[PvE DPS] Ideal Mage CP distribution for stamina and magicka builds

Destruent · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

Don't forget about magplars, and they have a finisher (also DoT) to do even more DPS ^^

Joy_Division · February 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

Their definition of a DoT is reasonable. Jabs is not an instant-cast ability with all of its damage-up front, rather it is distributed over time. This is no mere semantic issue as even half decent players will be able to move and avoid some of the damage on a jab's tooltip even when the ability connects.

In general I think you are too good of a player to complain every time some in-game mechanics seems to buff non-sorcs and perceive any change to that status quo as a nerf to sorcerers.

Xeven · February 2016

eh, nevermind.

Dabilahro · March 2016

Have you done any testing into Warrior CP distribution? For example, would 50 points into light armor focus negate more physical damage than 50 points in hardy? Similarly, is spell shield comparable to elemental defender in negating magic damage?

Asayre · March 2016

Just some general advice since I don't know too many details of what you are thinking about

Most players will be looking to spend points in either Hardy, Elemental Defender or Thick-Skinned. Sorcerers will also be looking to spend points into Bastion. Not much can be said for Armour Focus or Spell Shield as a 100 points provides only 5281 resistance which corresponds to 8% mitigation at V16 which corresponds to 20 points in Hardy or Elemental Defender. In addition, Armour Focus and Spell Shield are affected by percentage penetration and are not taken into account when a damage shield is used.

Asayre · March 2016

I've moved this topic to the Combat & Character Mechanics forum because with the release of Thieves Guild I think a lot more people might find the spreadsheet useful. I've also created an additional one for stamina characters. A similar assumption (as for magicka builds) is made in that all your damage is based on stamina, weapon damage, physical penetration, weapon critical and weapon critical modifier. At the moment the spreadsheet for stamina is not that smart and will not always select Precise Strike jump points. When I find time in the future I'll teach it to only select jump points. The difference between the stamina and magicka spreadsheets are the addition of Elemental Expert as some stamina based builds such as Dragonknights rely heavily on fire damage. This means that you must divide your damage into a physical and elemental ratio that must add up to 1. Additionally, each of these components is divided into a non-DoT and DoT ratio (and in the case of physical damage also a weapon ratio).

@Fat_Cat45 provided me with a parse for a stamina DK with no CP assigned

From this parse, elemental ratio is 43% (Scorched Earth, Unstable Flame, Flames of Oblivion, Standard of Might). Elemental DoT ratio is 100%. Physical ratio is then 57% while physical DoT ratio is 93% and Weapon ratio is 7%. Using the spreadsheet, it suggest 6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 29 in Piercing, 31 in Precise Strikes and 86 in Thaumathurge. Note that 31 Precise Strikes is not a jump point and the closest is 29 so perhaps a better solution is 6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 30 in Piercing, 29 in Precise Strikes and 87 in Thaumathurge.

Since I've made the spreadsheet I've enjoyed viewing all the animals that have taken an interest in my spreadsheet

I've also been asked several times why the spreadsheet suggest such a large number of points be put into Spell Erosion. My general response was along the lines of wanting to optimise the function

which didn't really satisfy most people. I'll try to provide some insight into the function above to hopefully convince some people why Spell Erosion is not all too bad now. Since most people happily agree that Elemental Expert is the best star most of the concern is why shouldn't more points be allocated into Elfborn instead of Spell Erosion. Part of the reason that Spell Erosion is seen to be so bad is that pre-Thieves Guild it was undoubtedly the worse champion point and even I made a scathing remark about it in the Imperial City PTS. Only 1 point was ever recommended in it not because of any bugs but because there was no where else to spent it. But in the Thieves Guild update it has not only increased its effectiveness by 167% but also made to become more linear that is to say it suffers less from diminishing returns. This is quite clear from the figure below which shows the tooltip for Spell Erosion pre-Thieves Guild and post-Thieves Guild.

What this means is that at some point the diminishing returns from Elfborn makes it inferior to Spell Erosion thus my spreadsheet suggest putting points into Elfborn. If you were to reduce number of champion points in my spreadsheet you'll see that Spell Erosion will be the first to fall.

In summary, in the Thieves Guild patch the effectiveness of Spell Erosion was not only increased by 167% but it was also made more linear such that it suffers less from diminishing returns compared to Elfborn thus (for low'ish DoT builds) it is the 3rd strongest star after Elfborn.

tino.antoninieb17_ESO · March 2016

thx

remilafo · March 2016

book marked for later

Fat_Cat45 · March 2016

Asayre wrote: »

I've moved this topic to the Combat & Character Mechanics forum because with the release of Thieves Guild I think a lot more people might find the spreadsheet useful. I've also created an additional one for stamina characters. A similar assumption (as for magicka builds) is made in that all your damage is based on stamina, weapon damage, physical penetration, weapon critical and weapon critical modifier. At the moment the spreadsheet for stamina is not that smart and will not always select Precise Strike jump points. When I find time in the future I'll teach it to only select jump points. The difference between the stamina and magicka spreadsheets are the addition of Elemental Expert as some stamina based builds such as Dragonknights rely heavily on fire damage. This means that you must divide your damage into a physical and elemental ratio that must add up to 1. Additionally, each of these components is divided into a non-DoT and DoT ratio (and in the case of physical damage also a weapon ratio).

@Fat_Cat45 provided me with a parse for a stamina DK with no CP assigned

From this parse, elemental ratio is 43% (Scorched Earth, Unstable Flame, Flames of Oblivion, Standard of Might). Elemental DoT ratio is 100%. Physical ratio is then 57% while physical DoT ratio is 93% and Weapon ratio is 7%. Using the spreadsheet, it suggest 6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 29 in Piercing, 31 in Precise Strikes and 86 in Thaumathurge. Note that 31 Precise Strikes is not a jump point and the closest is 29 so perhaps a better solution is 6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 30 in Piercing, 29 in Precise Strikes and 87 in Thaumathurge.

Here's 3 dps tests using the above "6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 30 in Piercing, 29 in Precise Strikes and 87 in Thaumathurge."

Thief mundus, 7 divine pieces, 5-1-1, 5 Hunding's, 2x Night Mother, 2x Mael Dagger, Mael Bow.

These tests do not include any buffs from other players. The only debuff applied to the boss is major fracture from Ransack.

remilafo · March 2016

i spent a good portion of my night yesterday testing with backing from your data.. thanks man... i learned alot.

mertusta · March 2016

Thanks for the explanations. I wish i had worked maths in high school years..

Mulcibur · March 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

Their definition of a DoT is reasonable. Jabs is not an instant-cast ability with all of its damage-up front, rather it is distributed over time. This is no mere semantic issue as even half decent players will be able to move and avoid some of the damage on a jab's tooltip even when the ability connects.

In general I think you are too good of a player to complain every time some in-game mechanics seems to buff non-sorcs and perceive any change to that status quo as a nerf to sorcerers.

Curse and Proxy do not deal damage over time yet they are a DoT.

Septimus_Magna · March 2016

Mulcibur wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

Their definition of a DoT is reasonable. Jabs is not an instant-cast ability with all of its damage-up front, rather it is distributed over time. This is no mere semantic issue as even half decent players will be able to move and avoid some of the damage on a jab's tooltip even when the ability connects.

In general I think you are too good of a player to complain every time some in-game mechanics seems to buff non-sorcs and perceive any change to that status quo as a nerf to sorcerers.

Curse and Proxy do not deal damage over time yet they are a DoT.

So is dmg of Proxy Det increased by Elemental Expert (magic dmg) and Thaumaturge (dot dmg)?
Or is Thaumaturge the only CP tree that increases Proxy Det dmg?

And does mitigation work the same? So both Elemental Defender and Thick Skinned reduce Proxy Det dmg?

Mulcibur · March 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Mulcibur wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

Their definition of a DoT is reasonable. Jabs is not an instant-cast ability with all of its damage-up front, rather it is distributed over time. This is no mere semantic issue as even half decent players will be able to move and avoid some of the damage on a jab's tooltip even when the ability connects.

In general I think you are too good of a player to complain every time some in-game mechanics seems to buff non-sorcs and perceive any change to that status quo as a nerf to sorcerers.

Curse and Proxy do not deal damage over time yet they are a DoT.

So is dmg of Proxy Det increased by Elemental Expert (magic dmg) and Thaumaturge (dot dmg)?
Or is Thaumaturge the only CP tree that increases Proxy Det dmg?

And does mitigation work the same? So both Elemental Defender and Thick Skinned reduce Proxy Det dmg?

Proxy dmg is increased by both yes. Mitigation works the same too.

Asayre · March 2016

Your tooltip will show that all (magicka) abilities will increase with Elemental Expert and Thaumathurge but you'll need to verify your damage logs to make sure. Proxy Det's damage is increased by both Elemental Expert and Thaumathurge.

Mitigation works the same way. Proxy Det's damage will be reduced by Elemental Defender and Thick Skinned

Jhunn · March 2016

Impressive stuff @Asayre.

Fat_Cat45 · March 2016

From this parse, elemental ratio is 43% (Scorched Earth, Unstable Flame, Flames of Oblivion, Standard of Might). Elemental DoT ratio is 100%. Physical ratio is then 57% while physical DoT ratio is 93% and Weapon ratio is 7%. Using the spreadsheet, it suggest 6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 29 in Piercing, 31 in Precise Strikes and 86 in Thaumathurge. Note that 31 Precise Strikes is not a jump point and the closest is 29 so perhaps a better solution is 6 in Elemental Expert, 15 in Mighty, 30 in Piercing, 29 in Precise Strikes and 87 in Thaumathurge.

This fight used the same CP distribution as above.

Botak · March 2016

Asayre wrote: »

In summary, in the Thieves Guild patch the effectiveness of Spell Erosion was not only increased by 167% but it was also made more linear such that it suffers less from diminishing returns compared to Elfborn thus (for low'ish DoT builds) it is the 3rd strongest star after Elfborn.

Could I use the CP distribution spreadsheet for magicka sorc in PVP? or any suggestions?

Thanks

Asayre · March 2016

Sure, I don't PvP much but it seems that it is a widely held belief that shields are rampant so maybe less in Elfborn/Spell Erosion and more into Elemental Expert/Thaumathurge.

Strider_Roshin · March 2016

Xeven wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

On live, there are a few stamplars I know who are doing insane damage with Biting Jabs. As I understand it, this is a DOT and it's being buffed by both magic and DOT damge CP stars for a total of 50%.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is absurdly OP.

Put points in DoT dmg reduction?

I don't want to derail this thread, but I think ZOS's idea of a DOT is a bit off. Jabs is not a DOT. Make Frags a DOT too, and then we'll talk after they scrape your ass up off the floor of Nickle Outpost.

That or we can all just roll Stamplars. Sounds fun right? Don't be silly. Stamplar benefits most by far. Nobody else can do that with their main DPS ability.

No magicka Templars benefit most. They get jabs and radiant destruction, and soul assault is more power for magicka users than stamina.

Botak · March 2016

Asayre wrote: »

Sure, I don't PvP much but it seems that it is a widely held belief that shields are rampant so maybe less in Elfborn/Spell Erosion and more into Elemental Expert/Thaumathurge.

Hi @Asayre. Thanks your reply.

I was looking at the spreadsheet and I input the following (the other number are the same):

Number of Champion Points 85
Spell Critical Chance 0.4 (I think my character with my current gear only have about 40% ish spell crit)
Percentage Penetration 0.18 ( using nirnhorned legendary

The result CP from the spreadsheet:

Elemental Expert 78
Thaumathurge 1
Staff Expert 0
Elfborn 4
Spell Erosion 2

The Spell Erosion is only 2 points at this time. Does it mean that my spell penetrate 100% on the NPC or PC assuming they have 13000 spell resist?

Thank you very much

Asayre · March 2016

It's probably worthwhile to include the other inputs because I sometimes change it. You need to set character level to 66 for V16 enemies. 13000 spell resistance is quite low for PvP I would probably put it at around 18k. 2 points in Spell Erosion doesn't mean you have 100% penetration it just means that given the input parameters that is the ideal amount to invest into Spell Erosion

Botak · March 2016

Asayre wrote: »

It's probably worthwhile to include the other inputs because I sometimes change it. You need to set character level to 66 for V16 enemies. 13000 spell resistance is quite low for PvP I would probably put it at around 18k. 2 points in Spell Erosion doesn't mean you have 100% penetration it just means that given the input parameters that is the ideal amount to invest into Spell Erosion

Hi Asayre,

Thanks for your reply.

I keep everything else the same and I change the lvl to 66, Spell resistance to 18000, my spell critical about 40% or 0.4 critical chance and my CP 85.

The Spell Erosion value changed to 0.

Is this about right? Thanks again.

Asayre · March 2016

Sounds about right

Mulcibur · March 2016

Does the Percentage Penetration increase when using 2 nirn compared to 1? Duel wield vs staff

mertusta · March 2016

Mulcibur wrote: »

Does the Percentage Penetration increase when using 2 nirn compared to 1? Duel wield vs staff

Nope, they're equal. Staff has %18, one dual wield has %9, two dual wield %18. But you will get more spell damage from duel wield. (Percentages are for v16 legendary by the way.)

Mulcibur · March 2016

mertusta wrote: »

Mulcibur wrote: »

Does the Percentage Penetration increase when using 2 nirn compared to 1? Duel wield vs staff

Nope, they're equal. Staff has %18, one dual wield has %9, two dual wield %18. But you will get more spell damage from duel wield. (Percentages are for v16 legendary by the way.)

Thanks. Aware of the spell damage. Was just wondering about the penetration. If only sorc had a spammable aoe other than destro I wouldn't need to worry about a staff in PVP anymore. Can only duel wield when I solo.

TheSamael · March 2016

Asayre wrote: »

Please refer to http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2718988/#Comment_2718988

A link to the spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zp9v1Vp4Z7X6zfDfcxTwyAnejv-tEC5LujbXYBiVMDk/edit?usp=sharing

The ideal Mage CP distribution for magicka builds can be easily calculated by maximising the following function

I've done this at 501 CP for two common critical chances with Julianos for a range of Elemental, DoT and Staff Ratio. In order to use the results you need to determine the ratio of your damage that is based on DoTs and Staff attacks. I've assumed that 100% of you damage falls under Elemental. Once you know the DoT and Staff ratio simply look up the corresponding row and column in the table below and read off the ideal champion point distribution.

EE = Elemental Expert
T = Thaumathurge
S = Staff Expert
Elf = Elfborn
SE = Spell Erosion

Hope the table is reasonably understandable and helps everyone with optimising champion points!

Edit: This applies for a base critical modifier of 0.5 i.e. for Sorcerers and Dragonknights.

thx a lot but it does`t conform spreadsheet with the table, which one is more right? if i put 0 in DoT and Staff Ratio, critical chance 0.652, critical multiplier 0.5, % penetration 0.18 and no change to others. It gives EE-100, T-0, S-0, Elf-33, SE-34. But table says EE-100, T-0, S-0, Elf-46, SE-21. Which is right?)

Asayre · March 2016

The table was made in a slightly different way with slightly different parameters. You're most likely better off using the spreadsheet.

posthumecaver · April 2016

First of all thx or the awesome research before I was lost with the CPs and put points too many wrong things and with your input my damage increase a lot.

My main is a Sorc and I am only little bit confused with 'elfborn' it seems heavily investing in 'Elemental Defender' and 'Thermaxxx' is advantgeous mainly on DoT abilities which can be totally correct for DK and NB Magicka builds because they seem to be DoT heavy specs but Sorc has nice DoT abilities like Liquid Lightning, Boundless Storm and Wall of Elements but our major heavy hitters are Crytal Frag, Mage Wrath, Light Overload, shouldn't we invest more points to the ''Eflborn'?