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I owe Bethesda an apology

Tornaad
Tornaad
✭✭✭✭✭
I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs. And from the decade of experience I have working in tech support in one industry or another, I know that generally, if everyone using a product are not reliably experiencing the same problem, then the problem is not the product but something happening to it. Time and time again, when I have worked with individuals who were ranting and insulting the product I was troubleshooting, the call would start with them insulting me, the company I work/worked for, the the product I was supporting, and would end with me helping them figure out how they themselves were creating the problem. Obviously that was not always the case, but the exceptions generally included a massive email from corporate about a bad batch of products sent by the factory.

With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.
Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 26, 2023 2:37PM
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs.

    With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.

    This is not accurate. Please see the various unofficial patches (built by the community of modders) for various Bethesda games. All of these should have a change log of bug fixes as well as logs of errors/issues reported to those authors by the community.

    Furthermore, if you've ever played Fallout 3 vs Fallout NV, there is a world of difference in how things like quests and encounters and story and so forth are done just between those two games. Clearly, Obsidian has something extra that Bethesda doesn't have. Starfield is good in a way but yet its also kind of redundant with no real surprises from them still clinging to the creation engine.

    Many of us have either played and/or modded these games for years and we're all well aware of the many many problems that Bethesda games seem to possess as well as the tired approach to certain in-game elements that they just won't fix. Starfield I know had tons of issues and a steep learning curve when I first played it. See the Nexus forums/mods for further details.

    Sending them an apology isn't the right approach as many others have voiced their discontent with content in a calm, professional manner. An apology will not fix their issues. Its the things that many of us have talked about over and over again but some companies are now too big to fail, backed by even bigger money and so they don't care. They just throw old donuts at us under their brand and expect us to keep eating them because they come in a familiar box.
    Edited by Vulkunne on December 25, 2023 5:31AM
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • Tornaad
    Tornaad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs.

    With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.

    This is not accurate. Please see the various unofficial patches (built by the community of modders) for various Bethesda games. All of these should have a change log of bug fixes as well as logs of errors/issues reported to those authors by the community.

    Furthermore, if you've ever played Fallout 3 vs Fallout NV, there is a world of difference in how things like quests and encounters and story and so forth are done just between those two games. Clearly, Obsidian has something extra that Bethesda doesn't have. Starfield is good in a way but yet its also kind of redundant with no real surprises from them still clinging to the creation engine.

    Many of us have either played and/or modded these games for years and we're all well aware of the many many problems that Bethesda games seem to possess as well as the tired approach to certain in-game elements that they just won't fix. Starfield I know had tons of issues and a steep learning curve when I first played it. See the Nexus forums/mods for further details.

    Sending them an apology isn't the right approach as many others have voiced their discontent with content in a calm, professional manner. An apology will not fix their issues. Its the things that many of us have talked about over and over again but some companies are now too big to fail, backed by even bigger money and so they don't care. They just throw old donuts at us under their brand and expect us to keep eating them because they come in a familiar box.

    How many of those bugs addressed by the Unofficial patches were game breaking?
    The proper answer is none of them. Console players, up until recently did not have any mods, and yet for years people were able to play the vanilla versions of the game on both PC and console without being stopped by the bug.

    Additionally, my goal in making this was not to get anything fixed, but to share a perspective that I learned and as the title suggests, publicly apologize.
  • Masteroshi430
    Masteroshi430
    ✭✭✭
    Tornaad wrote: »
    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.

    No, no, no, no, no, no, no ! (o mama mia)
    You have to follow the RULES:
    - Always join side of game studio bashing when you can.
    - Constantly teach the game developers how to do it in your posts (if possible with fake graphs) while having near to no knowledge on the matter and not being a community creator (art, addons & other content)
    - Suggest things to do/features to the game studio at a moment everything has already been decided for the whole year for months thinking it would only take a few weeks to implement. e. g. NOW IS THE TIME!
    - Punctuate all your posts with a "Anyways, I don't play the game anymore" or things alike while still playing the game.
    - Overdose TO THE MAX that self entitled "you don't deserve me"/"that is below my expectations" attitude towards the game studio.
    - Do it with multiple accounts so the real awesome bug reports, suggestions are drown in the plethora and more difficult to find .
    - NEVER APOLOGISE

    :D


    Edited by Masteroshi430 on December 25, 2023 6:17AM
    @Masteroshi430 PC/EU (old French guy playing in English & addon author/maintainer) My addons
    Deshaan Honeydew Hors D'Oeuvre <<< FIX THAT TYPO GODDAMMIT!
  • Caligamy_ESO
    Caligamy_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Tornaad wrote: »
    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs.

    With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.

    This is not accurate. Please see the various unofficial patches (built by the community of modders) for various Bethesda games. All of these should have a change log of bug fixes as well as logs of errors/issues reported to those authors by the community.

    Furthermore, if you've ever played Fallout 3 vs Fallout NV, there is a world of difference in how things like quests and encounters and story and so forth are done just between those two games. Clearly, Obsidian has something extra that Bethesda doesn't have. Starfield is good in a way but yet its also kind of redundant with no real surprises from them still clinging to the creation engine.

    Many of us have either played and/or modded these games for years and we're all well aware of the many many problems that Bethesda games seem to possess as well as the tired approach to certain in-game elements that they just won't fix. Starfield I know had tons of issues and a steep learning curve when I first played it. See the Nexus forums/mods for further details.

    Sending them an apology isn't the right approach as many others have voiced their discontent with content in a calm, professional manner. An apology will not fix their issues. Its the things that many of us have talked about over and over again but some companies are now too big to fail, backed by even bigger money and so they don't care. They just throw old donuts at us under their brand and expect us to keep eating them because they come in a familiar box.

    How many of those bugs addressed by the Unofficial patches were game breaking?
    The proper answer is none of them
    . Console players, up until recently did not have any mods, and yet for years people were able to play the vanilla versions of the game on both PC and console without being stopped by the bug.

    Additionally, my goal in making this was not to get anything fixed, but to share a perspective that I learned and as the title suggests, publicly apologize.

    Just off the top of my head.. Alduins Wall in Skyrim still bugs out to this day and you will quite often be met with Esbern and Daphne in the wall room staring into oblivion and your main story quest is bugged forever. So yeah.. none of them I guess?

    Also.. Soultrap on Target for 2 seconds.
    Edited by Caligamy_ESO on December 25, 2023 7:35AM
    love is love
  • colossalvoids
    colossalvoids
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Tornaad wrote: »
    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs.

    With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.

    This is not accurate. Please see the various unofficial patches (built by the community of modders) for various Bethesda games. All of these should have a change log of bug fixes as well as logs of errors/issues reported to those authors by the community.

    Furthermore, if you've ever played Fallout 3 vs Fallout NV, there is a world of difference in how things like quests and encounters and story and so forth are done just between those two games. Clearly, Obsidian has something extra that Bethesda doesn't have. Starfield is good in a way but yet its also kind of redundant with no real surprises from them still clinging to the creation engine.

    Many of us have either played and/or modded these games for years and we're all well aware of the many many problems that Bethesda games seem to possess as well as the tired approach to certain in-game elements that they just won't fix. Starfield I know had tons of issues and a steep learning curve when I first played it. See the Nexus forums/mods for further details.

    Sending them an apology isn't the right approach as many others have voiced their discontent with content in a calm, professional manner. An apology will not fix their issues. Its the things that many of us have talked about over and over again but some companies are now too big to fail, backed by even bigger money and so they don't care. They just throw old donuts at us under their brand and expect us to keep eating them because they come in a familiar box.

    How many of those bugs addressed by the Unofficial patches were game breaking?
    The proper answer is none of them.

    It's uneducated guess at best, there's quite a few progress blocking ones in vanilla mw, oblivion and probably even skyrim still. Some are quite frequent so patching it's a best bet for an uninterrupted game experience. Almost none were touched by devs throughout the years, even the basic resolutions support is absent without mods which is kinda bizarre.
  • Sarannah
    Sarannah
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    People nowadays seem overly negative about everything: games, music, movies, tv shows, etc. Instead of enjoying what they love, they are hating what they hate.

    Just ignore it all and make up your own mind! Nothing/noone is perfect, and imperfection can be enjoyed as well.
  • Mesite
    Mesite
    ✭✭✭✭
    Some of my most memorable moments from the original Morrowind were when I fell through the ground and could see through walls.

    And in Skyrim once a mammoth fell from the sky and landed next to me and survived the fall.

    I have to say that I haven't had the bad experiences of bugs that some players have.
  • evan302
    evan302
    ✭✭✭
    Not quite sure why you posted this on the ESO forum.
  • tgrippa
    tgrippa
    ✭✭✭✭
    Hello Emil Pagliarulo.
    PCEU
    heh.
    heh.
  • SkaraMinoc
    SkaraMinoc
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    ✭✭
    You don't play ESO enough if you don't notice bugs that go unfixed for years.
    PC NA
  • Tornaad
    Tornaad
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    You don't play ESO enough if you don't notice bugs that go unfixed for years.

    I've played ESO as the sole game I play since 2017.
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    How many of those bugs addressed by the Unofficial patches were game breaking? The proper answer is none of them.

    That's a bold statement to make in the face of probably thousands of corrections made by the unofficial patches combined across pretty much every Bethesda game released. With Bethesda itself being more or less feeling obligated to make additional changes because of the work of the unofficial patch Teams. Again, apologizing for finding problems with whichever game was not the correct approach. Making them accountable for their product by the community organizing and providing real communication regarding many of these game-breaking issues was what actually fixed problems and made life better for everyone. Accountability starts with facts and metrics not feelings or personal bias.

    For example, many of us love the Bethesda games and the stories so forth. By and large they have been a good thing. And yet I know, especially from playing Starfield, how frustrating dealing with certain things can be. Just because players are critical about something doesn't mean we're looking to burn someone, it means we care about the thing. I just think that knowing the issues out there and many of which I've experienced myself that it's not my fault for trying to get them to listen. An apology is in many way an admission of guilt, although sometimes we say "I'm Sorry" to make someone feel better. But in this instance they're not owed an apology for the ... frustration and suffering? (that problems with their games seem to be plagued with) by those wanting to enjoy them.

    And if any should doubt my opinions on this, fine. Please see the internet and other opinions (as well as honest reviews) left by the community at large. Just please don't apologize for us. Help us make things right.
    Edited by Vulkunne on December 25, 2023 4:34PM
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • Idinuse
    Idinuse
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tornaad wrote: »
    How many of those bugs addressed by the Unofficial patches were game breaking?
    The proper answer is none of them.
    Console players, up until recently did not have any mods, and yet for years people were able to play the vanilla versions of the game on both PC and console without being stopped by the bug.

    Additionally, my goal in making this was not to get anything fixed, but to share a perspective that I learned and as the title suggests, publicly apologize.


    I for one consider the stuck in combat bug and slow bug in PvP to be game breaking. In a player versus player environment, entire groups not being able to mount for 5 minutes or more or being slowed to a crawl, is nullifying those players from competing on even terms for PvP. The only fix is death, a delve zoning or cheesemonger and the latter two are no options during prime time since you probably won't be able to get back to Cyrodiil due to pop lock and long queues.
    Edited by Idinuse on December 25, 2023 4:26PM
    Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?
  • FluffyBird
    FluffyBird
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    For me, problem with ESO bugs was how glaring they are. Invisible npcs, bugged textures on characters, missing voices - in main quests. And I cannot recall ZOS ever saying "we have to postpone release to iron out some wrinkles" - so it gave the impression that they just don't care about their own product.

    Unlike some other games, which, with all their bugs, still felt like a beloved child of devs.
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.

    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game.

    Bethesda Game Studios and ZOS are two different studios. They have historically had different quality models.

    ESO has game breaking bugs. The ones I tend to notice are quest related bugs where the player is unable to progress without some remediation. They even have service bulletins out from Support on how to remediate some of these. Quest bugs can often be remediated through player action, prior to the bug getting fixed. Player workarounds for a bug do not fix the bug or make a game breaking bug suddenly not game breaking.

    The advantage of the ZOS quality model is that there is the possibility of fixes for all the bugs, but we all have to wait for them to do it.

    Even with the wait, I prefer what ZOS is doing over how BGS handles it.

    As for my background... I have played this game since 2014 and have played on all platforms and geographies.


    Tornaad wrote: »
    All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    As I said above, I see bugs and quality problems every time I play a Bethesda Game Studios game. Starfield is absolutely no exception to this. The game has quality issues that should have been resolved prior to launch, even if they had to delay again.

    To date, Bethesda has not fixed the critical problems that caused me issues on my play through.





    Edited by Elsonso on December 25, 2023 9:56PM
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Kisakee
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    Elsonso wrote: »
    As I said above, I see bugs and quality problems every time I play a Bethesda Game Studios game. Starfield is absolutely no exception to this. The game has quality issues that should have been resolved prior to launch, even if they had to delay again.

    To date, Bethesda has not fixed the critical problems that caused me issues on my play through.

    You seem to believe that they know every possible bug prior to release, in fact those get revealed by people actually playing the game. And no, no amount of playtesters would be able to reveal all the bugs that could potentially happen plus they need data from players as not everyone is running into the same problems.

    So yes, the playerbase is some kind of playtesters and this can't be prevented with such massive games.
    Edited by Kisakee on December 25, 2023 5:52PM
    "I don't know who you are, but i will find you and i will rob you." - Liam Thiefsson
  • Elsonso
    Elsonso
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    .
    Kisakee wrote: »
    Elsonso wrote: »
    As I said above, I see bugs and quality problems every time I play a Bethesda Game Studios game. Starfield is absolutely no exception to this. The game has quality issues that should have been resolved prior to launch, even if they had to delay again.

    To date, Bethesda has not fixed the critical problems that caused me issues on my play through.

    You seem to believe that they know every possible bug prior to release, in fact those get revealed by people actually playing the game. And no, no amount of playtesters would be able to reveal all the bugs that could potentially happen plus they need data from players as not everyone is running into the same problems.

    So yes, the playerbase is some kind of playtesters and this can't be prevented with such massive games.

    No, I do not believe that they can know every bug prior to release. However, this is not the venue for going into details.

    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • katanagirl1
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    As someone mentioned previously, one player experiencing a bug but another who isn’t does not mean there is no bug.

    There is a patch notes section here in the forums. You can read about all the bugs that were acknowledged and fixed with each patch, so there definitely are problems that needed to be addressed. If it were as you say, then that section of the forums would be blank.
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  • AzuraFan
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    Tornaad wrote: »
    I know that generally, if everyone using a product are not reliably experiencing the same problem, then the problem is not the product but something happening to it. Time and time again, when I have worked with individuals who were ranting and insulting the product I was troubleshooting, the call would start with them insulting me, the company I work/worked for, the the product I was supporting, and would end with me helping them figure out how they themselves were creating the problem.

    Maybe that's how it worked out for you when you were doing support, but it's simply not true in many cases. Just take a simple case. Sometimes a game runs great on one manufacturer's video card but has problems on another. The player isn't doing anything wrong.

    Another type of bug that's really common in software (and is really hard to debug) is what's called a threading problem. Without going into details, it all comes down to timing. One person may never run into the problem but another does, and it's definitely not the user's fault. It's a bug in the code.

    Are there cases when a player/user is responsible, or there's something installed on that person's machine that's causing the problem? Sure. But often it has nothing to do with the player/user.
  • OsUfi
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    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs.

    With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.



    Clearly, Obsidian has had something extra that Bethesda doesn't have.

    At best, past tense. NV was worse than 76 for unreliability at launch, and whatever they had during NV days, they'd lost by Outer Worlds release. One of the most forgettable games ever.
  • spartaxoxo
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    Bethesda games do have more bugs than other games I've played. But, they also tend to have a lot more going on in the background than other games I play too. I mean look at that.

    https://youtu.be/Kdt8x0ZYKpQ?t=24

    I also think the number of game breaking bugs gets exaggerated. It's usually smaller stuff that has a workaround. I mean not always. I've certainly had to abandon quests and the like, which I don't have to do with other games and has earned them their reputation. But, I have not experienced it at the level of frequency that it gets meme'd about. Mostly, it's just silly jank. I've had hundreds of hours playing Skryim and already have quite a bit of Starfield hours logged. I think ESO is my most played game ever, personally. Although, ESO is made by a sister company.
  • NotaDaedraWorshipper
    NotaDaedraWorshipper
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    OsUfi wrote: »
    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Tornaad wrote: »
    I got introduced to Bethesda games when Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind came out and quickly fell in love with the Elder Scrolls franchise. About 2 years after Oblivion came out, Elder Scrolls games became the only games I play. Sure, I don't put a lot of time into gaming, generally about an hour a day, sometimes more on the weekends, but that would be it.
    In that time, including my time spent with ESO, I have rarely encountered any bugs of any real game breaking level (unless a mod I put into the game introduced it). And the few bugs I have found that were crippling in nature, were quickly patched. However, I still bought into the popular opinion thrown around on the internet that suggests that Bethesda games are full of bugs.

    For my job, I work in Tech Support. My job is to find the problems people are having with their security systems and then get them back to working level. As result of my job, I know well the difference between problems people create on their own and problems created by the game. I also know that there are all too often groups of people who end up with similar problems that are never able to be reproduced in a controlled environment, and unless you can reproduce those problems, you cannot fix them. Taking it one step farther, from the perspective of someone who has worked in a call center for more than a decade, the customer is not always right. All too often the customer has no clue about what the real problem might be. For security systems, I look at two accounts, both installed on the same day, by the same installer, using the exact same parts, that all came from the same batch of parts from the factory, and for some reason, one can go for years and only ever need help figuring out how to change the battery, while the other can barely go 2 weeks without a problem. After seeing the same exact thing play out time after time, I have often wondered if the individual calling up with the problems is somehow causing the problems themselves. Obviously, this would not be intentional, because that just does not make sense. But I know it is not the parts. The other account proves that. If it were a bad batch of parts the other set of parts would have the same problem. At a bare minimum, it would show up in far more accounts than what actually occurs.

    With that in mind, I also know that computers and things like Elder Scrolls games are remarkably complex and could have thousands of possible things interfere with them. All of this came up in my mind because I recently found out that my brother stopped playing Starfield over a "bug" supposedly in the game that would prevent it from being completed properly, however, when I searched about the reported bugs in the game, the "bug" he heard all about, did not exist. From there, I realized that I was getting caught up in the wave of people reporting problems with a game that I had never seen myself.

    So, for that, to the wonderful people at ZoS, and Bethesda, I am sorry, I got caught up in the unfair attack on the quality of your games.



    Clearly, Obsidian has had something extra that Bethesda doesn't have.

    At best, past tense. NV was worse than 76 for unreliability at launch, and whatever they had during NV days, they'd lost by Outer Worlds release. One of the most forgettable games ever.

    It's not. Still has a lot of their good writing and Obsidian has other great games that proves they're still better at writing. Like Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny and others.
    [Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!
  • FluffyBird
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    AzuraFan wrote: »
    Another type of bug that's really common in software (and is really hard to debug) is what's called a threading problem. Without going into details, it all comes down to timing. One person may never run into the problem but another does, and it's definitely not the user's fault. It's a bug in the code.

    I work in test automation and can confirm that those bugs exist and they are the worst.
  • UnseenCat
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    FluffyBird wrote: »
    AzuraFan wrote: »
    Another type of bug that's really common in software (and is really hard to debug) is what's called a threading problem. Without going into details, it all comes down to timing. One person may never run into the problem but another does, and it's definitely not the user's fault. It's a bug in the code.

    I work in test automation and can confirm that those bugs exist and they are the worst.

    Ugh, I've been in IT support and administration for over two decades, and timing/threading problems are a nightmare. And how they can rear their ugly heads just because a particular end-user runs a particular combination of software that randomly triggers one due to sheer dumb luck. everything can be perfect in isolation, and then software makes its way out into the Real World and finds new and interesting ways to break... :bangs head:
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    While we understand that you may have interest in other topics, we ask that threads remain focused on ESO. As we want to keep the discussion on the forums focused on this game, we've closed this thread.

    Thank you for your understanding.
    Staff Post
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