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Achievements should not be 100% RNG based

SilverBride
SilverBride
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The word achievement is defined as "a thing done successfully, typically by effort, courage, or skill". It is not defined as something acquired by pure luck.

There are a lot of achievements in the Infinite Archive, and all are obtainable with hard work and perseverance... except for Howling with Rage, Molten Measures and Keeping it Cool. These are 100% dependent on RNG and there is nothing the player can do to improve their chances of obtaining these.

I don't know how this could be fixed but there should be some way the player can improve their chances.
PCNA
  • Erickson9610
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    Technically, there is some player input and strategy for getting the Avatar Verses associated with those achievements: You would always pick the most relevant Avatar Visions (including the ones you don't want to use if the one you want isn't available, because then you'll remove those unwanted ones from the Vision pool and thus the one you want will be slightly more likely), and then always pick the relevant Verses and use the consumable Mystery Verse in the correct category (Offensive for Werewolf Behemoth, Defensive for Ice Avatar, Utility for Iron Atronach) every Cycle. Also, it's important to take every Portal to the Unknown and win, because that will grant you another Verse choice.

    The grind sucks, though. I've gotten to Arc 5 without finishing a single Vision set with the 3 Vision and Verse choices available, while a friend of mine on the same run with only 2 Vision and Verse choices was able to get the Ice Avatar transformation and use it once.
    Edited by Erickson9610 on December 30, 2023 3:06AM
  • SilverBride
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    Does a consumable mystery Verse give a Vision because it's 3 Visions that are needed to be able to get the Verse.
    PCNA
  • spartaxoxo
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    No, the consumables don't grant visions. But once you have all 3 visions it significantly ups your odds of getting the verse since you have extra verses.

    I will say though they should do something to make this a bit better. Like maybe up the odds of getting the other visions if you already took a transformation vision.
  • Erickson9610
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    Does a consumable mystery Verse give a Vision because it's 3 Visions that are needed to be able to get the Verse.

    No, but the Mystery Verse has a chance to grant you the Avatar Verse once it has been unlocked. Getting the Verse after finding all three of the Visions is a necessary part of unlocking the relevant achievement.
  • Braffin
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    Agreed.

    A possible solution: After picking a vision from one of the 3 sets the game could prevent visions from the other 2 transformations until the first is completed. Still some rng, but at least the odds are somewhat better.

    On a sidenote: There are also a lot of rng-based achievements outside IA. I don't ask to change them but would prefer less of them in future content.
    Edited by Braffin on December 30, 2023 3:26AM
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • SilverBride
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    It's just beyond frustrating to have zero control over getting all 3 Visions. There is no skill involved or anything to make this a true achievement.
    Edited by SilverBride on December 30, 2023 3:32AM
    PCNA
  • Erickson9610
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    Braffin wrote: »
    A possible solution: After picking a vision from one of the 3 sets the game could prevent visions from the other 2 transformations until the first is completed. Still some rng, but at least the odds are somewhat better.

    One issue with this solution is that players who don't want to complete certain Vision sets (such as the Ferocious set) but want particular Visions within that set (such as Ferocious Fortification and Ferocious Strikes) will have to prioritize that set last, after they have completed the other sets that they want. It would become impossible to have multiple Vision sets partially completed, which may not be ideal for players who aren't grabbing Avatar Visions for the Avatar Verses.
  • Braffin
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    Braffin wrote: »
    A possible solution: After picking a vision from one of the 3 sets the game could prevent visions from the other 2 transformations until the first is completed. Still some rng, but at least the odds are somewhat better.

    One issue with this solution is that players who don't want to complete certain Vision sets (such as the Ferocious set) but want particular Visions within that set (such as Ferocious Fortification and Ferocious Strikes) will have to prioritize that set last, after they have completed the other sets that they want. It would become impossible to have multiple Vision sets partially completed, which may not be ideal for players who aren't grabbing Avatar Visions for the Avatar Verses.

    Yeah, good argument. Didn't think about that.

    Edit: Another idea is to add transformation visions as curated drops from marauders as they are the only bosses in there not granting visions at all. And killing them off definitely takes enough skill to justify a curated vision as additional reward.
    Edited by Braffin on December 30, 2023 4:16AM
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • SilverBride
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    I always wondered why the Marauders didn't drop anything considering what a challenge they are. I'd love to see them drop these transformation Visions and for them to be curated.

    I was informed by customer service that all the transformation Visions have an equal chance of appearing but that hasn't been the case for me. I've received Ferocious and Scorching multiple times but rarely see Crystalline and have yet to complete the achievement even after multiple hours of play every day since the Infinite Archive was introduced. It is rare for me to find even 1 Crystalline Vision in a run, let alone 3.

    These achievements should be something the player can put effort into and complete, not just left to chance.
    Edited by SilverBride on December 30, 2023 6:38AM
    PCNA
  • spartaxoxo
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    I find Crystalline visions often but usually only 2 in a run. I have gotten 3 but no Ice Avatar verse. :\
  • Treeshka
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    I had multiple long runs where i had access to two Avatar visions and even third but intentionally did not take the third vision to not pollute my offensive Verse pool with Bestial Transformation. I had one run where i got all three within Arc four.

    So it is random yes but this randomness effect can be diminished if you go deep into Archive. Still there is a chance of not getting any Avatar Vision though and i do not think it hurts to run again.
  • MidniteOwl1913
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    I got the one for the flame atronoch but after I found out the transformation only lasts for one stage I lost interest in the others. It's a lot of effort, and you have to do it every time and every time it only will last one stage. Nope, if it happens great, but I won't pick visions based on it.

    PS5/NA
  • Ilumia
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    The chance of completing this achievement increses if you're good and can get further in the archive. But I do agree that it is very rng based and annoying to get them.

    I also had a sucky experience where I finally got the werewolf behemoth in a boss round, and when I started the battle, my skillbar was suddenly empty ( I'd just been in a random portal after getting the verse ). That cost me a thread and my patience.
  • tsaescishoeshiner
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    I hope you have better luck. In my experience, the way to get these is to go to Arc 6ish with the unlocks for 3 Verse choices and 3 Vision choices.

    The way to do that is to get 30k armor, 35k health, and some good passive damage like DoTs and status effects.

    Doing it within the first 2-4 Arcs is definitely RNG. By Arc 6, you're practically guaranteed to get them, especially if you prioritize them over better Visions. I don't think I've ever gotten that high and not gotten 3 Visions for at least one set.

    Once you have all 3, you can boost your chances with the Mystery Verses (I know one's Utility, not sure if they all are).

    The transformation verses are so powerful that I think they're almost always worth taking, unless you really need another particular Vision for your build.
    PC-NA
    in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner
  • code65536
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    there is nothing the player can do to improve their chances of obtaining these

    No, you can improve your chances. It's still RNG, but there are things that you can do to help it along.
    • Most obviously, deeper runs means much higher likelihoods of getting a complete set. Deep runs are very difficult solo, but pretty easy with a tank buddy (companions are worthless), so find a friend, put on any old tank setup, and shoot for a deeper run of arc 6 or later.
    • Get the upgrades for 3x vision choices and 3x verse choices.
    • Once you've completed a vision set, you can use mystery verses for extra chances of getting the corresponding transformation verse.
      • Offensive: werewolf
      • Defensive: ice
      • Utility: iron
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  • SilverBride
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    I hope you have better luck. In my experience, the way to get these is to go to Arc 6ish with the unlocks for 3 Verse choices and 3 Vision choices.

    The way to do that is to get 30k armor, 35k health, and some good passive damage like DoTs and status effects.

    Doing it within the first 2-4 Arcs is definitely RNG. By Arc 6, you're practically guaranteed to get them, especially if you prioritize them over better Visions. I don't think I've ever gotten that high and not gotten 3 Visions for at least one set.

    Once you have all 3, you can boost your chances with the Mystery Verses (I know one's Utility, not sure if they all are).

    The transformation verses are so powerful that I think they're almost always worth taking, unless you really need another particular Vision for your build.

    The farthest I have gotten is Arc 5 and I don't see me getting a lot further mostly because of time constraints... unless they put in a save.

    But I completed Werewolf and Scorching before I ever made it past Arc 2, and the friend I run this with has gotten all 3 in the early Arcs, so why is Crystalline so much worse for me?

    I was so convinced that there is something going on with my account preventing me from getting these that I put in a ticket asking them to check into it, and they assured me that all of these have equal chances of appearing and I was just having bad luck. They didn't say anything about needing to advance further into the Archive to get any of them.

    Which brings me back to the point that achievements should be obtainable with skill and effort and not just luck.

    Also, getting even 1 Crystalline on a run is rare for me, let alone 3.
    Edited by SilverBride on December 30, 2023 4:16PM
    PCNA
  • Elvenheart
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    Of course, then sometimes something like this happens, which can be rather frustrating in and of itself:
    2tp8mr0hyol2.jpg
  • SilverBride
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    Elvenheart wrote: »
    Of course, then sometimes something like this happens, which can be rather frustrating in and of itself:

    That should never happen, but it does.
    Edited by SilverBride on December 30, 2023 8:01PM
    PCNA
  • Erickson9610
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    Elvenheart wrote: »
    Of course, then sometimes something like this happens, which can be rather frustrating in and of itself:

    That should never happen, but it does.

    At least it's understandable why it happens. Each Vision set has an Offensive, Defensive, and Utility Vision within it, and the three Verse/Vision choices always let you pick one from any of those three categories.

    I've actually had this happen to me before with the Ferocious set. It's just pure RNG that every Vision from a particular set would show up on a single Vision choice.

    I don't think it shouldn't happen, but I suppose if you wanted to prevent this, you'd move each Vision within a set to the category which its associated Verse resides. This would mean that all Ferocious Visions would be in the Offensive category, all Crystalline Visions would be in the Defensive category, and all Scorching Visions would be in the Utility category. Thus, you know what kind of Verse to expect from the Visions, and only one Vision of the same set can show up at the same time.
  • SilverBride
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    I finally got the Ice Avatar today after weeks of trying for several hours a day and never even finding one Crystalline for many of those days, even though I was finding Scorching and Ferocious often.

    It's was a relief to finally achieve this but the weeks attempting something that was completely dependent on just luck was beyond frustrating.
    PCNA
  • Elvenheart
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    Elvenheart wrote: »
    Of course, then sometimes something like this happens, which can be rather frustrating in and of itself:
    2tp8mr0hyol2.jpg

    I wish this had been a slot machine 😂
  • SilverBride
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    Are 3 Scorching worth more than 3 cherries?
    PCNA
  • Sarannah
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    Though I do agree that it is RNG, it is not bad RNG and you can target farm for these. You get about average one avatar vision per arc. Meaning going to arc 3 will often get you the transformation verse.

    But I'm not feeling it is bad RNG. I once had a transformation at the beginning of arc 2 already. Something like 2.1.2.
  • Araneae6537
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    Haven’t there always been RNG based achievements in ESO? Like the monster trophy one? Sure, the more you hunt, the greater your odds, but the same could be said of the verses and visions as well. At least there is no dye or furnishing behind these verse achievements.

    More frustrating to me is the general RNG of the visions, in too many being near useless. Besides the obvious gold and XP visions, I don’t know why many visions are specific to martial vs. magic damage — direct/aoe/dot/critical/etc. should be enough. It is a small bonus anyway (3% in most cases).
  • SilverBride
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    I don't doubt that some players have better luck than others. But when I went through 3 or 4 Arcs each run, sometimes more, and got multiple Scorching and Ferocious but no Crystalline, that is extremely bad luck. It took me weeks playing for hours every day to finally get this particular one.

    There is RNG in a lot of achievements, but not just RNG. Monster trophies give the player some control because they know that a particular trophy will drop off a particular monster, and only that trophy will drop from it. We can farm multiple of these quickly unlike the Visions that only give one chance per cycle, or the occasional unknown portal that are not all easy to succeed at.

    Also, when farming for monster trophies we don't lose all the ones we found when we stop, unlike the Visions in the Infinite Archive that are lost when our run is over.
    Edited by SilverBride on December 31, 2023 4:36PM
    PCNA
  • cyberjanet
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    Sarannah wrote: »
    Though I do agree that it is RNG, it is not bad RNG and you can target farm for these. You get about average one avatar vision per arc.

    Seriously? Explain this, please, and this is a typical run for me:


    I didn't even get a flame aura or a fire orb or any half-decent verse. And the next vision I got offered a choice between martial art damage or vicious poison.

    This does not encourage me to stay in longer. This encourages me to log out with threads remaining and do something else.
    Favourite NPC: Wine-For-All
    Mostly PC-EU , with a lonely little guy on NA.
  • SkaiFaith
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    I'm in the process of obtaining "The Unending" title and I'm repeatedly soloing IA with Isobel until Arc 5 - not a single time I've unlocked the Ice Avatar, but I've had both the Werewolf and the Fire Atronac unlocked in the same run for two times already, while usually finding just 1 single vision for the Ice one.

    I'm having really bad RNG or RNG isn't working properly, I can't say, but "Keeping it cool" Achievement seems unfairly harder to obtain...
    Edited by SkaiFaith on January 1, 2024 7:46PM
  • SilverBride
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    SkaiFaith wrote: »
    I'm in the process of obtaining "The Unending" title and I'm repeatedly soloing IA with Isobel until Arc 5 - not a single time I've unlocked the Ice Avatar, but I've had both the Werewolf and the Fire Atronac unlocked in the same run for two times already, while usually finding just 1 single vision for the Ice one.

    I'm having really bad RNG or RNG isn't working properly, I can't say, but "Keeping it cool" Achievement seems unfairly harder to obtain...

    Well I think there is something wrong with it because I had a very similar experience with the Ice Avatar.
    PCNA
  • spartaxoxo
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    Ice Avatar is also the one I'm missing.
  • Stanx
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    I have The Unending title and the Ice Avatar was probably one of the last achievements I got. I had the atronach and bestial transformation pretty quickly.

    I was waiting a long time for a random vision, too. Lasting Harm I think it was. Just didn't drop.

    It could be RNG but it's strange a lot of people seem to be struggling with the Ice Avatar specifically.
    Edited by Stanx on January 2, 2024 1:08AM
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