Sadly, I'm not sure if a melee build will ever be able to match a ranged build for end-game fights.

Even if the actual damage numbers get to the point where they are similar, you will still have the issue of boss mechanics. One of the biggest downsides to playing a melee build (whether it's stamina or magicak based) is the need to get out of the boss AoE is most VR dungeons or trials. Any time you need to move, your DPS will take a hit. Standing at range and unloading without the fear of getting blasted by a boss mechanic has always been a major advantage for these builds.

Also, as Andy said, ult generation isn't nearly as good without some sort of DoT or HoT running and Veil takes a big hit if you're running a stamina build.

I appreciate the feedback guys, Especially Andy for his numbers-specific feedback. Unfortunately though, Andy, I'm a little confused by your post. Nowhere had I read that flurry was the ability to be spammed in a DW build, but I suppose I also haven't been actively looking.

What I saw when the PTS was live and those were testing incapacitate is that flying blade would be the superior stamina dump for DW. TBH I never saw flurry, with it's clunky animation time, as a more efficient stamina dump than flying blade. Have you tried this heavy attack animation clipping with flying blade instead of flurry?

And the results with 2h don't surprise me, tbh. The reason I asked about it is because someone in the same discussion when this patch was in the PTS mentioned that clipping wrecking blows may have some respectable output with the right gear.

However, without proper stamina damage gear etc, wrecking blow+light attacks alone hovered around 500dps sustained for me(I'll go back and double check). This is of course with no group buffs. I suppose my question here is that I'm not sure 2h is as un-doable as some seem to think. With a proper ultimate, a few more supporting abilities, and the right gear, I'd say 7-800 dps with a 2h shouldn't be all too hard to achieve.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Unfortunately though, Andy, I'm a little confused by your post. Nowhere had I read that flurry was the ability to be spammed in a DW build, but I suppose I also haven't been actively looking.

Here is the link to my build

At a guess, it's because it uses very little stamina, next to nothing. If you're using it to cancel animations you're getting a good chunk of damage for very little stamina.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

If the only issue is stamina cost, which I'm sure can be worked around, then flying blade should be the ideal stamina dump.

The reason is relatively simple, at usual V12 endgame values (174 WD + hundings + 2064 stamina + DK buff + 3x WD rings/neck) we get those values:

Flurry: 5x 119 +1x 323 damage
Flying Blade: 1x 466 damage
Heavy attack: 202 + 248 damage

Flurry + Heavy attack is 2.5s "cast time" in average = 918dmg + 450 damage = 547 dps
Flying Blade + Heavy is 1.7s "cast time" in average = 466 + 450 = 539 dps

So both combo's can deal around the same dps, but flying blade is much more stamina intensive, so the only advantage would be attack range. The problem is we need to do a heavy attack, so we completely loose this advantage in this combo. Both combos are also very similar to play so i don't see any advantage using flying blade over flurry.

Also as u can see actually just "spaming" Flying blade is a DPS loss, in comparison to combine it with a heavy/light attack cancel. U only get 466 dps by spaming flying blade every second and u cant get this time any lower.


PS: Also keep in mind that atm this only seem to work, because for some strange reason we get full DW heavy attack damage, instead of damage scaled down to the "channel" time. I suspect this has to-do with Rapid Strikes atk speed bonus and haste, so that ESo is not correctly capable to proper time the channel time on those server-client conditions. This means we should actually not get the full DW heavy attack damage, since u can't do the same with Staffs/2h. So thats a "buggy" advantage for DW heavy attack cancel's.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

However there's one bit of info that hasn't been brought up regarding flying blade/heavy attack rotations.

The idea in this case is that the heavy attacks are clipped to cause the length of the partial heavy attack charge along with the flying blade to equal that of any other classes general light attack clipping rotation: 1.3 seconds. (at least that is what I was told)

The 1.7s are already "perfectly" clipped DW heavy attacks and the 1.3s are for clipping staff light attacks "perfectly" not DW. DW+Light attacks are around 1.15s not 1.3s, but there is no way to do a DW skill+heavy attack in 1.3s, not even a partially. The 1.7s are already the absolute minimum u can "try" to reach.

In reality u will hardly even reach the 1.7s and its more close to 1.9-2.0s, so dps will be lower.

Also the 1.7s are already with max. haste + medium armor + 2x weighted trait, this is as fast as u can get!

PS: As noted using clipped DW heavy attack's do not result in "partially" damage attacks atm, this is a little bug only possible with DW.

what if the dev's made our "shade" a mirrior image of ourself? would be the exact damage out-put we need and would be 2 of us. i would be VERY happy with that

sorc pets are rarely used, they dont scale well. It is much easier to fill the slot with something useful than a pet.

Andy22 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

How are you getting this info about the time required to have a partial charge attack+ability?

I use a modified version of battlelog, that i can setup to show me the time in ms between any events. What i can measure in this case is the time in ms between two light attacks, while doing the combo, which is the time a single rotation needs. I do this for 30s and average the ms numbers, since the timing varies slightly do to lag. I than try to confirm this timing by doing the same using a 60s window and simply count the number of rotations i got in and divide it by 60.
I repeat the test 2 times, the first is manually and the second tries to cut the timing using a macro tool. There is a particular interesting event called "ACTION_RESULT_QUEUED", that only happens if you try to use a skill/attack, while a other attack is still on internal cooldown. This event is a indicator that my macro timing is still to low, so i raise the timing until i do not see this event anymore. The result of this process is the lowest timing i can use in a macro.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Of course there are numbers posted about the internet detailing light attack speeds and such, but how do you know for sure that it's IMPOSSIBLE to clip a DW heavy attack with flying blade below 1.7 seconds?

see above, i'm also sorry it sounded like its "impossible". What i mean is that i was not able to confirm the 1.3/1.5s values via my test method's. I do not claim my numbers are 100% correct under all circumstances, but they are actually tested numbers and as you can see above i do go through a lengthy and complex test process.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

I tried testing it (on the pts since I don't have DW on my main), but without a heavy attack casting bar that shows me the exact duration, my stop watching skills will add a level of inaccuracy to this report. However, with that in mind, it seemed like I was able to pull the combo in less than a second and a half fairly easily.

How did you determine this: "less than a second and a half" ? Keep in mind the animation's you see do not 100% match what happens internally with damage applied. So how exactly did you measure your 1.5s and how long was your test interval?

The only "proper" way to test this manually with a stopwatch, is by doing this combo over a longer period of time like 60s and count (via battlelog/CLS) how many full attack rotations you got in and than divide it by 60.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Unless you have some concrete method of timing that I seem to be missing, and this isn't all based off of theoretical numbers and speculation, I think that a 1.3 second rotation for DW heavy attack+flying blade is possible.

I use the best method's that are available to me and going by my tests 1.3s was not possible, so if you can get 1.3 or 1.5s i'm interested in your "rotation" and the way you determined the timing.


PS: If you have more accurate methods of timing rotations, i'm also happy to hear those. There is also the possibility that my EU server timings are different from US timings, but since i could confirm the public "known" 1.3s for staff light attacks from EU, i "concluded" there should be no real difference for other timings as well.

First off, your coming off a little condescending. No need for that here, simply trying to get some info. If I had a more accurate method of testing for you I wouldn't have posted about my by-eye stop watching, I'm sure you should have figured that out, nor would I be asking you for your results.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Unless you have some concrete method of timing that I seem to be missing, and this isn't all based off of theoretical numbers and speculation, I think that a 1.3 second rotation for DW heavy attack+flying blade is possible.

You did see I said, 'unless', right? As in, this paragraph was an inquiry to your methods, not a stab at them, as I clearly had no better way to test. I wasn't assuming what came after the word 'unless', I was asking. Sorry if that didn't come out right.

It was not my intention come off hostile, just about everything I bring up in this thread and in mmo forums in general is in the pursuit of knowledge, either receiving or attempting to share, so I hope that wasn't misunderstood. I'd like to keep this conversation civil.

Back to the discussion at hand, I'm prepared to accept that 1.3 seconds for a full rotation isn't doable if the timing is that off. I brought it up, as I've mentioned, not out of my own imagination, but from a thread talking about dual wields potential after 1.2.3 because of incapacitate, and in this discussion the value of 1.3 seconds was given for heavy attack clipping with flying blade.

But what about anywhere between 1.3 seconds and 1.7 seconds? If you wanted to come off as more certain you should have told me a heavy attack with dual wield under 1.7 seconds isn't a heavy attack, even with haste on. That would've answered most of my questions.

So I'll set up this precedent again since my overall question still doesn't seem to be answered. Unless you can tell me with the most certainty your testing provides that going under 1.7 seconds to charge a heavy attack with DW will result in a light attack every time, unless you can tell me that, I'm still going to believe under 1.7 seconds might be possible for the rotation discussed.

On a side note: We sorta stopped talking about 2h's capability with wrecking blow/light attacks. While it seems it certainly wont provide the dps that dual wielding can, I think it could be semi-close behind, and therefore worth it if choosing 2h for the playstyle and not the potential. (Although spamming a cast time ability would suck for movement in trials, I'd still like to know I have the option)

@Andy22, if your 2h skill tree is leveled high enough for uppercut, would you mind replicating your testing for this combination? If not, can you at least point me in the direction of where you got your modified combat log so I can do it myself, and that way I wouldn't have to keep asking you about your testing

Andy22 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

First off, your coming off a little condescending.

Sorry this was not my intention, i'm still human so i also have bad days. I guess maybe the bold "IMPOSSIBLE" ticked me off a little.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Unless you can tell me with the most certainty your testing provides that going under 1.7 seconds to charge a heavy attack with DW will result in a light attack every time, unless you can tell me that, I'm still going to believe under 1.7 seconds might be possible for the rotation discussed.

Don't believe anything in those forums! No, not even from my "smart-ass", test all yourself and do not rely on "believing" things only because someone sound "about right" or "smart".

So i will send you (via PM) my Battlelog version + instruction's so you can test and time this all yourself, i'm a little tired on testing DW/2h.

The problem with 2h uppercut was the same as Flying Blade, i could not get a higher DPS rotation going, compared to Flurry.

Maybe you can find a way to get a faster rotation, if you do please post your results here.

good luck

Fair enough on not believing anything in the forums, lol, I appreciate you sending me your Battlelog version, that'll solve the problem at hand here right quick, and stop me from nagging others for test results ^.^

As to 2h and uppercuts viability, as it is I doubt that 2h uppercut will do more or even the same damage as the flurry rotation you've outlined, that was a logical conclusion from the beginning, 2h hasn't been all too promising throughout the game so far.

It's simply that I'm the type of guy who's willing to skimp slightly on dps if it means I get to play with the weapontype I enjoy more, the only stipulation is the slightly part :P

If the uppercut combo ends up being 200-300 less dps than the flurry combo with dual wield I certainly won't use it. But if it's say anywhere from 50-100 dps less total, that might be a value I would be okay with losing in return for my preferential choice of weapon.

But anyway, as you're sending me a PM on where to get your Battlelog version, I'll just figure that out myself as mentioned.

Cheers, thanks again.