Trials Gear - Still Nerfed

DDuke · February 2015

So, I had my question about the nerf on Trials gear partly answered. The crit % chance was raised to 4%, that's fine, although crit % isn't that important anymore, as soft caps on weapon/spell dmg have been removed.

And I can understand the change on Infallible Aether set bonus from 10% to 5% Armour/Spell Resistance, it was explained fairly well on the ESO Live by Eric.

But, there are still some big nerfs that weren't addressed:

Vicious Ophidian

Used to have 22 weapon damage (220 in 1.6), now down to 17 (170)

This is a big one, especially now that weapon damage soft caps have been removed. Even before the nerf, there was discussion regarding whether to use this set or Hunding's on live, and the soft cap removal already tilts the balance towards using Hunding's instead, even before factoring in the nerf on Vicious Ophidian.

If anything, Vicious Ophidian should have been buffed to compensate for the soft cap removals, because now no one will want it.

Infallible Aether

Used to have +83 (830) Heavy Attack damage, now down to 58 (581)

Another big one. Using the set means you'll be doing a lot of Heavy Attacks to trigger the armour/spell resistance reduction. Why was this nerfed?

The set wasn't even the BiS before the nerfs, and it certainly won't be now after soft cap removals, as spell dmg>spell crit.

ZOS, you might want to reconsider some of these nerfs & maybe instead buffing these sets a little bit to make them worth the effort it takes to get them.

xMovingTarget · February 2015

Vicious Ophidian had to get a tradeoff for 8% cost reduction on skills. Also the stamina return. Hundings rage doesnt have that. So in my opinion its fine. I still prefer vicious over hundings. Just because of the better resource management it provides. On update 6 that 8% are even better as now on live coz everything costs more.

Infallible Aether is bad in any way. I cant see why anybody would actually use it as a 5 piece set.

pppontus · February 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Vicious Ophidian had to get a tradeoff for 8% cost reduction on skills. Also the stamina return. Hundings rage doesnt have that. So in my opinion its fine.

Infallible Aether is bad in any way. I cant see why anybody would actually use it as a 5 piece set.

In 1.5 it's amazing for Sorcerers together with Spawn of Mephala. In 1.6 probably not.

DDuke · February 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Vicious Ophidian had to get a tradeoff for 8% cost reduction on skills. Also the stamina return. Hundings rage doesnt have that. So in my opinion its fine.

Infallible Aether is bad in any way. I cant see why anybody would actually use it as a 5 piece set.

You also get 87 more stamina while using Hunding's, set bonus which gets even more important after the soft cap removal.

And you're able to spam skills non-stop, even with 7/7 normal Ophidian template gear, once you've got the right CP passives, so stamina return & cost reduction don't really matter & I'd say the DPS increase of 129 weapon dmg from Hunding's makes it a much more attractive option.

xMovingTarget · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

once you've got the right CP passives

this, it will take a long time until you get there decimus

Not everybody is a nightblade with syphoning attacks, so it matters

DDuke · February 2015

xMovingTarget wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

once you've got the right CP passives

this, it will take a long time until you get there decimus

Yes, and then a set you can craft in 5 minutes is better than set you spent hundreds of hours grinding in Sanctum.

Vicious vs Hunding's is fine on live. Why nerf it?

I personally see no reason in doing SO anymore.

The gear is harder to get & takes lots of effort, it's supposed to be better (not op, just better), which it won't be after 1.6, not for your stamina DK, nor for my stamina NB. Not for PvE, and certainly not for PvP.
1.6, it's all about stacking weapon dmg, which was conveniently nerfed on Vicious.

xMovingTarget · February 2015

Overall i agree. It should be better than any crafted gear.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

DDuke · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

pppontus · February 2015

The problem is most of the posters in here can't complete Sanctum so they (many of them) would rather these sets suck, as they can't get them anyway. I'm afraid posting feedback about the gear here mostly just summons a hundred people saying crafted gear should be the best ever.... $:\$

DDuke · February 2015

pppontus wrote: »

The problem is most of the posters in here can't complete Sanctum so they (many of them) would rather these sets suck, as they can't get them anyway. I'm afraid posting feedback about the gear here mostly just summons a hundred people saying crafted gear should be the best ever.... $:\$

These people exist in every MMO.

Yet, games like WoW that have real gear incentives to make end game awesome & worth playing are still the most played games out there.

I wonder...

That said, the SO sets can be achieved by PvPing as well, so the "forced to do raids, I like soloing blabla" doesn't really apply

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

pppontus wrote: »

The problem is most of the posters in here can't complete Sanctum so they (many of them) would rather these sets suck, as they can't get them anyway. I'm afraid posting feedback about the gear here mostly just summons a hundred people saying crafted gear should be the best ever.... $:\$

It has nothing to do with whether we have completed Sanctum and certainly we do not want them to suck. If that is what you think about my comment then you need to reconsider what you are saying cause you are offensive.

DDuke · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage

Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage
Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

You are missing completely the point again. I didn't say that the bonuses it has are the best bonuses from a pure DPS perspective even on live atm. It does have some niche bonuses. That doesn't mean they are not higher "value" bonuses as compared to crafting sets concerning "item level".

They can change the bonuses to be less niche and more in par with what a DPS character need. However, they shouldn't be higher "item level" to the highest craftable or sets you burn yourself in PvP to get....the end.

DDuke · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage
Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

You are missing completely the point again. I didn't say that the bonuses it has are the best bonuses from a pure DPS perspective even on live atm. It does have some niche bonuses. That doesn't mean they are not higher "value" bonuses as compared to crafting sets concerning "item level".

They can change the bonuses to be less niche and more in par with what a DPS character need. However, they shouldn't be higher "item level" to the highest craftable or sets you burn yourself in PvP to get....the end.

Yes it does. Item level reflects the general usefulness of the item in question. E.g. Tier 1 gear (ilvl 50) has less stats than Tier 2 gear (ilvl 55).

E.g. I can get rocket boots in WoW that give me big speed increase for a while, but their ilvl is very low, because they provide less stats.

Tier 1 & Tier 2 gears might have different bonuses, but the power of Tier 2 gear is higher, making it desirable.

In ESO, this is in reverse, with Hunding's Rage having better usefulness & granting more power.

This is how ilvl works:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level

And again, you can get the SO sets by PvPing as well, but it takes longer than the other PvP sets to obtain.
Shouldn't this by default make them more desirable (higher ilvl)?

A good way to balance it would be having it grant the same bonuses as Hunding's, but in addition give these niche bonuses (which aren't op enough to determine fights ).

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage
Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

You are missing completely the point again. I didn't say that the bonuses it has are the best bonuses from a pure DPS perspective even on live atm. It does have some niche bonuses. That doesn't mean they are not higher "value" bonuses as compared to crafting sets concerning "item level".

They can change the bonuses to be less niche and more in par with what a DPS character need. However, they shouldn't be higher "item level" to the highest craftable or sets you burn yourself in PvP to get....the end.

Yes it does. Item level reflects the general usefulness of the item in question. E.g. Tier 1 gear (ilvl 50) has less stats than Tier 2 gear (ilvl 55).

E.g. I can get rocket boots in WoW that give me big speed increase for a while, but their ilvl is very low, because they provide less stats.

Tier 1 & Tier 2 gears might have different bonuses, but the power of Tier 2 gear is higher, making it desirable.

In ESO, this is in reverse, with Hunding's Rage having better usefulness & granting more power.

This is how ilvl works:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level

And again, you can get the SO sets by PvPing as well, but it takes longer than the other PvP sets to obtain.
Shouldn't this by default make them more desirable (higher ilvl)?

Not entirely. By making something obviously more powerful than anything else not only you are limiting which items will be used in game...but you create BiS that is irrespective of the build idioms.

Atm there are some fun builds that have their powerful sets that make them tick. Make a super powerful set that boosts a particular straightforward build, you destroyed build diversity.

P.S I did mention item level as a generic term. Please don't bring WoW in the conversation and how it scales gear. Thanks. And no this is not a jab to start a conversation about WoW.

Joy_Division · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage
Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

You are missing completely the point again. I didn't say that the bonuses it has are the best bonuses from a pure DPS perspective even on live atm. It does have some niche bonuses. That doesn't mean they are not higher "value" bonuses as compared to crafting sets concerning "item level".

They can change the bonuses to be less niche and more in par with what a DPS character need. However, they shouldn't be higher "item level" to the highest craftable or sets you burn yourself in PvP to get....the end.

I'm pretty sure I disagreed with Duke with just about every post he has ever made, but he is right here and I think you sense that by your "the end" comment.

"were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes" - you are clearly arguing this set is better than Hunding's.

You are not (just) talking about quantitative bonus, you are making an (incorrect) assessment about quality.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage
Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

You are missing completely the point again. I didn't say that the bonuses it has are the best bonuses from a pure DPS perspective even on live atm. It does have some niche bonuses. That doesn't mean they are not higher "value" bonuses as compared to crafting sets concerning "item level".

They can change the bonuses to be less niche and more in par with what a DPS character need. However, they shouldn't be higher "item level" to the highest craftable or sets you burn yourself in PvP to get....the end.

I'm pretty sure I disagreed with Duke with just about every post he has ever made, but he is right here and I think you sense that by your "the end" comment.

"were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes" - you are clearly arguing this set is better than Hunding's.

You are not (just) talking about quantitative bonus, you are making an (incorrect) assessment about quality.

Sorry if I gave the wrong idea. I mean about 2 different things. Item value and actual quality. Item value had to be brought down. Actual quality should be brought up if PvE players consider it worse than a crafted set to same if not slightly (5%) better levels.

DDuke · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Ophidian set bonuses were like a 7-pieces set. It is good to be brought down. And no it shouldn't be better than crafted gear. It still is after the changes...but not by the margin it was before.

No, it's not. Take it from someone who has tested things on PTS.

It's all about stacking weapon dmg now...

Hunding's now has (on 1.5 numbers): +89 stamina, +12 weapon dmg more than Vicious. On live, it's 7 weapon dmg more.

I'd even be fine with crafted gear being better/equal, if getting that gear required any effort & skill.

E.g. if it required special materials only achieved by killing a trial boss or by achieving something in PvP, which you could then have someone with 9 traits craft into a special set.

The current:

"reach VR14, craft the best gear in 5 minutes, character progression - done"

kills any incentive to play the game.

Also, keep in mind before complaining about being "forced to do Trials to get best gear" that you can achieve the same gear by PvPing as well (top 2% of leaderboards).

I would prefer that to be a different, PvP specific set (equal in power), but whatever...

I don't mind them changing the bonuses. But whether you want to admit it or not...or whether the previous bonuses made sense to you or were useful/useless, the previous set bonuses had the actual value of a 7-piece set. Don't forget that it has as a 3 set bonus a 5 piece bonus of another armor. So it is good that they have nerfed them, too bad at the current meta the bonuses are not as valuable.

I hope I am clear.

Let's compare the set bonuses before nerf:

Hunding's: 4% crit, 4% crit, +87 stamina, +29 weapon damage

Vicious: 4% crit, 4% crit, +75% movement speed after killing target for 3 seconds, -8% stamina costs, 200 stamina after killing someone, +22 weapon damage
Difference

Hunding's: +87 stamina, +7 weapon damage
Vicious: -8% stamina costs, +200 stamina & +75% movement speed after killing someone

So, do you want more raw power, or do you want mostly niche bonuses that won't help you during the fight itself?
Especially when you never run out of stamina in 1.6.

Conclusion: Vicious Ophidian definitely does not have the value of a 7-piece set (which it should have), and in fact is more or less equal with Hunding's on live, and weaker on 1.6. It should be buffed, not nerfed.

If Hunding's was a set that required equal amount of effort & dedication to get, I'd be fine with this.
However, Hunding's is a set you can craft in 5 minutes with no effort or challenge behind it.

And Vicious Ophidian is/was the best of the Trial sets, the others are just laughable when compared to crafted gear.

You are missing completely the point again. I didn't say that the bonuses it has are the best bonuses from a pure DPS perspective even on live atm. It does have some niche bonuses. That doesn't mean they are not higher "value" bonuses as compared to crafting sets concerning "item level".

They can change the bonuses to be less niche and more in par with what a DPS character need. However, they shouldn't be higher "item level" to the highest craftable or sets you burn yourself in PvP to get....the end.

Yes it does. Item level reflects the general usefulness of the item in question. E.g. Tier 1 gear (ilvl 50) has less stats than Tier 2 gear (ilvl 55).

E.g. I can get rocket boots in WoW that give me big speed increase for a while, but their ilvl is very low, because they provide less stats.

Tier 1 & Tier 2 gears might have different bonuses, but the power of Tier 2 gear is higher, making it desirable.

In ESO, this is in reverse, with Hunding's Rage having better usefulness & granting more power.

This is how ilvl works:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level

And again, you can get the SO sets by PvPing as well, but it takes longer than the other PvP sets to obtain.
Shouldn't this by default make them more desirable (higher ilvl)?

Not entirely. By making something obviously more powerful than anything else not only you are limiting which items will be used in game...but you create BiS that is irrespective of the build idioms.

Not really. This would only be the case if these sets were as easily obtainable as crafted sets currently are.

An ideal progression would have the easily crafted sets & some world drops/Craglorn dungeon sets as "Tier 1"
"Tier 2" would come from Veteran Dungeons (make some special crafting materials for "Tier 2" crafted gear drop there to incorporate crafting into it)
"Tier 3" would be the most difficult to achieve sets (Vicious Ophidian, Infallible Aether, Eternal Yokeda), and/or special sets created for PvP (should be equally difficult to achieve).

This way, there'd always be people at different gear Tiers and not everyone would be wearing Hunding's Rage, Whitestrake or Seducer+Warlock (though some people still would).

There will always be gear that is BiS, the question just becomes whether you want that to be the 5-minute crafted gear, or Trials gear requiring 100+ hours of effort.

Also, I'm not against the idea of having multiple sets for each tier.
This is something that I wish more MMOs would do actually (it's usually just one set per Tier).

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Atm there are some fun builds that have their powerful sets that make them tick. Make a super powerful set that boosts a particular straightforward build, you destroyed build diversity.

P.S I did mention item level as a generic term. Please don't bring WoW in the conversation and how it scales gear. Thanks. And no this is not a jab to start a conversation about WoW.

You contradict yourself there. A powerful set for a particular straightforward build doesn't destroy build diversity. Quite the opposite in fact.

You could still have the easily crafted sets fill niche roles, which is why I brought up the rocket boots from WoW. Many people still used them for the bonus (very useful in PvP), despite them being statistically weaker than higher ilvl gear.

It was the same case with things like Night-Vision Goggles, which many people (me included) used to detect stealthed people.

Pmarsico9 · February 2015

If Trials were more than stack the best dps possible then you would have a leg to stand on. The biggest problem is that by their very nature they are exclusive content and people like healer dks, tank sorcs, and dps templars still aren't going to get slots because the mechanics of being a time trial ruin the potential of alot of the player base participating. 1.6 isn't going to fix this. ESO is just like WoW, Rift, and every other MMO that has marginalized true tactical coordination and allowed for pure metrical destruction. I mean I have run AA a few times and I can't even look at the place. I literally have to zerg bomb through or I get kicked. Ophidia is even worse. I have been asked to go as either a healer or tank and I won't accept the invite because the UI can't even be setup to track information I would want while tanking and healing in this game is horribly boring.

How does this tie back to the gear issue? Because from a gear standpoint, the only content with decent participation levels is Cyrodiil and whacking that out even worse than it is balance wise due to gear sets by giving the 8,000,000 DK vamp pyromancers and obnoxious NB archers that ruin it any more of an edge due to more powerful set bonuses than those that are more readily available to the majority of the populace would be adding to the exodus.

It's really a shame, 1.6 should be fixing this game but it's not, it's just adding more nonsense because ZOS has no perspective on balance.

kkampaseb17_ESO · February 2015

DDuke wrote: »

1) Not really. This would only be the case if these sets were as easily obtainable as crafted sets currently are.

2) Also, I'm not against the idea of having multiple sets for each tier.
This is something that I wish more MMOs would do actually (it's usually just one set per Tier).

3) You contradict yourself there. A powerful set for a particular straightforward build doesn't destroy build diversity. Quite the opposite in fact.

1) The rarity is not an argument about whether something should be much more powerful in a game that is skill-based rather than item based. I did play Archeage and it was exactly what you describe (item-based game), only instead of time in dungeons it was time and RL money dropped on crafted sets and super random RNG. I would love if they added some really special costumes or effects for people achieving something requiring a lot of effort. I don't want to be OPed due to items. When I kill the next guy I am gonna fight in PvP, how am I gonna brag when I dropped his face on the floor when I know that 90% was my items and no how I played (watch again Archeage reference). 5% max difference. No tiers, thanks.

2) I agree with multiple sets. Tiers no.

3) I do not contradict myself. If you have a mainstream build that is easy to play and you boost it even further with a particular set so that the rest of the builds (even if they are more high-risk / high-reward builds) are not comparable, then that is exactly what you are doing. You are eliminating build diversity.

DDuke · February 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

1) Not really. This would only be the case if these sets were as easily obtainable as crafted sets currently are.

2) Also, I'm not against the idea of having multiple sets for each tier.
This is something that I wish more MMOs would do actually (it's usually just one set per Tier).

3) You contradict yourself there. A powerful set for a particular straightforward build doesn't destroy build diversity. Quite the opposite in fact.

1) The rarity is not an argument about whether something should be much more powerful in a game that is skill-based rather than item based. I did play Archeage and it was exactly what you describe (item-based game), only instead of time in dungeons it was time and RL money dropped on crafted sets and super random RNG. I would love if they added some really special costumes or effects for people achieving something requiring a lot of effort. I don't want to be OPed due to items. When I kill the next guy I am gonna fight in PvP, how am I gonna brag when I dropped his face on the floor when I know that 90% was my items and no how I played (watch again Archeage reference). 5% max difference. No tiers, thanks.

2) I agree with multiple sets. Tiers no.

3) I do not contradict myself. If you have a mainstream build that is easy to play and you boost it even further with a particular set so that the rest of the builds (even if they are more high-risk / high-reward builds) are not comparable, then that is exactly what you are doing. You are eliminating build diversity.

Well, you kind of need item tiers to keep the end game PvErs (and some PvPers) around, and they've already confirmed they'll be adding "seasonal gear" (you might, or might not be familiar with the term from WoW), and item levels were discussed in last ESO Live (meaning there will be stronger gear).

A costume is definitely not enough for players who want something tangible & valuable from the thousands of potions & dozens, if not hundreds of hours poured into doing difficult content.

Coming from MMOs like WoW, Rift, SWTOR etc, I find it shocking that the game didn't have gear progression at launch (and so did many people I knew, who quit the game last summer), which is why I find it even more shocking that this gear is now being nerfed in PTS.