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Viper and Velidreth

  • GreenSoup2HoT
    GreenSoup2HoT
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    Proc set's are getting out of hand. We need pve players to do dps tests with these sets in comparison to say hunding rage or spawn of mehpala to make any changes.

    Velidrith in my opinion is INSANE and make's the ZOS team look like a bunch of 4 year old's. 6k none crit proc's in pvp is not a good thing. We don't have a single monster set capable of giving a player that much burst. I would of been fine with HALF the damage we have now and it would still be a good set. There is no monster set you can even compare to the power this set brings to the table. Spawn of Mephala in pve is comparable but in pvp your not standing in this web for more then 2 seconds. This set needs a huge nerf.

    Viper is fine in my opinion but im not opposed to a damage decrease.

    Widowmaker is fine BUT needs to have its own 10 second cool-down to stop people from proc'ing it on 2 different bars with 2 different poison cooldown's. This is why this set is over-performing. (Also make sure that double DOT poisons are only procing this set once and not twice). IF people do really like the functionality of having a poison on each bar to manage maybe a damage decrease instead.

    Coat of the red Mountain in my opinion is kind of underpowered BUT when used with Templar Jab's becomes possibly a little op. I will need a Stamplar to fill me in on this set since i have not used it and only heard my friends talk about it. I hear it proc's a lot with channals like Jabs or Flurry. May need looking into.

    Overall i think Velidrith is the main issue and the reason why stacking proc sets is overpowered. Stacking Viper with Widowmaker is nice burst but the proc change on Widow or even Red Mountain is pretty low so its not likely to happen often. Its all because of Velidrith in my opinion. Velidrith has the most outrageous tooltip damage. Seriously Zos i would be perfectly fine with half of that and it would still be a good set.

    Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on August 30, 2016 12:19AM
    PS4 NA DC
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Widowmaker_zpskk1baayf.gif

    ZoS: the company that brings its customer the armor set DoT procs that do more damage than actual skills.

    I think the guy using this in your death recap has shrouded daggers on both bars of his build. He probably proc'd one poison then bar swapped to proc another poison right away. Thats what i can see.

    The double proc poison on console doesnt seem to be procing widowmaker at all right now, so i cant test if its really proccing twice on pc for you. Is that why you crossed out the creep + ravage health?

    I didn't "cross out" anything. I underlined for all to see the ridiculousness of an armor set you are trying to imply is just fine. That's 10K additional damage in a single global cooldown with battlespirit on a build running 7 impen. It's a joke.
  • KisoValley
    KisoValley
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    KisoValley wrote: »
    Stamina is completely over performing at the moment, I agree it has a lot to do with the sets they have access too and the lack of counter sets as compared to things that counter mag builds. If you compare Stam vs mag on every class stam is winning and it's not really close.

    I want to have hope for update 12 balancing this out but it's been the trend for a long time.

    Magplar is stronger than any stam class atm. Stamplar is joint top with stamblade though in terms of stam builds.
    KisoValley wrote: »
    Stamina is completely over performing at the moment, I agree it has a lot to do with the sets they have access too and the lack of counter sets as compared to things that counter mag builds. If you compare Stam vs mag on every class stam is winning and it's not really close.

    I want to have hope for update 12 balancing this out but it's been the trend for a long time.

    Magplar is stronger than any stam class atm. Stamplar is joint top with stamblade though in terms of stam builds.
    KisoValley wrote: »
    Stamina is completely over performing at the moment, I agree it has a lot to do with the sets they have access too and the lack of counter sets as compared to things that counter mag builds. If you compare Stam vs mag on every class stam is winning and it's not really close.

    I want to have hope for update 12 balancing this out but it's been the trend for a long time.

    Magplar is stronger than any stam class atm. Stamplar is joint top with stamblade though in terms of stam builds.
    • Better group healing and group support? Yes.
    • Good at outnumbering opponents and full-health executing from range? You-betcha.
    • Better solo healing? Yes, but stamina has strong solo healing.
    • Consistent pressure and damage? Maybe.
    • Ability to set up high burst damage? Not really.
    • Access to a low cost, high burst ult? No.
    • Mobility and escape options? Lol.

    My conclusion: there is a reason magplars are often found in the wild roaming in packs of 10. Magicka templars are extremely strong in group scenarios and can make up for lack of precision with a lol heal button. But saying that they are better than stamina classes which are better in almost every other scenario (high burst, good healing, great mobility, strong pressure, etc.)? Nah.

    You, Siphon and Rag replied.

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  • GreenSoup2HoT
    GreenSoup2HoT
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    Widowmaker_zpskk1baayf.gif

    ZoS: the company that brings its customer the armor set DoT procs that do more damage than actual skills.

    I think the guy using this in your death recap has shrouded daggers on both bars of his build. He probably proc'd one poison then bar swapped to proc another poison right away. Thats what i can see.

    The double proc poison on console doesn't seem to be procing widowmaker at all right now, so i cant test if its really proccing twice on pc for you. Is that why you crossed out the creep + ravage health?

    I didn't "cross out" anything. I underlined for all to see the ridiculousness of an armor set you are trying to imply is just fine. That's 10K additional damage in a single global cooldown with battlespirit on a build running 7 impen. It's a joke.

    I was just commenting on the double proc you see in your combat log. Your "underlines" do look like your crossing out the effects of the Creeping Ravage Health poison and Ravage Health poison DoT's on your combat log... sorry.

    The issue with your image is that there is no light/heavy attack or weapon skill line ability being used between them. This is why i was wondering if the set was "double proc'ing" from 1 poison. The poison with 2 DoT's in one is not working on console at all to proc the widowmaker set. The damage is high yes but im wondering if there is a bug somewhere people are using to get more out of it then intended.

    For the record i do think the damage of these proc sets are way to high and disturbing the balance of the whole game.

    Also, players utilizing poisons on two bars to proc Widowmaker twice in quick succession may be somthing ZOS did not expect to happen. Widowmaker may need to have is own cool-down of 10 seconds to prevent this (or just a flat damage nerf as well works).

    I think Velidrith is the biggest offender out of all the proc set's though.
    Edited by GreenSoup2HoT on August 30, 2016 2:30AM
    PS4 NA DC
  • manny254
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    Proc set's are getting out of hand. We need pve players to do dps tests with these sets in comparison to say hunding rage or spawn of mehpala to make any changes.

    Velidrith in my opinion is INSANE and make's the ZOS team look like a bunch of 4 year old's. 6k none crit proc's in pvp is not a good thing. We don't have a single monster set capable of giving a player that much burst. I would of been fine with HALF the damage we have now and it would still be a good set. There is no monster set you can even compare to the power this set brings to the table. Spawn of Mephala in pve is comparable but in pvp your not standing in this web for more then 2 seconds. This set needs a huge nerf.

    Viper is fine in my opinion but im not opposed to a damage decrease.

    Widowmaker is fine BUT needs to have its own 10 second cool-down to stop people from proc'ing it on 2 different bars with 2 different poison cooldown's. This is why this set is over-performing. (Also make sure that double DOT poisons are only procing this set once and not twice). IF people do really like the functionality of having a poison on each bar to manage maybe a damage decrease instead.

    Coat of the red Mountain in my opinion is kind of underpowered BUT when used with Templar Jab's becomes possibly a little op. I will need a Stamplar to fill me in on this set since i have not used it and only heard my friends talk about it. I hear it proc's a lot with channals like Jabs or Flurry. May need looking into.

    Overall i think Velidrith is the main issue and the reason why stacking proc sets is overpowered. Stacking Viper with Widowmaker is nice burst but the proc change on Widow or even Red Mountain is pretty low so its not likely to happen often. Its all because of Velidrith in my opinion. Velidrith has the most outrageous tooltip damage. Seriously Zos i would be perfectly fine with half of that and it would still be a good set.

    Proc sets do not inherently yield more damage, and a PVE test would mean nothing. I believe vellidreth is strong in PVE, but the other sets are not going to actually yield practical PVE dps. What makes them strong in PVP is the ability to proc 2 or more together, and have high burst damage while still being able to build for sustain. The only weakness might be lower self healing, but the ability to combine some of these sets becomes creates a large amount of proced burst.

    I agree that velidreth is probably the worst designed set ZoS had implemented recently. (From a overpowered standpoint)
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Verds damage is about comparable to Valkyn, Basically Valkyn is AOE (Verd actually is not, it fires off 3 shots but first one that hits makes the other two disappear) and has a 5 second ICD, Verds is 10 second ICD. Verd is more burst though...but DPS is pretty much the same between the two.

  • Chuga_Rei
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    I dont want to have to fight anyone wearing. Vipers, valedrith, stormknight, maulbeth, mephalas, the one that always makes me floppy fish, etc etc.


    we just all need to be completely gearless.
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  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    Chuga_Rei wrote: »
    I dont want to have to fight anyone wearing. Vipers, valedrith, stormknight, maulbeth, mephalas, the one that always makes me floppy fish, etc etc.


    we just all need to be completely gearless.

    Just wait for the 17 new undaunted sets... Gonna have to add to that list haha.
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  • Derra
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    Viper's sting and Velidreth are worse than Malubeth before it was fixed.

    Widowmaker is actually a lot worse in my opinion. High burst aoe dmg coupled with a dmg poison aswell? Ok.

    Red Mountain is debateable but atleast it has a lower proccchance.
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  • arkansas_ESO
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    Anazasi wrote: »
    current meta is viper/ widowmaker/ validreath. The poison proc is unbelievable. It needs to be fixed.

    I disagree because Widowmaker doesn't come in impen and doesn't work on player-crafted poisons, only dropped ones. That being said, if it did drop in impen and worked on good poisons, it'd be unbelievably broken.


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  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Anazasi wrote: »
    current meta is viper/ widowmaker/ validreath. The poison proc is unbelievable. It needs to be fixed.

    I disagree because Widowmaker doesn't come in impen and doesn't work on player-crafted poisons, only dropped ones. That being said, if it did drop in impen and worked on good poisons, it'd be unbelievably broken.

    2.5.7 patch notes:
    Crafting & Economy
    Alchemy

    Fixed an issue that caused crafted Ravage Health poisons to not actually count as poisons for certain abilities, such as the unique Widowmaker set bonus.
  • CapuchinSeven
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    ManDraKE wrote: »

    Of everythign i said, that was your answer? IF you are going to jump into a balance discussion, you better have arguments to back your words. I tested and theorycrafted with viper for days, so you better do your homework before replying back

    OH please, theorycrafting lol.
    Lets stop pretending you're doing something special here, okay?
  • ManDraKE
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    ManDraKE wrote: »

    Of everythign i said, that was your answer? IF you are going to jump into a balance discussion, you better have arguments to back your words. I tested and theorycrafted with viper for days, so you better do your homework before replying back

    OH please, theorycrafting lol.
    Lets stop pretending you're doing something special here, okay?

    Is not something special, is just testing something before crying for a nerf. Well, all things considered, around here seems to be more rare than i expected, is quite obvious that most of the people here is just asking for a "nerf everything" just because.
  • Glory
    Glory
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    Widowmaker_zpskk1baayf.gif

    ZoS: the company that brings its customer the armor set DoT procs that do more damage than actual skills.

    Joy Division, was this on a single poison proc? If so, that sounds insane...

    KisoValley wrote: »
    KisoValley wrote: »
    Stamina is completely over performing at the moment, I agree it has a lot to do with the sets they have access too and the lack of counter sets as compared to things that counter mag builds. If you compare Stam vs mag on every class stam is winning and it's not really close.

    I want to have hope for update 12 balancing this out but it's been the trend for a long time.

    Magplar is stronger than any stam class atm. Stamplar is joint top with stamblade though in terms of stam builds.
    KisoValley wrote: »
    Stamina is completely over performing at the moment, I agree it has a lot to do with the sets they have access too and the lack of counter sets as compared to things that counter mag builds. If you compare Stam vs mag on every class stam is winning and it's not really close.

    I want to have hope for update 12 balancing this out but it's been the trend for a long time.

    Magplar is stronger than any stam class atm. Stamplar is joint top with stamblade though in terms of stam builds.
    KisoValley wrote: »
    Stamina is completely over performing at the moment, I agree it has a lot to do with the sets they have access too and the lack of counter sets as compared to things that counter mag builds. If you compare Stam vs mag on every class stam is winning and it's not really close.

    I want to have hope for update 12 balancing this out but it's been the trend for a long time.

    Magplar is stronger than any stam class atm. Stamplar is joint top with stamblade though in terms of stam builds.
    • Better group healing and group support? Yes.
    • Good at outnumbering opponents and full-health executing from range? You-betcha.
    • Better solo healing? Yes, but stamina has strong solo healing.
    • Consistent pressure and damage? Maybe.
    • Ability to set up high burst damage? Not really.
    • Access to a low cost, high burst ult? No.
    • Mobility and escape options? Lol.

    My conclusion: there is a reason magplars are often found in the wild roaming in packs of 10. Magicka templars are extremely strong in group scenarios and can make up for lack of precision with a lol heal button. But saying that they are better than stamina classes which are better in almost every other scenario (high burst, good healing, great mobility, strong pressure, etc.)? Nah.

    You, Siphon and Rag replied.

    I win 3-0

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    Congratulations on not contributing to a conversation and detracting from a forum thread? Sigh.

    Edited by Glory on August 30, 2016 1:43PM
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  • Hexys
    Hexys
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    Hexys wrote: »
    I have alot of clips ready to get edited using Viper/Veli/Eternal Hunt on stamblade. You will see how completely broken this is and should be nerfed ASAP.

    EDIT; Here is a clip, no skill required, just attack and win. (this is only 29.5k stamina and 2.7k buffed weapon damage, just LOL)



    Here you go, broken confirmed lol
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  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    Hexys wrote: »
    Hexys wrote: »
    I have alot of clips ready to get edited using Viper/Veli/Eternal Hunt on stamblade. You will see how completely broken this is and should be nerfed ASAP.

    EDIT; Here is a clip, no skill required, just attack and win. (this is only 29.5k stamina and 2.7k buffed weapon damage, just LOL)



    Here you go, broken confirmed lol

    Nice video, but pubstomp videos are a bad evidence for balance issues :P The classes and builds should be balanced around good players, not around bad players (I'm sure you could have down all the stuff in your video with another class and another build).
  • GreenSoup2HoT
    GreenSoup2HoT
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    Hexys wrote: »
    Hexys wrote: »
    I have alot of clips ready to get edited using Viper/Veli/Eternal Hunt on stamblade. You will see how completely broken this is and should be nerfed ASAP.

    EDIT; Here is a clip, no skill required, just attack and win. (this is only 29.5k stamina and 2.7k buffed weapon damage, just LOL)



    Here you go, broken confirmed lol

    Nice video, but pubstomp videos are a bad evidence for balance issues :P The classes and builds should be balanced around good players, not around bad players (I'm sure you could have down all the stuff in your video with another class and another build).

    I agree. This particular player could probably collect the same footage with a number of other sets and yield similar is not the same results.

    This set is very strong and most likely is in need of a damage nerf but i'm betting once one tamriel come's along there will be some sets to counter it. Think, each weapon skill line is getting an ultimate that is going to change the game big time in its own right. 16 new monster sets as well but also 3 sets will be obtain-able from each zone in the game (some new and old).

    This burst meta does need to be toned down but i'm betting ZOS is prioritizing balance in One Tamriel. Velidrith is like when Vicious Death and Proxi was a thing, it will probably get nerfed and blow over.
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  • Dreyloch
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    IMO:

    - Viper is not OP, 5 pieces with bad traits and bad bonuses for PvP (plus is bugged cause is scaling of spell critical/penetration). You have to sacrafice a lot in order to slot viper, it should be worth.

    - Velidreth is OP, 2 pieces, perfect traits and bonuses, hits harder than viper plus is an AoE.

    If your only going to run those 2 sets from the PvE pool, you don't have to sacrifice anything. Viper comes in weapons and jewelry. Now if your going to add widowmaker to the mix, then yeah, you need to make a choice VS. what traits you can live with because neither of those come in Impen.

    Edit: I guess if your sneaking around being a total *&%$$# then maybe you don't need impen. /shrug lol
    Sorry, I just hate gankers.
    Edited by Dreyloch on August 30, 2016 3:33PM
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  • CapuchinSeven
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    ManDraKE wrote: »

    Of everythign i said, that was your answer? IF you are going to jump into a balance discussion, you better have arguments to back your words. I tested and theorycrafted with viper for days, so you better do your homework before replying back

    OH please, theorycrafting lol.
    Lets stop pretending you're doing something special here, okay?

    Is not something special, is just testing something before crying for a nerf. Well, all things considered, around here seems to be more rare than i expected, is quite obvious that most of the people here is just asking for a "nerf everything" just because.

    Dude you lost all credibility here the moment you suggested that you have to sacrifice a lot to run viper, I mean there are lol posts and then there are LOL posts and that my friend was a big one.
  • Agrippa_Invisus
    Agrippa_Invisus
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    ManDraKE wrote: »

    Of everythign i said, that was your answer? IF you are going to jump into a balance discussion, you better have arguments to back your words. I tested and theorycrafted with viper for days, so you better do your homework before replying back

    OH please, theorycrafting lol.
    Lets stop pretending you're doing something special here, okay?

    Is not something special, is just testing something before crying for a nerf. Well, all things considered, around here seems to be more rare than i expected, is quite obvious that most of the people here is just asking for a "nerf everything" just because.

    Dude you lost all credibility here the moment you suggested that you have to sacrifice a lot to run viper, I mean there are lol posts and then there are LOL posts and that my friend was a big one.

    Agreed. The biggest loss in running Viper is how awful I find Argonian style items to look.

    My Viper pieces in my set are rings (both Robust), neck (also Robust), and my weapons/shield -- which are available in a variety of different traits. It's a matter of either a) farming for them or b) putting money down on the table for one with a good trait.

    The biggest sacrifice for Viper is acquiring them (time spent getting them or getting the gold to buy them). The same goes for Velidreth.
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  • manny254
    manny254
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    Obviously there is problem with the combination of sets, but to claim it doesn't require sacrifice is silly. It is arguable that the damage is made up for in procs, but you loose healing when you loose damage. With NB's already low healing if you where to get hit by dawnbreaker from a min maxed player you would fall over. Especially if they are carrying a good counter to cloak.

    Trust me I think it needs to be rebalanced, but we should avoid spreading ignorance.
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  • ManDraKE
    ManDraKE
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    ManDraKE wrote: »

    Of everythign i said, that was your answer? IF you are going to jump into a balance discussion, you better have arguments to back your words. I tested and theorycrafted with viper for days, so you better do your homework before replying back

    OH please, theorycrafting lol.
    Lets stop pretending you're doing something special here, okay?

    Is not something special, is just testing something before crying for a nerf. Well, all things considered, around here seems to be more rare than i expected, is quite obvious that most of the people here is just asking for a "nerf everything" just because.

    Dude you lost all credibility here the moment you suggested that you have to sacrifice a lot to run viper, I mean there are lol posts and then there are LOL posts and that my friend was a big one.

    how so? i provided a good explanation of why you sacrifice other things to run viper and why/when is viable/worth to use it, but i didn't see a single argument agaisnt that. Just "you are wrong, because.... just because". If you want to argue, go ahead, if you just want to troll and give stupid answers like that, get lost.
    Edited by ManDraKE on August 30, 2016 5:11PM
  • saiyan_84
    saiyan_84
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    dam im still running hundings... i guess im doing it wrong =(
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  • CapuchinSeven
    CapuchinSeven
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Obviously there is problem with the combination of sets, but to claim it doesn't require sacrifice is silly. It is arguable that the damage is made up for in procs, but you loose healing when you loose damage. With NB's already low healing if you where to get hit by dawnbreaker from a min maxed player you would fall over. Especially if they are carrying a good counter to cloak.

    Trust me I think it needs to be rebalanced, but we should avoid spreading ignorance.

    Mate, I can dodge roll around 12 times in my stamina build with Vigor ticking away (only 20 points in Tumbling and around 2.4k regen). I loose nothing when I'm slotting viper, except self respect but certainly not damage or survivability.

    I literally couldn't take it anymore, stamina is so comically damn easy I raced changed to Breton from Wood Elf and I'm running magic only now until they can balance this crap out.
  • Sandman929
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Obviously there is problem with the combination of sets, but to claim it doesn't require sacrifice is silly. It is arguable that the damage is made up for in procs, but you loose healing when you loose damage. With NB's already low healing if you where to get hit by dawnbreaker from a min maxed player you would fall over. Especially if they are carrying a good counter to cloak.

    Trust me I think it needs to be rebalanced, but we should avoid spreading ignorance.

    Mate, I can dodge roll around 12 times in my stamina build with Vigor ticking away (only 20 points in Tumbling and around 2.4k regen). I loose nothing when I'm slotting viper, except self respect but certainly not damage or survivability.

    I literally couldn't take it anymore, stamina is so comically damn easy I raced changed to Breton from Wood Elf and I'm running magic only now until they can balance this crap out.

    I don't see how anyone who runs both stam and mag can honestly say these sets aren't completely out of balance. Taken individually, they're as bad as VD at it's introduction. Combined, they're completely and ridiculously toxic.
    There was a constant uproar about the brokenness of Malubeth, and rightly so, but don't dare question the stam meta. Afterall, Malubeth let players stay alive....surely that's much worse than 2 button insta-death against many, right?
    Daggerfall Covenant - Xbox One NA
  • manny254
    manny254
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Obviously there is problem with the combination of sets, but to claim it doesn't require sacrifice is silly. It is arguable that the damage is made up for in procs, but you loose healing when you loose damage. With NB's already low healing if you where to get hit by dawnbreaker from a min maxed player you would fall over. Especially if they are carrying a good counter to cloak.

    Trust me I think it needs to be rebalanced, but we should avoid spreading ignorance.

    Mate, I can dodge roll around 12 times in my stamina build with Vigor ticking away (only 20 points in Tumbling and around 2.4k regen). I loose nothing when I'm slotting viper, except self respect but certainly not damage or survivability.

    I literally couldn't take it anymore, stamina is so comically damn easy I raced changed to Breton from Wood Elf and I'm running magic only now until they can balance this crap out.

    If I looked at you on my magicka templar or hit you with dawnbreaker on any stamina class you would fall over. Yes stamina is strong, but being ignorant is not going to solve anything.
    - Mojican

    -Ádamant
    -Viva la Venatus
    -Rip RÁGE
  • ManDraKE
    ManDraKE
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    manny254 wrote: »
    Obviously there is problem with the combination of sets, but to claim it doesn't require sacrifice is silly. It is arguable that the damage is made up for in procs, but you loose healing when you loose damage. With NB's already low healing if you where to get hit by dawnbreaker from a min maxed player you would fall over. Especially if they are carrying a good counter to cloak.

    Trust me I think it needs to be rebalanced, but we should avoid spreading ignorance.

    Mate, I can dodge roll around 12 times in my stamina build with Vigor ticking away (only 20 points in Tumbling and around 2.4k regen). I loose nothing when I'm slotting viper, except self respect but certainly not damage or survivability.

    I literally couldn't take it anymore, stamina is so comically damn easy I raced changed to Breton from Wood Elf and I'm running magic only now until they can balance this crap out.

    So, according to you, viper is OP because stamina builds can dodge roll and use vigor. OK!

    49609627.jpg

  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Widowmaker_zpskk1baayf.gif

    ZoS: the company that brings its customer the armor set DoT procs that do more damage than actual skills.

    Joy Division, was this on a single poison proc? If so, that sounds insane...

    It's worse. I don't know the exact mechanics but I got hit by at least 3 Widowmaker procs from the same person in a matter of seconds. Here is an unadulterated pic lest another person accuse me of subjective bias in exposing the ridiculousness of this set. Note: The third proc at the top of the log is low only because I was in mist form (still over 1000 damage despite mitigation from 50% Battle spirit, 75% mist form, Nord + CP + undeath, 7 impen, etc).

    widow_zpsozzsvjk8.jpg
  • kevlarto_ESO
    kevlarto_ESO
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    Between the broken sets and cheat engines dueling and small scale pvp will be interesting to say the least. :neutral:
  • CapuchinSeven
    CapuchinSeven
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    ManDraKE wrote: »
    manny254 wrote: »
    Obviously there is problem with the combination of sets, but to claim it doesn't require sacrifice is silly. It is arguable that the damage is made up for in procs, but you loose healing when you loose damage. With NB's already low healing if you where to get hit by dawnbreaker from a min maxed player you would fall over. Especially if they are carrying a good counter to cloak.

    Trust me I think it needs to be rebalanced, but we should avoid spreading ignorance.

    Mate, I can dodge roll around 12 times in my stamina build with Vigor ticking away (only 20 points in Tumbling and around 2.4k regen). I loose nothing when I'm slotting viper, except self respect but certainly not damage or survivability.

    I literally couldn't take it anymore, stamina is so comically damn easy I raced changed to Breton from Wood Elf and I'm running magic only now until they can balance this crap out.

    So, according to you, viper is OP because stamina builds can dodge roll and use vigor. OK!

    Straw man, I was responding to another point that Viper gives up on survivability, which it doesn't.
    You have zero legs to stand on and THIS is what you drop to, straw man arguments.

    Try that crap on someone that's not run Viper.
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