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Can we get a change to the PVP meta Please! Everyone running vat staff, masters dual-wield Proc Meta

Noerra
Noerra
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This post is meant to be constructive feedback, hoping that this request for a change brings about a better state of the game.
I am writing this post because I want to enjoy ESO as it is my favorite game; but I my favorite part of the game (pvp) has felt like it's been in a unbalanced state for months - so much so I haven't been playing and I feel my money has been wasted on a year long sub because of a broken meta that everyone is running.
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When this meta showed up it really ruined the enjoyment of the game.

This meta is hard to counter because you can't block, roll-dodge, etc... to mitigate the damage. This is by far the worst meta I've experienced in the years I've been playing.

I think it is pretty evident that it is worse than the multi-proc meta that we had before where you could stack bursts... because you could actually plan for the burst and counter it with a well timed roll dodge, block, or shield of some sort.

It's so much so that I have stopped playing since it has shown up because it is just that unfun to be beat by someone running the same broken proc build over and overagin... and by players with worse skill than you that wouldn't otherwise win in a fair battle.

I've logged in a few times here and there to see if the meta has changed, or have browsed youtube content creators to see if there has been any changes... people still making videos suggesting Vateshran ice staff, Master's dual-wield, dragon's appetite or some other proc set.... again and again.... same build for EVERY CLASS.

The pvp side of the game makes it feel like the class you choose is pretty pointless since your playstyle is going to revolve more around the same dot-proc build everyone is running.

Personally, I feel like most of the money I spent on a year long sub was wasted. I wish I could have saved some money and unsubbed for the duration of this meta.

Again I am making this post in favor of ESO, the devs, and for the aim of contributing to the success of the game and the enjoyment of the community that plays it.

I am not trying to rally together a crowd to complain or send hate at the devs... please do not be toxic if you decide to comment. Let's keep this civil and constructive.

tl;dr: PVP sucks because of a broken dot meta that has gone unchanged for months. I feel like I wasted money on this game because it completely ruins the pvp side of the game for me and I am choosing not to play while this meta is currently around.
  • Sleep724
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    Bring back all the offensive metas I say. Why does there always have to be just one meta? 😅
  • Casul
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    Imagine a set that prevented procs from firing with say a 40-60% uptime. I think that would be interesting.
    PvP needs more love.
  • shimm
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    My biggest problem with the current meta is that everyone does more damage than me, has better penetration, is harder to kill, has more health, better sustain and is (a lot) faster than me. Other than that, i do okay.
  • React
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    Agreed. It's insane that zenimax took a strong stance against procs back in the viper/tremor/widowmaker/selenes/veli days, but they're now releasing multiple damage dealing procs every patch, and that they've allowed the mdw/vat meta to remain for over a year now.

    You're totally right about the nature of the modern proc sets being far worse to deal with than the old ones, because nearly all the modern procs (excluding scavenging maw) that are used are dot/pressure fire & forget things. Mdw, vat ice, maarselok, zaan, way of fire, serpent's venom, etc.

    There is no real skill based counterplay to these types of sets. They get applied to you, and if you aren't using a purge which is unrealistic for most builds, you just have to deal with taking x damage for x seconds. When a few of these things get stacked on you, they'll completely negate your healing/warding and put you in a position where no amount of skillful gameplay will allow you to survive. It's incredibly frustrating and makes PVP less enjoyable.

    Furthermore, having access to sets that deal damage for you allows people to build much tankier while still dealing adequate, or even high damage. They are exacerbating the tank meta that we've been experiencing for nearly two years now.

    I really wish they'd take a patch to really gather feedback and balance PVP. There haven't been any meaningful changes to the meta in years, and pretty much everybody I know is tired of dealing with it.

    Edit: Just wanted to add that Status effects are just as bad, or even worse than the proc sets we're talking about in this post. You'll often take more damage than any of these proc sets just from stacks of burning/poisoned/hemo & the application of status from ele susc casts. Check your CMX sometime after an outnumbered death; it's absurd how much free damage these status are providing now. At the very least, making status effects only be able to stack once on players would basically solve this issue.
    Edited by React on January 3, 2024 1:30AM
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  • Arcanasx
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    Casul wrote: »
    Imagine a set that prevented procs from firing with say a 40-60% uptime. I think that would be interesting.

    Imagine a set that prevented your light attacks, abilities, and break free from firing say about 50% of the time. I think that would be interesting...wait nvm that's what bad performance lag feels like.
  • Arcanasx
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    React wrote: »
    Agreed. It's insane that zenimax took a strong stance against procs back in the viper/tremor/widowmaker/selenes/veli days, but they're now releasing multiple damage dealing procs every patch, and that they've allowed the mdw/vat meta to remain for over a year now.

    You're totally right about the nature of the modern proc sets being far worse to deal with than the old ones, because nearly all the modern procs (excluding scavenging maw) that are used are dot/pressure fire & forget things. Mdw, vat ice, maarselok, zaan, way of fire, serpent's venom, etc.

    There is no real skill based counterplay to these types of sets. They get applied to you, and if you aren't using a purge which is unrealistic for most builds, you just have to deal with taking x damage for x seconds. When a few of these things get stacked on you, they'll completely negate your healing/warding and put you in a position where no amount of skillful gameplay will allow you to survive. It's incredibly frustrating and makes PVP less enjoyable.

    Furthermore, having access to sets that deal damage for you allows people to build much tankier while still dealing adequate, or even high damage. They are exacerbating the tank meta that we've been experiencing for nearly two years now.

    I really wish they'd take a patch to really gather feedback and balance PVP. There haven't been any meaningful changes to the meta in years, and pretty much everybody I know is tired of dealing with it.

    Edit: Just wanted to add that Status effects are just as bad, or even worse than the proc sets we're talking about in this post. You'll often take more damage than any of these proc sets just from stacks of burning/poisoned/hemo & the application of status from ele susc casts. Check your CMX sometime after an outnumbered death; it's absurd how much free damage these status are providing now. At the very least, making status effects only be able to stack once on players would basically solve this issue.

    Focusing mainly on what I've bolded; if that's true, then the reverse is also true. Where having some investment into the available survivability sets and tools can easily carry your survivability for you, to the point where you become a lot more comfortable and can get away with investing into easier damage for the rest of your build. There's two sides of the equation here and it goes in both directions.

    That's what's been happening for almost three years. We've had survivability inflation since CP 2.0 despite the HPS nerfs for Vigor and RR. Health recovery also got nerfed...and these changes benefited undeathpires and pressure builds as well.

    And maybe your experience was different than mine, but the Malacath DoT meta felt more oppressive when it came to overwhelming DoT pressure. The DoT sets at the time could easily achieve nearly 1k DPS each, and those would often stack and be applied from a distance. TTK was generally lower too, despite all the "free damage that would have allowed you to invest in survivability elsewhere," because those same DoT set spamming players were also easier to kill as well. Maybe the exception for easier survival might have been if you had access to purge. Which would have been a lot more impactful as the DoT sets used back then had cooldowns, instead of the constantly refreshing status effect spam happening these days, which you've also highlighted as a problem.

    Basically I don't think dedicated damage sets are responsible for tank metas. Instead what we have are inflated stats and overloaded defensive tools that exist that do enable it, which then also incentivizes players to use the dedicated damage sets to combat the tank meta. Otherwise, the Malacath DoT meta should have been even more of a tank meta than what we have now and that simply wasn't the case if you exclude old WW's with Alessia's and Crimson.

    I think limiting how many status effects could be stacked would be good if they'd also limit how many HoTs could be stacked as well.

    Edit: And I'll also mention that your full damage Arcanist example's that you've posted in another thread highlights exactly what I'm trying to say. That the level of defense that's available in this game is a lot more problematic than the damage sets IMO.
    Edited by Arcanasx on January 3, 2024 3:18AM
  • AzraelKrieg
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    Don't want proc sets? Play the standard No-CP campaign. Problem solved.
    Gold Dragons Guildmaster PC-NACR2000+
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  • Turtle_Bot
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    Don't want proc sets? Play the standard No-CP campaign. Problem solved.

    ...

    It's not that people don't want any proc sets, people are just sick of the SAME procs sets being the only viable ones. When was the last time we saw sets like:
    - Storm-Cursed
    - Deadlands Assassin
    - Affliction
    - Winterborn
    - Icy Conjurer
    - Frozen Watcher
    - Auroran's Thunder
    - Overwhelming Surge
    - Ashen Grip
    - Phoenix
    - Ne'rineth (however its spelled)
    - Eternal Hunt
    - Leeching Plate
    - Night Terror
    - Widowmaker
    Being used for anything other than a theme/meme/fun/RP build. Even old meta sets like Velidreth, Ice Heart, Caluurion's, Mad Tinkerer, etc barely see any use now as they simply don't keep up with the current BiS sets.

    What most people complaining about the current proc meta want to see, is diversity in the sets that perform well.

    E.G. instead of wondering what class we were fighting because the recap is full of MDW/Bloodcraze/maarselok/vate/ele sus, it would be cool to see, oh, we're fighting X class because we see class abilities being used with damage sets or alongside many different proc sets like:
    - shock/physical damage sets (likely was a sorc)
    - frost/bleed damage sets (likely was a warden)
    - disease/magic sets (likely was a NB)
    - fire/poison sets (likely was a DK)
    - etc.

    Having more sets (and tbh, the classes as well) be within that 5-10% range of the top of the meta would help a lot for not only diversity, but helping players join in and enjoy PvP more, since they know they can take an optimized version of their fun/theme build and not just get constantly curb-stomped by the 1-2 meta set-ups that everyone else is using.

    Imagine if we could see lightning sorcs running around that were using sorc abilities instead of spamming MDW + rele/WoF, or if we could see plars running around with bright/sun themed magic instead of just turtling up in their bubble + MDW, hoping not to die and that someone eventually lets their guard down long enough for javelin into beam combo to do something, or even necro that raises an army of skeletons or inflicts diseases on everyone to bring them low instead of turtling up with MDW + WoF and hoping that their blast bones decided to be sober that day.
  • RoxyPhoenix
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    the problem we are having now is that everything else has been nerfed into oblivion. The few sets that everyone uses now are all we have left to crack the tank meta. Unfortunately, these sets contribute to enforcing the tank meta even more simply by the way they work. It's like trying to be on a healthy diet but all you got to eat is junk food, eating less of that junk food doesn't get you healthier, you just get hungry more often.
  • gronoxvx
    gronoxvx
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    Tbh i prefer they change away from the tank meta.
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    It's not that people don't want any proc sets, people are just sick of the SAME procs sets being the only viable ones. When was the last time we saw sets like:
    - Storm-Cursed
    - Deadlands Assassin
    - Affliction
    - Winterborn
    - Icy Conjurer
    - Frozen Watcher
    - Auroran's Thunder
    - Overwhelming Surge
    - Ashen Grip
    - Phoenix
    - Ne'rineth (however its spelled)
    - Eternal Hunt
    - Leeching Plate
    - Night Terror
    - Widowmaker
    Being used for anything other than a theme/meme/fun/RP build. Even old meta sets like Velidreth, Ice Heart, Caluurion's, Mad Tinkerer, etc barely see any use now as they simply don't keep up with the current BiS sets.

    What most people complaining about the current proc meta want to see, is diversity in the sets that perform well.

    Most of these sets are fixed area procs with clear telegraphs, which players (as opposed to NPCs) will simply walk out of.

    Sticky DOTs are more popular, and for good reason. Especially fast damage, versus 10-15 second stickys with long cooldowns (such as Icy Conjurer and Venomous Smite) which players will simply cleanse. Plaguebreak used to discourage purging, but they nerfed that into irrelevancy. People will just heal through most DOTs.... and the anti-heal set they introduced (Snake In The Stars) is so weak and has such a crazy cooldown that literally nobody runs it.

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Concrete
    Concrete
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Don't want proc sets? Play the standard No-CP campaign. Problem solved.

    ...

    It's not that people don't want any proc sets, people are just sick of the SAME procs sets being the only viable ones. When was the last time we saw sets like:
    - Storm-Cursed
    - Deadlands Assassin
    - Affliction
    - Winterborn
    - Icy Conjurer
    - Frozen Watcher
    - Auroran's Thunder
    - Overwhelming Surge
    - Ashen Grip
    - Phoenix
    - Ne'rineth (however its spelled)
    - Eternal Hunt
    - Leeching Plate
    - Night Terror
    - Widowmaker
    Being used for anything other than a theme/meme/fun/RP build..

    Not been in cyro for a while? Virtually every NB ganker now runs Winterborn.

  • Elyu
    Elyu
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    Will link to an earlier post expressing similar opinions to help get the ball rolling on this topic:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8009087
    @Dekrypted
  • Elvenheart
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    From a non-PvPer’s point of view, so admittedly I know absolutely nothing about this, but wouldn’t everyone wearing exactly the same gear make PvP MORE fun because then it wouldn’t be gear differences that win the day but would boil down to the skill of the player using the set, and the class/skills they choose to equip on their bars? I mean, it seems like if there were all sorts of sets and set combinations that were equally good for PvP and if some of the sets were harder to obtain than others, the argument would be that some people wouldn’t have access to the “best” sets because of cost or how hard they are to get. So wouldn’t taking sets completely out of the equation by everyone wearing the same set be the best option?
  • geonsocal
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    be careful with "all or nothing" thinking, seeing things in terms of extremes...find the middle ground, it is there...
    PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place
  • Stamicka
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    Yea this should definitely be addressed. Procs have been a problem ever since One Tamriel, Zenimax has never quite dealt with them properly. First they removed the ability of proc sets to crit, but they still overperformed in BGs. Then they nerfed individual procs like viper.

    For whatever reason they kept adding new procs, they made procs scale with stats, and made procs crit again? Then of course there was the malacath meta when procs were once again overperforming. I'm on the extreme end of this issue, procs just shouldn't be in PvP. They've never been properly balanced and I doubt they can with the way stat scaling works and the fact that PvP is an environment where burst and pressure is important.

    Procs are however balanced in PvE which I suspect is why ZOS never removes them completely. Another reason to separate PvP and PvE, especially in terms of sets.
  • SCP343
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    cant blame them defensive proc sets are too strong and only way to kill people is rely on procs and go single target xd
  • Brakkish
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    There IS a positive side to it though: If everyone is wearing the same sets, then it's easier to identify true player skill when it happens.




    And by the way:
    That's 11 shots for you.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/649131/if-meta-was-a-drinking-game#latest
    CP2332 +3100 hrs spent in BGs. US PS5 - Nine PVP Tanks - toons named variations of "Combat Medic" I like long walks on the beach. What's PVE? https://www.youtube.com/brakkish
  • Noerra
    Noerra
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    Elvenheart wrote: »
    From a non-PvPer’s point of view, so admittedly I know absolutely nothing about this, but wouldn’t everyone wearing exactly the same gear make PvP MORE fun because then it wouldn’t be gear differences that win the day but would boil down to the skill of the player using the set, and the class/skills they choose to equip on their bars? I mean, it seems like if there were all sorts of sets and set combinations that were equally good for PvP and if some of the sets were harder to obtain than others, the argument would be that some people wouldn’t have access to the “best” sets because of cost or how hard they are to get. So wouldn’t taking sets completely out of the equation by everyone wearing the same set be the best option?

    I see where you are going with this, and I like your thinking of equalization, but it doesn't work that way unfortunately because of the nature of proc-sets, and more specifically... these proc-sets.
  • Noerra
    Noerra
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCJ2nNi6amw

    Here is a video that explains the current meta quite well
  • Urzigurumash
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    SCP343 wrote: »
    cant blame them defensive proc sets are too strong and only way to kill people is rely on procs and go single target xd

    Definitely an important consideration to me.

    Probably mentioned elsewhere in this thread: does anybody run Rending Slashes without its proc set?

    Also interesting that during 2 solid years of DK Domination Venomous Claw - DK's strongest single target DoT - only rarely appeared in my recaps - on the other hand the Burning Status was in nearly every single one.

    Limiting Status Effects to one instance definitely makes sense thematically. But before we look at new ideas let's revisit old: How's that HoT-DoT ratio these days? Should it still be reverted to what it was at Elsweyr?
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
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