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An open letter
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traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭KhajitFurTrader wrote: »
Granted, the Megaserver technology, regardless how many advantages it may have, also has its flaws. A "shard", "realm" or "server", however you may call it, may help to build a sense of community, or even identity, not in the least due to its advertised "type" (e.g. PvE, PvP, RP, etc.). In other games, this sense has progressively been hollowed out by enabling cross server zones/arenas, server transfers, and/or merging servers together due to low population, but I guess customer convenience beats strict server separation every time.
I agree that due to (necessary) phasing and instancing, a sense of community on a Megaserver does feel rather arbitrary. I for one would have welcomed the usage of the announced player questionnaire and subsequent "placing in a fitting phase" feature, and was left quite baffled when it failed to materialize on early access/launch. AFAIR, an "official" explanation of its absence hasn't been given until now; I seem to remember reading somewhere that it has bee scrapped due to taxing the server too much.
It's a shame, really. There are many non-English speakers on the EU server who feel quite inhibited on chatting up strangers, because they usually cannot know their nationality and command of the English language.
I'm an old EQ player, and I really am not a big fan of instances...but I have dealt with them in various games over the years... kind of a sad fact of life.
I am glad ESO has pub dungeons though... Kinda wish they were bigger.
Was playing WOW under pressure by friends at the time they went cross server for the dungeons... and it became jackass roulette.
It is also a shame a lot of guilds wereformed a long time ago and go from game to game and really don't interact much with other groups. I'm a member of a 12 person guild that dates back to EQ that decided not to go into ESO in beta (they are in Wildstar or WOW now.. meh). It has been hard over the years to invite new people in different games. If I let an ESO player on the TS server, i'd probably get uninvited from holiday events ha ha.
It makes me a little sad, because my guild met over about 3 months of sitting on various hills camping/killing things in EQ 1. Random people that pretty much played at the same time (and we played with hundreds of people we did not guild with too)... but now nobody has time for new random people.
I will admit I'm becoming a name snob. I won't join groups run by BobsElf, vampiremasta and Touches-your-mom.Edited by traigusb14_ESO2 on August 1, 2014 7:14PM2 -
KhajitFurTrader✭✭✭✭✭
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My question was intentionally phrased provocatively.KhajitFurTrader wrote: »
Pray tell, how can it be an issue of game design if people nowadays don't possess, or don't want to apply, social skills anymore?
This illustrates one of the most misunderstood aspects of MMOs today.
People nowadays don't lack the desire to apply social skills, they just don't see the need for that to be centred around grouping for combat. Games today are very much quest/storyline-based and that in any event tends to mitigate against routine grouping a lot of the time. I think TESO mirrors SWTOR in that respect.
Where the game design does fall down in respect of socialising in my view, is in the provision of multiple guild membership which means that few guilds are likely to form any sort of community spirit among their members, as well as the lack of a public trading system - even the unofficial trading hub that was East Commonlands tunnel in EQ had more community spirit than a small number of players buying and selling within their own restricted trading guilds in TESO.
It's a well-known fact that, whenever there are times of need (e.g. a catastrophe, a natural disaster, etc.), most people will throw in their lot unquestioned, as well as unquestioning, and share their resources willingly. Translated to games, it is said of EQ that landscape mobs were so dangerous, and penalties of death were so forbidding, that grouping was more or less a given; and in a society/environment were the prosperity, or bare survival, of an individual depends on the goodwill of others, gaining and maintaining a good reputation, be it in the general community or in thigh-knit groups/guilds, is key to continued success. An individual may thus contribute to the identity-generating process of a group of peers, and in turn gets his identity shaped and defined by the group. Most human beings crave for a sense of connection to others, it's kinda built in...
Fast forward a few years after EQ, and we have games where individuality and independence is paramount. They suggest that the player is the hero of a story, the sole center of attention, and others are just entertaining sidekicks at best.
[N.B.: the thought "Separate them from the herd, so you can milk them better" just crossed my mind.]
Of course, if there is no pressure from outside, a sort of "economy of socializing" sets in. Why group if you don't have to? If there are no advantages (or even obstacles to it, whether they're intended or not) to be had from grouping, why do it at all? Going full circle, WoW has demonstrated how to streamline and incentivize the grouping process with minimal social interaction (LFD, Scenarios, LFR).
So I agree, game design can play an important role in the socializing and grouping behavior of the players. But the questions that have to be asked today are:
Should it?
If so, what are the costs of doing it to a certain extend?Edited by KhajitFurTrader on August 1, 2014 8:09PM0 -
traigusb14_ESO2✭✭✭✭✭KhajitFurTrader wrote: »Should it?
If so, what are the costs of doing it to a certain extend?
I dunno... but Community helped hold the older games together. I have RL friends I met in EQ all over the country, and 2 in Europe. We see each other a couple of times a year, and I have 2 kids named after me (my real name).
people played a long time and felt bad about leaving.
Today we have a lot of "first month locusts." Play a game for a month and move on. Inflates MMO startup costs on hardware something awful probably.
Community is key for long term game health.
Everyone thought SWG's Entertainers were stupid and not going to work pre-beta, but the forced social hubs (in an otherwise solo friendly game) helped draw the community together. They were a great success, and the Cantinas became great for crafters and people LFG to find other people.
People didn't like forced grouping, corpse runs, XP loss and a whole lot of other stuff... I've always gone back and forth on it... but in a lot of ways they made a better game.
We used to have characters, and what we did were our stories... Now we all do quests and mostly have the same story (we do get some choices in ESO).
Sandbox (EQ1 SWG etc) - do whatever, someone may have a task for you, or may collect rat livers. good luck with that.
Loose Questing (EQ2, Old WOW) here are some quests, you can also grind or do whatever. Yay we all got the same sword, but we did some different stuff before we hit max level.
Hero Questing (Conan, ESO, WOW after adding Goblin starting area) We are all This guy, and have our best friend Steve, and a dog named Larry. We all created a volcano, and the best milkshake eva.
People think they don't like replayable content... but we will sit on the same hill in EQ1 for 3 weeks, or grind Craiglorn and have fun. It is being the same guy twice that gets us. IN ESO people don't have a problem playing the other 2 sides with different characters, many don't have trouble playing all 3 sides with 1 character... but a lot have a problem playing all 3 sides with multiple characters. The adventures of character A and Character B are 99% the same. they are the same person in a different hat. At that point people will actually choose to kill zombies for 11 levels...because it is different... go figure.
Sometimes there are vitamins in the spinach we claim we don't want to eat...
Someday, someone is going to recreate an old style MMO with a budget (which is not all about penalties like most people(even a lot of devs) think).... and those people will make a lot of money and not really be competing with F2P and and short attention span over scripted games... I hope3 -
smeeprocketnub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭KhajitFurTrader wrote: »
Pray tell, how can it be an issue of game design if people nowadays don't possess, or don't want to apply, social skills anymore?
This illustrates one of the most misunderstood aspects of MMOs today.
People nowadays don't lack the desire to apply social skills, they just don't see the need for that to be centred around grouping for combat. Games today are very much quest/storyline-based and that in any event tends to mitigate against routine grouping a lot of the time. I think TESO mirrors SWTOR in that respect.
Where the game design does fall down in respect of socialising in my view, is in the provision of multiple guild membership which means that few guilds are likely to form any sort of community spirit among their members, as well as the lack of a public trading system - even the unofficial trading hub that was East Commonlands tunnel in EQ had more community spirit than a small number of players buying and selling within their own restricted trading guilds in TESO.
Oh I miss EC tunnel, and all those *** fledgling alchemists undercutting my barely profitable SoW potion prices. >:(Dear Sister, I do not spread rumors, I create them.2 -
Redlag✭✭✭In UO and DAoC I have met people that have become such good friends that we talk on the phone. I haven't met one person that I remember in ESO. To me it's just a shame how the games are created that we don't even know anyone.
To me it's a Ventrilo or guild website thing and that's just awful. I feel like the games are created with the aspect of Ventrilo entertaining people and if you listen close enough you hear people justifying design with... I enjoy this.. friends and me were in vent laughing and having fun for hours..1 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭
Its aggravating and hellish to falter on content that you know if you had help with you could just bypass so easily.
There was a time in mmo history that people would come and help you without making you out to be the worst player in mmo history.
I tell you this friend. The way the game is made dictates personalities. In an RVR AVA game in Lore and yore past they wouldn't dare put you down when they know they need your help. That's the [snip] of today, a guild can play elitist. When in before they needed you cooperation to take a keep. They use to rely on you, as the average player, and use to have to treat you with respect to get anything done. I say [snip] you mmo maker. Youre a drag downhill ugly bother.
While I fully agree with the two parts I separated from the rest....that last bit I don't agree with. It's not game design that has changed the playerbase or its attittude. I'm not sure if it CAN be pinned on any one thing, really.
I think it's a combination of a different generation's values and anonymity of the internet that lets/makes people that way, NOT the game itself or the way its designed. The game is far from perfect to be sure....and it's taking steps down paths I don't really want to go...but for now it's fun enough and it's not responsible for how people act.
I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.1 -
Redlag✭✭✭MercyKilling wrote: »
Its aggravating and hellish to falter on content that you know if you had help with you could just bypass so easily.
There was a time in mmo history that people would come and help you without making you out to be the worst player in mmo history.
I tell you this friend. The way the game is made dictates personalities. In an RVR AVA game in Lore and yore past they wouldn't dare put you down when they know they need your help. That's the [snip] of today, a guild can play elitist. When in before they needed you cooperation to take a keep. They use to rely on you, as the average player, and use to have to treat you with respect to get anything done. I say [snip] you mmo maker. Youre a drag downhill ugly bother.
While I fully agree with the two parts I separated from the rest....that last bit I don't agree with. It's not game design that has changed the playerbase or its attittude. I'm not sure if it CAN be pinned on any one thing, really.
I think it's a combination of a different generation's values and anonymity of the internet that lets/makes people that way, NOT the game itself or the way its designed. The game is far from perfect to be sure....and it's taking steps down paths I don't really want to go...but for now it's fun enough and it's not responsible for how people act.
I have to disagree with you, respectfully. I've seen the changes in players Ive known for ages when playing DAoC compared to WoW. in DAoC we needed each other. Before the 8x8 group elitism we experienced the game for what it was. A relic raid. We all had a piece in it. We were all ashamed of losing our relics. It meant we all sucked if we lost them. I seen level 32s come out to fight level 50s man. It meant flat out the other realm was better than us. We didn't like that.
In new age gaming that caters to guilds what we get is guild created content. Where we abandon alliance and allegiance of factionally created content and we struggle to prove ourselves better. In WoW's horde vs alliance warfare I watched the game change from us teaming up as alliances into always trash talking the same realm's guild member in order to steal healers and tanks. To make your peers seem lesser than you and for your guild to strive for was stealing healers and tanks. You've all heard Leroy Jenkins, right? Well let me tell you. I was on their server. I was in a bad ass guild from DAoC that prided itself on good PvP. They were from EQ. I was not prepared for what was to come.
As we wanted to be friends with all allys. They seen us as their competitors. They assaulted my guild on every level on forums. From leadership to player skills. We were good. really good. I couldn't undertand why they were lying. I would save their guild leaders from horde and when we talked on the boards, they would say that I sucked. I had fought many horde by then. I had ran 2-3 players in a circle. These guys on my team were tearing me down after I had saved their asses. It wasnt until I started raiding that I understood politics. I came from DAoC we had to be friends. These guys came from EQ. They knew something else. YOU CAN NOT RAID WITHOUT HEALERS AND TANKS. These guys were assaulting us so they could POACH our players. In the end we were good. Players were going back and forth like blood brothers. Until you didn't know the difference.
I am telling you. A game will dictate personalities.
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dafraorb16_ESO✭✭✭TESO needs more pvp content and balancing and must follow the DAOC route.
Or another RvR game will die1 -
Redlag✭✭✭dafraorb16_ESO wrote: »TESO needs more pvp content and balancing and must follow the DAOC route.
Or another RvR game will die
You know. Matt hates Emain. It was players ignoring his keep battle awesome. We just wanted to kill each other. Unless he can let go. It doesn't matter, he wants us centered on keeps. Not what we enjoy. Until he faces his failures. which are very few, and caters to us war mongers. This game isn't going further.
This isn't from disgruntled. This is from wants to have fun. Until Matt gives in. We're just gonna get force fed. He's not into finding out why we keep regurgitating. He's about finding the concoction to make us eat his art. BUT, he doesn't realize we already liked the Picasso abstract of his art that we crave it now.
I say to Matt. Give us murder. When we go face a keep. Let it be out of pride or just simply somewhere for us to kill to earn RPs. Stop trying to force feed us. Embrace you DAoC PVP awesome successes. Stop Persecuting us for enjoying death more than an a keep take. Just give in and allow it. Make more money than any game copying WoW. Be your sad f'ed, misinterpreted invention of of RVR. I know you'll make money when you give into what you created accidently. Let falling keeps be an alarm for death and destruction.. where I should go to kill for RPS... FEED MATT. FEED ME. Im starving for fun.
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Xeres14✭✭✭In UO and DAoC I have met people that have become such good friends that we talk on the phone. I haven't met one person that I remember in ESO. To me it's just a shame how the games are created that we don't even know anyone.
To me it's a Ventrilo or guild website thing and that's just awful. I feel like the games are created with the aspect of Ventrilo entertaining people and if you listen close enough you hear people justifying design with... I enjoy this.. friends and me were in vent laughing and having fun for hours..
Yeah I know what you mean. In UO our guild used to go to the guild house at 8:00 PM Eastern every night and figure out what we wanted to do. Some times we'd go to a tough area. Some times we'd do a PvP event. Some times we just sat there and talked with each other about the game and RL stuff.
It's all changed though. Remember that was 10+ years ago.2 -
Redlag✭✭✭In UO and DAoC I have met people that have become such good friends that we talk on the phone. I haven't met one person that I remember in ESO. To me it's just a shame how the games are created that we don't even know anyone.
To me it's a Ventrilo or guild website thing and that's just awful. I feel like the games are created with the aspect of Ventrilo entertaining people and if you listen close enough you hear people justifying design with... I enjoy this.. friends and me were in vent laughing and having fun for hours..
Yeah I know what you mean. In UO our guild used to go to the guild house at 8:00 PM Eastern every night and figure out what we wanted to do. Some times we'd go to a tough area. Some times we'd do a PvP event. Some times we just sat there and talked with each other about the game and RL stuff.
It's all changed though. Remember that was 10+ years ago.
I was in UO on 9/11. Its impossible here today to recreate what I've been through. UO players MADE FLAGS OF OUR COUNTRY out of bits and pieces of UO trash that covered everything. We were sad, we were scared, we didn't know if anyone else was the next target. In UO everyone could see your discards if you threw them out .You didn't destroy them. You simply put them on the ground and everyone could see them and decide to take them..
I was so scared for my family. I kept my sons out of school. My wife and I took off of work. I logged into UO to talk about things with my only friends. I found a world standing up. I found Americans making flags everywhere. I found foreigners making flags for us to support us. To support us. I was so *** scared for my children, my family. In this awkward universe we found a way for us to stand by ourselves. We refuse to give in. W costumed flags of my country in some video game toil that was meaningless. Ive killed people in a game. These on this day knew they were never killed by me. I've camped them. I'vetooken things from them in the hardest game to play. Where when I kill you I can loot your body. These people knew me and hated me. On that day, we all loved each other in ways...to encourage each other, to reassure each other, to talk openly out of my murderous character's Beauvoir. There was so much war before. But not that day... We'd do anything for each other.
I don't even know what im talking about anymore. Maybe just a human numbness that likes to forget/ Maybe I hope one of you carries it on father..
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