Are Pickup Groups Viable in 2025?

Tomarkhos

I spent the vast majority of my time in ESO using the group finder. I have just recently come back from a long break and have noticed the community seems to have changed. Previously when I would tank a Veteran Dungeon we would take it seriously and all do our perspective rolls, with the tank pulling and taking the lead unless its talked about first. Now though whenever I pug a veteran group its like Tanking for a lowbie normal dungeon. It just feels like its a mad rush for the DPS to get out as far as possible from the group as quickly as they can. I use a Templar Tormentor build for fast and efficient pulls that are safe. That all goes out the window though when I have to run into the group spread out over the map and the mobs all scattered beyond an easy pull range. I really feel like no one wants a tank in Vet groups any longer, they would just run and gun as quick as possible individually pulling.

I just had an experience where we were doing Vet Selenes Web and the group constantly ran ahead making the search for sacks and chests difficult to do because I was constantly the only 1 looking and also the last to arrive to all the encounters. At the very end I stopped, and in chat asked to activate SCROLL at final boss, and DPS runs heads and starts the fight without the scroll and now we have to wipe so we can reset. So now from my perspective the whole dungeon ran long cause they are not working together on pulls, and now I don't get a chance for a No Death speed run because they forgot the scroll.

My response was to leave the group after the wipe on final boss. I was frustrated and just left because I wasn't having fun any longer. I can always requeue and do it again later, and try for a no death again. However after I dropped I got 2 different tells from people complaining asking why I left. I don't know how to explain to these people why I left. I mean I could explain it but I don't honestly feel that many of them would understand. Its easier to just block them and move on.

Was trying to come back to this game a mistake? It was toxic before I left but now it seems to have just gotten worse since I returned. I mean I could at least escape a lot of the random BS by doing Vet Dungeons but now that doesn't seem to be the case any longer. Is the casual Random group no longer viable on PC NA? Is it guild only groups? And when did Vet Dungeons start getting treated like Normal Dungeons with DPS pulling and running ahead? I cant even leave a *** group without expecting someone in the group sending me messages afterward asking why I left. It just feels like its not worth the hassle to tank anymore. I don't know, just really second guessing coming back and its not due to the game, its due to the players, and I just don't see ZOS having a way to fix self centered, rude people that don't want to participate in teamwork. Any thoughts? Is the only answer to really only do guild groups?

Finally I just want to also add that I hear and read people in ESO complain about the lack of Tanks. I feel there is a number of reasons for the shortage, not all can be fixed. However I can tell you that there is one thing players can do to help make sure they are paired with a tank. That is don't message and harass them after they leave, because then they will block you, in which case you will now have 1 less Veteran tank that can que with you moving forward. Do that Once a day over a month and maybe that could explain why some people cant get a tank to que with them for the longest time.

RebornV3x

If your trying for the no death your gonna have to run with a guild. I had a similar problem to yours but with Vet Elden Hollow 1 last year its was the last base game dungeon I didn't have the no death for and randoms were being really bad and toxic. The dungeon and group finders are really there just to get your daily completed or if you want to try and speed run the dungeon apparently its a shame but that's just the it is.

Sarannah

You did not make a mistake coming back to the game, the game is a lot of fun!

ESO is currently having an issue with how the mmo side works, and quite a few players abuse this issue by speedrunning/fake role'ing. Still, random groups can do all the achievements for the dungeons. Personally I have done all achievements with random groups, it just won't work with every group.

Really hoping this dungeon situation gets fixed soon, for both the players and the game itself.

PS: Always play a tank myself.

Belegnole

Pug groups are rather chaotic and random. About half of the time I get a group that play as a group. Though I have to admit that my squishy dps often ends up being the tank in normals. Either way I have my goals and just work at it until I get there.

spartaxoxo

Yes. But you'll need to be a bit independent than before. You'll also need to accept that some groups prefer speed runs, and in those you probably won't get no death.

Orbital78

Maybe, if you get lucky it will be half or more filled with an organized group just looking for a couple fills. Vet pugs can be very hit or miss, some you might need a hour or two to devote to clearing in some cases. In other cases you might get a speed run or clear twice in the time others take to try to clear once.

tomofhyrule

Tomarkhos wrote: »

I use a Templar Tormentor build for fast and efficient pulls that are safe.

Be aware that Tormentor changed and no longer taunts in an AoE. They specifically changed it to remove the possibility of any AoE taunts.

As a Templar, the big change with taunting is that the spear charge does have a taunt innately now, but again it's only single target. Templars did also get one morph of shards as a CC as well. Also, using a pull (Silver Leash or the Scribed Leashing Soul) will full taunt instead of 'soft taunt,' with the caveat that if a thing is already hard taunted by something else it will not override that taunt.

CalamityCat

Random groups can be a bit hit and miss, especially when some players are only doing a certain dungeon in vet to get the monster set. Mostly I find players do try to play their roles in vet, and I've only twice quit a group. So I think you've been unlucky as most random groups I find are reasonable to really good fun.

I think there are a lot of players who are used to easy normal mode dungeons and get bad habits about positioning and ignoring mechanics. Especially if they're used to doing a high amount of damage and don't actually see the mechanics properly in normal runs. If you get a group who are just in that vet dungeon to get the monster set pieces, they genuinely might not realise they're causing trouble for you/themselves. I know I was a bit like that until I made a healer, then I became a lot more aware of what the tank and healer are trying to do and where I need to stand. But you also get jerks in vet mode, so there's that possibility too

I've had a few runs where players were clearly inexperienced and didn't know mechs, but usually I find people will listen and make the effort. Where they don't and the group is wiping without making progress, I tend to quit unless I'm able to heal or DPS enough to compensate for them. Or vote kick the worst and get a reliable guild mate to help out heh.

Nestor

Queueing for the Random Dungeon, it is going to be a Speed Fest, nothing you can do about it.

Queuing for a Specific or Curated List can dump you in with the Random Dungeon players. See above.

Talk about what you want before the dugeon starts, you may slow down the pace and can run the dungeon the way you want.

If you have specific goals for a Dungeon, you are best grouping with a Guild, and sometimes you can find like minded individuals in Zone.

ivaylo.krumoveb17_ESO

Tomarkhos wrote: »

... However I can tell you that there is one thing players can do to help make sure they are paired with a tank. That is don't message and harass them after they leave, because then they will block you, in which case you will now have 1 less Veteran tank that can que with you moving forward. Do that Once a day over a month and maybe that could explain why some people cant get a tank to que with them for the longest time.

Unfortunately this is not the case in ESO. Ignoring a player only blocks the chat but you can still be grouped with that person. My ignore list is full of toxic players but i still get grouped with some of them occasionally.

DenverRalphy

Unfortunately ths is a side effect of the current trend of players finding it accecptable to speed-run (and often fake role) their way through Normal dungeons pugs. Which of course resulted in learned behaviour that has carried over into Vet content. Sadly, there are now many players in which that type of play is all they really know.

Soarora

I run random vet as tank often on PC/NA and do not have these problems. Granted, I build to be fast and run ahead so that only people who are extremely fast would be able to pull ahead of me anyways.

JaxontheUnfortunate

I tank but as a stamina build I will not Sprint and burn all my stamina just to save 5 minutes, also tank by the rule you pull it, you tank it. I've even switched to a DPS build if it's clear the group doesn't really want a tank.

Tomarkhos

Thank you for all the responses. What I have gathered is that, YES it is toxic and its not just me, and 2 there is still a problem with lack of empathy and just generally being nice in ESO. The resolution it seems is to just stop playing Randoms any more and to just play with Guild only members. That makes sense and I feel I agree, but what bothers me with these answers is that instead of finding a way to make things better in ESO it just feel we collectively have just given up and are choosing to just let people act in a self destructive way, centering everything solely on their wants and not caring about the other 3 people in the group. I mean ZOS makes it really easy to understand roles, but if no one wants to play the roles while also not communicating that with anyone, how are we supposed to know what that self centered person wants?

In the end the solution I feel is harmful to the community. All I can think is if I was just starting this game today and didn't know anyone already playing id dislike the community. So this bothers me because so many other MMOs I have played have gone through this same issue and in the end it just ends up with the player base shrinking because no one new ever wants to stay in a game that is just not fun. Again all the answers I got were pretty much to either ignore the problem or ignore a part of the player base that causes the problem. I will take the advice, but it does have me concerned now with the longevity of ESO.

Orbital78

Tomarkhos wrote: »

In the end the solution I feel is harmful to the community. All I can think is if I was just starting this game today and didn't know anyone already playing id dislike the community. So this bothers me because so many other MMOs I have played have gone through this same issue and in the end it just ends up with the player base shrinking because no one new ever wants to stay in a game that is just not fun. Again all the answers I got were pretty much to either ignore the problem or ignore a part of the player base that causes the problem. I will take the advice, but it does have me concerned now with the longevity of ESO.

Communication can go a long way with most community members. Though if most north american's see: 我是新人，正在做任务 or 私は初心者でクエストをやっています, they probably aren't going to know what you're on about. Don't go into the group finder with too many expectations, there is a decent chance it will go sideways. There is also a decent chance you will get a trifecta, ok well not decent but it does happen if the stars align.

Part of the issue is that normals require next to no skill for most experienced players, I may die once or twice but I typically have no issues tanking any normal dungeon and even some trials on a dps or healer. On a tank, I would be mind numbingly bored most likely. Then you think ok that was easy and jump in to vet and its night and day difference in DLC's.

Soarora

I mean, the quality of pugging depends on your expectations and playstyle. And you only mentioned one run, there are bad runs sometimes and even then it’s usually just 1 person. Tanks that don’t sprint, don’t have celerity, don’t have expedition (templar can sustain rapids), etc. fall behind the group, and if a tank falls too behind too often then most DPS are probably going to start pulling. By making myself faster, I have avoided what bothers me in PuG dungeons except for the rather rare person who just takes off (I wait for most of the group at the start and if I’m too far ahead). Tanks that don’t want to deal with lower DPS than what guildmates can provide will also not have a good PuG experience. Nor will tanks looking for certain achievements. Maybe that DPS pulled the last boss because they didn’t think the group could handle HM, or maybe they’re too used to normal dungeons. Empathy is important yes but doesn’t only apply to your group members, and you ragequit, leaving behind 2 people who didn’t pull the boss early. You have to be prepared for peoples first runs on vet, people not knowing mechanics, people having low DPS, kicking people and finding replacements or re-queueing, etc. or you will not have the most enjoyable PuG experience. It’s not for everybody, so if you have expectations you’re better off running in guilds.

JaxontheUnfortunate

Yeah for pushing for specific achievements I don't bother with pugs for those and usually form a group of guildies, much more enjoyable experience.

valenwood_vegan

Random means random... the game matches totally random people together with no communication, no accounting of their ages, cultural differences, reasons for running the dungeon, playstyle, skill level, level of kindness and empathy for others, patience, language spoken, etc.

Sometimes you get a great group and even make some friends; frequently the group is adequate for the purpose; sometimes the group can't complete the content or a person is selfish or toxic. I'm not sure how the community would be expected to "police" this. We can enforce certain standards in our guilds; among friends; in groups that we lead... we can set a good example for others. But the community can't somehow control the behavior of every random stranger in random groups. As many others have said, if a specific outcome is desired, it's much better to try other methods of forming a group, such as via guilds and friends, or even the group finder.

OsUfi

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Unfortunately ths is a side effect of the current trend of players finding it accecptable to speed-run (and often fake role) their way through Normal dungeons pugs. Which of course resulted in learned behaviour that has carried over into Vet content. Sadly, there are now many players in which that type of play is all they really know.

It's that mid-tier PvE toxicity that puts me off entering any PUG nowadays. Normal or vet. "It's quicker," their corpse cries out from the floor, or "we must have missed one," as we stand waiting at a door. Speed running with mates, and faking with your guild is one thing, but holding up everyone in random queues is just selfish.

Slot taunts, take 2-3 group heals, and slow down smidge. Then it's quicker.

Rishikesa108

RebornV3x wrote: »

If your trying for the no death your gonna have to run with a guild. I had a similar problem to yours but with Vet Elden Hollow 1 last year its was the last base game dungeon I didn't have the no death for and randoms were being really bad and toxic. The dungeon and group finders are really there just to get your daily completed or if you want to try and speed run the dungeon apparently its a shame but that's just the it is.

@Tomarkhos if you need people to fill a vet dungeon group, call up me and my husband. I can run as healer or as dd, my husband as dd only. We do not rush, we loot chests and sacks, we do not pull instead of tank. We play on PC EU, so if you play on the same platform, feel free to call us in game (same name as on forum). I understand your bad experience, unfortunately it's just normal for it to happen like this...

ssewallb14_ESO

Ultimately it's an issue with power creep. You didn't have people running ahead before because they couldn't, or at least the bar for doing so was higher. Now you don't really need a tank for base game vet even with a fairly inexperienced group.

The speedrunner can force the pacing of the dungeon, but not the other way around, as such the group finder will tend towards speed running.

If you want to actually tank in a random, I'd just do the DLC pledge. You'll occasionally get some of the same, especially in older DLCs, but it's much less common.

spartaxoxo

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

The speedrunner can force the pacing of the dungeon, but not the other way around, as such the group finder will tend towards speed running.

They can. People would rather complain on the forums than actually do so in-game though. The passive acceptance of speed running is part of what enabled things. If people voted to kick speedrunners in the same percentages that they complain about them here, the behavior would be as rare as other things that get you kicked like going afk.

Ultimately, speed runners see that in the vast majority of cases, people are giving them permission to speed run in their groups.

BejaProphet

You looking around to loot sacks is bad dungeon etiquette.

Vet non dlc dungeons are the kiddy pool. Good players won’t put their serious faces on for that.

Current dungeon etiquette is to have some speed buffs and move immediately and purposefully to the next fight.

But, yes. Even at 37% speed boost and some sprinting when I tank there will be some jerks who want everybody’s attention on them as they out pace you. But if you are not waisting their time with sacks, base movement speed, pauses after fights, and poor crowd control. 98% of dlc groups will show you respect and about 70% of non dlc vet will also.

DenverRalphy

BejaProphet wrote: »

You looking around to loot sacks is bad dungeon etiquette.
.

To speed runners perhaps.

There's a significantly large portion of the playerbase that finds it entirely acceptable. Those sacks, chests, containers, etc.. were put in the dungeon for a reason.

Current dungeon etiquette is to have some speed buffs and move immediately and purposefully to the next fight.

No. No it is not.

Tomarkhos

Just a heads up, I was not really looking for tips on how to tank, and I feel that those giving that kind of advice perhaps do not understand this conversation, and that's okay. I just want to make sure its clear that I'm not saying its a skill issue, or that I am having problems with the dungeons. I also understand that I can just get a guild group. I feel I even mentioned this in my original post. That was not the intent of this post. "Spartaxoxo" gets it though.

What I am trying to express is that this game is going the wrong way not because of ZOS, but because of the players. The players are toxic, not the game. The players are rude to each other, not ZOS. Now don't get me wrong, I have no love for ZOS and feel they could do better. The point I feel I was trying to make is this : Is there anything we can do as players to improve this? The answer seems to be no. The answer from players tends to be apathy and detachment, with the solution for the problem being to ignore the bad behavior and pretend it doesn't exist, and to just cope with this by staying in ones own personal bubble.

That being said, how sustainable is this?

ssewallb14_ESO

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

The speedrunner can force the pacing of the dungeon, but not the other way around, as such the group finder will tend towards speed running.

They can. People would rather complain on the forums than actually do so in-game though. The passive acceptance of speed running is part of what enabled things. If people voted to kick speedrunners in the same percentages that they complain about them here, the behavior would be as rare as other things that get you kicked like going afk.

Ultimately, speed runners see that in the vast majority of cases, people are giving them permission to speed run in their groups.

There's a negative feedback loop problem here. The system enabling speed runners results in the queue being heavily skewed towards people who actively want a speed run, while those who don't tend to queue in lower numbers. Complaining in group chat or attempting vote-kicks will not change this.

Orbital78

This exists for a reason, specific playstyles can be set up ahead of time. Speed, lollygagging, or dark dank dungeon erp. If more and more people used it, hey it might be even more viable for ALL playstyles.

spartaxoxo

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's a negative feedback loop problem here. The system enabling speed runners results in the queue being heavily skewed towards people who actively want a speed run, while those who don't tend to queue in lower numbers. Complaining in group chat or attempting vote-kicks will not change this.

It absolutely would change things but it would require effort that people simply aren't interested in taking and have never been interested in taking. Back when this first started, people kept refusing to kick these guys. I know because I tried. I even saw people I had grouped with once complaining on here after they refused to kick a speedrunner.

Orbital78

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's a negative feedback loop problem here. The system enabling speed runners results in the queue being heavily skewed towards people who actively want a speed run, while those who don't tend to queue in lower numbers. Complaining in group chat or attempting vote-kicks will not change this.

It absolutely would change things but it would require effort that people simply aren't interested in taking and have never been interested in taking. Back when this first started, people kept refusing to kick these guys. I know because I tried. I even saw people I had grouped with once complaining on here after they refused to kick a speedrunner.

Another issue I have noticed is that people do blind vote kicks without any group chat what so ever. I don't vote people out 90% of the time unless they are spewing toxicity etc. Are they trying to kick this new player out of a normal, are they mad that someone isn't doing the role to their liking, do they have a grudge against this person, why are we trying to kick this person. I vote no 90% of the time or just ignore the vote. I'm more likely to vote myself out by just /gl if things are that bad.

DenverRalphy

Orbital78 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

There's a negative feedback loop problem here. The system enabling speed runners results in the queue being heavily skewed towards people who actively want a speed run, while those who don't tend to queue in lower numbers. Complaining in group chat or attempting vote-kicks will not change this.

It absolutely would change things but it would require effort that people simply aren't interested in taking and have never been interested in taking. Back when this first started, people kept refusing to kick these guys. I know because I tried. I even saw people I had grouped with once complaining on here after they refused to kick a speedrunner.

Another issue I have noticed is that people do blind vote kicks without any group chat what so ever. I don't vote people out 90% of the time unless they are spewing toxicity etc. Are they trying to kick this new player out of a normal, are they mad that someone isn't doing the role to their liking, do they have a grudge against this person, why are we trying to kick this person. I vote no 90% of the time or just ignore the vote. I'm more likely to vote myself out by just /gl if things are that bad.

Or you could just vote yes/no based solely on whether you think the nominated kick deserves it. Regardless whether it was discussed. I've voted yes on vote kicks without any discussion in chat, simply because it's been inherently obvious why the player was nominated for kick. I've also voted no when it's not so obvious. Though admittedly the 'yes' votes have been more frequent lately as the current trend has been heating up.

benzenexz

depending on your own capability and expectation of others, as always

I do vet dlc dungeons with PuG everyday. Say following are my expectation of the other group members:

• no fake roles
• having knowledge of mechanics or willing to learn and act
• no pullers rushing ahead pulling everything without dealing with them properly
• no boss pullers
• no abusing or attacking others

Many “BAD” actions of the players can be prevented or stopped through talk. In the case of failing of communication, there are always the option to vote them out, (or standby finding some amusement of them dying of their own doing).

In total, most of the time(90%), I don't have to bother using vote kick. Given this rate, for me, I would say it's very viable.

If you want to get specific achievment as a MUST for a PUG group, you'd better list yourself in GF or make your own group.