Exploiting or Dueling - You tell me

Goldie · May 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler this one is for you.

If some players on AD or EP, were playing in Cyrodiil and ran into a full group of DC players, who then sat and let the AD or EP players kill them each for an hour or so, feeding them tons of AP and putting them to the top of the leaderboards for the campaign and then claimed it was dueling, where is the line drawn on what IS and what is NOT exploiting?

www.twitch.tv/mythematic/v/4629576?=1h27m06s

You can see what I'm talking about at about 1:50 in this players stream and only lasts about 20 minutes. The DC group was streaming it, so you tell me Wheeler, exploit or not? I am VERY curious to hear your own thoughts, as well as those of the community. Please note that this video does not show all of the "dueling" and is only an example to illustrate what I am asking about.

(post edited to S-P-E-L-L out for people who obviously missed the question)

Ghostbane · May 2015

Can't find the point of time you are talking about. Went to 1m 15s, and 1h 15m, and cannot see what you are referring too.

Although killing just the same players over time is decrementing AP.

Pixysticks · May 2015

Ghostbane wrote: »

Can't find the point of time you are talking about. Went to 1m 15s, and 1h 15m, and cannot see what you are referring too.

Although killing just the same players over time is decrementing AP.

The OP made me waste 10 minutes of looking through this stream to find nothing of importance at all, what he was talking about though was happening a little after 1:50, not 1:15.

My guess is OP just likes creating drama.

Kupoking · May 2015

Of course there ar diminishing returns on kills. But there are ways to bump that up If the killed ayer is getting some kind of ap income. I have seen that being exploited by some players. They sit at some ressource and ask buddies in the enemy faction to run under the flag to get killed by guards and the exploiter. The exploiter get ap from kills and the defense tick. Then, the exploiter allows himself to be killed or give up the ressource to lend ap. Then its rinse n repeat.

In a case like that if there players are in open field and ap farmers are 2+, once the ap generation falls low, one of the two exploiters allow themself the be killed, generating ap to the grp. But of course, ap could also be generated by killing players who adventure around those crossed swords.

Imho, arenas should be implemented to counter those situations. With a mode in which 2 characters can choose their opponents and be free of any outside factor.

Kupoking · May 2015

Im not refering to the case in the video however. But know that such things do happens. Cross faction guilds are mainly cause of it.

Ghostbane · May 2015

Looked at 1:50,

Looks like typical dueling to me.

"who then sat and let the two AD players kill them each for an hour or so"

Grossly inaccurate, pretty sure those DC where fighting back.

No harm to anyone, but if 15m-20m of dueling jumps a player to top of AD in Blackwater, something is wrong with AD.

Ashanne · May 2015

Funny, i saw the same tactic on EP side yesterday.. An EP player (was trying to surpass the EP emp, which he managed to do for a couple of hours) was "dueling" an AD sorc..

The EP player made 90k ap on a dead campaign in less than 5 hours (between 8 am-1pm est time on a monday)- i was there for the entire time and no fighting were occurring anywhere- ...out of curiosity i started to search the player...and found him "testing builds" (this was his second excuse) at BB LM (closest resource to ADs respawn location)

and when discussion started on zone chat, his guild master shows up (a well known self proclaimed u.......ble DK) and starts defending him in zone..that was hilarious

the "exploiter" let to be understood that the AD in first place on the leaderboards (same campaign) does the same

Goldie · May 2015

Ghostbane wrote: »

Looked at 1:50,

Looks like typical dueling to me.

"who then sat and let the two AD players kill them each for an hour or so"

Grossly inaccurate, pretty sure those DC where fighting back.

No harm to anyone, but if 15m-20m of dueling jumps a player to top of AD in Blackwater, something is wrong with AD.

Players earned nearly 100,000 AP in the first hour or so of the campaign. The 3rd place spot had 25k if that. That's why I felt the need to ask, when does it become exploiting. Never said the player or players in the video were guilty of anything.

Goldie · May 2015

Pixysticks wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

Can't find the point of time you are talking about. Went to 1m 15s, and 1h 15m, and cannot see what you are referring too.

Although killing just the same players over time is decrementing AP.

The OP made me waste 10 minutes of looking through this stream to find nothing of importance at all, what he was talking about though was happening a little after 1:50, not 1:15.

My guess is OP just likes creating drama.

Not creating drama at all, maybe I got the time wrong on the video. Asking for clarity as to when this type of gameplay becomes exploiting is "creating drama" then I guess I'm guilty.

Goldie · May 2015

.

vortexman11 · May 2015

The player in this video I assume you're talking about is and has always been a dueler, he does it for fun and thats that, if you actually watched his stream you'd hear that he said he's been no lifing the last few days to get to the top of the boards which isn't actually too hard....It just so happens that alot of these duelers happen to be really good 1vX players and therefore make alot of AP (one of the reasons you often see Sypher on top of the boards even though he never runs with a group)

Stop harassing people just because they're in first or second on the leaderboards, it happens way to often and all it does is destroy our community.

And heck I don't even care, call it exploiting and give us Arenas so we don't have to exploit anymore!

Minnesinger · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

The player in this video I assume you're talking about is and has always been a dueler, he does it for fun and thats that, if you actually watched his stream you'd hear that he said he's been no lifing the last few days to get to the top of the boards which isn't actually too hard....It just so happens that alot of these duelers happen to be really good 1vX players and therefore make alot of AP (one of the reasons you often see Sypher on top of the boards even though he never runs with a group)

Stop harassing people just because they're in first or second on the leaderboards, it happens way to often and all it does is destroy our community.

And heck I don't even care, call it exploiting and give us Arenas so we don't have to exploit anymore!

The video didn´t proof anything. They seemed to be friends. Posting this here is kinda tricky as the accusations are thrown. In these kinda situations the name and shame policy is right. Hopefully, people don´t start witch hunting manouvers in the Forums. I understand that blatant exploitation is annoying but maybe take a second or two before throwing accusations with little proof. That is all. MY opinion is based on the video only. I am not here to defend these people or judge.

Soulac · May 2015

We ran a 2-3 player group at the reset of Thornblade EU.
Even if I joined a hour later we were rank 1-3 just by killing a huge amount of players with that small group.

You don't need an exploit or something to get high in the leader board, you just need to know what you're doing..
Even Solo you can make more points than any zerg around quite easily, like these players did.

Kupoking · May 2015

We would not have this convo if dueling or arena was implemented in the game.

Goldie · May 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

The player in this video I assume you're talking about is and has always been a dueler, he does it for fun and thats that, if you actually watched his stream you'd hear that he said he's been no lifing the last few days to get to the top of the boards which isn't actually too hard....It just so happens that alot of these duelers happen to be really good 1vX players and therefore make alot of AP (one of the reasons you often see Sypher on top of the boards even though he never runs with a group)

Stop harassing people just because they're in first or second on the leaderboards, it happens way to often and all it does is destroy our community.

And heck I don't even care, call it exploiting and give us Arenas so we don't have to exploit anymore!

First of all, there is NO "harassing" anyone here. I am posing a question to the community and to Wheeler as to where this type of activity goes from "dueling" to "exploiting". What "destroys" our community is exploiters and cheaters who make it impossible for players who play legit to ever achieve anything (leaderboards, emperor, etc.) and it needs to be addressed MUCH more then it is now.

I do agree with you about the Arenas though. The fact that exploiting is so easy to do, and goes unchecked so often, should be a vision of things to come though.

Goldie · May 2015

Minnesinger wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

The player in this video I assume you're talking about is and has always been a dueler, he does it for fun and thats that, if you actually watched his stream you'd hear that he said he's been no lifing the last few days to get to the top of the boards which isn't actually too hard....It just so happens that alot of these duelers happen to be really good 1vX players and therefore make alot of AP (one of the reasons you often see Sypher on top of the boards even though he never runs with a group)

Stop harassing people just because they're in first or second on the leaderboards, it happens way to often and all it does is destroy our community.

And heck I don't even care, call it exploiting and give us Arenas so we don't have to exploit anymore!

The video didn´t proof anything. They seemed to be friends. Posting this here is kinda tricky as the accusations are thrown. In these kinda situations the name and shame policy is right. Hopefully, people don´t start witch hunting manouvers in the Forums. I understand that blatant exploitation is annoying but maybe take a second or two before throwing accusations with little proof. That is all. MY opinion is based on the video only. I am not here to defend these people or judge.

Again, NO "accusations" were or have been made! A question is being asked, and I am fairly certain that the fact a question was asked whizzed right over your head due to your quickness to retort your own opinion without addressing the question or giving an answer.

Goldie · May 2015

Ghostbane wrote: »

Looked at 1:50,

Looks like typical dueling to me.

"who then sat and let the two AD players kill them each for an hour or so"

Grossly inaccurate, pretty sure those DC where fighting back.

No harm to anyone, but if 15m-20m of dueling jumps a player to top of AD in Blackwater, something is wrong with AD.

I never once said that any of the players in the video were involved, or that any of them were exploiting, just that the video shows what I am asking the question about.

Lorkhan · May 2015

"former emperor" is the saddest title ever, it's a shame.

Winnamine · May 2015

Looks like typical dueling to me.
And honestly, 1v1ing is a terrible way to make AP, get in any decent group and you can make waaaaaay more by attacking/defending keeps or resources.
If they wanted to feed him AP, they could just suicide repeatedly at a resource he was defending, a group the size of that DC group, that'd be a nice tick.
Plus, of course, you can hear in their ts that they really are there to duel. I'm very confused why you would call what happened in that video an exploit, while linking the video that seems to prove that it is not.

Goldie · May 2015

Winnamine wrote: »

Looks like typical dueling to me.
And honestly, 1v1ing is a terrible way to make AP, get in any decent group and you can make waaaaaay more by attacking/defending keeps or resources.
If they wanted to feed him AP, they could just suicide repeatedly at a resource he was defending, a group the size of that DC group, that'd be a nice tick.
Plus, of course, you can hear in their ts that they really are there to duel. I'm very confused why you would call what happened in that video an exploit, while linking the video that seems to prove that it is not.

Where the hockey sticks are you people getting that I am saying what happened in the video is an exploit?

NEVER ONCE WAS THAT SAID, EVER!

Maybe that cleared up your confusion?

"Looks like typical dueling to me." would have been just fine.

MY QUESTION ASKS: where is the line drawn on what IS and what is NOT exploiting?

Goldie · May 2015

Please Close Thread... I don't think people are reading it before they comment anyway.

Goldie · May 2015

If trading kills for AP is exploiting, then when does dueling become exploiting?

mcurley · May 2015

I understand your frustration, @Goldie ... most people would rather assume that they know what your question is leading to rather than just answering the question and seeing how the conversation plays out.

Dueling, however, will never be considered exploiting because dueling is not technically a thing in this game.

Draxys · May 2015

OP, given your responses, I think you need to be a bit more self aware when it comes to how you phrase stuff like this. You claim that you are not accusing or suggesting anything about those players, but your post comes across strongly like you are insinuating that the players in your example are exploiting. You did suggest that people exploit in a certain way and then attempt to show an example of it after all.... Food for thought, as it were.

Ghostbane · May 2015

Maybe if you explained your question a bit better and provided some clear context to the relation of the video, you would not be getting so frustrated at peoples reactions.

I do not believe dueling is exploiting. In my opinion I find that a silly statement. In the scenarios you are providing would it be bad if they were not in tick range of something?

To clarify 'dueling',

Two groups/individuals fighting one another

1) Resource farming is not dueling
2) Trading kills is not dueling
3) Radish custard is not dueling

Players earned nearly 100,000 AP in the first hour or so of the campaign

A small group of skilled players, in great gear, TS comms, schoolbus full of CP, start of a campaign euphoria with perfect map conditions could easily make 100k AP in the first hour.

That is not exploiting either.

Takllin · May 2015

This is dueling.

As for your frustration with how people have responded to your OP, look at how you phrase the question. It's completely loaded. You are making the assumption already that this is exploiting under the guise of dueling, and want to know if others and Brian Wheeler feel the same way.

If a video had shown players willingly giving themselves up, and letting someone kill them repeatedly for AP, then you could have a point about someone abusing the system. That is not an exploit though, it is not a bug. They made diminishing returns to counteract something like this.

Winnamine · May 2015

Goldie wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

Looks like typical dueling to me.
And honestly, 1v1ing is a terrible way to make AP, get in any decent group and you can make waaaaaay more by attacking/defending keeps or resources.
If they wanted to feed him AP, they could just suicide repeatedly at a resource he was defending, a group the size of that DC group, that'd be a nice tick.
Plus, of course, you can hear in their ts that they really are there to duel. I'm very confused why you would call what happened in that video an exploit, while linking the video that seems to prove that it is not.

Where the hockey sticks are you people getting that I am saying what happened in the video is an exploit?

NEVER ONCE WAS THAT SAID, EVER!

Maybe that cleared up your confusion?

"Looks like typical dueling to me." would have been just fine.

MY QUESTION ASKS: where is the line drawn on what IS and what is NOT exploiting?

If everyone seems to be misunderstanding you, perhaps it is because the way you worded your post, whether this was intentional or not, very clearly implies that you believe this is an exploit, ofc if you didn't think it was exploitative behavior, why would you bother to put it up here?
You made it sound like the DC group was allowing themselves to be farmed by 2 players so those players could get to the top of the leaderboards,
"...a full group of DC players, who then sat and let the AD or EP players kill them each for an hour or so, feeding them tons of AP and putting them to the top of the leaderboards for the campaign and then claimed it was dueling..."
When what I, and everyone else it seems, saw in the video were legit duels, not a group "letting" themselves be killed or "feeding" anyone AP.
You may have phrased it as a question, but it is very obviously an accusation of exploiting.

ZOS_ArtG · May 2015

Hello everyone,

We do not allow the naming of individuals on our official forum. Doing so is neither constructive nor is within the spirit of our Code of Conduct.

If you feel that someone is violating our Terms of Service, we ask that you report them in-game as opposed to creating a thread on the forums. As such, we are closing this thread. Thanks for your understanding.