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What Reflective Scales Really Is

Gumpnstein
Gumpnstein
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I see posts all the time about nerfing this skill, about how it's OP and people sit and spam it etc, etc, etc. But noone ever talks about why DK's have this skill to begin with and why it is so important, without changing something else with their class, to them. Still I find it hilarious that people get so up in arms about nothing more than a gap closer.

Reflective scales exist because DK are the least mobile class in the entire game. As far as class base skills, the DK has 0 ranged abilities, and 0 gap closer's that are magika based, which every other the class in the game has. They have chains, and if you count this as their magika based gap closer, then it's the only one that can be blocked and reversed so that they are pulled.

So, Reflective scales....is our magika based gap closer. We "spam flap our wings" so that we can get to people, or flap them to do the opposite and force them to come to us which is the same thing as closing a gap. Which it becomes the most expensive gap closer in the entire game BY FAR. And you want it nerfed? Your whining about a gap closer?

You wanna clip the DK wings? Fine! Give us a magika based charge that can't be blocked or reflected and you can have the stupid wings. I or any other DK won't need them anymore.

Furthermore. While I may would still use sword and board with my DK if I had such a gap closer, the lack of a closer almost forces every DK to run shield charge which means we are nearly tied down to running sword and board, which is the main reason we all have it. Any of your other classes completely forced to run a specific skill or weapon class?

So nerf it, hell take it out of the game, but in place I want a gap closer that doesn't use my stamina, and doesn't force me to use a certain weapon. So give me a magika gap closer, I dare you to give DK's this. You would be begging for them to start flapping their wings again, because instead of flapping their wings they would be in your face 24/7 with more magic and stamina than before.
  • KBKB
    KBKB
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    err you have chains, that knock down stun to name a few. Most roll a shield 1h so they can charge you from that skill line.

    Coming from a sorc who uses a staff x 2 I'm completely locked out of a DK battle bar a few skills that really don't cut the mustard everything gets sent back at me. Fair expectation not to want to pick up a melee weapon as a sorc too. I have nothing against counter classes but its beyond stupid trying to fight a reflect spamming DK.

    I have to play out of my skin in a 1v1 Situation where they can sit back and spam 1 button and take 500 damage every 4 seconds from vel curse, 300 damage from streak which usually blocked, or 200 damage from mages fury. Most decent ones stay out of daedric mines and even the twilight pet's attacks along with destro light/heavy get reflected.
    Edited by KBKB on December 16, 2014 2:27AM
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  • Leo_of_Adamantine
    Leo_of_Adamantine
    Soul Shriven
    2 Handed also has a gap closer and a really good one at that.
    While Reflective Scales can be used as a gap closer it is definitely much more than that, I don't understand why you would even try suggesting that.
  • Suntzu1414
    sword+board and 2hd both have decent gap closers...
    (in fact i use S+B over ambush...)

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  • Gumpnstein
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    2 Handed also has a gap closer and a really good one at that.
    While Reflective Scales can be used as a gap closer it is definitely much more than that, I don't understand why you would even try suggesting that.

    2hander is stam based obviously, which is exactly what i said
  • Gumpnstein
    Gumpnstein
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    Suntzu1414 wrote: »
    sword+board and 2hd both have decent gap closers...
    (in fact i use S+B over ambush...)

    Kill Well
    ST

    Stam based....
  • Gumpnstein
    Gumpnstein
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    KBKB wrote: »
    err you have chains, that knock down stun to name a few. Most roll a shield 1h so they can charge you from that skill line.

    Coming from a sorc who uses a staff x 2 I'm completely locked out of a DK battle bar a few skills that really don't cut the mustard everything gets sent back at me. Fair expectation not to want to pick up a melee weapon as a sorc too. I have nothing against counter classes but its beyond stupid trying to fight a reflect spamming DK.

    I have to play out of my skin in a 1v1 Situation where they can sit back and spam 1 button and take 500 damage every 4 seconds from vel curse, 300 damage from streak which usually blocked, or 200 damage from mages fury. Most decent ones stay out of daedric mines and even the twilight pet's attacks along with destro light/heavy get reflected.

    I stated we had chains, which would be the only gap closer in the game that can be blocked or reflected which is why noone uses them. Obviously people don't read or read well because three people made comments on something i specifically commented on in the OP. What I posted if you care to read it is all true and like I said, get rid of wings, let me gap close you with a magic charge, and you sorcs would be begging for mercy with a DK in your face 24/7. Imagine trying to bolt escape a DK with a magic charge gap closer and a sword and board gap closers...you would have 0 magic in seconds because they would be able to chase you down. So give us a gap closer like a shield charge that costs magic like EVERYONE else in the game and I will stick the 400 magic cost wings in the garbage.
  • Cody
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    I dont believe reflective scales needed a nerf. that much I agree with. However, if you used it as a gap closer, then im sure you used up a ton of magicka.

    Yes critical charge and shield charge are stamina based gap closers... but why is that a bad thing? If having a decent gap closer means you have to use your stamina for something besides perma blocking, fine. just do it. DKs seem to have no problem with it nowadays.

    Oh, and just to throw it in there, the NB "gap closer" teleport strike... yeah no, its not:/ It can be interrupted by venom arrow and crushing shock spammers, not to mention it has a delay, and is easily dodged. I dont use it as a gap closer myself, i use it as a stealth opener.
  • KBKB
    KBKB
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    Gumpnstein wrote: »
    KBKB wrote: »
    err you have chains, that knock down stun to name a few. Most roll a shield 1h so they can charge you from that skill line.

    Coming from a sorc who uses a staff x 2 I'm completely locked out of a DK battle bar a few skills that really don't cut the mustard everything gets sent back at me. Fair expectation not to want to pick up a melee weapon as a sorc too. I have nothing against counter classes but its beyond stupid trying to fight a reflect spamming DK.

    I have to play out of my skin in a 1v1 Situation where they can sit back and spam 1 button and take 500 damage every 4 seconds from vel curse, 300 damage from streak which usually blocked, or 200 damage from mages fury. Most decent ones stay out of daedric mines and even the twilight pet's attacks along with destro light/heavy get reflected.

    I stated we had chains, which would be the only gap closer in the game that can be blocked or reflected which is why noone uses them. Obviously people don't read or read well because three people made comments on something i specifically commented on in the OP. What I posted if you care to read it is all true and like I said, get rid of wings, let me gap close you with a magic charge, and you sorcs would be begging for mercy with a DK in your face 24/7. Imagine trying to bolt escape a DK with a magic charge gap closer and a sword and board gap closers...you would have 0 magic in seconds because they would be able to chase you down. So give us a gap closer like a shield charge that costs magic like EVERYONE else in the game and I will stick the 400 magic cost wings in the garbage.

    I like how you ignored the rest of my post, and yes I would swap wings for a gap closer for DKs any day of the week on my sorc. Not so sure about my templar though.
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  • Gumpnstein
    Gumpnstein
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    People also don't think about NON light armor users. The draconic power tree is EXTREMELY expensive for a heavy user for instance. Dragon blood is 425, refelective scales are 400, talons are 400. Anyone that ever tried to do something beside 5 warlock 5 seducer 5-7 light armor would know that the real problem you have with these skills is not the skill, its the light armor ability in this game.
  • Samadhi
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    Can relate to what the OP is saying as a Nightblade.

    Hate trying to go full Stamina build with Dual Wield and being limited to using a Magicka based skill as a gap closer.
    Flying Blade just is not sufficient as a gap closer; and since the skill line has no other option, am limited to using a crappy and weak Magicka based gap closer with high cost and low damage on a Stamina build. It's terrible.

    Dragonknight's most powerful Class skills are all melee range, meaning they need a gap closer to work with them and their Chains and Obsidian Shard options are not reliable due to being based around ranged CC in a world where everyone blocks constantly.
    Having to use Stamina based charges on Magicka builds is probably terrible to deal with; every point of Stamina that gets expended for utility is a point of Stamina that doesn't get to be used hiding behind block and spamming away spells.

    It's also frustrating that Magicka based builds have terrible Stamina management, it must be hard for a Dragonknight to play a hybrid of a Magicka build with a single Stamina based utility in the same way that it is hard for a Nightblade to play a Stamina build with a single Magicka based utility. It must be.
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  • Manoekin
    Manoekin
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    Gumpnstein wrote: »
    Suntzu1414 wrote: »
    sword+board and 2hd both have decent gap closers...
    (in fact i use S+B over ambush...)

    Kill Well
    ST

    Stam based....

    You also said you are forced to go SnB for the gap closer... which his post proves you are not. You go SnB because the passives fit your build better, and would even if you had a class gap closer.
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  • aco5712
    aco5712
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    Gumpnstein wrote: »
    Any of your other classes completely forced to run a specific skill or weapon class?

    Both Sorc and NBs are forced to run resto staffs as their off hand weapon because we lack heals. NBs even more so forced because they dont have class shields.
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  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    DK scales are in the same position as sorc bolt escape. DK have no ranged class damage abilities, so scales was supposed to make up for that.

    Sorcs have no instant cast direct damage class abilities...shards is a roll of the dice, and mages wrath requires target to be at 20% health or less to really do any damage...thats why we had bolt escape which actually put us on fair footing prior to nerf.

    This really comes die to balance. If Sorcs had a viable instant cast dd class ability bolt escape would be fine as is with the nerf.

    If DK had a ranged damage ability then scales would be fine with its upcoming limit.

    Unfortunately DK will be down here where my Sorc is due to nerfs and classes not being properly balanced. This will mean template will be the new top class with nightblades being second, and sorcs and DK fighting for the scraps at the bottom of the table.
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  • Dekkameron
    Dekkameron
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    aco5712 wrote: »
    Gumpnstein wrote: »
    Any of your other classes completely forced to run a specific skill or weapon class?

    Both Sorc and NBs are forced to run resto staffs as their off hand weapon because we lack heals. NBs even more so forced because they dont have class shields.

    Spamming funnel health heals me more than enough without resto abilities.
    - Veteran Combat Librarian -
  • Zintair
    Zintair
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    If you want a Gap Closer that is fine...

    Projectile/Spell Reflect is MUCH more than that however when you take a look at the DKs ability to manage resources.

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  • Soulac
    Soulac
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    Wanna trade? Here take my Ambush, I think reflect as NB would be fine.
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  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    Soulac wrote: »
    Wanna trade? Here take my Ambush, I think reflect as NB would be fine.
    Seconded. I'd trade Ambush for a 4-second reflecting of all projectiles any day!
    Xuth.
  • Pchela
    Pchela
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    As a night blade who rerolled a DK, when I do play my nb I find myself looking for my wings. A handy skill indeed, it is my "ranged" ability.
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  • Kas
    Kas
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    you can definitly have templar charge and its global cooldown in exchange ;)
    by the way, you have the best gap closer in the game - it just is an ultimate
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  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    Folks are making a big deal out of the Reflective Scales nerf when it really isn't even a nerf at all.

    I watch DK's fight all the time, how many times does a DK reflect more then 4 projectiles before the spell wears off and needs to be recast anyways? not often...its quite rare infact...the spell wears off in 9 out of 10 cases before it has reflected more then 4...so this "so called nerf" really isn't a nerf at all and don't change a thing for DK's. DK's will still recast as usual without feeling hardly any effects of this change at all.

    even tanking in PVP being ganged up on, who is going to use reflected attacks against the DK anyways? those reflected attacks, even if they are limited to 4 per cast, can still kill you, so again...this nerf really isn't a nerf, they are simply putting new paint on an old car.I don't see Scales as much as a problem anymore as i used to, as it has ways to be countered, but i guess i could see some builds that would have trouble. just being fair.
    Edited by RinaldoGandolphi on December 16, 2014 2:35PM
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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Dreyloch
    Dreyloch
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    I just love the wings for the fact I can play fireball ping pong with DK's on the other side ROFL. It's tons of fun!
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  • pmn100b16_ESO
    pmn100b16_ESO
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    woodsro wrote: »
    Folks are making a big deal out of the Reflective Scales nerf when it really isn't even a nerf at all.

    I watch DK's fight all the time, how many times does a DK reflect more then 4 projectiles before the spell wears off and needs to be recast anyways? not often...its quite rare infact...the spell wears off in 9 out of 10 cases before it has reflected more then 4...so this "so called nerf" really isn't a nerf at all and don't change a thing for DK's. DK's will still recast as usual without feeling hardly any effects of this change at all.

    even tanking in PVP being ganged up on, who is going to use reflected attacks against the DK anyways? those reflected attacks, even if they are limited to 4 per cast, can still kill you, so again...this nerf really isn't a nerf, they are simply putting new paint on an old car.I don't see Scales as much as a problem anymore as i used to, as it has ways to be countered, but i guess i could see some builds that would have trouble. just being fair.

    Not really. Once this change goes through, players will know there's now a limit and just spam light attacks breaking down the scales. But, its true some DKs with more tactical play styles won't notice this. Its the ones that charge into massive groups that will suffer.
    v16 NB,DK,Sorc
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    woodsro wrote: »
    Folks are making a big deal out of the Reflective Scales nerf when it really isn't even a nerf at all.

    I watch DK's fight all the time, how many times does a DK reflect more then 4 projectiles before the spell wears off and needs to be recast anyways? not often...its quite rare infact...the spell wears off in 9 out of 10 cases before it has reflected more then 4...so this "so called nerf" really isn't a nerf at all and don't change a thing for DK's. DK's will still recast as usual without feeling hardly any effects of this change at all.

    even tanking in PVP being ganged up on, who is going to use reflected attacks against the DK anyways? those reflected attacks, even if they are limited to 4 per cast, can still kill you, so again...this nerf really isn't a nerf, they are simply putting new paint on an old car.I don't see Scales as much as a problem anymore as i used to, as it has ways to be countered, but i guess i could see some builds that would have trouble. just being fair.

    If you watch those 1vX videos that people who think DKs are overpowered are so quick to point to (while they ignore the 1vX videos of THEIR class), you will see in all of them many tactical inept players using ranged projectiles against a RS using DK.
  • Cody
    Cody
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    Dekkameron wrote: »
    aco5712 wrote: »
    Gumpnstein wrote: »
    Any of your other classes completely forced to run a specific skill or weapon class?

    Both Sorc and NBs are forced to run resto staffs as their off hand weapon because we lack heals. NBs even more so forced because they dont have class shields.

    Spamming funnel health heals me more than enough without resto abilities.

    No it dosen't.

  • Rylana
    Rylana
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    Yes, lets make ranged archer builds literally the only viable build in PvP

    While we are at it, lets just take that nasty thing called a health bar away so people can just be quick scopers.

    Reflective scale is the only hard counter to this BS. It is literally the ONLY THING keeping this game from being 100 bow users 100 percent of the time.
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  • Soulac
    Soulac
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    I'm a NB without reflective scales and don't see the problem against bow users.
    Block and dodge is your best friend and if u get ganked by 2+ archer and die, there wouldn't be a difference if they would run a Magicka build.
    Well in 1vX it's annoying to die against a 1.8k Snipe.
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  • cozmon3c_ESO
    cozmon3c_ESO
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    green dragons blood will be king again, like before all dk's used reflective scales.
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  • bertenburnyb16_ESO
    bertenburnyb16_ESO
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    the whiners wont stop until DK's can do nothing but sit there and get sniped all day long, and worst is Zos listens to the whiners
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  • Columba
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    As a bow user, I hate RS, but it's necessary to counter bows.
  • jrkhan
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    @‌Gumpnstein
    Because reflective scales has the properties of a gap closer, it does not follow that it is nothing more than a gap closer.
    I wouldn't be willing to trade any existing gap closer for the current implementation of reflective scales.
    Not saying the ability needs to be changed, but calling it "nothing more than a gap closer" is kind of disingenuous.

    What I find hilarious is the image of a dk charging into a zerg with focused charge/ambush, using talons, and then dying to projectile spam before they can get a single lava whip off.
    Edited by jrkhan on December 17, 2014 9:09PM
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