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The Major issue with viable Templar DPS at end-game
Pmarsico9
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It's very simple:
1) Have to stack magicka and magicka recovery due to lack of self-sustainability for magicka. This means that you are forced into infused gear, meaning your crit is trash.
2) The Dawn's Wrath tree has one decent spell (Reflective Light) for DPS. Solar Flare is absolutely terrible because the DPM and bonus DPM of its debuff mean it's still not worth casting. The 40% healing debuff is good for PVP, but odious in PVE. Blinding Flashes is good for tanking, but the rest of the tree is terrible. Backlash's mechanics are terrible. Eclipse is not a DPS talent at all.
How to fix:
1) Templar's gain magicka regeneration for each Aedric Spear and/or Dawn's Wrath ability on their bars.
-OR-
Flatly increase damage across the board much more than they currently are.
2) No matter what you do, Backlash and the damage Debuff side of Solar Flare and its morphs need complete reworks.
Solar Flare Fix: Puts a buff on the Templar instead of a debuff on the targets and it scales with spell power/weapon damage (aka spell/weapon is increased by 50% on next attack.) That kind of scaling would insure it's ALWAYS worth using. This would affect Solar Barrage, so Solar Barrage should potentially make affected targets do less damage since it fits better with a melee Templar and Tanklar better. Dark Flare's debuff works well as it is.
Backlash needs a complete re-do: Baseline: All damage you do for 8 seconds heals all nearby targets for 40% of the damage done. (High Magicka Cost)
Morph A: You also gain a shield for an additional 40% of the damage done (plays well with tanklar and as personal CD.)
Morph B: Your critical strike chance is increased by 20% while active.
1) Have to stack magicka and magicka recovery due to lack of self-sustainability for magicka. This means that you are forced into infused gear, meaning your crit is trash.
2) The Dawn's Wrath tree has one decent spell (Reflective Light) for DPS. Solar Flare is absolutely terrible because the DPM and bonus DPM of its debuff mean it's still not worth casting. The 40% healing debuff is good for PVP, but odious in PVE. Blinding Flashes is good for tanking, but the rest of the tree is terrible. Backlash's mechanics are terrible. Eclipse is not a DPS talent at all.
How to fix:
1) Templar's gain magicka regeneration for each Aedric Spear and/or Dawn's Wrath ability on their bars.
-OR-
Flatly increase damage across the board much more than they currently are.
2) No matter what you do, Backlash and the damage Debuff side of Solar Flare and its morphs need complete reworks.
Solar Flare Fix: Puts a buff on the Templar instead of a debuff on the targets and it scales with spell power/weapon damage (aka spell/weapon is increased by 50% on next attack.) That kind of scaling would insure it's ALWAYS worth using. This would affect Solar Barrage, so Solar Barrage should potentially make affected targets do less damage since it fits better with a melee Templar and Tanklar better. Dark Flare's debuff works well as it is.
Backlash needs a complete re-do: Baseline: All damage you do for 8 seconds heals all nearby targets for 40% of the damage done. (High Magicka Cost)
Morph A: You also gain a shield for an additional 40% of the damage done (plays well with tanklar and as personal CD.)
Morph B: Your critical strike chance is increased by 20% while active.
3
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jesterstear✭✭✭How to fix:
1) Templar's gain magicka regeneration for each Aedric Spear and/or Dawn's Wrath ability on their bars.
-OR-
Flatly increase damage across the board much more than they currently are.
2) No matter what you do, Backlash and the damage Debuff side of Solar Flare and its morphs need complete reworks.
I like the idea of line bonuses, but to be balanced (we have already improved so much compared to a month ago) may I suggest
1) Templar's gain % damage increase for Aedric Spear/Dawn's wrath abilities for each one slotted, but also % reduction in healing for each one slotted.
Can't have top of the line DPS at the same time as top of the line healing or other classes will complain.1 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭jesterstear wrote: »How to fix:
1) Templar's gain magicka regeneration for each Aedric Spear and/or Dawn's Wrath ability on their bars.
-OR-
Flatly increase damage across the board much more than they currently are.
2) No matter what you do, Backlash and the damage Debuff side of Solar Flare and its morphs need complete reworks.
I like the idea of line bonuses, but to be balanced (we have already improved so much compared to a month ago) may I suggest
1) Templar's gain % damage increase for Aedric Spear/Dawn's wrath abilities for each one slotted, but also % reduction in healing for each one slotted.
Can't have top of the line DPS at the same time as top of the line healing or other classes will complain.
That's not a bad idea. The other idea would be to make it so you got a flat magicka regen boost ONLY when you had 5 aedric spear/dawn's wrath/non-resto-staff-weapon-abilities or a mix of all on your bars.
Healing loadouts on bar two would be severely gimped since you wouldn't be wearing regen gear.
The other thing I didn't mention is that Aedric Spear isn't actually bad off. Luminous Shards, Puncturing Strikes, and Crescent Sweep all play very well together. The issue is that they are melee. And no other class is tied to melee completely. Even then Aedric is a little low.
I can hold 700 in full regen gear single target.0 -
I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
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Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stopped reading at backlash being useless.
I dont think it's useless, but it'd be more useful with no cast time or with no damage limit.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
These are far from massively sweeping changes.
But hey, it's fine that anybody that wants to do competitive Trials and plays a Templar has to be lucky enough to be the token healer or has no shot at participating at all.1 -
Kcttocs✭✭✭I haven't made it to end game yet, but I don't mind anything that makes my Templar more powerful, although I cruise through most VR content easily already, I am always for more power
keep up the suggestions! 0 -
dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
These are far from massively sweeping changes.
But hey, it's fine that anybody that wants to do competitive Trials and plays a Templar has to be lucky enough to be the token healer or has no shot at participating at all.
I DPs and heal in competitive trial group so...0 -
dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
These are far from massively sweeping changes.
But hey, it's fine that anybody that wants to do competitive Trials and plays a Templar has to be lucky enough to be the token healer or has no shot at participating at all.
These are sweeping changes because it would sweepingly change play for builds other than the one you have in mind.0 -
One idea I'd considered was to-- for Templars exclusively-- combine the two resources into a single, new resource bar, call it "Zeal" for reference here, enabling all skills the Templar uses (be they weapon skills or class skiils) to source from that bar in place of magicka and stamina. So if you would have 1,700 magicka and 1,200 stamina, you'd instead have 2,900 Zeal.0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
These are far from massively sweeping changes.
But hey, it's fine that anybody that wants to do competitive Trials and plays a Templar has to be lucky enough to be the token healer or has no shot at participating at all.
I DPs and heal in competitive trial group so...
Healing, sure, but your group isn't competitive if you are DPSing. Sorry to break it to you.1 -
Isarii✭✭✭✭jesterstear wrote: »How to fix:
1) Templar's gain magicka regeneration for each Aedric Spear and/or Dawn's Wrath ability on their bars.
-OR-
Flatly increase damage across the board much more than they currently are.
2) No matter what you do, Backlash and the damage Debuff side of Solar Flare and its morphs need complete reworks.
I like the idea of line bonuses, but to be balanced (we have already improved so much compared to a month ago) may I suggest
1) Templar's gain % damage increase for Aedric Spear/Dawn's wrath abilities for each one slotted, but also % reduction in healing for each one slotted.
Can't have top of the line DPS at the same time as top of the line healing or other classes will complain.
Counter-point: Don't make it passive regen for each ability slotted (this would be subject to overcharge anyway), make it a passive that provides magicka regen on doing damage to an enemy with a Templar spell.Isarii Aloroth - PC-NA | Ebonheart Pact | Dunmer | Magicka Nightblade0 -
dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
These are far from massively sweeping changes.
But hey, it's fine that anybody that wants to do competitive Trials and plays a Templar has to be lucky enough to be the token healer or has no shot at participating at all.
I DPs and heal in competitive trial group so...
Healing, sure, but your group isn't competitive if you are DPSing. Sorry to break it to you.
Why is Pmarsico so mad
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Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭jesterstear wrote: »How to fix:
1) Templar's gain magicka regeneration for each Aedric Spear and/or Dawn's Wrath ability on their bars.
-OR-
Flatly increase damage across the board much more than they currently are.
2) No matter what you do, Backlash and the damage Debuff side of Solar Flare and its morphs need complete reworks.
I like the idea of line bonuses, but to be balanced (we have already improved so much compared to a month ago) may I suggest
1) Templar's gain % damage increase for Aedric Spear/Dawn's wrath abilities for each one slotted, but also % reduction in healing for each one slotted.
Can't have top of the line DPS at the same time as top of the line healing or other classes will complain.
Counter-point: Don't make it passive regen for each ability slotted (this would be subject to overcharge anyway), make it a passive that provides magicka regen on doing damage to an enemy with a Templar spell.
Also a very good idea. But it would have to be structured in a manner to not foster a DPS-Heal-DPS-Heal means of gaining infinite Magicka for Templar healers.0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭Akuydab14_ESO wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »I vastly dislike these threads where someone posts a large amount of sweeping changes, which usually is only taking into account their build and not the totality of the game. I'm v12 Templar and I dissaprove of these suggested changes
These are far from massively sweeping changes.
But hey, it's fine that anybody that wants to do competitive Trials and plays a Templar has to be lucky enough to be the token healer or has no shot at participating at all.
I DPs and heal in competitive trial group so...
Healing, sure, but your group isn't competitive if you are DPSing. Sorry to break it to you.
Why is Pmarsico so mad
Try joining a guild that is actually doing 11-15 minute Trial runs as a Templar.1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Useless is not quite the right word for backlash. Poorly designed is better. Due to the design you should never have more than 1 Temp dps in the group. Power of the light is a part of most Temp dps builds and you do not want two Templar casting it.
No other class has such a major component of their dps tied to a mechanic that should only be used by one person.
Also, it is not just the about the dps, Templar have poor utility and group synergy in general. Veil of blades, negate, and banner are more valuable to a trials group than either Temp dps ultimate.Edited by timidobserver on August 8, 2014 1:32PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Useless is not quite the right word for backlash. Poorly designed is better. Due to the design you should never have more than 1 Temp dps in the group. Power of the light is a part of most Temp dps builds and you do not want two Templar casting it.
No other class has such a major component of their dps tied to a mechanic that should only be used by one person.
Also, it is not just the about the dps, Templar have poor utility and group synergy in general. Veil of blades, negate, and banner are more valuable to a trials group than either Temp dps ultimate.
Agreed, but the real problem with Backlash/Power of the Light is that it is capped. The damage cap means that you delay your own damage for however long it takes to get to that cap to deal 33% more damage. It's simply unviable in realistic situations. It really needs a re-work because the cap would have to be removed for it to work and that would be terrible in PVP.
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Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Templar skills take too long even after casting. Dark Flare? 1.3 seconds to leave your hand, then another second or so to slowly loop through the air and land on enemy's head. Sun Fire? Leaves hand instantly but takes its sweet old time to float over to enemy. Blazing Spear? Leaves hand instantly, but again does a big looping motion up into the air before coming back down and actually activating the damage. Backlash? 1.5 seconds before leaving hand, then 7.2 seconds before you get the damage. And the damage is too limited to be worth 8.7 seconds before it kicks in.
Was this on purpose to limit DPS? Or did they get too excited by these neat casting animations (and they do look awesome!) that they did not realize the effect it was going to have on gameplay?1 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
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Agreed, but the real problem with Backlash/Power of the Light is that it is capped. The damage cap means that you delay your own damage for however long it takes to get to that cap to deal 33% more damage. It's simply unviable in realistic situations. It really needs a re-work because the cap would have to be removed for it to work and that would be terrible in PVP.
Perhaps the cap should be a percentage of the enemy's max health? That would scale so it was equally effective against a 100,000 health dungeon monster and against a 3,000 health PvP player. But the flat cap makes it useless in PvE because the cap is too low to matter against bosses and the casting time and damage delay is not worth the hassle for trash mobs.0 -
guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭Dagoth_Rac wrote: »Templar skills take too long even after casting. Dark Flare? 1.3 seconds to leave your hand, then another second or so to slowly loop through the air and land on enemy's head. Sun Fire? Leaves hand instantly but takes its sweet old time to float over to enemy. Blazing Spear? Leaves hand instantly, but again does a big looping motion up into the air before coming back down and actually activating the damage. Backlash? 1.5 seconds before leaving hand, then 7.2 seconds before you get the damage. And the damage is too limited to be worth 8.7 seconds before it kicks in.
Was this on purpose to limit DPS? Or did they get too excited by these neat casting animations (and they do look awesome!) that they did not realize the effect it was going to have on gameplay?
Flight time delays are completely irrelevant for static dps purposes. While there are problems with templar dps, this is not one of them. And even in pvp, delays are not always a problem, for your opener dark flare, sun fire and any instant skill can be cast in order and will hit simultaneously which is actually an advantage for that situation.Edited by guybrushtb16_ESO on August 8, 2014 5:43PM2 -
Iove✭✭✭✭Actually, if you fire a Solar Flare and then a Sun Fire straight after, your Sun Fire will NOT get the extra damage from the previous flare. You must wait at least 1 second between the Solar Flare and THEN do the Sun Fire, and it might get the damage buff then. If you're lucky. THIS is the problem with our DPS. I have an awesome spell for weaving in between other abilities, but it doesn't actually work as it says in the tooltip. I have been testing this endlessly with combat logs.
Furthermore, a casted spell should land instantly due to giving people plenty of time to interrupt you before it goes off, for the sake of PvP balance.
Another issue here is why Templar abilities such as Solar Flare and Nova which clearly sound like FIRE damage, are instead magic damage, while Sun Fire is the only one that is actually fire damage. This inconsistency makes Templars stuck between race skill line choices. Jack of all trades, master of none. Unlike the DK which have tons of fire damage and benefit from fire damage increases of certain races.
- LoveEdited by Iove on August 11, 2014 9:44AM0 -
Pmarsico9✭✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »Actually, if you fire a Solar Flare and then a Sun Fire straight after, your Sun Fire will NOT get the extra damage from the previous flare. You must wait at least 1 second between the Solar Flare and THEN do the Sun Fire, and it might get the damage buff then. If you're lucky. THIS is the problem with our DPS. I have an awesome spell for weaving in between other abilities, but it doesn't actually work as it says in the tooltip. I have been testing this endlessly with combat logs.
Furthermore, a casted spell should land instantly due to giving people plenty of time to interrupt you before it goes off, for the sake of PvP balance.
Another issue here is why Templar abilities such as Solar Flare and Nova which clearly sound like FIRE damage, are instead magic damage, while Sun Fire is the only one that is actually fire damage. This inconsistency makes Templars stuck between race skill line choices. Jack of all trades, master of none. Unlike the DK which have tons of fire damage and benefit from fire damage increases of certain races.
- Love
I think it's inarguable that both Dark Flare and Backlash are major clogs in the drain of templar DPS.
Those two spells and the utter lack of sustainable magicka regeneration without specifically gearing for it compared to other classes.
Dark Flare and Backlash should both be looked at, with Backlash being a candidate for an entire re-work into something more wieldy and Dark Flare getting some more damage.0
