Nightblades - A word about class roles

Lord-Otto · December 2015

Hello, y'all, hope you had a nice Chris'mas!
(^o^)/

I wanna use the space here to clarify something that is bugging me every now and then in the multitude of class rebalancing threads, especially those about Nightblades.

Okay, so I hear quite often that Nightblades should be good at hit&running and ganking, because that is their intended role as a rogue/hunter/nightblade/assassin/whatever class. I have two objections here.

First. Nightblades are the only class being granted the favor of having a functioning imaginary role. The statement about the assassin class comes from a long-term rpg standard, so same rules should apply to everyone. Which means, if you can gank and hide and ambush, Sorcerers should be able to nuke the battlefield. Fireball, anyone? A Dragonknight (Warrior) should be able to withstand a zerg. A Templar/Healer should be the EXCLUSIVE healer. Especially Sorcs and DKs are being treated unfair here. Tanky DKs have fallen prey to balancing, okay. But Sorc never had the ranged AoE of mass destruction that the typical rpg class cannon staff sorcerer is known for. Frankly, AoE in this game is especially reserved for close-range fighters.
And that is okay. Because ESO follows in Elder Scrolls' footsteps here and allows some unconventional combinations (stamina sorc). This means balancing is complicated and rpg clichés have to make way for gameplay purposes, so no fireballs or chain lightning. But this also means that nightblades do not have a right to defend their very powerful class with the argument it would befit the intended role. I understand your wish for it to be so, but this is utterly unfair in the light of the other classes.

Second. Nightblades actually extend their original role. By far. An assassin class is someone who prepares for that swift strike, kills, and gets out fast. So far, so good. But nightblades also can stand their ground in open combat or flee even when they messed up. And not against single targets, against groups. An assassin should be like a shadow and not be seen. This is his defense. Hers. Being detected should get you killed, contributing to that high-risk/high-reward-phrase gaming developers love so much. Only that this is not the case.
At the moment, a nightblade, especially stamina, is gifted with the very powerful ability to pseudo-oneshot even the strongest players. I say "pseudo" because it's not just one shot hitting, but anything that kills you in a second is a oneshot to me, it's semantics only. They also get fast movement to get in position. So far, so good. But here's the thing, there is no balancing this out. In fact, nightblades are just as good in open combat as the other classes. The best, spammable gap closer, the best cc (which directly bites with the "one shot, one kill mentality of an assassin), the best AoE (if stamina) and serious sustain (Sap, Vigor, passives) make sure of that. And even if you get yourself into a bad position, you can easily get out with cloak. Actually, nightblades these days are low risk, high reward and certainly not your standard assassin.

I am not here to provide a philosopher's stone or something. Just wanted to point out that those two specific points are rather imprecise and the community is being a bit... well, hypocritic sounds a bit harsh, but that's essentially it. This is not meant as an insult, just a lack of better words. We can argue all day about how nightblades should be balanced, but I hopefully just made clear that arguments like "OMG, an assassin class is good at ganking? ROFL!" are plain wrong and do not contribute towards a constructive discussion. Therefore, should be avoided.

That's it for me, have a nice day!
(^_^)/

omfgitsbatman · December 2015

The things that make a stam nightblade able to survive open combat are not class specific skills. Roll dodge, vigor, rally. That is what makes a stam nightblade survive so well in open combat. Nerfing any nightblade abilities will not change how survivable they are. Cloak is OP right now against someone who isn't running counters, but nerfing cloak won't do anything about nb's being able to both assassinate and hold their ground. The ability to hold ground is inherent in the weapon/guild/armor/pvp trees, and is in no way unique to nightblades.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: Even if you nerfed every nb skill into the ground, they will still wrecking blow you from crouched stealth, use evasion to be able to take more hits if they mess up, dodge roll to avoid/get away, vigor and rally to heal themselves. If you took nb's completely out of the equation, this kind of build would still be around. It's mainly nb's right now, because passives make them the best at it, but if nb's were to get removed from the game tomorrow, people would just play a similar build on a different class.

Lirkin · December 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

The things that make a stam nightblade able to survive open combat are not class specific skills. Roll dodge, vigor, rally. That is what makes a stam nightblade survive so well in open combat. Nerfing any nightblade abilities will not change how survivable they are. Cloak is OP right now against someone who isn't running counters, but nerfing cloak won't do anything about nb's being able to both assassinate and hold their ground. The ability to hold ground is inherent in the weapon/guild/armor/pvp trees, and is in no way unique to nightblades.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: Even if you nerfed every nb skill into the ground, they will still wrecking blow you from crouched stealth, use evasion to be able to take more hits if they mess up, dodge roll to avoid/get away, vigor and rally to heal themselves. If you took nb's completely out of the equation, this kind of build would still be around. It's mainly nb's right now, because passives make them the best at it, but if nb's were to get removed from the game tomorrow, people would just play a similar build on a different class.

Nice points!!!

Stop the nerf threads because of PVP or make changes just to PVP abilities.

QuebraRegra · December 2015

your role is what you make it.... I had a magicka NB healer/debuffer and was generally loved for it, and he was fun to play as as a support character.

DannyLV702 · December 2015

I seriously enjoyed reading this lol. Would be dope seeing all this implemented and actually working out

Cathexis · December 2015

I fully agree with the OP. Nightblade survivability is far to high if they want to defend the role of being an assassin.

Furthermore, the removal of soft caps and the onset of damage stacking and instant kill mentality has reduced the value of all other roles in pvp beyond dps. It is a lazy form of combat that has been systematically ruining the quality of pvp combat.

Edit; to clarify however I think they dedicated class roles are fundamentally bad and that classes should have dedicated styles for all roles (tanking, healing, and dps).

shugg · December 2015

Intresring however your focusing on one tree, i play a syphon tank nb and dont feel like a stealthy killer at all if anything its like a drain tank which is what i wanted. I think class roles is a bad idea, tried a dk tank and tbh i found it boaring.

Lord-Otto · December 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

The things that make a stam nightblade able to survive open combat are not class specific skills. Roll dodge, vigor, rally. That is what makes a stam nightblade survive so well in open combat. Nerfing any nightblade abilities will not change how survivable they are. Cloak is OP right now against someone who isn't running counters, but nerfing cloak won't do anything about nb's being able to both assassinate and hold their ground. The ability to hold ground is inherent in the weapon/guild/armor/pvp trees, and is in no way unique to nightblades.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: Even if you nerfed every nb skill into the ground, they will still wrecking blow you from crouched stealth, use evasion to be able to take more hits if they mess up, dodge roll to avoid/get away, vigor and rally to heal themselves. If you took nb's completely out of the equation, this kind of build would still be around. It's mainly nb's right now, because passives make them the best at it, but if nb's were to get removed from the game tomorrow, people would just play a similar build on a different class.

I do not necessarily disagree, in fact, I agree with the point of stamina skills in general being too good. But Nightblades, as you said yourself, underline those imbalances more than any other class. Brutal gap closer stunlocks and mass cc along with an extreme escape and passives. Mind you, you can counter cloak somewhat, but that will always weaken your build. A bit unfair considering cloak has no weakness like this.

CamBam370 · December 2015

shugg wrote: »

Intresring however your focusing on one tree, i play a syphon tank nb and dont feel like a stealthy killer at all if anything its like a drain tank which is what i wanted. I think class roles is a bad idea, tried a dk tank and tbh i found it boaring.

That is odd but it could work

Shunravi · December 2015

CamBam370 wrote: »

shugg wrote: »

Intresring however your focusing on one tree, i play a syphon tank nb and dont feel like a stealthy killer at all if anything its like a drain tank which is what i wanted. I think class roles is a bad idea, tried a dk tank and tbh i found it boaring.

That is odd but it could work

Its not odd, sap tank is quite effective.

Stannum · December 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

CamBam370 wrote: »

shugg wrote: »

Intresring however your focusing on one tree, i play a syphon tank nb and dont feel like a stealthy killer at all if anything its like a drain tank which is what i wanted. I think class roles is a bad idea, tried a dk tank and tbh i found it boaring.

That is odd but it could work

Its not odd, sap tank is quite effective.

End pack of sap tanks is really OP

Prabooo · December 2015

Cyborgdoom · December 2015

c00lmon wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Stop the nerf threads because of PVP or make changes just to PVP abilities.

I agree, that is the main issue with this game. Just because you can't beat someone, do to a certain skill or ability a particular class has doesn't mean the game is broken or that it needs to be nerfed. It just means you need to get better at counter acting the ability or skill.

OR simply face the facts that you aren't as good as you thought you were.

Autolycus · December 2015

Cloak doesn't always work. Tired of seeing posts claiming it does. Cloak works against people who don't know how to counter it, or in situations where the NB has intentionally set themselves up to take advantage of cloak.

I kill NBs who try to cloak away all the time. People kill me sometimes when I try to cloak away. That's really all there is to it. There's nothing wrong with cloak.

omfgitsbatman · January 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

The things that make a stam nightblade able to survive open combat are not class specific skills. Roll dodge, vigor, rally. That is what makes a stam nightblade survive so well in open combat. Nerfing any nightblade abilities will not change how survivable they are. Cloak is OP right now against someone who isn't running counters, but nerfing cloak won't do anything about nb's being able to both assassinate and hold their ground. The ability to hold ground is inherent in the weapon/guild/armor/pvp trees, and is in no way unique to nightblades.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is: Even if you nerfed every nb skill into the ground, they will still wrecking blow you from crouched stealth, use evasion to be able to take more hits if they mess up, dodge roll to avoid/get away, vigor and rally to heal themselves. If you took nb's completely out of the equation, this kind of build would still be around. It's mainly nb's right now, because passives make them the best at it, but if nb's were to get removed from the game tomorrow, people would just play a similar build on a different class.

I do not necessarily disagree, in fact, I agree with the point of stamina skills in general being too good. But Nightblades, as you said yourself, underline those imbalances more than any other class. Brutal gap closer stunlocks and mass cc along with an extreme escape and passives. Mind you, you can counter cloak somewhat, but that will always weaken your build. A bit unfair considering cloak has no weakness like this.

I don't think running a counter to cloak weakens your build, considering any aoe is a counter. The Detect pots that increase spell damage actually help my build. How many builds run caltrops already? Daedric Curse is already in sorc builds everywhere because it hits crazy hard. If you only pvp, then running radiant mage light as a magicka build is a great counter that also buffs your crit.

Regardless, this is not a post about cloak. This post is calling for a nerf of a playstyle. This playstyle will not go away with the nerfing of nightblades. Crit charge is a pretty extreme gap closer. A list of other mass CC's: Negate, Dragon Leap, Streak, Volcanic rune, Meteor, Roar, and I'm sure I'm missing a few. Mist form is a pretty awesome escape.

I play a magicka nb. If you were to nerf every single nb skill to the point of unusable, I would run a build something like this: Crushing shock, Flame clench, volcanic rune, Mistform, Radiant Mage Light, Ice Comet
Healing ward, Harness Magicka, Rapid regen, Proxy Det, Radiant Mage Light, Stealth Bats

So, I would still have mass CC with volcanic rune and ice comet, still have escape with bats/mistform/vamp stealth... Not a lot would change.

davey1107 · January 2016

Nightblades are the only class being granted the favor of having a functioning imaginary role.

Did you think about that statement before launching your arguments? Because...dragonknight = tank...sorc = healer or mega-dps...etc. The class skills for all four classes define three functioning imaginary roles, and offer the players a start in defining their own character build.

Secondly, there is nothing stopping other classes from acting as hide-n-gankers. There are less ambush options, but there are plenty of range attacks that can stun and give time to close a gap. I don't see many Templars or Sorcs sneaking...but it can be done. Don't fault Nightblades because players aren't using other classes very creatively.

Thirdly, your second point is essentially that Nightblades should attack fast and hard and then escape. Then you spend two hundred words complaining about Nighblades attacking fast and hard and escaping. Ha. But seriously...as other posters point out...the abilities you complain about are open to all classes. It creates the opportunity for customization that makes ESO awesome. I worked HARD for Vigor for my NB. It took forever. Are you suggesting that my nightblade should be denied a skill open to the other three classes because it makes me tough to kill? Building a character that is tough to kill is...kinda the point.

I absolutely defend the Nightblades' right to enjoy skills that make them awesome sneak-killers. It's created a class that keeps players on edge and on their toes in PVP, as should be the case. Trust me, there are a lot of great p,Akers who make my NB's life miserable. If they're killing you too much, learn to counter them, and be more careful. I have like ten tips that will make you awesome at this. But I'm a nightblade, so...

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2016

Here's what the thread is in a nutshell. NBs are OP they can fill the other 3 classes roles just as well if not better. NB healers check, NB DPS both magical and physical check, NB tank check.

Why play any other class ? NBs are all 4 classes into 1. Isn't that the best thing ever ?

/end sarcasm

Darkius · January 2016

I really don't understand some of the points here made by you OP:

- Strongest AOE? Are you referring to Steel Tornado which is available to all classes?

- "But this also means that nightblades do not have a right to defend their very powerful class with the argument it would befit the intended role. I understand your wish for it to be so, but this is utterly unfair in the light of the other classes."
I don't get this (and lol btw). You are right in the fact that ESO is different, so usually in PvP Templars are the healers, but you can get some DPS with Stamplar, DKs are the tanks, but they can DPS with Stam medium armor DK, and Sorcs can be a mixture of high mobility, tanking and/or damage. But now NBs can't be DPS/burst?! (or Magicka sneaky/siphoning healers?)

- 2, 3 shots kills? Assuming champion points are equal, that doesn't really happen. Unless camo proc from stealth, no shields, bad CC breaking, or a combination of these factors. Snipers can accomplish that, but if you avoid the second attack they're usually too noob to do any thing when you fight back. Gankers are gonna gank. Endure and fight back and they crumble.

- "But nightblades also can stand their ground in open combat or flee even when they messed up." Where does this come from

? Of course if they are allowed to cloak freely, this happens. Want to kill a NB? Choose one of the many counters to their cloaking. It's that simple. If they run away fast, that's Maneuvers, not a NB problem. High evasion? So do Stam DKs in medium armor.
Again it seems their ability to escape from you is helped by non-class abilities or your refusal to use a cloak counter.

I am open to giving tips on killing NBs if they give you so much trouble. Sorcs are usually their banes, and Templars are their targets. If you are the latter I understand your pain (but Magicka Temps are not a really good solo class anyways). You may need to explain your points better because I seem to misunderstand this as QQ

Septimus_Magna · January 2016

Fear is by far the best NB skill imo, in small scale fights this gives the NB a good window for bursting down his opponent every 8 seconds.

Stam NBs work really well cause the stam burst is really high. Cloak is mainly good/OP on magicka NBs who can spam it endlessly and combine it with Healing Ward.