I don't blame AD. I don't blame EP. I blame my own faction.

Samadhi · November 2014

roechacca wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

...
DC . The answers simple . Ego and blame don't win campaigns when you're the low pop underdogs . Look in the mirror . ...

If ego and blame don't win campaigns, why are you making a forum thread to blame your faction?

Personally, do not care about winning or losing a campaign anyway. Just there to enjoy killing people. Blame no one for my shortcomings in combat except myself.

Because personal responsibility leads to wisdom , followed by insight and growth . There's no ego blaming my faction , I'm in it after all . Instead of making dozens of threads about who cheats the most , I made one about action .

The real question is if you don't care , why post ?

Some people here do enjoy winning and are adding some positive suggestions and concerns .

Play for the enjoyment of PvP, not for the ego gratification of a number on a scoreboard.

Personally, respect that Daggerfall has some solid guilds that do their own thing. We have some talented groups and players, even if our population is low on the whole. Not going to blame any of them if Daggerfall does not come out on top at the end of a campaign.

Perhaps try finding a way to adapt your personal strategies and expectations to best fit with the alliance's fragmented nature.

Another player already posted insights into combat styles well suited to Daggerfall's existing organizational structure: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/140464/a-call-to-all-daggerfall-covenent/p1

Lfehova · November 2014

roechacca wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I personally don't care who it is . Someone from NM , Dee Tic or who ever else was mentioned . Someone that knows the stratedgy of controlling the game map . Someone that can run a campaign . Sure their gonna make mistakes . BFD ! I say we give someone a shot . Then the next campaign if it didn't work for them , try a new person or keep the old .

TBH, one of the primary reasons why I don't lead PUGs is because there's already a lot of wannabe strategists spamming in zone. Also, it's hard to lead people when they aren't in group or TS, and it's a big headache to try to get a ton of people to do one thing or get organized. Coupled with the fact of, I always blame myself for any failure my guild has, I'd be shouldering a lot of guilt because large PUG groups are bound to fail.

Also, the strategies I would use, would require my enemies not to know. And we definitely have had spies in our zone chat before, so trying to strategize through zone chat, like hit X as a distraction, show up at Y for the real assault, would just wind up with the enemy faction sitting at Y ready to ambush us.

It's a tricky thing roechacca, it's a tricky thing.

NM has a great grasp of how to roll organized and effective, even completely and enormously outnumberd . Being afraid of failure was not something I expected to hear from any of your guild honestly . That's not a jab or a insult in any way . Just didn't expect that form of concern from You .

If you can get past that , DC would have some good leadership to follow .

You misunderstood me. I do not fear failure and my guild will follow me with whatever stupid plan or idea I have. Which is why when I decide we should hit arrius with 9 people, they follow me into glorious death against zergs of EP.

However, as a good leader I manage morale as well. And leading a bunch of PUGs or guilds into certain death doesn't help our alliance morale.

Lfehova · November 2014

jnjapexb14_ESO wrote: »

IMHO While I totally respect Hova's mad skills and all of NM for that matter, I don't think Hova would be a very good overall leader. Too arrogant and too leet for most people except other leets.

As previous poster said most of the people with the personally to be a great general have left the game or taking breaks.

I would vote for someone like Grunt from LoM though.

Honestly I agree. While I may strategically be able to think of good strategies for our alliance to execute, I don't think I'd make the best leader for our alliance.

A good leader needs the trust of those he leads, and they need to follow him without question.

I've rejected or discouraged a lot of people from joining NM because I believed they didn't fit what we do. Some have taken it as a growing opportunity and moved on. Some have taken and personally and rage quit barracks and may or may not hold a grudge against me.

So I definitely would not have the support needed to succeed as a DC wide alliance leader.

TheBull · November 2014

Lfehova wrote: »

jnjapexb14_ESO wrote: »

IMHO While I totally respect Hova's mad skills and all of NM for that matter, I don't think Hova would be a very good overall leader. Too arrogant and too leet for most people except other leets.

As previous poster said most of the people with the personally to be a great general have left the game or taking breaks.

I would vote for someone like Grunt from LoM though.

Honestly I agree. While I may strategically be able to think of good strategies for our alliance to execute, I don't think I'd make the best leader for our alliance.

A good leader needs the trust of those he leads, and they need to follow him without question.

I've rejected or discouraged a lot of people from joining NM because I believed they didn't fit what we do. Some have taken it as a growing opportunity and moved on. Some have taken and personally and rage quit barracks and may or may not hold a grudge against me.

So I definitely would not have the support needed to succeed as a DC wide alliance leader.

What has happened to you guys? You used to be out there quietly flipping keeps and farming scrolls. Did you have members leave?

I don't mean that in a bad why, but DC needs our guilds to perform. We are filled with skirmishers. Without that spark we're stuck running between Ales and Chal killing stuff but making no progress.

Lfehova · November 2014

TheBull wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

jnjapexb14_ESO wrote: »

IMHO While I totally respect Hova's mad skills and all of NM for that matter, I don't think Hova would be a very good overall leader. Too arrogant and too leet for most people except other leets.

As previous poster said most of the people with the personally to be a great general have left the game or taking breaks.

I would vote for someone like Grunt from LoM though.

Honestly I agree. While I may strategically be able to think of good strategies for our alliance to execute, I don't think I'd make the best leader for our alliance.

A good leader needs the trust of those he leads, and they need to follow him without question.

I've rejected or discouraged a lot of people from joining NM because I believed they didn't fit what we do. Some have taken it as a growing opportunity and moved on. Some have taken and personally and rage quit barracks and may or may not hold a grudge against me.

So I definitely would not have the support needed to succeed as a DC wide alliance leader.

What has happened to you guys? You used to be out there quietly flipping keeps and farming scrolls. Did you have members leave?

I don't mean that in a bad why, but DC needs our guilds to perform. We are filled with skirmishers. Without that spark we're stuck running between Ales and Chal killing stuff but making no progress.

We have definitely lost players and due to our strict recruitment requirements, our rebuilding will be inherently slow. But we have continued to flip keeps and farm enemies outnumbered. Flipping roe/chal, brindle/dragonclaw, or Blackboot/kingscrest is easy and we do it regularly.

But flipping arrius or faregyl when there's a scroll there, and multiple scouts and multiple guilds, who also use camps as crutches if they get caught off guard is a completely different monster to tackle with 8-12 people.

We just had two long time core players come back from archeage, and a few coming back from vacation. So we might have an NM zerg of 15 players on soon. We'll see what we can do

Zintair · November 2014

Hardest thing for an alliance is to unite the PUGs/PUG Guilds and Small Group Teams together. A Faction that can do that will always see success. It takes a special person to be able to lead PUGs day in and out.

I personally wouldn't ask something of someone I myself wouldn't do. It is a thankless job.

Roechacca · November 2014

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I personally don't care who it is . Someone from NM , Dee Tic or who ever else was mentioned . Someone that knows the stratedgy of controlling the game map . Someone that can run a campaign . Sure their gonna make mistakes . BFD ! I say we give someone a shot . Then the next campaign if it didn't work for them , try a new person or keep the old .

TBH, one of the primary reasons why I don't lead PUGs is because there's already a lot of wannabe strategists spamming in zone. Also, it's hard to lead people when they aren't in group or TS, and it's a big headache to try to get a ton of people to do one thing or get organized. Coupled with the fact of, I always blame myself for any failure my guild has, I'd be shouldering a lot of guilt because large PUG groups are bound to fail.

Also, the strategies I would use, would require my enemies not to know. And we definitely have had spies in our zone chat before, so trying to strategize through zone chat, like hit X as a distraction, show up at Y for the real assault, would just wind up with the enemy faction sitting at Y ready to ambush us.

It's a tricky thing roechacca, it's a tricky thing.

NM has a great grasp of how to roll organized and effective, even completely and enormously outnumberd . Being afraid of failure was not something I expected to hear from any of your guild honestly . That's not a jab or a insult in any way . Just didn't expect that form of concern from You .

If you can get past that , DC would have some good leadership to follow .

You misunderstood me. I do not fear failure and my guild will follow me with whatever stupid plan or idea I have. Which is why when I decide we should hit arrius with 9 people, they follow me into glorious death against zergs of EP.

However, as a good leader I manage morale as well. And leading a bunch of PUGs or guilds into certain death doesn't help our alliance morale.

Oh ok gotcha . Hopefully someone will step up and try to get the loose groups together for some big pushes on the map . If no one does I'll give it a shot but will need communication with everyone .

Anyone that has more suggestions, wants to lead or help hit me up in game .

Lfehova · November 2014

roechacca wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I personally don't care who it is . Someone from NM , Dee Tic or who ever else was mentioned . Someone that knows the stratedgy of controlling the game map . Someone that can run a campaign . Sure their gonna make mistakes . BFD ! I say we give someone a shot . Then the next campaign if it didn't work for them , try a new person or keep the old .

TBH, one of the primary reasons why I don't lead PUGs is because there's already a lot of wannabe strategists spamming in zone. Also, it's hard to lead people when they aren't in group or TS, and it's a big headache to try to get a ton of people to do one thing or get organized. Coupled with the fact of, I always blame myself for any failure my guild has, I'd be shouldering a lot of guilt because large PUG groups are bound to fail.

Also, the strategies I would use, would require my enemies not to know. And we definitely have had spies in our zone chat before, so trying to strategize through zone chat, like hit X as a distraction, show up at Y for the real assault, would just wind up with the enemy faction sitting at Y ready to ambush us.

It's a tricky thing roechacca, it's a tricky thing.

NM has a great grasp of how to roll organized and effective, even completely and enormously outnumberd . Being afraid of failure was not something I expected to hear from any of your guild honestly . That's not a jab or a insult in any way . Just didn't expect that form of concern from You .

If you can get past that , DC would have some good leadership to follow .

You misunderstood me. I do not fear failure and my guild will follow me with whatever stupid plan or idea I have. Which is why when I decide we should hit arrius with 9 people, they follow me into glorious death against zergs of EP.

However, as a good leader I manage morale as well. And leading a bunch of PUGs or guilds into certain death doesn't help our alliance morale.

Oh ok gotcha . Hopefully someone will step up and try to get the loose groups together for some big pushes on the map . If no one does I'll give it a shot but will need communication with everyone .

Anyone that has more suggestions, wants to lead or help hit me up in game .

People have tried my friend. The problem is, there are a few of these dc guild leaders who are particularly stubborn and will only do it their way. When other suggestions are made, they ignore it and do what they want. Which is fine, it is their right as a guild leader, but it is why it's so hard to organize something as an alliance.

Asgari · November 2014

The problem i have noticed with DC is that like any game where players come and go only a few of the "Leaders" are left. Many can try to fit that role but they just do not know how to strategically do it.

Honestly i don't blame Hova or anyone who doesn't want to run a pug group. Most are willing to join some form of voice chat but in the end aren't equipped with the gear needed to succeed. Many run PvE type builds that simply get rekted in PvP. Worst of all is many cant afford Siege and force those who actively play PvP to lay siege for them to use. There are just too many negatives to out weigh the positives.

Roechacca · November 2014

Well when I fail I try again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again again and again and again and again and again and again

Ghostbane · November 2014

and again

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

I would be willing to try to unite some pug groups. I don't have a leet personality, I'm not overly critical.

I believe mutual respect and group ideas go a long way towards fostering a productive positive environment where we either succeed or fail together as group. I'm not big on finger pointing, there is no I in team. I'm willing to delegate, a good leader is only as good as the people around him, a good leader only becomes exceptional because he has good people around him.

Everyone can be exceptional in a good way. A scout who dint get many kills but reports enemy troop movements is invaluable. Its putting all the little things together that make the big difference.

Everyone can contribute in some way, and no one contribution is greater then another, we will succeed or fail together, we learn together, we overcome together, as a team.

I will set up a raidcall channel in a few days when I get time, I work during the week and have to fit time in, but its doable.

I have some ideas I think would be fun, and I want it to be fun, no stress just do your best, I'm happy with it, you will never hear me berate or speaks towards anyone who paeticipates in any negative manner, I don't think that's productive and just hurts the overall effort, we just have to do the best we can with the cards we have and not expect the impossible.

I'll take in whomever wants to join, ill work with whatever guild wants to, I don't run any guild, but i do have leadership experience, and think I'm a pretty personable guy, I think we can get it done.

I know I won't convice everyone, in fact I'd be surprised if I convince 10 people, just know that those I do convice, your ideas matter, your contributions matter, no matter how small they may seem, they are not, they are just as important as any other contribution.

Roechacca · November 2014

woodsro wrote: »

I would be willing to try to unite some pug groups. I don't have a leet personality, I'm not overly critical.

I believe mutual respect and group ideas go a long way towards fostering a productive positive environment where we either succeed or fail together as group. I'm not big on finger pointing, there is no I in team. I'm willing to delegate, a good leader is only as good as the people around him, a good leader only becomes exceptional because he has good people around him.

Everyone can be exceptional in a good way. A scout who dint get many kills but reports enemy troop movements is invaluable. Its putting all the little things together that make the big difference.

Everyone can contribute in some way, and no one contribution is greater then another, we will succeed or fail together, we learn together, we overcome together, as a team.

I will set up a raidcall channel in a few days when I get time, I work during the week and have to fit time in, but its doable.

I have some ideas I think would be fun, and I want it to be fun, no stress just do your best, I'm happy with it, you will never hear me berate or speaks towards anyone who paeticipates in any negative manner, I don't think that's productive and just hurts the overall effort, we just have to do the best we can with the cards we have and not expect the impossible.

I'll take in whomever wants to join, ill work with whatever guild wants to, I don't run any guild, but i do have leadership experience, and think I'm a pretty personable guy, I think we can get it done.

I know I won't convice everyone, in fact I'd be surprised if I convince 10 people, just know that those I do convice, your ideas matter, your contributions matter, no matter how small they may seem, they are not, they are just as important as any other contribution.

I got Ya back Man . Thanks for stepping up ! I was thinking anyone that wants to join Us just types DC in zone chat because this isn't another Guild it's a United front . I'll throw resources together to rally as many as I can .

EIGHTS · November 2014

Our scroll came home today after ZoS fixed the lag (Although still a little lag).
You see! Not our problem!

DC is best and strong faction in Cyrodiil.

serenenightmare · November 2014

EIGHTS wrote: »

Our scroll came home today after ZoS fixed the lag (Although still a little lag).
You see! Not our problem!

DC is best and strong faction in Cyrodiil.

Not enough were doing /kowtow ._.

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

EIGHTS wrote: »

Our scroll came home today after ZoS fixed the lag (Although still a little lag).
You see! Not our problem!

DC is best and strong faction in Cyrodiil.

I was there! Great job to all involved!

RinaldoGandolphi · November 2014

roechacca wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I would be willing to try to unite some pug groups. I don't have a leet personality, I'm not overly critical.

I believe mutual respect and group ideas go a long way towards fostering a productive positive environment where we either succeed or fail together as group. I'm not big on finger pointing, there is no I in team. I'm willing to delegate, a good leader is only as good as the people around him, a good leader only becomes exceptional because he has good people around him.

Everyone can be exceptional in a good way. A scout who dint get many kills but reports enemy troop movements is invaluable. Its putting all the little things together that make the big difference.

Everyone can contribute in some way, and no one contribution is greater then another, we will succeed or fail together, we learn together, we overcome together, as a team.

I will set up a raidcall channel in a few days when I get time, I work during the week and have to fit time in, but its doable.

I have some ideas I think would be fun, and I want it to be fun, no stress just do your best, I'm happy with it, you will never hear me berate or speaks towards anyone who paeticipates in any negative manner, I don't think that's productive and just hurts the overall effort, we just have to do the best we can with the cards we have and not expect the impossible.

I'll take in whomever wants to join, ill work with whatever guild wants to, I don't run any guild, but i do have leadership experience, and think I'm a pretty personable guy, I think we can get it done.

I know I won't convice everyone, in fact I'd be surprised if I convince 10 people, just know that those I do convice, your ideas matter, your contributions matter, no matter how small they may seem, they are not, they are just as important as any other contribution.

I got Ya back Man . Thanks for stepping up ! I was thinking anyone that wants to join Us just types DC in zone chat because this isn't another Guild it's a United front . I'll throw resources together to rally as many as I can .

I appreciate the support. Thank you! I'll get something set up here in the next few days and try to rally some people as well. I have some ideas I think could prove interesting, at worst we will be able to make enough noise and cause enough distractions to perhaps let NM, Fatal Legion, or others carry out some plans for the greater good with minimal resistance....we will force them to make choices, the more choice we present them with, the greater the chances ate they choose the wrong one

Vilestride · November 2014

I think you are also forgetting that a solid chunk, maybe 50% of players don't care about DC or any other faction winning. There is more incentive to farm as much AP and rank up as much as possible then there is in winning so people will stick to that, not to mention ganking, open field fighting, farming and just trolling your enemy is 100x more entertaining than seiging keep after keep after keep then taking some resources and repeat.

So please tell me, why should me or my guild and any others blindly follow someone we dont much care for, in zone ranting off about what we need to do to win? no thanks. If you think DC needs more leadership, get to it, but from my experience, attempting such a task and worrying about scrolls and score just makes you hate the game, and it gets boring. probably why so many leaders unsub.

Hughezy · November 2014

Giahh wrote: »

I think you are also forgetting that a solid chunk, maybe 50% of players don't care about DC or any other faction winning. There is more incentive to farm as much AP and rank up as much as possible then there is in winning so people will stick to that, not to mention ganking, open field fighting, farming and just trolling your enemy is 100x more entertaining than seiging keep after keep after keep then taking some resources and repeat.

So please tell me, why should me or my guild and any others blindly follow someone we dont much care for, in zone ranting off about what we need to do to win? no thanks. If you think DC needs more leadership, get to it, but from my experience, attempting such a task and worrying about scrolls and score just makes you hate the game, and it gets boring. probably why so many leaders unsub.

I strongly disagree

FluffiestOne · November 2014

Giahh wrote: »

So please tell me, why should me or my guild and any others blindly follow someone we dont much care for, in zone ranting off about what we need to do to win? no thanks. If you think DC needs more leadership, get to it, but from my experience, attempting such a task and worrying about scrolls and score just makes you hate the game, and it gets boring. probably why so many leaders unsub.

This.

Hughezy · November 2014

FluffiestOne wrote: »

Giahh wrote: »

So please tell me, why should me or my guild and any others blindly follow someone we dont much care for, in zone ranting off about what we need to do to win? no thanks. If you think DC needs more leadership, get to it, but from my experience, attempting such a task and worrying about scrolls and score just makes you hate the game, and it gets boring. probably why so many leaders unsub.

This.

That.

DaggerfallTradeMasters · November 2014

In the begin of PvP i started to lead random groups... there were so many people saying: LFG and stuff so i just started an group to unite each other.
Then i started to give my first commands to move to a keep etc.
I did it almost everyday rarely you got a guy in the group say: thanks for lead but after a while i was getting some people again in it who said: hee Templar(oflight) how are you.

I already started PvP events in my trade guild but there were around 10/14 people there who actually played PvP in Thornblade EU Daggerfall.

So i started to make the guild: Daggerfall PvP Masters aka DPM
Guildmembers are much more gratefull then randoms because you dont interact that much with them.
Anyways my guild grew quite kick we currently have 280 active members (around 70 inactive) so i am quite happy.

We got some hardcore and some casual players but we take a lot of times Brindle/Dragonclaw Kingscrest Bloodmayne Farragut, Black boot and some times if we already got some of these we take Drakelowe (easy to take because EP has a huge way to travel.

Just pointing out: Yes leading randoms isn't really gratefull i got some DPM leaders who do it and in that way try to recruit people to our guild.
But its a great way to get some contacts/friends and help your Alliance!

Roechacca · November 2014

Hey guys that want to do your own thing ... I understand . Relax . No ones gonna be yelling commands .

This is for those that want to make a bigger impact on the map and help the faction as a whole .

Why should anyone listen to a single leader ? Well they shouldn't .

The idea behind this is to see what's going on out there and lend support .

kewl · December 2014

Pyatra wrote: »

kewl wrote: »

Roechacca · December 2014

There's still relavence here . Looked at the map this morning N drove straight to the psychiatrist office .

Zintair · December 2014

roechacca wrote: »

There's still relavence here . Looked at the map this morning N drove straight to the psychiatrist office .

Not exactly efficient point wise to sit at a keep and farm with a scroll.

None of my business though.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · December 2014

roechacca wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I personally don't care who it is . Someone from NM , Dee Tic or who ever else was mentioned . Someone that knows the stratedgy of controlling the game map . Someone that can run a campaign . Sure their gonna make mistakes . BFD ! I say we give someone a shot . Then the next campaign if it didn't work for them , try a new person or keep the old .

TBH, one of the primary reasons why I don't lead PUGs is because there's already a lot of wannabe strategists spamming in zone. Also, it's hard to lead people when they aren't in group or TS, and it's a big headache to try to get a ton of people to do one thing or get organized. Coupled with the fact of, I always blame myself for any failure my guild has, I'd be shouldering a lot of guilt because large PUG groups are bound to fail.

Also, the strategies I would use, would require my enemies not to know. And we definitely have had spies in our zone chat before, so trying to strategize through zone chat, like hit X as a distraction, show up at Y for the real assault, would just wind up with the enemy faction sitting at Y ready to ambush us.

It's a tricky thing roechacca, it's a tricky thing.

NM has a great grasp of how to roll organized and effective, even completely and enormously outnumberd . Being afraid of failure was not something I expected to hear from any of your guild honestly . That's not a jab or a insult in any way . Just didn't expect that form of concern from You .

If you can get past that , DC would have some good leadership to follow .

Nm is effective because they are good players who stay grouped and always follow the leader and people who don't want to follow the leader are kicked. Not because anyone is a jerk but because that is what makes them good. it doesn't sound like fear to me just smart guy that knows leading a bunch of casuals who don't want to use ts is a tough gig with poor returns for the effort.

Roechacca · December 2014

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

Lfehova wrote: »

roechacca wrote: »

I personally don't care who it is . Someone from NM , Dee Tic or who ever else was mentioned . Someone that knows the stratedgy of controlling the game map . Someone that can run a campaign . Sure their gonna make mistakes . BFD ! I say we give someone a shot . Then the next campaign if it didn't work for them , try a new person or keep the old .

TBH, one of the primary reasons why I don't lead PUGs is because there's already a lot of wannabe strategists spamming in zone. Also, it's hard to lead people when they aren't in group or TS, and it's a big headache to try to get a ton of people to do one thing or get organized. Coupled with the fact of, I always blame myself for any failure my guild has, I'd be shouldering a lot of guilt because large PUG groups are bound to fail.

Also, the strategies I would use, would require my enemies not to know. And we definitely have had spies in our zone chat before, so trying to strategize through zone chat, like hit X as a distraction, show up at Y for the real assault, would just wind up with the enemy faction sitting at Y ready to ambush us.

It's a tricky thing roechacca, it's a tricky thing.

NM has a great grasp of how to roll organized and effective, even completely and enormously outnumberd . Being afraid of failure was not something I expected to hear from any of your guild honestly . That's not a jab or a insult in any way . Just didn't expect that form of concern from You .

If you can get past that , DC would have some good leadership to follow .

Nm is effective because they are good players who stay grouped and always follow the leader and people who don't want to follow the leader are kicked. Not because anyone is a jerk but because that is what makes them good. it doesn't sound like fear to me just smart guy that knows leading a bunch of casuals who don't want to use ts is a tough gig with poor returns for the effort.

I've grouped with NM since that post was made . No one ever accused them of being jerks . They have in fact lead many open groups since that post and have had significant results . Sometimes it is a poor result , sometimes it's not .

Since that post and this thread more people have been listening and helping . I have nothing but a good time when I group in their open groups and have nothing but good things to say about them . When they split off to do their own thing , I get it and never take it personal . I use to be in a guild exactly like that in another game . The people that do get upset just don't get it . If they were in the guild , they'd enjoy the same privileges . They just don't accept everyone , which is very smart on their behalf .