense, since it was magic that moved us in time.

    What will happen now, I'm afraid, is that after killing Molag Bal we can go to another faction's zone and have quests that imply that Planemeld isn't stopped yet.

    I have absolutely no issue that we don't care about war and all and work together in PvE as different factions, it's fine. What I don't understand is the time-space anomaly I described above. Did ZOS do anything about it?
    The timeline issue is something that's existed since launch, it's nothing new. Each zone exists in its own time period, and if you visit the zones out of order, you experience the timeline in the wrong order. And that applies to zones within alliances as well as between alliances. While I agree that it would be good for ZOS to address it, they haven't (and won't), because they never addressed it in the first place. You just have to know yourself that anything taking place in one of the alliance zones happens in the timeline before you defeat Molag Bal, even if you actually do it afterwards yourself.

    I disagree. It is very new. Other zones don't really imply you completed previous zones. I've been leveling an alt now and I go to zones randomly to collect books/skyshards and sometimes talk to NPCs to see what quest was there since I"ve done them 2 years ago and want to refresh my memory sometimes. I haven't seen any references to previous locations yet. Then again, Idk about orsinium since that note implies the Planemeld was stopped and Darien is gone, I guess.

    Now it's something very new. Now there's way more mess to the point where zone contradict each other. I'm talking about faction zones, not even DLC.

    But that "Solution" makes no sense. Especially if I"m a new player - how do I know about all these "fixes" lol? I don't wanna be this guy, but 'member WoW? There it made sense and was aligned with leveling. Now with all this auto-leveling it's just. Come on, they obviously should do something about it.
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Right, and we think that makes sense because they see you as they remember you; since Raz knows you from the AD timeline, Meridia's intervention means that's how he sees you when you meet him in the Gold Coast too, even if you're actually a DC player. We're moving away from a distinct "alternate timeline" setup to an "altered timeline" setup. As @Abeille has said before, it's kinda like a Spinner story, as it has direct parallels with The Witch of Silatar in Greenshade; you're put into Aranias' past to befriend her, and even though that never happened in the primary timeline, she remembers you as a friend when you meet her at Greenheart.

    Don't we meet Raz when we're getting all 3 alliances together? We are. Plus we kill Molag Bal, so after that we are famous.

    However the question (and possible explanation of why we are recognized) is are all 3 timelines happening at the same time or no? I'd say yes - since NPCs in DLCs make references to all 3 factions, plus if not a player how would Ayrenn become the queen of AD and who would save Emeric from supernal dreamers, and would save Jorunn from that other dude.

    So maybe what happened is that Meridia placed us in a body of those other 2 dudes who were heroes of the other two factions?
  • Xvorg
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    People keep saying that the Vestige is "anonymous" to members of the other factions when traveling in the "opposing" factions' zones. First of all, if Meridia is the one who is concealing the Vestige's identity from the other factions, how is this being accomplished before the Vestige even makes contact with Meridia? Anyone who has played through the main story at least once knows that Meridia is all but completely disinterested in going out of her way for the Vestige, let alone any other mortal. She only bestows this gift upon the Vestige after he/she successfully banishes Molag Bal and thwarts the Planemeld. Who is concealing the identity of some freshly-escaped, soulless Coldharbour victim?
    She could easily see the potential in the Vestige for the future. Someone who managed to escape Coldharbour may serve her well later down the line.

    But again, who takes you out of Coldharbour is Akatosh. Meridia doesn't know the Vestige until he joins the FG
    Second, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be, Gods know I've done this story in whole or part at least 5 times, but still prone to mistakes), there are members within each of the "opposing" factions that recognize the Vestige for who he/she really is, like Razum-dar, for example. Again, if not mistaken, these events occur during Silver and Gold, but not during the standard playthrough. So then, are these nuances being removed entirely to account for players who haven't defeated Molag Bal prior to entering those zone? If so, is that not disappointing in and of itself? Those dialogue caveats are part of the Silver/Gold experience and help to close loopholes that would otherwise be present. Meridia was never totally successful in concealing the Vestige's identity; will it not be a more pronounced plot hole with 1T?
    When does Raz see you for who you really are? As far as I can remember, he only sees you as someone who dropped out of the sky.

    Raz is not the only one... what about Skordo in Orsinum?
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Enodoc
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    Artis wrote: »
    I disagree. It is very new. Other zones don't really imply you completed previous zones. I've been leveling an alt now and I go to zones randomly to collect books/skyshards and sometimes talk to NPCs to see what quest was there since I"ve done them 2 years ago and want to refresh my memory sometimes. I haven't seen any references to previous locations yet. Then again, Idk about orsinium since that note implies the Planemeld was stopped and Darien is gone, I guess.
    You must not have played the Dominion storyline recently.
    The events in Malabal Tor surrounding the Silvenar only occur because in Greenshade, Indaenir is revealed to be the Silvenar. The events in Greenshade only occur because in Grahtwood, you kill Prince Naemon. Prince Naemon only goes off his rocker in Grahtwood because you killed Estre in Auridon.
    Granted the other alliances are less tied like this, but there are a few references.
    But that "Solution" makes no sense. Especially if I"m a new player - how do I know about all these "fixes" lol? I don't wanna be this guy, but 'member WoW? There it made sense and was aligned with leveling. Now with all this auto-leveling it's just. Come on, they obviously should do something about it.
    Right, you don't know this is happening. Which is why ZOS need to put in an explanation like the one tinythinker came up with so that it's explained for new players. (No, I don't remember WoW. Never played it ;) )
    Don't we meet Raz when we're getting all 3 alliances together? We are. Plus we kill Molag Bal, so after that we are famous.
    That's true, but Raz doesn't mention that meeting when you see him in AD territories afterwards, and considering you are famous, the only possible reason for him not recognising you would be because your identity was hidden. With One Tamriel, this will also work in reverse (correct me if I'm wrong); you may have met Raz many times in the AD storyline before doing Messages Across Tamriel for EP or DC, but he won't recognise you when you do that quest.
    However the question (and possible explanation of why we are recognized) is are all 3 timelines happening at the same time or no? I'd say yes - since NPCs in DLCs make references to all 3 factions, plus if not a player how would Ayrenn become the queen of AD and who would save Emeric from supernal dreamers, and would save Jorunn from that other dude.
    I would say yes as well, and those things are happening because Meridia (or whoever) has inserted us into the story to become the Champion, just as the Spinner inserts us into the story to become Aranias' friend.
    Xvorg wrote: »
    But again, who takes you out of Coldharbour is Akatosh. Meridia doesn't know the Vestige until he joins the FG
    Why not? It would be severely lax of her if she wasn't aware of a mortal escaping the realm of her arch nemesis, regardless of who helped the Vestige to escape.
    Raz is not the only one... what about Skordo in Orsinum?
    In DLC zones, anyone you met in an alliance storyline will recognise you, because they will remember you as a member of their alliance, even if you aren't. That's the benefit of the DLC zones bring Neutral.
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    But again, who takes you out of Coldharbour is Akatosh. Meridia doesn't know the Vestige until he joins the FG
    Why not? It would be severely lax of her if she wasn't aware of a mortal escaping the realm of her arch nemesis, regardless of who helped the Vestige to escape.

    Fair enough, nevertheless she doesn't notice neither Lyris, nor Sai. Her focus on the Vestige comes after he destroys the Mortuum Vivicus. Even more, the champions she chose at the beginning were King Dynar and Vanus Galerion, both necessary to stop the planemeld. The Vestige was just the recruiter (for Hollow city)
    Raz is not the only one... what about Skordo in Orsinum?
    In DLC zones, anyone you met in an alliance storyline will recognise you, because they will remember you as a member of their alliance, even if you aren't. That's the benefit of the DLC zones bring Neutral.

    But you can go to Wrothgar even before completing storyline.
    Edited by Xvorg on October 3, 2016 9:02PM
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    But again, who takes you out of Coldharbour is Akatosh. Meridia doesn't know the Vestige until he joins the FG
    Why not? It would be severely lax of her if she wasn't aware of a mortal escaping the realm of her arch nemesis, regardless of who helped the Vestige to escape.
    Fair enough, nevertheless she doesn't notice neither Lyris, nor Sai. Her focus on the Vestige comes after he destroys the Mortuum Vivicus. Even more, the champions she chose at the beginning were King Dynar and Vanus Galerion, both necessary to stop the planemeld. The Vestige was just the recruiter (for Hollow city)
    Lyris and Sai aren't Soul Shriven, supposedly bound to Molag Bal for eternity. They're just a pair of hapless mortals who got bowled along for the ride, and hapless mortals end up in Oblivion realms all the time. An escaping Soul Shriven is noteworthy, and the fact they severed their connection to Coldharbour and reconnected to Nirn makes them even more so.
    Raz is not the only one... what about Skordo in Orsinum?
    In DLC zones, anyone you met in an alliance storyline will recognise you, because they will remember you as a member of their alliance, even if you aren't. That's the benefit of the DLC zones bring Neutral.
    But you can go to Wrothgar even before completing storyline.
    Indeed, and if you do so, I believe that he doesn't recognise you.

    Edited by Enodoc on October 3, 2016 9:09PM
    UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
    Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    I see a lot of good explanations in here, but there is something that either I missed or hasn't been explained.

    People keep saying that the Vestige is "anonymous" to members of the other factions when traveling in the "opposing" factions' zones. First of all, if Meridia is the one who is concealing the Vestige's identity from the other factions, how is this being accomplished before the Vestige even makes contact with Meridia? Anyone who has played through the main story at least once knows that Meridia is all but completely disinterested in going out of her way for the Vestige, let alone any other mortal. She only bestows this gift upon the Vestige after he/she successfully banishes Molag Bal and thwarts the Planemeld. Who is concealing the identity of some freshly-escaped, soulless Coldharbour victim?

    Second, if I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be, Gods know I've done this story in whole or part at least 5 times, but still prone to mistakes), there are members within each of the "opposing" factions that recognize the Vestige for who he/she really is, like Razum-dar, for example. Again, if not mistaken, these events occur during Silver and Gold, but not during the standard playthrough. So then, are these nuances being removed entirely to account for players who haven't defeated Molag Bal prior to entering those zone? If so, is that not disappointing in and of itself? Those dialogue caveats are part of the Silver/Gold experience and help to close loopholes that would otherwise be present. Meridia was never totally successful in concealing the Vestige's identity; will it not be a more pronounced plot hole with 1T?

    The question is... is really Meridia who's concealing the Vestige's identity? Because what you receive is Akatosh's blessing to defeat Molag Bal.

    Meridia's work is through the Fighter's Guild (she was the one who came up with the plane that put See-all-colors in front of the FG). That serves her in 2 different ways:

    1- The Mortuum Vivicus (directly through the FG)
    2- The Planar Vortex (to stop the Planemeld in the Army of Meridia chapter)

    Meridia does not participate in the main quest, everything is done through Varen, and who's the one Varen's asks for help? Yup, the very same Akatosh. Meridia only appears to save the Vestige soul because he/she is useful to her (she says at some point she used the Vestige). And even she mentions that the other Princes are aware of his/her existance.

    What I think is that Akatosh foresaw the events related to the Vestige and informed Varen about that through the Elder Scrolls. He knew he needed Meridia's help to defeat Molag Bal without having a Dragonborn (similar to Nerevarine and Azura), but ultimately, as well as in Morrowind, the Vestige (and thus the Nerevarine) are champions of Akatosh.

    This was really insightful, thank you. It got me to see a different perspective of it, as I hadn't given a lot of consideration for the connection between Akatosh and Varen, despite having known this all along, nor had I taken that further to conclude that it is actually Akatosh's involvement that can be accredited for the Vestige's unhindered access to the other alliance zones.

    The way you explain it makes a lot more sense than simply saying it was Meridia. She expressly states numerous times that she is either using the Vestige, or doesn't care for mortal business at all. It's far more reasonable to believe that Akatosh was involved from the very beginning (and thus, is the one who is actually shielding the Vestige from other alliances), since the Vestige forces his/her own involvement by aiding Varen from the beginning - an act that is undoubtedly going to gain the attention of Akatosh (because why would he not be watching Varen?).

    I just have one other question then - If it's not Meridia who is really shielding the Vestige in other alliance territories, then why is that the Vestige must activate one of the Lights of Meridia (with Cadwell's help) to get there? I know it's not technically this way anymore, because we can travel wherever we want now (instead of being forced down a linear path through silver/gold like we used to). But that's how the story goes, yes? Is it not the Light of Meridia and her magick that enables the Vestige to get there initially? If that's the case, how does the Vestige move across zones without reaching this point first, at least without causing a plot hole?
    Edited by Autolycus on October 3, 2016 9:40PM
  • Alp
    Alp
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    But again, who takes you out of Coldharbour is Akatosh. Meridia doesn't know the Vestige until he joins the FG
    Why not? It would be severely lax of her if she wasn't aware of a mortal escaping the realm of her arch nemesis, regardless of who helped the Vestige to escape.

    Fair enough, nevertheless she doesn't notice neither Lyris, nor Sai. Her focus on the Vestige comes after he destroys the Mortuum Vivicus. Even more, the champions she chose at the beginning were King Dynar and Vanus Galerion, both necessary to stop the planemeld. The Vestige was just the recruiter (for Hollow city)
    Raz is not the only one... what about Skordo in Orsinum?
    In DLC zones, anyone you met in an alliance storyline will recognise you, because they will remember you as a member of their alliance, even if you aren't. That's the benefit of the DLC zones bring Neutral.

    But you can go to Wrothgar even before completing storyline.

    If you go to wrothgar before doing the story they don't recognise you.
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
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    Memnock wrote: »
    can someone please help me understand this one ?
    Magick ...
    shades.gif

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