D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »Are you suggesting that they remove the secondary buffs from potions and add them to a class skill so we must build around that as well? Either way i don't know if i speak for myself or for others, but i do not create my builds around the additional benefit from the pots and have enough sustain (usually) through gear and CP, and so i don't think this will have much of an effect because even if it was implemented i don't think i would change a thing
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »Are you suggesting that they remove the secondary buffs from potions and add them to a class skill so we must build around that as well? Either way i don't know if i speak for myself or for others, but i do not create my builds around the additional benefit from the pots and have enough sustain (usually) through gear and CP, and so i don't think this will have much of an effect because even if it was implemented i don't think i would change a thing
If you already build for pot-free sustain then yes, it will not have much effect on you.
But many high end players completely ignore skills that have a major regeneration benefit because they simply down pots every 45 seconds.
I think it's a good idea, since unlimited resources are a frequent complaint in PvP at least, and it seems unnecessary to have them on potions that already give you a sizable chunk of resource return.
It also would make certain skills more valuable than they are now.
Softcaps has been removed. Suffer now. Or enjoy, I don't know. I prefer to enjoy playing my supersustainable flexible character.
D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »Are you suggesting that they remove the secondary buffs from potions and add them to a class skill so we must build around that as well? Either way i don't know if i speak for myself or for others, but i do not create my builds around the additional benefit from the pots and have enough sustain (usually) through gear and CP, and so i don't think this will have much of an effect because even if it was implemented i don't think i would change a thing
If you already build for pot-free sustain then yes, it will not have much effect on you.
But many high end players completely ignore skills that have a major regeneration benefit because they simply down pots every 45 seconds.
I think it's a good idea, since unlimited resources are a frequent complaint in PvP at least, and it seems unnecessary to have them on potions that already give you a sizable chunk of resource return.
It also would make certain skills more valuable than they are now.
Could you list any specific situations in which people would drop a dps skill for this said regen skill? They do not ignore the major regen buff completely because they get it from a pot, they ignore the regen buff because an extra dps skill is a more viable option compared to added regen in almost all situations because of gear and CP.
Softcaps has been removed. Suffer now. Or enjoy, I don't know. I prefer to enjoy playing my supersustainable flexible character.
And as long as they're not present in the game, you'll get this problem. If the reason is because it makes PvE too restricted, then have softcaps in PvP only or something. It's silly to have 3.4K+ weapon damage, 2.8K+ regen, and 31K max stam. Damage, sustain, and mitigation all at once. Builds don't have any weaknesses anymore.
Alright, so one thing that annoys me alot is the meta of unlimited resources, especially in PvP. Since the introduction to the CP system, people can stack tons of points into their regen passives and basically get enough regen to never run out. This, by itself, would not be a problem, if they couldn't stack their maximum stamina/ magicka as well as their spell/ weapon dmg at the same time. This favors builds and classes that benefit from their maximum resources and spamming ability, which lead to PvP dominance of magicka sorcs who can spamm their shields or nightblades who can spamm their surprise attack forever. (I know other classes/ builds can also be strong, but those are the ones every has in this mind)
It's most likely common that well equipped builds hit the 40k resource mark in magicka/ stamina, with about 3-4.5 k weapon dmg or 3k Spell dmg as well as 2.5 k + regens in their main resource. As explained above, this means that especially players who don't have that much CP or players that don't have the time to grind to their CPs and gear are getting smashed by those with endgame status. The thing is, if a player chooses to go full glass cannon and be bursty, he should run out of his resources if he can't manage to kill his opponent quickly enough. Also, if he chooses to go for a sustain build, he should be able to outsustain his enemies and finish them by time.
I know that with the introduction to the non CP campaign people will be able to fight each other on the same level, but the described problem of beeing able to stack max resources, dmg and regens at the same time persists.
If one compares the current state of the game with the (often mentioned) 1.6 patch, what I see is that people can go fully into building around damage without having to worry about their resource management. So since this addresses a very fundamental system, combining item sets, buffs, CPs, classbalance etc and the regeneration varies from class to class, I'd like to state a pretty simple change, but that will go huge ways imo:
Remove the major regen buffs from potions.
I know that this will sound stupid at first, but have a closer look:
Right now, EVERY build, and I mean every build, as access to almost 100% uptime of all 3 major regen buffs just by using a potion every 45 seconds. This is a huge problem imo, since first this again favors players who have unlimited access to those over casual players and at the same time decreases the variations of builds by a lot. Since there is no need to equip skills that passively grant you major buffs (best example is green dragon blood), everyone just fits in another damage ability or empowering buff.
So if Zeni would decide to remove the buffs from potions, what would happen? First of all, every player that wants to have enough sustain will have to get those buffs through other ways. This would bring back intelligent building, in which you have to actually make decisions on wether you go for a full damage build or sacrifice another dmg ability for more sustain. An example would be a magicka sorc, using curse, frags, detonation and crushing shock, and has to give away one of those to buffs his magicka regen permanently. Removing the buffs from potions would also open up a huge opportunity to bring back skills that are never used in the current state (look at undaunted skill line, vampire skillline or soul magic skills, not to mention all those dead class abilites) to fill the place for the major regen buffs.
Well this suggestion will not fix the core problem of endless resources, but it would be an easy and effective step towards it, and as everyone knows, Zeni never fixes the core issues
Tell me what ya think!
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Alright, so one thing that annoys me alot is the meta of unlimited resources, especially in PvP. Since the introduction to the CP system, people can stack tons of points into their regen passives and basically get enough regen to never run out. This, by itself, would not be a problem, if they couldn't stack their maximum stamina/ magicka as well as their spell/ weapon dmg at the same time. This favors builds and classes that benefit from their maximum resources and spamming ability, which lead to PvP dominance of magicka sorcs who can spamm their shields or nightblades who can spamm their surprise attack forever. (I know other classes/ builds can also be strong, but those are the ones every has in this mind)
It's most likely common that well equipped builds hit the 40k resource mark in magicka/ stamina, with about 3-4.5 k weapon dmg or 3k Spell dmg as well as 2.5 k + regens in their main resource. As explained above, this means that especially players who don't have that much CP or players that don't have the time to grind to their CPs and gear are getting smashed by those with endgame status. The thing is, if a player chooses to go full glass cannon and be bursty, he should run out of his resources if he can't manage to kill his opponent quickly enough. Also, if he chooses to go for a sustain build, he should be able to outsustain his enemies and finish them by time.
I know that with the introduction to the non CP campaign people will be able to fight each other on the same level, but the described problem of beeing able to stack max resources, dmg and regens at the same time persists.
If one compares the current state of the game with the (often mentioned) 1.6 patch, what I see is that people can go fully into building around damage without having to worry about their resource management. So since this addresses a very fundamental system, combining item sets, buffs, CPs, classbalance etc and the regeneration varies from class to class, I'd like to state a pretty simple change, but that will go huge ways imo:
Remove the major regen buffs from potions.
I know that this will sound stupid at first, but have a closer look:
Right now, EVERY build, and I mean every build, as access to almost 100% uptime of all 3 major regen buffs just by using a potion every 45 seconds. This is a huge problem imo, since first this again favors players who have unlimited access to those over casual players and at the same time decreases the variations of builds by a lot. Since there is no need to equip skills that passively grant you major buffs (best example is green dragon blood), everyone just fits in another damage ability or empowering buff.
So if Zeni would decide to remove the buffs from potions, what would happen? First of all, every player that wants to have enough sustain will have to get those buffs through other ways. This would bring back intelligent building, in which you have to actually make decisions on wether you go for a full damage build or sacrifice another dmg ability for more sustain. An example would be a magicka sorc, using curse, frags, detonation and crushing shock, and has to give away one of those to buffs his magicka regen permanently. Removing the buffs from potions would also open up a huge opportunity to bring back skills that are never used in the current state (look at undaunted skill line, vampire skillline or soul magic skills, not to mention all those dead class abilites) to fill the place for the major regen buffs.
Well this suggestion will not fix the core problem of endless resources, but it would be an easy and effective step towards it, and as everyone knows, Zeni never fixes the core issues
Tell me what ya think!
I think your premise is wrong. Players can stack individual stats, but they can't stack ALL of them at once. My current sorc build stacks magicka all the way up to 48K, but I have to endure 1300 regen and 2500 spell damage. My old build could stack spell damage all the way to 3500, but my magicka was only around 40K.... see how that works? I would love to have 48K magicka, 3500 spell damage and 2500 regen, but I can't have those all at once, so I don't even understand what you are complaining about.
All you guys asking for regen nerfs forget what ESO was like at launch... you could run out of magicka and die just fighting some random troll or swarm of wasps. It was HORRIBLE. Endgame players back then depended on gear like Warlock, Arch-Mage and Desert Rose to sustain their fancy "magicka battery" builds, but all that gear has been nerfed hard since then, and it ain't coming back. Potions had much shorter cooldowns, too, and those days ain't coming back either.
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Alright, so one thing that annoys me alot is the meta of unlimited resources, especially in PvP. Since the introduction to the CP system, people can stack tons of points into their regen passives and basically get enough regen to never run out. This, by itself, would not be a problem, if they couldn't stack their maximum stamina/ magicka as well as their spell/ weapon dmg at the same time. This favors builds and classes that benefit from their maximum resources and spamming ability, which lead to PvP dominance of magicka sorcs who can spamm their shields or nightblades who can spamm their surprise attack forever. (I know other classes/ builds can also be strong, but those are the ones every has in tdamagend)
It's most likely common that well equipped builds hit the 40k resource mark in magicka/ stamina, with about 3-4.5 k weapon dmg or 3k Spell dmg as well as 2.5 k + regens in their main resource. As explained above, this means that especially players who don't have that much CP or players that don't have the time to grind to their CPs and gear are getting smashed by those with endgame status. The thing is, if a player chooses to go full glass cannon and be bursty, he should run out of his resources if he can't manage to kill his opponent quickly enough. Also, if he chooses to go for a sustain build, he should be able to outsustain his enemies and finish them by time.
I know that with the introduction to the non CP campaign people will be able to fight each other on the same level, but the described problem of beeing able to stack max resources, dmg and regens at the same time persists.
If one compares the current state of the game with the (often mentioned) 1.6 patch, what I see is that people can go fully into building around damage without having to worry about their resource management. So since this addresses a very fundamental system, combining item sets, buffs, CPs, classbalance etc and the regeneration varies from class to class, I'd like to state a pretty simple change, but that will go huge ways imo:
Remove the major regen buffs from potions.
I know that this will sound stupid at first, but have a closer look:
Right now, EVERY build, and I mean every build, as access to almost 100% uptime of all 3 major regen buffs just by using a potion every 45 seconds. This is a huge problem imo, since first this again favors players who have unlimited access to those over casual players and at the same time decreases the variations of builds by a lot. Since there is no need to equip skills that passively grant you major buffs (best example is green dragon blood), everyone just fits in another damage ability or empowering buff.
So if Zeni would decide to remove the buffs from potions, what would happen? First of all, every player that wants to have enough sustain will have to get those buffs through other ways. This would bring back intelligent building, in which you have to actually make decisions on wether you go for a full damage build or sacrifice another dmg ability for more sustain. An example would be a magicka sorc, using curse, frags, detonation and crushing shock, and has to give away one of those to buffs his magicka regen permanently. Removing the buffs from potions would also open up a huge opportunity to bring back skills that are never used in the current state (look at undaunted skill line, vampire skillline or soul magic skills, not to mention all those dead class abilites) to fill the place for the major regen buffs.
Well this suggestion will not fix the core problem of endless resources, but it would be an easy and effective step towards it, and as everyone knows, Zeni never fixes the core issues
Tell me what ya think!
I think your premise is wrong. Players can stack individual stats, but they can't stack ALL of them at once. My current sorc build stacks magicka all the way up to 48K, but I have to endure 1300 regen and 2500 spell damage. My old build could stack spell damage all the way to 3500, but my magicka was only around 40K.... see how that works? I would love to have 48K magicka, 3500 spell damage and 2500 regen, but I can't have those all at once, so I don't even understand what you are complaining about.
All you guys asking for regen nerfs forget what ESO was like at launch... you could run out of magicka and die just fighting some random troll or swarm of wasps. It was HORRIBLE. Endgame players back then depended on gear like Warlock, Arch-Mage and Desert Rose to sustain their fancy "magicka battery" builds, but all that gear has been nerfed hard since then, and it ain't coming back. Potions had much shorter cooldowns, too, and those days ain't coming back either.
I think it's a good idea, since unlimited resources are a frequent complaint in PvP at least
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »Alright, so one thing that annoys me alot is the meta of unlimited resources, especially in PvP. Since the introduction to the CP system, people can stack tons of points into their regen passives and basically get enough regen to never run out. This, by itself, would not be a problem, if they couldn't stack their maximum stamina/ magicka as well as their spell/ weapon dmg at the same time. This favors builds and classes that benefit from their maximum resources and spamming ability, which lead to PvP dominance of magicka sorcs who can spamm their shields or nightblades who can spamm their surprise attack forever. (I know other classes/ builds can also be strong, but those are the ones every has in tdamagend)
It's most likely common that well equipped builds hit the 40k resource mark in magicka/ stamina, with about 3-4.5 k weapon dmg or 3k Spell dmg as well as 2.5 k + regens in their main resource. As explained above, this means that especially players who don't have that much CP or players that don't have the time to grind to their CPs and gear are getting smashed by those with endgame status. The thing is, if a player chooses to go full glass cannon and be bursty, he should run out of his resources if he can't manage to kill his opponent quickly enough. Also, if he chooses to go for a sustain build, he should be able to outsustain his enemies and finish them by time.
I know that with the introduction to the non CP campaign people will be able to fight each other on the same level, but the described problem of beeing able to stack max resources, dmg and regens at the same time persists.
If one compares the current state of the game with the (often mentioned) 1.6 patch, what I see is that people can go fully into building around damage without having to worry about their resource management. So since this addresses a very fundamental system, combining item sets, buffs, CPs, classbalance etc and the regeneration varies from class to class, I'd like to state a pretty simple change, but that will go huge ways imo:
Remove the major regen buffs from potions.
I know that this will sound stupid at first, but have a closer look:
Right now, EVERY build, and I mean every build, as access to almost 100% uptime of all 3 major regen buffs just by using a potion every 45 seconds. This is a huge problem imo, since first this again favors players who have unlimited access to those over casual players and at the same time decreases the variations of builds by a lot. Since there is no need to equip skills that passively grant you major buffs (best example is green dragon blood), everyone just fits in another damage ability or empowering buff.
So if Zeni would decide to remove the buffs from potions, what would happen? First of all, every player that wants to have enough sustain will have to get those buffs through other ways. This would bring back intelligent building, in which you have to actually make decisions on wether you go for a full damage build or sacrifice another dmg ability for more sustain. An example would be a magicka sorc, using curse, frags, detonation and crushing shock, and has to give away one of those to buffs his magicka regen permanently. Removing the buffs from potions would also open up a huge opportunity to bring back skills that are never used in the current state (look at undaunted skill line, vampire skillline or soul magic skills, not to mention all those dead class abilites) to fill the place for the major regen buffs.
Well this suggestion will not fix the core problem of endless resources, but it would be an easy and effective step towards it, and as everyone knows, Zeni never fixes the core issues
Tell me what ya think!
I think your premise is wrong. Players can stack individual stats, but they can't stack ALL of them at once. My current sorc build stacks magicka all the way up to 48K, but I have to endure 1300 regen and 2500 spell damage. My old build could stack spell damage all the way to 3500, but my magicka was only around 40K.... see how that works? I would love to have 48K magicka, 3500 spell damage and 2500 regen, but I can't have those all at once, so I don't even understand what you are complaining about.
All you guys asking for regen nerfs forget what ESO was like at launch... you could run out of magicka and die just fighting some random troll or swarm of wasps. It was HORRIBLE. Endgame players back then depended on gear like Warlock, Arch-Mage and Desert Rose to sustain their fancy "magicka battery" builds, but all that gear has been nerfed hard since then, and it ain't coming back. Potions had much shorter cooldowns, too, and those days ain't coming back either.
The additional 8k magicka over 40k is worth much more than the 1k spell damage from 3500 to 2500. Your shields benefit a lot from magicka, much more than spell dmg....
Well if you believe half the people in this thread it wouldn't make any difference anyway, so one wonders why it is even on potions to start with if that is the case.
"It won't make any difference, don't get rid of it though!"
hmm....
HeroOfNone wrote: »You still have several abilities that give the major regeneration buff for various stats, plus you risk hurting PVE this way. If you'd like to affect just PVP and not PVE I recommend adding a 50% to 60% regen & resource generating abilities (battle roar, templar spears, etc.) reduction in battle spirit and then increase armor values by 150% to 200%.
You should see burst builds decline, hybrid & tank builds increase, and few builds able to outlast (assuming we reduce regeneration enough).
HeroOfNone wrote: »You still have several abilities that give the major regeneration buff for various stats, plus you risk hurting PVE this way. If you'd like to affect just PVP and not PVE I recommend adding a 50% to 60% regen & resource generating abilities (battle roar, templar spears, etc.) reduction in battle spirit and then increase armor values by 150% to 200%.
You should see burst builds decline, hybrid & tank builds increase, and few builds able to outlast (assuming we reduce regeneration enough).
No.... not really, players would simply readjust their stats because that's rediculously easy to do. My own build would be buffed tremendously, gaining a whole lot of armor, sacrificing some magicka for regen and freeing up a slot from Harness, where I then put Radiant Magelight. Meaning I would be more tanky, especially against stamina builds wich are otherwise my weakness, and deal more damage as well.
HeroOfNone wrote: »HeroOfNone wrote: »You still have several abilities that give the major regeneration buff for various stats, plus you risk hurting PVE this way. If you'd like to affect just PVP and not PVE I recommend adding a 50% to 60% regen & resource generating abilities (battle roar, templar spears, etc.) reduction in battle spirit and then increase armor values by 150% to 200%.
You should see burst builds decline, hybrid & tank builds increase, and few builds able to outlast (assuming we reduce regeneration enough).
No.... not really, players would simply readjust their stats because that's rediculously easy to do. My own build would be buffed tremendously, gaining a whole lot of armor, sacrificing some magicka for regen and freeing up a slot from Harness, where I then put Radiant Magelight. Meaning I would be more tanky, especially against stamina builds wich are otherwise my weakness, and deal more damage as well.
I'd be looking to reduce harness magicka as well. ANY resource generating abilities would be facing a 50% to 60% reduction in their gain (open to raise or lower the bar, depending on results).
The armor gain will be good however, you'll take less damage, but will you be able to dish it out? Those high cost abilities won't be ready if you don't heavy weave or stack on regeneration runes instead of weapon power/spell power ones. If you cast a couple healing spells to stay up you may be out of magic when someone hits a burst phase. Try to block though too much and you have no stamina to CC break when the knock you down and chop away with light or heavy attacks.
Cutting out the resources and raising the mitigation changes a LOT, changing your average 10 second fight into possibly a minute long slug fest. Some builds of today may not survive, but that's why you adapt.