Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »The number of times you used cowardly in that paragraph kinda just makes me hope you're Xbox NA-DC or AD.Lucius_Aelius wrote: »Running away and/or hiding is by definition cowardly, but it's also legitimate strategy in warfare, living to fight another day and whatnot. There have been lots of people too brave to run away and/or hide in real life, and it got them killed so there's only so much good you can say about being brave in warfare, sometimes you just need to be a coward to win. People like fair games though and not being able to fight back feels cheap even when it's good strategy, and especially when gankers have big egos just for being good at cowardly tactics then it's easy to understand why they're looked down upon by other players who don't gank much or at all themselves.Hahaha if they were trying to gank without utilizing cloak and/or purge they deserved that beam .I like it when somebody tries to gank you, and they fail, and then try to run away and you RD them to the ground, and then they whisper you to tell you to shove your jesus beam up your arse
Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »This one has been ganked.Lucius_Aelius wrote: »It's a legitimate strategy in warfare so there's nothing wrong with it per se, it's just the most cowardly way to fight even though it's effective, and some people get inflated egos and think they're hot stuff for getting kills against people that don't stand a chance. In this game the burst is so strong that most people simply cannot survive the opening salvo, especially since on horseback if you get knocked off you can't break free of the animation and you're usually dead before you can stand even on tankier builds like mine.
I think the animation of being knocked off your horse needs to be able to be broken free of like any stun, and gankers need to remember they're nothing special for fighting in the least challenging way possible (at least if they want any respect), but ganking is and will remain a legitimate and effective strategy and there's nothing inherently wrong with doing it, mainly it's just obnoxious to be on the receiving end and (especially when being ganked by multiple people at once) not standing a chance or even having the opportunity to fight back.
The reasons it's annoying are also the reasons why it works though, so it is what it is, Guerilla warfare always sucks whenever you're not the guerilla fighter (and sometimes even when you are, it's not always fun to be outmatched and not be able to do anything besides gank and hope your enemy dies before they have a chance to fight back, otherwise it can end very badly for the ganker).
Lol but on a serious note, what isn't considered cowardly in this game? Sorcs that streak away and minecamp? Templars that stand at the back of a zerg beaming anything they see? The Templars and dks that rely on malubeth being broken? The stam builds dodge rolling like monkeys with shuffle up so they seemingly never get hit?
I never understood the hate tells of "yeah well you're just a stupid coward using invisibility". Pretty sure people just have big egos, and when a decent ganker comes their way and melts them they feel some sort of injustice has been done to them lol.
jarradarab wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Go about your business and gank them despite the hate. Some people would hate you no matter how you killed them.
Yeah true I guess. I get killed by gankers all the time and its never bothered me, is it slightly annoying, sure but then so is dying while in a fight an having to run back anyway. I just dont get the people you see calling them scumbags etc
In regards to what you specifically said earlier about coward this and cowardly that, passive aggressive usage of words tends to irritate me, yes...But my point is that I could find "cowardly" aspects in (almost) anyone's build so I'm not sure why others act all high and mighty when talking about gankers. I can only assume it is because when successful, the gank is instant and they're dead before they realize what happened, but tbh there are plenty of ways to prevent this.Lucius_Aelius wrote: »It's a word, and the right word to use because it is what it is, if you don't like it you're the only one here with any kind of problem, not me. And yes I'm DC and proud of it, and I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. I said it's a legitimate strategy, what exactly is your problem?
Sorry, by decent I mostly meant that they have certain set gear, CP, and patience lol was not trying to sound like it's some secret society of elites. I only gank with my magicka nb and personally enjoy that it's a trade-off (in regards to having low regen). Stam sets like the ones you mentioned are indeed irritating, but I think it's because it allows them to not have to sacrifice much of anything i.e. eternal hunt+velidreth+vipers.It doesn't require a decent player to successfully gank almost anyone anymore though. Snipe back in the day was already stupid, but you could always dodge it unless the sound bugged out. Heavy attacks, Silver Shards, Ambush in 1.6 was more difficult, but still doable. But Dawnbreaker, Red Mountain, Widowmaker and Velidreth most of the time can't be dodged. Getting oneshot by RNG sets is about the worst design I could think of for PvP.
I agree that once one has the right set-up, ganking is quite straightforward; but there are plenty of more challenging instances where I've ganked fully aware high-ranked players in the middle of their group and got out.jarradarab wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Go about your business and gank them despite the hate. Some people would hate you no matter how you killed them.
Yeah true I guess. I get killed by gankers all the time and its never bothered me, is it slightly annoying, sure but then so is dying while in a fight an having to run back anyway. I just dont get the people you see calling them scumbags etc
What he said isn't true at all for the majority of players.
People don't like losing, sure, but most don't "hate" a player after a fair loss.
What people do hate are cheesy undeserved kills, being killed in a situation where they are unable to respond or fight back, players who actively prey on undergeared or underleveled players, or what they perceive as skilless play.
And let's be honest...ganking with a proper build is among the easier play styles in the game. There are plenty of published builds capable of one shotting 25k+ health players, not to mention bugs such as the ravage health poison one shots and Incap unbreakable ccs, so ganking successfully really just comes down to selecting weak, distracted, or afk opponents and escaping.
TLDR: gankers are generally afraid to engage in fair combat, use builds that lack counterplay and often utilize exploits, and target afk or underleveled players or those already fighting other players.
If you want respect, fight in the open.
Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »In regards to what you specifically said earlier about coward this and cowardly that, passive aggressive usage of words tends to irritate me, yes...But my point is that I could find "cowardly" aspects in (almost) anyone's build so I'm not sure why others act all high and mighty when talking about gankers. I can only assume it is because when successful, the gank is instant and they're dead before they realize what happened, but tbh there are plenty of ways to prevent this.Lucius_Aelius wrote: »It's a word, and the right word to use because it is what it is, if you don't like it you're the only one here with any kind of problem, not me. And yes I'm DC and proud of it, and I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. I said it's a legitimate strategy, what exactly is your problem?Sorry, by decent I mostly meant that they have certain set gear, CP, and patience lol was not trying to sound like it's some secret society of elites. I only gank with my magicka nb and personally enjoy that it's a trade-off (in regards to having low regen). Stam sets like the ones you mentioned are indeed irritating, but I think it's because it allows them to not have to sacrifice much of anything i.e. eternal hunt+velidreth+vipers.It doesn't require a decent player to successfully gank almost anyone anymore though. Snipe back in the day was already stupid, but you could always dodge it unless the sound bugged out. Heavy attacks, Silver Shards, Ambush in 1.6 was more difficult, but still doable. But Dawnbreaker, Red Mountain, Widowmaker and Velidreth most of the time can't be dodged. Getting oneshot by RNG sets is about the worst design I could think of for PvP.
jarradarab wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Go about your business and gank them despite the hate. Some people would hate you no matter how you killed them.
Yeah true I guess. I get killed by gankers all the time and its never bothered me, is it slightly annoying, sure but then so is dying while in a fight an having to run back anyway. I just dont get the people you see calling them scumbags etc
What he said isn't true at all for the majority of players.
People don't like losing, sure, but most don't "hate" a player after a fair loss.
What people do hate are cheesy undeserved kills, being killed in a situation where they are unable to respond or fight back, players who actively prey on undergeared or underleveled players, or what they perceive as skilless play.
And let's be honest...ganking with a proper build is among the easier play styles in the game. There are plenty of published builds capable of one shotting 25k+ health players, not to mention bugs such as the ravage health poison one shots and Incap unbreakable ccs, so ganking successfully really just comes down to selecting weak, distracted, or afk opponents and escaping.
TLDR: gankers are generally afraid to engage in fair combat, use builds that lack counterplay and often utilize exploits, and target afk or underleveled players or those already fighting other players.
If you want respect, fight in the open.
Lucius_Aelius wrote: »I'm not being passive aggressive, I'm being straightforward, I run away all the time from fights I know I can't win and every time I do so I'm being a coward, brave people stand their ground and fight to the last breath no matter how steep the odds (and often lose the war in the process). It just is what it is, running and hiding and ganking (in other words guerilla warfare, a proven effective strategy for a smaller force to battle against a larger force when a straight-up fight would surely fail) may be cowardly things but warfare has no sense of fairness, intelligent strategy is what wins wars and sometimes running away or generally being a coward is the best thing you can do to win in the long run. If you can't accept that then you're clearly insecure about yourself and your gameplay, I on the other hand am open and honest and say it like it is.
Stoopid_Nwah wrote: »Lucius_Aelius wrote: »I'm not being passive aggressive, I'm being straightforward, I run away all the time from fights I know I can't win and every time I do so I'm being a coward, brave people stand their ground and fight to the last breath no matter how steep the odds (and often lose the war in the process). It just is what it is, running and hiding and ganking (in other words guerilla warfare, a proven effective strategy for a smaller force to battle against a larger force when a straight-up fight would surely fail) may be cowardly things but warfare has no sense of fairness, intelligent strategy is what wins wars and sometimes running away or generally being a coward is the best thing you can do to win in the long run. If you can't accept that then you're clearly insecure about yourself and your gameplay, I on the other hand am open and honest and say it like it is.
Perhaps you don't think you are/were, but it certainly came off that way to me. Also, I am starting to think we just have very different definitions of cowardly, at least how it relates to eso (I don't care about any definitions related to real-life, this is a video game, not actual war).
I think each playstyle has its weaknesses and strengths, but I wouldn't say anything is outright cowardly (including running away). If we got into it like that, then as I said before, anyone could be called a coward. In fact, I don't think standing your ground holding block and spamming heals is brave at all. And at the same time, I don't think ganking some guy on siege away from his group is brave. I don't really find anything in the game brave or cowardly, because it's just that, a video game. There are no real consequences here; it all matters very little in the grand scheme of things.
Maybe I need to clarify my point more? What you think of as cowardly, I think of as intelligent game-play/not being a hothead with a big ego thinking they can handle more than they actually can. So I guess at the end of the day, I find it more insulting than honest when players call other players cowards (especially if they're calling low-levels cowards for trying to get away, that s*** pisses me off).
As a final note, there are many occasions where instead of just outright ganking, I'll follow behind low-levels and lower-leveled groups in the sewers to watch their backs (usually they don't even know I'm around tbh), and often times there are other gankers about that I'll kill without the group even knowing I just saved them from losing stones. So not all of us are complete a**holes knocking people off horses on bridges then bolting lol.
PeggymoeXD wrote: »When it comes down to it, play the way you find most enjoyable. I judge gankers but only when I'm salty. And no, not because they've killed me, but because when they fail to destroy me with 1 or 2 hits, they disappear. I acknowledge this is a legitimate playstyle. It's just boring to me. If you're going to attempt to pick me off and fail, you deserve punishment. So fight me. Don't run away. You might even win. But because you disappeared, we'll never know. Like I said, if playing like that makes you happy, do it regardless of what others think, including me.
Heres a note to all my stam dk brethren out there. Equip heavy armor, block, cast igneous, drink major vitality potion, cast vigor, cast volitile armor, cast rally and proceed to stomp the ganker into the dirt.
PeggymoeXD wrote: »When it comes down to it, play the way you find most enjoyable. I judge gankers but only when I'm salty. And no, not because they've killed me, but because when they fail to destroy me with 1 or 2 hits, they disappear. I acknowledge this is a legitimate playstyle. It's just boring to me. If you're going to attempt to pick me off and fail, you deserve punishment. So fight me. Don't run away. You might even win. But because you disappeared, we'll never know. Like I said, if playing like that makes you happy, do it regardless of what others think, including me.
PeggymoeXD wrote: »When it comes down to it, play the way you find most enjoyable. I judge gankers but only when I'm salty. And no, not because they've killed me, but because when they fail to destroy me with 1 or 2 hits, they disappear. I acknowledge this is a legitimate playstyle. It's just boring to me. If you're going to attempt to pick me off and fail, you deserve punishment. So fight me. Don't run away. You might even win. But because you disappeared, we'll never know. Like I said, if playing like that makes you happy, do it regardless of what others think, including me.
Assuming two players are of equal skill and the game is appropriately balanced, if a ganker fails to kill a build designed to 1v1 within 7 seconds, the 1v1 build wins 100 percent of the time. Why? Because their build, if good, is literally designed for sustained dps and resource management to excel in extended fights. Meanwhile the gank build is designed for short windows of extremely high burst forgoing the ability to sustain both dps and resources. This mentality you and most others in this thread have displayed is extraordinarily arrogant because it confuses your resource management stats(and ability to wear heavy armor with impent thanks to recent buffs) with skill. I completely understand being proud to survive a gank(assuming the ganker is using a full gank build and is of equal skil level), but there is no reason to be proud of killing a ganker when their only window of opportunity they should have had to kill you was missed. If they get any more opportunities, it is yourself that you should be mad at as either your build is inefficient or you misplayed.
It's not impressive to win a duel against a ganker using a gank build in the same way it's not impressive to gank someone using a 1v1 build. These are just things that are expected to happen if either the dueler or the ganker finds themselves in the appropriate scenario. We need to stop pretending stats aren't an important part of this game. This is an MMO. You are only as good as the armor you are wearing.If you don't believe that go into Cyrodiil with no gear. Good luck
This sort of reminds me of Hope Solo's recent comments about Sweden when USA lost their game...Lucius_Aelius wrote: »Okay I see one problem with communication, I'm being strict in my interpretation of running away being cowardly, but I'm not meaning to suggest that everyone who runs away is a coward, just being cowardly on that one occasion. If you always run away and never hold your ground ever, then you're a coward, but running away here and there when you usually stand your ground doesn't make you a coward at all. I can do a stupid thing, doesn't mean I'm stupid, just that the thing I did was stupid. If all I did were stupid things then I'd be stupid, but an occasional stupid thing while usually being smart doesn't necessarily mean anything negative (nobody's perfect).
But I just can't help but stand by my position that the bravest thing you can do is fight to the death knowing that your death is certain, in life or a game, you don't give up until you're dead. If you run you're doing the opposite of fighting to the death, and as such you're being the opposite of brave, i.e. cowardly. It just is what it is, not a judgement about people who do it unless they're always running away. And frankly what good is a teammate who always runs away from a fight? And having someone who always fights to the death can be just as unhelpful too if it leads to them getting killed all the time, knowing when to stand your ground and knowing when to turn tail and run is a part of what makes a good player. Running is sometimes a necessary evil if you want to win the war, it's never ideal to run but you don't always have a choice.
And of course what point is there in fighting fair if you're going to lose? In real life I mean, there is no incentive to play fair, there's only an incentive to win by any means necessary, and if you can cheat and be cowardly that usually means less of your people die, and as such it is often good strategy. But just because it's good strategy doesn't mean it's not cowardly, again not making you a coward unless you are always cowardly and never brave. It's a bit convoluted perhaps but it is what it is and there's no point in my mind mincing words about it and denying it as being what it is.
This. It's quite irritating that stam builds get to equip a few sets and are given the same burst that I have to sacrifice most of my regen to get...and I also have a short window that has a cooldown and rips through potions (I run clever alchemist).Problem is that actual burst of stam nb's makes them gankers who still can kill people in 2 seconds of open fight
A larger radius is fine, but that locking out stealth BS needs to go. Seriously, think about it in terms of other classes. What would happen if there were skills that could lock out templar's breath of life, dk's wings, and sorc's shields...the forums would explode. Let's not turn this into a nerf cloak thread, it rarely works properly and has enough counters as it is.Ganking is a non-interactive play style: either you kill your target in one burst, or you cloak and try someone else when your resources are back up. While sometimes you can catch the ganker after a failed attempt usually you're too busy breaking CC to get close enough to use the "counters" to cloak the game offers.
Flare would imo need a significant buff: lingering flare should have double (or triple) radius and last 30 seconds to make it worthwhile to slot.
eHeres a note to all my stam dk brethren out there. Equip heavy armor, block, cast igneous, drink major vitality potion, cast vigor, cast volitile armore, cast rally and proceed to stomp the ganker into the dirt.
Good tactic. Can You just explain how You want to do all of this while galloping on horse?