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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/653550/

State of Templar: "never to be changed again"

Dekrypted
Dekrypted
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The templar class as a whole has been on something of an interesting journey from High Isle to now and we are now approaching another year and another update.

At the top, I'd like to get some things out of the way. The obligatory tags of @ZOS_Kevin & @ZOS_GinaBruno . The stressing that the thread remain as civil as possible. I am guilty of my passion for my class to get a fair shake getting the best of me and I can only ask that the comments that are intended to derail, distract, and not add anything of value to the conversation please not be made.

Pleasantries aside, we are now in Week 1 of the PTS cycle. Only thing different now is that this is going to be the 10th year of ESO. Temper your expectations though because we're starting out the 1st week of the PTS with literally no templar changes at all. Based on the previous PTS cycles, we can expect another round of more noticeable adjustments to be made in Week 3. Sometimes you see stuff in Week 4, but normally it's Week 1 and Week 3.

Link to PTS patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651251/pts-patch-notes-v9-3-0
I can see the focus was not on classes and much more on other areas. Totally get that. What I don't understand is being told this almost a year ago and the opposite happening.

Quoting a thread of mine: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631632/templars-feedback-is-treated-the-way-templar-is-ignored/p1 dating back to April 17th, 2023
ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hey @Dekrypted, again totally understand the frustration. We have noted Templar concerns to the team and they are aware of them. As we noted before, while no changes are coming in U37. What we should have also noted is that it doesn't mean there isn't room for future changes or improvement. We understand that doesn't help in the immediate, but we just want to highlight that the door is not closed here. We will continue to discuss and share player sentiment with the combat team, including the resources and points you sent. I have them bookmarked as reference points every time we having a class conversation.
ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
The point being made here is that these changes are being made based in player feedback, but player feedback is not the only thing dictating how changes get implemented. And that also does not mean that these are locked forever, never to be changed again. It is a process. Again, this is being said with the full understanding that you do not have to agree. But we wanted to highlight the point here that PTS is very helpful to us to get your feedback. It is being considered at all times and it is dictating end results. Sometimes the end result just doesn't look like what players expected.

*We also passed this feedback on DK to the team.

Fast forward roughly a year. Looks like we're locked in. A ton of a templars damage has been loaded into the execute. More often than ever before I've seen templars just drop class abilities because what's the point?

We have plenty of hots which in an average fight will show that you have high heals per second, but a Warden can out heal a templar, have just as much if not more damage, better group utility, and healing due to max hp scaling on abilities like Polar Wind.

Looking at PvE with a quick glance, comparing templars to every other class, there's just little to no incentive to use it. For the Sun Shield lovers, the visual doesn't even work anymore. I personally have ran a build that has 9.6k spell damage, 22-26k pen including major and minor breach, major Berserk, concussed, minor force, 30k resists back bar, 2.6k stamina recovery.

I'm told that this build isn't "true stats" when I can provide CMX data to show these are the stats I can run, while ALSO being told it's a bad build from those same players who don't even play the class. Of course they're on a DK with all the bells and whistles. No wonder my build is just bad. It's because it's on a Templar. If they run my build and stats to the letter, I'm erased. Period. It's so frustrating to feel like I have to fight for my life when a DK can just parse and things melt because the dmg is just so much higher. It sucks that if I run even 36 to 37k hp on a Warden with polar, I can fight like 6 people and win. I'm not even trying to mention that a Nightblade can run easily 38k hp and still land 12k merciless procs after their incap and that's not even going into the higher damage specs. On my templar? I got an execute. Just gotta hope someone else can get them low enough or pray they still haven't figured out how to counter a meteor combo. If it fails, I'll just be a heal bot until I die or they just leave because I can't do anything else.

Build diversity is shot for this class. From the quoted messages, I was told that it wasn't going to remain this way forever. We're locked in while nightblades got an essay of changes. Necros need love too, but overall, this game needs alot more than what I'm seeing.

I'm on this game for all of 5 minutes and that depends on the daily log in rewards as of now. I have over 23,000 hours and tell no one to try this game. I can't in good conscience get someone to go through being told one thing and ignored on multiple levels like I have. The customer experience gets worse the longer you play the game.

Atleast templars are a base game class I guess.

Below is a list of links more specific to templars. Mostly feedback, but also just some overall conversational topics across these 3 categories. I will note that I did review all categories for atleast 5 pages of threads. I'm 99.9% sure there's plenty more that can be added to the list, but these among other threads, speaking with Active players and players who''ve left the game is what informed my opinions on the main body of this post.
From the last 5 pages of the Public Test Server category
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651265/did-you-forget-templar-change
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/639316/sun-shield-rework-when
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/647262/templar-burst-ability/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644549/zos-can-you-improve-the-templar-a-bit/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643445/templar-necro-have-been-in-a-very-bad-spot-for-5-6-updates-now/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643417/templar-lack-of-feedback/p1
(Honorable mention of my own threads)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626582/templar-and-its-lack-of-love/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631632/templars-feedback-is-treated-the-way-templar-is-ignored/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638068/here-we-are-again-talking-about-templar/p1

From last 5 pages of the Combat & Character Mechanics category
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650962/is-templar-bad-or-sorc-too-easy
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650251/radiant-oppression-radiant-oppression-radiant-oppression/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646398/solar-barrage-in-pvp

Last 5 pages from the PvP Combat & Skills category
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/645165/which-to-build-warden-or-templar-pvp-cyrodill-group-healer
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/642526/vampires-bane-in-pvp
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/642541/templar-sunsphere-and-jabs
Edited by Dekrypted on January 29, 2024 11:27PM
PC NA
March 2014 - December 2023
No longer active

Templar Main
  • Keystroke
    Keystroke
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    I feel the same way in PVE on my templar tank. We have no control skills in the class like others. I have to try SO HARD on my templar tank just to cover the basics.
    1. No pull so have to use stamina and silver leash to pull in mobs.
    2. No immobilize so just don't have one (have to use psyjic or fighters guild skill morphs for immobilize but they are crazy expensive - lol at point I even considered making a bow tank just for its immobilize morph).
    3. Our AOE interrupt is a gap closer where we have to drop block.
    4. The shield morph that scales on HP does no damage.
    5. No ult like magma shell to survive tough fights / content, and no resources back on ult.
    6. Ground HoT that only ticks every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second like other ground skills.
    7. Shards shares synergy cooldown with orb.
    8. Even my templar healing loadout people "don't perfer" in trials anymore, they would rather just have warden and arcanist.
    9. The class passive overlapping with DK (hybridization) also means I can't contribute to my group in a unique way.
    10. I made another thread about the tormentor set changes so won't rehash them here, but this primarily affects templar tanks who had very few tools already for tanking.
  • caeliusstarbreaker
    caeliusstarbreaker
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    I salute you for even having the energy to write this.
    @Dekrypted
    Edited by caeliusstarbreaker on January 30, 2024 12:43AM
    Rhage Lionpride DC Stamina Templar
    K-Hole
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    Great write up.
    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin please read this thread!
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Jman100582
    Jman100582
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    Honestly, I am in agreement with pretty much everything you’ve said

    I’ve made my own fair share of plar threads, and I’ve been active at some point in all the other ones others have made. And if you go back and read, it is almost jarring that the same issues, suggestions, and critiques are almost all still relevant today. It’s sad to look at a comment on a thread that was made over a year ago and have to say “damn, that’s still true” and it truly feels like plar in particular has no vision at this point in time. While it’s true that for a time it was THE and I mean THE strongest class in pvp, it took zos all of 2 patches to take that same class and put it at almost the very bottom (just above cro). I’m one of the only Templar mains on PlayStation, and whenever people whisper me about my build after a bg or ask about something plar related my default answer is “don’t play it, just play a dk” and I truly wish I could say something else. I have over 200 days played on my Templar, it’s 5 stars and everything. But there’s just no incentive to pvp on this dead class
  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    I must say it was pretty funny to see templar completly missing in the patch notes. It's like devs either think the class is in perfect condition atm and nothing needs changing or they are completly unable to come up with any reasonable changes. Both scenarios don't seem promising.
  • ForumBully
    ForumBully
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    Keep spamming radiant destruction and pray we don't alter Templar further.
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    Jabs might just get changed to 2 ticks and the animation is actually just a shovel

    On a serious note: please give us something by week 3
    Edited by gariondavey on January 30, 2024 1:24AM
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • James-Wayne
    James-Wayne
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    I wasnt going to say anything because it all seems pointless, no one even listens on here anyway but just wanted to thank the rest of you for saying something and keeping the light on, I salute you!

    Been playing Templar since day 1 2014 and that wont ever change but happy to get back into housing some more this year with my Templar.
    PERTH, AUSTRALIA | PC | NA | @Aussie-Elders

    TENTH ANNIVERSARY - Thanks for sticking with us for 10 years.
    James-Wayne you earned this badge 9:56AM on 4th of February 2024.
    529 people have also earned this badge.
  • Udrath
    Udrath
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    Can you share that 9.6k spell damage Templar build. I’ve run something similar and would like to test it out!

    I’m a stamplar main and from my experience one of the biggest thing stopping high damage builds like this from working is undeath. POL can crit decent but when it does crit against a vampire at the time you need it too, it’s pretty much nothing. All the burst heals and shields have made it even worse.

    We can easily shred the first 50% hp of a vampire, but then damage just falls flat afterwards. That 30% damage reduction scaling makes it extremely hard to execute and finish fights, but I’m also not interested in using skills magplar have always used like beam. So that’s my fault but it just feels clunky to me. I still play the way I learned with vigor/cleanse/rally as my heals and do decent, but the burst damage does not match the stats it seems like. Stacking weapon damage on Dragonknight like Templar stacks spell damage gives much better results, like night and day.

    Stamplar has always felt like an honourable fighter in the past but now “Templar” hybrid seems like a gimmick burst build that stalls till they can javelin meteor beam, and I refuse to play that way cause the old playstyle is much more fun to me, even though it’s not the best. I agree with everything you posted.
  • Billium813
    Billium813
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    I main Stamplar DPS, PvP/PvE, & Templar Tank. The only content I seldom touch is Trials, it's just not my kinda content. Just my two cents:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646546/obligatory-templar-ideas
    Billium813 wrote: »
    Templar is like a poorly done cover of a popular song from 10 years ago. The beat is all wrong, the style is mixed, and the spirit of the original is totally lost.

    Templar is DPS heavy in design and grossly weighted in a handful of over-buffed Skills. Meanwhile, every other Skill/Morph Templar has is like a ghost town; no one uses them because they're not worth it or theyve been nuked into oblivion. And the Passives, they should be the beat, the rhythm that pulls it all together! But instead, they're clunky, or pointless, or redundant.

    Templar is in a terrible state and I'm totally confused how ZOS decided to do nothing. NOT ONE THING. Templar has become a hodgepodge of nerfs & buffs stitched together that just don't flow and synergize anymore. It's so sad.
  • ArchangelIsraphel
    ArchangelIsraphel
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    I've been playing this game for 5 years, 4 of those has been spent maining a Templar in both PVE and PVP. I swap between stamplar and magplar as I like both. Everything, to the letter, you say is absolutely true about the class as it stands now.

    Yes, for those of us who know the class well, who understand how it works and how to build for it, we can get some decent damage in, and we can survive a lot. But we are constantly outperformed by other classes in so many forms of content because, well, we're Templars.

    It doesn't matter how good you are at the class. You can be extremely skilled, and people will tell you "Hey, you're really good, why don't you roll a DK or a Warden instead?"

    Because we love playing Templar, that's why :/ Seen these kinds of things said to one too many Templars.

    Its an exhausting cycle. I've relegated myself to pursuing solo play, and theory crafting for it to see how far I can push Templar while soloing group content. For PVP, I just run solo most of the time and enjoy myself because I'm playing the class I want to play, rather than being another DK clone.

    As you have mentioned, its also really frustrating that so much of Templar's damage has been thrown into the execute phase. It's great for some things, but you have to push it hard to get decent damage on the front end. I really wish the damage had better distribution, and that some of the class skills would be brought back into a useful state again. I hate that, often times, class identity has to be sacrificed for damage through the use of other skill lines.
    Legends never die
    They're written down in eternity
    But you'll never see the price it costs
    The scars collected all their lives
    When everything's lost, they pick up their hearts and avenge defeat
    Before it all starts, they suffer through harm just to touch a dream
    Oh, pick yourself up, 'cause
    Legends never die
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    I find it wild to be told that "because templar is good in duels, it has to be weak everywhere else" or "templar dod not get nerfed, they just shifted the playstyle".

    Like what?? Did they not read the same patch notes? I know they don't play the class. There's no communication outside of the same little dev comments and the fact that after 10 years (this year), it's not sufficient. It just feels like there's a lack of drive and passion for the game. I know they've said they're not in maintenance mode, but templars wernt mentioned at all in the notes despite all the feedback.

    Actions really speak louder than words with these teams.
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Vahndamme
    Vahndamme
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    At least templar was fun back when it was fully loaded on jabs. Now it's fully loaded on beam and it's frankly boring. You're lower than mediocre for 70% of the fight and then you slay the beast super quick. In PvP you need to killsteal because no way you get targets low enough to even execute them. (Or you grind new people, that's a possibility but no fun)

    The animation of their staple spammable is so bad I see so many people running shards as a spammable nowadays. At least it is still somewhat visual pleasing.. Seriously, the class spells aren't that interesting anymore. If you want to continue to use jabs you first gotta sit through the eye sore, then you gotta boost it with everything else like Solar Barrage and Velothi and most likely Deadly Strikes.. Only then it's somewhat okay but honestly majority doesn't get past the first issue.

    The overall numbers say Templar isn't in such a bad spot, they parse good, they perform good in actual content.. but honestly, it's all the last 30% of the fight. Meanwhile you gotta sit through the pain of using another skill or see them throw around a shovel from the Nighthollow style page.

    I understood OG jabs templar needed a tweak but now it's just so meh to play. Even with the incoming nerfs I think I'll continue playing Arcanist because it does all that a Templar does but easier and better. Where Templar was that visual god and had decent performance overall it's now a beam bot at the end of the fight and majority of the animations are unexisting because you don't use templar skills (underpowered / not unique) or you do use them but hate yourself for it.

    I still stand with what I said and that is that Templar deserves a way better animation for jabs. Arcanists got great animations.. Templar gets their main one recycled with a vampire themed shovel made yellow.

    Nowadays (as Templar main) I only log the game for daily endeavours and some writs.. once in a full moon I'll join a trial and PvP is entirely done for me. I would play but the class I was playing the game for is forgotten. Sure, people can say it's not absolute trash can and I agree but play the class and experience it. You'll pull out all your hair if you notice your execute has gone bad/not happening because that's what you been waiting entire encounter for.
  • SandandStars
    SandandStars
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    Embrace the beam. Embrace the button. Beam, beam, beam I tell you.

    NOW don’t you wanna play Nightblade? Huh, huh, come on don’t yuh?
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Embrace the beam. Embrace the button. Beam, beam, beam I tell you.

    NOW don’t you wanna play Nightblade? Huh, huh, come on don’t yuh?

    Id rather not play the game at all, but this thread has some great ideas. Since Templar is archived in the Infinite Archive, we might as well pool our support here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651463/nightblade-changes-good-but-more-is-needed
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
    Suna_Ye_Sunnabe
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    One of Templar's main issues has always been that it has too much power in one skill and crutches on it. Jabs at first, then power of the light/purifying light, now just radiant oppression. Why anyone ever thought it was a good idea to change a class to just be good once at execute range is beyond me...

    For the love of all that is good, just balance and spread the power of their skills in a meaningful way, and please REVERT the SHOVEL "jab" animation! Nothing matters to me in this game until then.
    Edited by Suna_Ye_Sunnabe on January 31, 2024 5:19AM
    Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna
  • silentxthreat
    silentxthreat
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    i wish they would buff templars or anything but nb
  • SIow
    SIow
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    Healer class
  • Major_Toughness
    Major_Toughness
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    i wish they would buff templars or anything but nb

    Good news they nerfed NB this patch.

    Also, I don't know the answer for Templars right now.
    Beam needs to be needed, however without beaming and "third partying" their offensive window is terrible. They have to play defensive to survive - which they can do well - but their burst ability requires them to go offensive for more than 2 seconds.

    But if you buff PotL to where it was in 2022 then when they do get the chance to go offensive, they end up with like 20k crits and as we know with NB bow proc, people hate seeing a big number on their damage recap, regardless of anything else.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    i wish they would buff templars or anything but nb

    Good news they nerfed NB this patch.

    Also, I don't know the answer for Templars right now.
    Beam needs to be needed, however without beaming and "third partying" their offensive window is terrible. They have to play defensive to survive - which they can do well - but their burst ability requires them to go offensive for more than 2 seconds.

    But if you buff PotL to where it was in 2022 then when they do get the chance to go offensive, they end up with like 20k crits and as we know with NB bow proc, people hate seeing a big number on their damage recap, regardless of anything else.

    It doesn't need to be 20k. All they had to do was reduce the damage bringing it down from potentially 20k to like 12-15k. So if you put in the work, you reap the reward. It's a 6 second window. Even if it only did 10k max, it'd be fine. Part of the problem is that it's inconsistent on top of the damage kit of the class being centered around executing and waiting for someone else to get them low.

    Might as well buff nightblade and dragonknight
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • ZDunlain
    ZDunlain
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    Thank you for your time on this topic @Dekrypted, I always read your posts about templars and I share with you 100% of your view. It seems that you are a vet player that understand the class perfectly.

    Hope ZOS give us a bone in next weeks, it will be exhausting playing the same way the following months with only 1/3 of class abilities meanwhile 2/3 of the abilities are bad designed and needs a complete rework.
    PvP player
  • JustLovely
    JustLovely
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    SIow wrote: »
    Healer class

    At present, yes. I still weep a little for the lost jabs animation.
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    I find it wild to be told that "because templar is good in duels, it has to be weak everywhere else" or "templar dod not get nerfed, they just shifted the playstyle".

    Like what?? Did they not read the same patch notes? I know they don't play the class. There's no communication outside of the same little dev comments and the fact that after 10 years (this year), it's not sufficient. It just feels like there's a lack of drive and passion for the game. I know they've said they're not in maintenance mode, but templars wernt mentioned at all in the notes despite all the feedback.

    Actions really speak louder than words with these teams.

    the devs said that because templar is good at duels, it has to be terrible everywhere else?
    That is actually terrible MMO design. You want to be rewarded for seeking out others to offset your weaknesses but you also don't want to be the worst at dungeons/trials/bgs/cyro. If dueling is their mastery, then they need the kit to create 1v1 opportunities in pvp in order to turn the class focus as a pvp class (but this intent was supposed to be sorcs/nightblades so why the shift?)

    But having templar a master of executes isn't a terrible class identity. But it needs it's tanking or healer top tier if they are gonna go that route because you wont secure kills or live long enough in group combat to be in the window to land a beam. It is just a shame because that wasn't what templar was known for back on launch either (they were the channel/cast time class with the only healer kit). NB was actually the class known for having the execute back then, so it's wild to see a shift in game design to see a class that aligns more with tanky knights and it have the worst support healing/tankiness in the game lol.

    They need a complete class fantasy audit (chess balance) and then just find a pyramid ranking of spells/gear to make the game more colorful, sans player complaints (contrary to our believe, we don't actually know what we are talking about with regards to true game balance). Someone has to lose in a game built around win conditions so you do need a top dog and underdog for a variety of aspects of the game; not just class design. So if templars are masters of executes, then there should be a couple of fill in weapons/gear that helps them offset their weaknesses (that other classes dont have access to) that are also less uptime to help maintain that chess balance.

    But sadly can't have that either when the game needs everyone to be the tri-roles, and everyone has access to the same gearing/skill lines.
    Edited by Minno on January 31, 2024 3:47PM
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Minno wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    I find it wild to be told that "because templar is good in duels, it has to be weak everywhere else" or "templar dod not get nerfed, they just shifted the playstyle".

    Like what?? Did they not read the same patch notes? I know they don't play the class. There's no communication outside of the same little dev comments and the fact that after 10 years (this year), it's not sufficient. It just feels like there's a lack of drive and passion for the game. I know they've said they're not in maintenance mode, but templars wernt mentioned at all in the notes despite all the feedback.

    Actions really speak louder than words with these teams.

    the devs said that because templar is good at duels, it has to be terrible everywhere else?
    That is actually terrible MMO design. You want to be rewarded for seeking out others to offset your weaknesses but you also don't want to be the worst at dungeons/trials/bgs/cyro. If dueling is their mastery, then they need the kit to create 1v1 opportunities in pvp in order to turn the class focus as a pvp class (but this intent was supposed to be sorcs/nightblades so why the shift?)

    But having templar a master of executes isn't a terrible class identity. But it needs it's tanking or healer top tier if they are gonna go that route because you wont secure kills or live long enough in group combat to be in the window to land a beam. It is just a shame because that wasn't what templar was known for back on launch either (they were the channel/cast time class with the only healer kit). NB was actually the class known for having the execute back then, so it's wild to see a shift in game design to see a class that aligns more with tanky knights and it have the worst support healing/tankiness in the game lol.

    They need a complete class fantasy audit (chess balance) and then just find a pyramid ranking of spells/gear to make the game more colorful, sans player complaints (contrary to our believe, we don't actually know what we are talking about with regards to true game balance). Someone has to lose in a game built around win conditions so you do need a top dog and underdog for a variety of aspects of the game; not just class design. So if templars are masters of executes, then there should be a couple of fill in weapons/gear that helps them offset their weaknesses (that other classes dont have access to) that are also less uptime to help maintain that chess balance.

    But sadly can't have that either when the game needs everyone to be the tri-roles, and everyone has access to the same gearing/skill lines.

    I've been told that by other pvpers who don't want the class adjusted.
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Never to be used again. That's correct. If the devs neglect not just mine by really anyone's feedback for Templar then it can sit. I accidentally deleted my main Templar, Support couldn't (or wouldn't) restore it but you know what... I don't miss it that much anyways.

    Templar jabs still looks childish and just awful. I hate the way it works too. Its sucks and is kind of insulting to the lore for a Templar to use a vampire staff instead of an aetheric spear proper... this opinion will never change and ignoring the problem won't fix it.
    Edited by Vulkunne on January 31, 2024 4:03PM
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • kojou
    kojou
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I think that buffing the status affects for "Magic Damage" will go a long way to help Templar DPS considering they don't have class skills that give good access to the good ones like Burning and Poison (Vampire Bane being the only skill). Personally I would rather they did away with "Magic Damage" and make the skills that look like fire burn, and the ones that look like they stab do bleed damage, etc, but this is better than nothing.

    Another thing that I think would help Templar a lot from a DPS perspective is using the same model as the Arcanist where some skills cost your primary resource and others cost your secondary. That way it will be easier to sustain the rotation. Right now Stamina Templar is a "one trick pony" and Magicka Templar is just difficult to sustain.

    I used to really love doing DPS on my Templar, but I feel like the Templar's skill set has become obsolete in the current meta.
    Playing since beta...
  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    I find it wild to be told that "because templar is good in duels, it has to be weak everywhere else" or "templar dod not get nerfed, they just shifted the playstyle".

    Like what?? Did they not read the same patch notes? I know they don't play the class. There's no communication outside of the same little dev comments and the fact that after 10 years (this year), it's not sufficient. It just feels like there's a lack of drive and passion for the game. I know they've said they're not in maintenance mode, but templars wernt mentioned at all in the notes despite all the feedback.

    Actions really speak louder than words with these teams.

    the devs said that because templar is good at duels, it has to be terrible everywhere else?
    That is actually terrible MMO design. You want to be rewarded for seeking out others to offset your weaknesses but you also don't want to be the worst at dungeons/trials/bgs/cyro. If dueling is their mastery, then they need the kit to create 1v1 opportunities in pvp in order to turn the class focus as a pvp class (but this intent was supposed to be sorcs/nightblades so why the shift?)

    But having templar a master of executes isn't a terrible class identity. But it needs it's tanking or healer top tier if they are gonna go that route because you wont secure kills or live long enough in group combat to be in the window to land a beam. It is just a shame because that wasn't what templar was known for back on launch either (they were the channel/cast time class with the only healer kit). NB was actually the class known for having the execute back then, so it's wild to see a shift in game design to see a class that aligns more with tanky knights and it have the worst support healing/tankiness in the game lol.

    They need a complete class fantasy audit (chess balance) and then just find a pyramid ranking of spells/gear to make the game more colorful, sans player complaints (contrary to our believe, we don't actually know what we are talking about with regards to true game balance). Someone has to lose in a game built around win conditions so you do need a top dog and underdog for a variety of aspects of the game; not just class design. So if templars are masters of executes, then there should be a couple of fill in weapons/gear that helps them offset their weaknesses (that other classes dont have access to) that are also less uptime to help maintain that chess balance.

    But sadly can't have that either when the game needs everyone to be the tri-roles, and everyone has access to the same gearing/skill lines.

    I've been told that by other pvpers who don't want the class adjusted.

    That's why as a dev you don't listen to player feedback but fall back on your design intent. Players will keep playing if the fantasy hits alot of marks.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    I find it wild to be told that "because templar is good in duels, it has to be weak everywhere else" or "templar dod not get nerfed, they just shifted the playstyle".

    Like what?? Did they not read the same patch notes? I know they don't play the class. There's no communication outside of the same little dev comments and the fact that after 10 years (this year), it's not sufficient. It just feels like there's a lack of drive and passion for the game. I know they've said they're not in maintenance mode, but templars wernt mentioned at all in the notes despite all the feedback.

    Actions really speak louder than words with these teams.

    the devs said that because templar is good at duels, it has to be terrible everywhere else?
    That is actually terrible MMO design. You want to be rewarded for seeking out others to offset your weaknesses but you also don't want to be the worst at dungeons/trials/bgs/cyro. If dueling is their mastery, then they need the kit to create 1v1 opportunities in pvp in order to turn the class focus as a pvp class (but this intent was supposed to be sorcs/nightblades so why the shift?)

    But having templar a master of executes isn't a terrible class identity. But it needs it's tanking or healer top tier if they are gonna go that route because you wont secure kills or live long enough in group combat to be in the window to land a beam. It is just a shame because that wasn't what templar was known for back on launch either (they were the channel/cast time class with the only healer kit). NB was actually the class known for having the execute back then, so it's wild to see a shift in game design to see a class that aligns more with tanky knights and it have the worst support healing/tankiness in the game lol.

    They need a complete class fantasy audit (chess balance) and then just find a pyramid ranking of spells/gear to make the game more colorful, sans player complaints (contrary to our believe, we don't actually know what we are talking about with regards to true game balance). Someone has to lose in a game built around win conditions so you do need a top dog and underdog for a variety of aspects of the game; not just class design. So if templars are masters of executes, then there should be a couple of fill in weapons/gear that helps them offset their weaknesses (that other classes dont have access to) that are also less uptime to help maintain that chess balance.

    But sadly can't have that either when the game needs everyone to be the tri-roles, and everyone has access to the same gearing/skill lines.

    I've been told that by other pvpers who don't want the class adjusted.

    That's why as a dev you don't listen to player feedback but fall back on your design intent. Players will keep playing if the fantasy hits alot of marks.

    How many Templar mains are even left in thr game based on changes made from U35 to now?

    @ZOS_Kevin said that player feedback is considered, but isn't the sole factor. That just doesn't seem to be correct based on the updates this game has had.

    What you're saying is more accurate to the actions made by the team, that being that they're not hearing anything we're saying. The design intent clearly has changed, but the feedback on said changes is just blatantly ignored. Seems like it's not productive start to finish. Hard to even say if the old class rep system could've helped in this instance
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Nilandia
    Nilandia
    ✭✭✭
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    How many Templar mains are even left in thr game based on changes made from U35 to now?

    @ZOS_Kevin said that player feedback is considered, but isn't the sole factor. That just doesn't seem to be correct based on the updates this game has had.

    What you're saying is more accurate to the actions made by the team, that being that they're not hearing anything we're saying. The design intent clearly has changed, but the feedback on said changes is just blatantly ignored. Seems like it's not productive start to finish. Hard to even say if the old class rep system could've helped in this instance

    U35 was indeed rather painful on many fronts. Templar mains are not very common, but those few who remain can be quite potent. Templar can be easy to pick up, but it's quite difficult to master.

    While templar is solid as a PVE DPS (I don't have experience with support or PVP so I won't comment there), it could still use some adjustments.

    I'd love to see more group utility beyond a class passive that is relatively useless if you have a DK, which pretty much every group has. I was intrigued by the new stamina support set, only to find on testing that it only procs on healing damage, not on overheals. With the buff/debuff only lasting 3 seconds, the fight would need to have constant incoming damage that's not covered by the healers to be worth running. Which it's not.

    I'd also love to see some way of making our rotation less complex. While the class has a reputation for the rotation being "jabs x5, potl, repeat," it's far more complicated than almost any other I've tried. Having the dot timers align better would go a long way to make the class easier to play in content.

    There are more things I'd like to see, but those two are perennial pain points.
  • splitsand
    splitsand
    ✭✭✭
    Templar is too strong, it has an aoe skill that you have to aim that almost does as much damage as nightblades spammable which is an instant cast. Not only that, but it has purge which is op in this meta because if you have 30 stacks of Jeralls or relequen, etc you can purge those 30 stacks of just by hitting purge 6 times.

    Also, this class synergizes way too much with the current meta. While other classes get abilities like cloak, streak, hp based shields, crystal slab, etc... templar can survive just by sitting in a small area. Other classes do not have that luxury as they have heals that let them move. Trust me when I say that everyone who plays PvP wishes that their heals were also tied to sitting in a circle.

    My suggestion is to nerf templar even further. Why even give jabs 10s of major brutality when other classes get 30s on major buffs. I say eliminate all major buffs on the class, reduce jabs damage by 20%, nerf beam and then we can begin to talk.
    Edited by splitsand on January 31, 2024 7:44PM
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