Update 41 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

TESO is in need of a shake up.

Dekrypted
Dekrypted
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As usual, I have to preface this post by stating that a majority of it will be PvP focused, but some of the contents of this post do have crossover to PvE elements. PvE is not my main avenue, but I do participate in some trials, arenas, Endless Archive, and I can say that some of the sentiments can be felt across the spectrum of gameplay within ESO.
Obligatory tag of @ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_Kevin

I wanted to start this thread out by posing the question: "How with so many sets in Elder Scrolls Online are everyone using the same 5-15 sets?"

As of the current patch; dating to December 11, 2023 (Update 40), intentionally keeping the math simple we can estimate there are roughly 437 sets in the game. Not including mythics, 3pc sets, and ability-altering weapons, there are roughly 95,266 different combinations of gear you can use. This is under the assumption that you're only going to run 2 5pc sets. If you factor in 2 5-piece sets and one 2-piece monster set, there are over 6,000,000 different combinations of gear. Before any people who are better than myself at math slide into the chat, I want to stress that this is an estimate. The likely number of combinations goes up if the most accurate math is applied. This is to just try and give an idea of what's out there. There are obviously other sets that can easily be written off based off of the content within this game, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you consider how many 3-piece sets, ability altering, and mythics are in the game, the amount of sets goes well over 500.

My next question: "Has anyone ever taken the time to really look at what builds are used in PvE and PvP?"

In PvP, there's probably about 20 - 30 sets that are used. Everything else is ignored for the most part except the occasional player who wants to use something that is not within the 20 - 30 sets every other regular PvPer is using and would eventually find out why it's not commonly used. Briefly looking at PvE, there's probably 20 - 30 sets that are regularly used, not considering min-maxxing. 20 -30 sets in PvE and 20 - 30 sets in PvP out of how many sets? We're really just using less than 100? I'm all for the stated mantra of "Play how you want". Having the options is amazing. I cannot stress that enough. But when you take the time going through different internet database resources compiling what sets are available, or even the in-game collections menu, does this not feel like wasted effort?

I am in no means trying to bash anyone and their decision to run what they want to and am happy that the options exist, but if me as a PvPer see's a set like Adamant Lurker, I can understand that it's clearly not for me and my kind of gameplay, but how many patches go by where sets like this aren't an option at all even in PvE? A common complaint I've seen when surveying different threads across the forums is a lack of build diversity. Within the PvP circles, a common complaint I've found is that it's stale. That's one of the key descriptive words. When you have 5 times the amount of sets available versus what the players are actually using, that would be a very accurate assessment of the customer/player experience within ESO. How can so many sets be released, but so few be considered to be even competitive within the spaces they were designed for?

Before Zenimax continues to introduce more and more sets and increase the number of possible combinations that can be considered by the player, will there ever be any time to reassess and review the current offerings of sets and update them to be considered by the player?



Shifting focus to abilities. We have Active and Ultimate's. Not counting passives in this as they are.. passive.

The player of ESO has access to 82 active abilities and 16 different ultimate's. I can take the time to go through every ability and can tell what is commonly used and what isn't based on my own experience, however it's not my job to audit the game, so I'll refrain from doing so. A lot of players are typically using a similar combination of skills just like they are with their gear. The variability just doesn't exist. I as a player who has played since the Beta/Launch of ESO can recall encounters where I thought "What are they doing?" "What an interesting combination!" While I will say I am a seasoned player and can decipher what someone is doing pretty quick, things have become more of the same and I'm not seeing anything fresh. I know that sentiment is shared by many players, regulars and veterans alike. We're limited to 12 abilities on our skill bars. 10 active and 2 ultimate's. The choices exist, but we're seemingly funneled into so few real choices due to different factors. Class interaction, content, benefits/penalties that exist across each classes tool-kit, and so on.

In my opinion, a more serious approach to adjusting the combat experience for players needs to be made. Something tangible and less perceived platitudes. The same complaints have existed in spaces like Cyrodiil for years. With the lack of real changes that have happened in the past few years, I for one almost miss the large swings in changes that would occur every couple patches. Someone could leave this game a year ago and come back to ask me "Hey anything change?" with the answer being "Nope."

These players don't last long. Retention feels non-existent besides the players who just log on to do some dailies and dip out. I can only assume there is a theory that exists in many games within the genre of ESO that the longer a player is online, the more profit the game will generate. We're definitely not fitting that mold, at least from my perspective as a long time player of this game who has over 10s of thousands of hours in it. I've seen so many people leave and simply just not come back. It's a bummer and it's gotta change for the better.

I'm fully aware that not many will agree with my sentiment and that's fine, but I would ask that players be civil in the thread as to not incur the moderators ire. Below are some threads I compiled across the different sub-categories of the forums to buttress my comments made. I would like to add that I as an individual I understand that Zenimax has their own plan for the game, but hopefully going forward into the future, we can see improved communication and more productive conversations take place to better engage the die-hard ESO player and continue to bring newer players into the fold. It's the end of the year and one can only hope that as we enter 2024 and the 10 year anniversary for The Elder Scrolls Online, we can hopefully have more positive things to share about this game. We're all clearly fans of it and wouldn't have stuck around this long if we weren't.

Combat & Character Mechanics: Public Test Server: PvP Combat & Skills: Alliance War & Imperial City: Campaigns: Battlegrounds & Dueling:
Edited by Dekrypted on December 11, 2023 11:29PM
PC NA
March 2014 - December 2023
No longer active

Templar Main
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Amottica wrote: »
    As for the number of sets being used, no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally. It is a mathematical certainty. It is also a mathematical certainty that we will always have a small number of skills we will use out of the numerous ones we have available to use.

    Even with those "large swings in changes" Zenimax used to implement the best builds were still very limited. The only thing that really changed was what gear we had to grind for and that was never a good thing.

    There are two types of players in MMORPGs. Those that play all year long and those that come back for new content and temporarily move on to something else until more new content is released. In reality, the two most important aspects of a game for retention is regular and interesting content additions and a fun combat experience. That does a lot more than having to grind for new gear because the devs took a "large swing in changes".

    So as my original post mentioned, it focused in on the fact that while everyone is using 20 - 30 sets across the different respective spaces of ESO, it stresses the point that there is a lack of build diversity. It is very clear and plain to see from what I've written that the issue isn't " no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally" but moreso the fact that there are no realistic alternatives anymore. Why run certain dungeons when the gear alone isn't worth using? The lack of competitive alternatives to the most optimal gear causes people to not even play parts of the game.

    There was a time when there were alternatives, especially in PvP and that was eliminated. This is apart of what can cause the game to be stale. I personally haven't changed my build in 2 years. Why? Because there's actually no point. Unless I'm bored and want to test a theory or have been requested to assist in creating a specific niche build, I haven't used anything different than what I always do. It's actually a running joke among my friends.

    "large swing in changes" are not limited to gear and my comments referring to such was not specific to gear. Skills can be changed. Passives and so on. New gear can be implemented in accessible ways. Plenty of other MMOs have gear that you can only use in PvP environments and the rest of the game would have a separate offering of gear. That gear in PvP is accessible and only acquired in PvP. You've chosen to attach me mentioning "large swing in changes" to gear alone. ESO has had many patches where the shift was in skills, not gear.

    Following up on the specific line,
    Amottica wrote: »
    "In reality, the two most important aspects of a game for retention is regular and interesting content additions and a fun combat experience."
    I did specifically mention that retention for players, especially within PvP is low because nothings changed. It's stale. No new maps for BGs, matchmaking leaves alot to be desired, Cyrodiil has it's same issues its had for years, only 1 - 2, sometimes 3 or 4 pvp events a year whereas PvE gets more than triple that (it feels), the same bugs yet to be addressed in any tangible way, and the list goes on. I took the time to list all of the threads I used when writing my original post to add additional context.

    One thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644208/necromancer-class-form-feedback/p1 sites over 20 different threads talking about the same issues. Like how there are "two types of players in MMORPGs", there are two type of people who communicate via text/written formats. Ones who use multiple spaces in-between their sentences such as yourself and those who don't. (I noticed this when quoting your original message. I think the forums shortens it by default through) That doesn't mean that your style of communication is less valid than mine, but there is still a space where we can both communicate in a fair and equal setting. I think players should be able to be able to have a space where their needs can be met. Whether that would be the returning player or the regular player who comes on daily.
    Edited by Dekrypted on December 12, 2023 12:22AM
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Amottica wrote: »
    As for the number of sets being used, no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally. It is a mathematical certainty. It is also a mathematical certainty that we will always have a small number of skills we will use out of the numerous ones we have available to use.

    Even with those "large swings in changes" Zenimax used to implement the best builds were still very limited. The only thing that really changed was what gear we had to grind for and that was never a good thing.

    There are two types of players in MMORPGs. Those that play all year long and those that come back for new content and temporarily move on to something else until more new content is released. In reality, the two most important aspects of a game for retention is regular and interesting content additions and a fun combat experience. That does a lot more than having to grind for new gear because the devs took a "large swing in changes".

    So as my original post mentioned, it focused in on the fact that while everyone is using 20 - 30 sets across the different respective spaces of ESO, it stresses the point that there is a lack of build diversity. It is very clear and plain to see from what I've written that the issue isn't " no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally" but moreso the fact that there are no realistic alternatives anymore. Why run certain dungeons when the gear alone isn't worth using? The lack of competitive alternatives to the most optimal gear causes people to not even play parts of the game.

    There was a time when there were alternatives, especially in PvP and that was eliminated. This is apart of what can cause the game to be stale. I personally haven't changed my build in 2 years. Why? Because there's actually no point. Unless I'm bored and want to test a theory or have been requested to assist in creating a specific niche build, I haven't used anything different than what I always do. It's actually a running joke among my friends.

    "large swing in changes" are not limited to gear and my comments referring to such was not specific to gear. Skills can be changed. Passives and so on. New gear can be implemented in accessible ways. Plenty of other MMOs have gear that you can only use in PvP environments and the rest of the game would have a separate offering of gear. That gear in PvP is accessible and only acquired in PvP. You've chosen to attach me mentioning "large swing in changes" to gear alone. ESO has had many patches where the shift was in skills, not gear.

    Following up on the specific line,
    Amottica wrote: »
    "In reality, the two most important aspects of a game for retention is regular and interesting content additions and a fun combat experience."
    I did specifically mention that retention for players, especially within PvP is low because nothings changed. It's stale. No new maps for BGs, matchmaking leaves alot to be desired, Cyrodiil has it's same issues its had for years, only 1 - 2, sometimes 3 or 4 pvp events a year whereas PvE gets more than triple that (it feels), the same bugs yet to be addressed in any tangible way, and the list goes on. I took the time to list all of the threads I used when writing my original post to add additional context.

    One thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644208/necromancer-class-form-feedback/p1 sites over 20 different threads talking about the same issues. Like how there are "two types of players in MMORPGs", there are two type of people who communicate via text/written formats. Ones who use multiple spaces in-between their sentences such as yourself and those who don't. (I noticed this when quoting your original message. I think the forums shortens it by default through) That doesn't mean that your style of communication is less valid than mine, but there is still a space where we can both communicate in a fair and equal setting. I think players should be able to be able to have a space where their needs can be met. Whether that would be the returning player or the regular player who comes on daily.

    I explained the exact reason why there is a lack of build diversity even with the sheer number of choices of skills and gear and that will not change.

    I will add here that the only way diversity in ESO will be increased is by improving the performance of class skills so some are more desirable to use. At least then there will be some class flavor/diversity between classes.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Amottica wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Amottica wrote: »
    As for the number of sets being used, no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally. It is a mathematical certainty. It is also a mathematical certainty that we will always have a small number of skills we will use out of the numerous ones we have available to use.

    Even with those "large swings in changes" Zenimax used to implement the best builds were still very limited. The only thing that really changed was what gear we had to grind for and that was never a good thing.

    There are two types of players in MMORPGs. Those that play all year long and those that come back for new content and temporarily move on to something else until more new content is released. In reality, the two most important aspects of a game for retention is regular and interesting content additions and a fun combat experience. That does a lot more than having to grind for new gear because the devs took a "large swing in changes".

    So as my original post mentioned, it focused in on the fact that while everyone is using 20 - 30 sets across the different respective spaces of ESO, it stresses the point that there is a lack of build diversity. It is very clear and plain to see from what I've written that the issue isn't " no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally" but moreso the fact that there are no realistic alternatives anymore. Why run certain dungeons when the gear alone isn't worth using? The lack of competitive alternatives to the most optimal gear causes people to not even play parts of the game.

    There was a time when there were alternatives, especially in PvP and that was eliminated. This is apart of what can cause the game to be stale. I personally haven't changed my build in 2 years. Why? Because there's actually no point. Unless I'm bored and want to test a theory or have been requested to assist in creating a specific niche build, I haven't used anything different than what I always do. It's actually a running joke among my friends.

    "large swing in changes" are not limited to gear and my comments referring to such was not specific to gear. Skills can be changed. Passives and so on. New gear can be implemented in accessible ways. Plenty of other MMOs have gear that you can only use in PvP environments and the rest of the game would have a separate offering of gear. That gear in PvP is accessible and only acquired in PvP. You've chosen to attach me mentioning "large swing in changes" to gear alone. ESO has had many patches where the shift was in skills, not gear.

    Following up on the specific line,
    Amottica wrote: »
    "In reality, the two most important aspects of a game for retention is regular and interesting content additions and a fun combat experience."
    I did specifically mention that retention for players, especially within PvP is low because nothings changed. It's stale. No new maps for BGs, matchmaking leaves alot to be desired, Cyrodiil has it's same issues its had for years, only 1 - 2, sometimes 3 or 4 pvp events a year whereas PvE gets more than triple that (it feels), the same bugs yet to be addressed in any tangible way, and the list goes on. I took the time to list all of the threads I used when writing my original post to add additional context.

    One thread, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644208/necromancer-class-form-feedback/p1 sites over 20 different threads talking about the same issues. Like how there are "two types of players in MMORPGs", there are two type of people who communicate via text/written formats. Ones who use multiple spaces in-between their sentences such as yourself and those who don't. (I noticed this when quoting your original message. I think the forums shortens it by default through) That doesn't mean that your style of communication is less valid than mine, but there is still a space where we can both communicate in a fair and equal setting. I think players should be able to be able to have a space where their needs can be met. Whether that would be the returning player or the regular player who comes on daily.

    I explained the exact reason why there is a lack of build diversity even with the sheer number of choices of skills and gear and that will not change.

    I will add here that the only way diversity in ESO will be increased is by improving the performance of class skills so some are more desirable to use. At least then there will be some class flavor/diversity between classes.

    And I thank you for your added feedback.
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Alharion
    Alharion
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    Unfortunately, like many studios, it's a studio that wants us to play what they want us to play, not what we want to play...

    There are so many aberrant points, but it's easier to ignore them than to deal with them, and unfortunately the first victims of this will be the players...
  • Turtle_Bot
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    Dekrypted wrote: »

    Look Ma! I'm on the forum post :wink:

    Definitely agree that there needs to be a shake up of many things in the game, not just sets and skills, but classes as well.

    Many of the older sets will realistically only need small buffs and/or slightly easier conditions to bring them up to a level close enough to current BiS sets to make them viable alternatives. Yes, they will likely still not be the min-maxed, be-all, end-all, BiS sets to run, but they would be able to compete with the other sets, especially when built around them.

    There was a thread that I don't think you linked that asked players what sets they feel needed to be updated. That one had lot of sets listed on it. If I can find it I will try to link it unless you find it first. Iirc it was either in the general, combat & mechs, PTS or PvP combat & skills sub-forum and it has had a comment in the past week or so, so should be fairly recent.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Turtle_Bot wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »

    Look Ma! I'm on the forum post :wink:

    Definitely agree that there needs to be a shake up of many things in the game, not just sets and skills, but classes as well.

    Many of the older sets will realistically only need small buffs and/or slightly easier conditions to bring them up to a level close enough to current BiS sets to make them viable alternatives. Yes, they will likely still not be the min-maxed, be-all, end-all, BiS sets to run, but they would be able to compete with the other sets, especially when built around them.

    There was a thread that I don't think you linked that asked players what sets they feel needed to be updated. That one had lot of sets listed on it. If I can find it I will try to link it unless you find it first. Iirc it was either in the general, combat & mechs, PTS or PvP combat & skills sub-forum and it has had a comment in the past week or so, so should be fairly recent.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/644279/what-sets-do-you-think-need-adjusted-reworked

    Found it for you :D
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
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    Templar Main
  • Araneae6537
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    Amottica wrote: »
    As for the number of sets being used, no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally. It is a mathematical certainty. It is also a mathematical certainty that we will always have a small number of skills we will use out of the numerous ones we have available to use.

    Different sets could be meta for different classes, even as there used to be different sets meta for magicka and stamina DPS. And what if different classes were meta for different encounters, like if some enemies had some resistance to one element and weakness to another? All viable for all content but different meta for different things?

    At least I think that could be interesting, perhaps if it came with buffs to those classes that need it (necro, non-pet sorc options). I have no desire for sweeping changes, however.
    Edited by Araneae6537 on December 12, 2023 6:49AM
  • chessalavakia_ESO
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    I think you hit the issue that many of the people most upset about balance are also the people that min-max the most.

    I think ZOS could definitely make more sets look like viable options to the average player without too much effort but, for someone that min-maxed you'd likely need to lean on automation and the result could easily not be particularly fun.

    For example, ZOS could scrape the skills and equipment for each kill and automatically have changes applied to them (in Cyrodiil only) and have them stack in an additive manner week after week.

    If something is in the top 10% of usage, it takes a 2% nerf
    If something is in the top 11%-20% of usage, it takes a 1% nerf
    If something is in the bottom 11%-20% of usage, it gets a 1% buff
    If something is in the bottom 10% of usage, it gets a 2% buff

    Initially, this implementation would do very little to shift the balance but, after a few months it would likely produce movement as the set/ability quality degrades or increases enough to make changes a consideration.

    This approach however will run into the issue that popular items will likely eventually get nerfed too much or fail to get buffed sufficiently. You may also hit the issue that items that aren't much fun may creep into being overpowered before people actually end up using them which could lead to a month+ of an annoying meta before they fall out of usage when people notice they are actually OP.

    Plus, this might add load to the servers in regular operations depending on how much ZOS already logs.





  • gariondavey
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    great post, i hope @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_Kevin see this one
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • RoxyPhoenix
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    I think this is a wonderful discussion we are having here, after all, nearly 10 years have passed since the game's inception and we all have so much experience with it that most of us can easily write a book on it. The game itself has also become such a gargantuan piece of software that it is a monumental challenge to try and balance it in any meaningful way even for ZOS let alone us, the players. Yet we still try, as we prove by making hundreds if not thousands of posts on this very forum. Wheater DEVs do the show the same effort, is rather unknown. I want to believe they do, I want to believe they know it all, I want to believe they care but are restricted in their decisions by the corporate reality of an AAA game that at the end of the day is there to make money.
  • Sarannah
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    Personally I always dislike major changes, because if I don't like those changes it removes an element of fun from the game.

    Also, PvPers don't seem to understand balance is impossible to achieve! And in PvP the min-max crowd will eventually only leave a handful of sets to be used. This has nothing to do with how many sets are in-game, the PvP crowd selects these sets based on min-maxing. Keep in mind, some of the linked threads were made by players who want their overpowered class to become even more overpowered.

    The real major change PvP needs, is making it more accessible for PvE players. But these types of sweeping changes won't be liked by the current PvP crowd at all. As that would mean much longer battles(millions of health, allowing players to learn to PvP), template builds to choose from(balance), capping damage output to really low DPS like 3k tops(balance), infinite resources/no healing(win or lose combat), and any other ways to make PvP more PvE player/new player friendly. Like removing weaving and animation canceling, and making PvP less reactive(creating skill balance and latency removal). That would grow the PvP scene. But every time these ideas are posted in other PvP threads, these are shot down by PvPers instantly. (ZOS could make a new BG with all these types of changes, to see how popular it may be amongst PvE players)

    The things is, the changes needed to make the PvP population grow, aren't going to be liked by the ones currently PvPing and liking ESO PvP as it is now. So it becomes a choice... do PvPers want the current PvP with a dwindling population and no new PvP content, or do they want to draw in the huge mass of PvE players and make PvP grow and eventually maybe even get more PvP content? (ZOS knows this, and this is probably the reason they haven't tried anything new with PvP. Whatever they pick, they will be the ones taking the heat. Lose - Lose situation.)

    PvPers always look at balance or other small things inside of PvP to be the main issue with PvP, but the way ESO's PvP itself works is the issue with PvP. Even fixing the cyrodiil lag and other latency issues won't help PvP much, as that would maybe draw in a handful of PvP players who left due to those reasons. But would still leave out all the PvE players as it is now. Basically making all that effort wasted.
  • rauyran
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    One thing I found interesting was that the Endless Archive has resulted in a whole new category of builds using sets that aren't meta in PVP or other PVE content.

    It's natural that there are different metas for different modes of play. If any combination of gear gives a small advantage then obviously that attracts players to that setup which then becomes the meta. Having new content unlock a new meta is really interesting.

    That said, there are still a lot of dead sets that really don't have a use in any content. Many of them were designed for a game that no longer exists due to combat evolution and could do with a rethink, but equally many could become viable in new content modes if they were added.
  • Dekrypted
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    Cloudrest wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    There was a time when there were alternatives, especially in PvP and that was eliminated. This is apart of what can cause the game to be stale.

    I mean, you can say it how it is: Hybridization really started killing the game and is the source of many of the problems people have currently. It's destroyed so much variety in the combat system and in the way of build diversity-- there used to be varied builds for Stamplar and Magplar for example, and now there's simply one optimized setup for Templar, irregardless. Same can be said for almost every other class. It's boring.

    I recall when the idea of hybridization was being introduced, it didn't sound like the worst thing on the planet, but I think it's implementation is what has left us where we are. Doing something like that is effectively an overhaul of a large portion of combat, but in doing so, things that fall through the gap don't seem to be brought back up to par either.

    In an effort to simplify things, they've removed options while still adding in sets. The sets can't be considered because they aren't even remotely an alternative either.

    I like using the stamina and mag morph of jabs when I compare a disparity in abilities. Before the dmg nerf and the ever famous animation change, biting jabs giving brutality? Awesome. Mag jabs healing? Eh okay I guess in PvP, quite nice in PvE. Now with the damage reduction, the utility of brutality still exists, but there's no "bite" behind the stam jabs. There's no feeling of "Puncturing" my target with the mag jabs. The abilities need something fresh to stay relevant and nerfing it while slapping an existing motif on isn't it. I know nightblade abilities have a ton of secondary effects, but the same couldn't be said for templars. Necromancers are just not fun to use in any real capacity. Sorcs still can't heal themselves all that well.

    Like the hybridization could've solved some problems, but it seemingly just hit some back end calculations and then stopped. What was the point when now you don't have a Stamplar or magplar, like you said and now only a templar.

    We ended up with less because the problems that existed before wernt addressed with this change and the new problems seemingly didn't do the job either. The opportunity to have more was lost and it seems like the priorities have just shifted onto other things.
    Edited by Dekrypted on December 12, 2023 12:09PM
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
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  • Sarannah
    Sarannah
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    ✭✭✭
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Personally I always dislike major changes, because if I don't like those changes it removes an element of fun from the game.

    Also, PvPers don't seem to understand balance is impossible to achieve! And in PvP the min-max crowd will eventually only leave a handful of sets to be used. This has nothing to do with how many sets are in-game, the PvP crowd selects these sets based on min-maxing. Keep in mind, some of the linked threads were made by players who want their overpowered class to become even more overpowered.

    Totally get that. That is why I stated that outside of the clear higher performing sets, competitive alternatives no longer exist. There was a time when there was. We are no longer in that. Plenty of sets and skills frankly could use some adjustments to be real alternatives to the current popular sets. Especially in PvP where not much has changed in 2+ years, I think it's a start towards shaking things up. Some skills could use some updating. Class abilities and otherwise. Stagnation is boring too.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real major change PvP needs, is making it more accessible for PvE players. But these types of sweeping changes won't be liked by the current PvP crowd at all. As that would mean much longer battles(millions of health, allowing players to learn to PvP), template builds to choose from(balance), capping damage output to really low DPS like 3k tops(balance), infinite resources/no healing(win or lose combat), and any other ways to make PvP more PvE player/new player friendly. Like removing weaving and animation canceling, and making PvP less reactive(creating skill balance and latency removal). That would grow the PvP scene. But every time these ideas are posted in other PvP threads, these are shot down by PvPers instantly. (ZOS could make a new BG with all these types of changes, to see how popular it may be amongst PvE players)

    I cannot speak for alot of other MMOs outside of what I've personally played, but I never have seen anything that really brought people into PvP other than existing players or the individuals interest and grit to stick it out and learn the content.

    I've spent, probably at this point hundreds of hours teaching players PvP in eso. Noobs just picking up the game, players who in irl are disabled, players experienced in PvP in other games, RPers, casuals, veterans, and the list really goes on. From mentoring to the basics to even trying to break into some of the higher end gameplay. A good chunk start to come into their own with time and assistance. I personally learned alot about eso watching gameplay, doing research, testing, alot of trial and error, and alot of frustration. If I had someone like myself helping me, I'd be alot closer to where I am now in alot less time. I spend time with these players who have a desire to learn and while meeting them where they are at, the amount of "thank yous" and comments saying "you inspired me to give this class another shot in pvp" are honestly so encouraging. It's a bit rough to say the least, but while it may he nearly impossible to achieve a real balanced combat space in this game, I think it's fair to continue making a noticeable effort to get there.

    Imo some of your suggestions would take alot out of PvP and leave things in something of a neutered space. To remove various components like weaving, capping damage, or making combat less reactive taoes away from what makes ESOs combat system something that despite the myriad of concerns, people still come back and enjoy it to a large degree. Its a huge selling point if the game esoecially when you compare it to other IPs within the genre. It is possible to rise to the moment (so to speak), but having players around your skill level and a real space to develop can help alot more. There are alot of crossover components of gameplay between PvE and PvP. Explaining these things and going step by step, finding what works best for the individual and their skill level have helped bring players more into the PvP space and allowed them to actually stick around. I personally wish I didn't have to DM some 2vxers I'd see while I'm out with a group of inexperienced players showing them the ropes letting them know "hey we're not going to do the tower fight with yall. I'm teaching rn", but if it can get these guys out there and keep them out there, it's super awesome to see those pvpers move on to find the fightd they're actually looking for.

    A real matchmaking system I think would be a great place to start. A dummy with stats you can customize would also help as well. Group duels as an option allowing players of a similar skill to practice more scenarios without going into a corner of Imperial City and pray the 9 million nightblades in cloak don't find you. More feedback from the developers in visible spaces to provide some degree of instruction for how to best succeed in those spaces. The list can go on.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The things is, the changes needed to make the PvP population grow, aren't going to be liked by the ones currently PvPing and liking ESO PvP as it is now. So it becomes a choice... do PvPers want the current PvP with a dwindling population and no new PvP content, or do they want to draw in the huge mass of PvE players and make PvP grow and eventually maybe even get more PvP content? (ZOS knows this, and this is probably the reason they haven't tried anything new with PvP. Whatever they pick, they will be the ones taking the heat. Lose - Lose situation.)

    I don't think it has to be a lose lose situation. In the past, I've seen PvPers make countless posts, reach out on various forms of media trying to get their concerns heard and they've been dismissed, ignored, or otherwise. If you have developers sit down with these people, swallow the bitter pill and really hear these guys out and genuinely try to make something positive happen, I think you'd see a ton of PvPers be on board for finding what's going to really work in the long term. Yeah they'll be some pent up frustration that's gotta get aired out. That's what happens when you delete their posts in twitch streams or make fun of them for asking legitimate questions. They play the game too. They don't deserve to be treated as less than others.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    PvPers always look at balance or other small things inside of PvP to be the main issue with PvP, but the way ESO's PvP itself works is the issue with PvP. Even fixing the cyrodiil lag and other latency issues won't help PvP much, as that would maybe draw in a handful of PvP players who left due to those reasons. But would still leave out all the PvE players as it is now. Basically making all that effort wasted.

    I do respectfully disagree that if latency issues surrounding cyrodiil and pvp as a whole were fixed, it wouldn't help that much. I think it would be a good signal of thongs toncome, but its something that cannot be done on its own. If there was an entire patch with tangible changes that revitalized PvP as a whole, I think it would bring in a decent amount of players. If done effectively, it could even get more pvers into the space as well. You can't fix performance, but then have no content at the same time. Roll out a new matchmaking system and some new bg maps to start. Commit and follow through on new maps every other update or something. New game modes that encourage PvP instead of just running away from your opponents in tank gear. Increase the rewards in Imperial City. Doing that will bring more players in. Look at why there are people there during events. Real incentives and real vehicles to get iut there and stay out there. Losing or dying isnt fun, but getting out there and carving a space for yourself in a PvP setting has its own rewards too.
    Gave you an awesome for your awesome reply. And yes, I know my suggestions would cause a neutered PvP as you called it. But that does work for most PvE players as well. Look at WoW's Alterac Valley for instance, non-reactive PvP but more group focused and with long battles. Calling for help is often more important than doing two extra swings on players. While the zone itself funneled players into the same lane, to create conflict/combat between the two factions. Would love to see something like this in ESO, but with the way current combat works in ESO, this can't happen. Due to most players dying practically instantly, instead of having actual PvP battles. Current ESO PvP isn't really PvP, it's a slaughterfest. Which is why real PvP zones(like Alterac Valley) can't really happen.

    And huge props to those players teaching other players how to play! As someone who received help from another player when I returned to ESO, this was awesome and really made a difference to me. The problem with this is though, it requires other players to teach, which only so many can do at the same time. A less reactive and longer lasting combat, will allow players to learn on their own. "Hey, he used that ability and took 10% of my health in one go. How can I counter this next time?" -Allowing players to learn themselves. Current ESO combat is players dying in 0.2 seconds, with no chance and no way to realize what happened. This is also the main cause for hardly anyone trying PvP, it is just a miserable experience for most players, with no chance to improve or change it for themselves.
    The reason players flock to PvP zones during events, is due to the rewards only dropping there. Like event tickets. Most of those players do not want to be there. Which is made clear after the event ends, and the zone is empty again.

    PS: Awesome thread btw!!
    Edited by Sarannah on December 12, 2023 10:37AM
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Personally I always dislike major changes, because if I don't like those changes it removes an element of fun from the game.

    Also, PvPers don't seem to understand balance is impossible to achieve! And in PvP the min-max crowd will eventually only leave a handful of sets to be used. This has nothing to do with how many sets are in-game, the PvP crowd selects these sets based on min-maxing. Keep in mind, some of the linked threads were made by players who want their overpowered class to become even more overpowered.

    Totally get that. That is why I stated that outside of the clear higher performing sets, competitive alternatives no longer exist. There was a time when there was. We are no longer in that. Plenty of sets and skills frankly could use some adjustments to be real alternatives to the current popular sets. Especially in PvP where not much has changed in 2+ years, I think it's a start towards shaking things up. Some skills could use some updating. Class abilities and otherwise. Stagnation is boring too.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real major change PvP needs, is making it more accessible for PvE players. But these types of sweeping changes won't be liked by the current PvP crowd at all. As that would mean much longer battles(millions of health, allowing players to learn to PvP), template builds to choose from(balance), capping damage output to really low DPS like 3k tops(balance), infinite resources/no healing(win or lose combat), and any other ways to make PvP more PvE player/new player friendly. Like removing weaving and animation canceling, and making PvP less reactive(creating skill balance and latency removal). That would grow the PvP scene. But every time these ideas are posted in other PvP threads, these are shot down by PvPers instantly. (ZOS could make a new BG with all these types of changes, to see how popular it may be amongst PvE players)

    I cannot speak for alot of other MMOs outside of what I've personally played, but I never have seen anything that really brought people into PvP other than existing players or the individuals interest and grit to stick it out and learn the content.

    I've spent, probably at this point hundreds of hours teaching players PvP in eso. Noobs just picking up the game, players who in irl are disabled, players experienced in PvP in other games, RPers, casuals, veterans, and the list really goes on. From mentoring to the basics to even trying to break into some of the higher end gameplay. A good chunk start to come into their own with time and assistance. I personally learned alot about eso watching gameplay, doing research, testing, alot of trial and error, and alot of frustration. If I had someone like myself helping me, I'd be alot closer to where I am now in alot less time. I spend time with these players who have a desire to learn and while meeting them where they are at, the amount of "thank yous" and comments saying "you inspired me to give this class another shot in pvp" are honestly so encouraging. It's a bit rough to say the least, but while it may he nearly impossible to achieve a real balanced combat space in this game, I think it's fair to continue making a noticeable effort to get there.

    Imo some of your suggestions would take alot out of PvP and leave things in something of a neutered space. To remove various components like weaving, capping damage, or making combat less reactive taoes away from what makes ESOs combat system something that despite the myriad of concerns, people still come back and enjoy it to a large degree. Its a huge selling point if the game esoecially when you compare it to other IPs within the genre. It is possible to rise to the moment (so to speak), but having players around your skill level and a real space to develop can help alot more. There are alot of crossover components of gameplay between PvE and PvP. Explaining these things and going step by step, finding what works best for the individual and their skill level have helped bring players more into the PvP space and allowed them to actually stick around. I personally wish I didn't have to DM some 2vxers I'd see while I'm out with a group of inexperienced players showing them the ropes letting them know "hey we're not going to do the tower fight with yall. I'm teaching rn", but if it can get these guys out there and keep them out there, it's super awesome to see those pvpers move on to find the fightd they're actually looking for.

    A real matchmaking system I think would be a great place to start. A dummy with stats you can customize would also help as well. Group duels as an option allowing players of a similar skill to practice more scenarios without going into a corner of Imperial City and pray the 9 million nightblades in cloak don't find you. More feedback from the developers in visible spaces to provide some degree of instruction for how to best succeed in those spaces. The list can go on.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The things is, the changes needed to make the PvP population grow, aren't going to be liked by the ones currently PvPing and liking ESO PvP as it is now. So it becomes a choice... do PvPers want the current PvP with a dwindling population and no new PvP content, or do they want to draw in the huge mass of PvE players and make PvP grow and eventually maybe even get more PvP content? (ZOS knows this, and this is probably the reason they haven't tried anything new with PvP. Whatever they pick, they will be the ones taking the heat. Lose - Lose situation.)

    I don't think it has to be a lose lose situation. In the past, I've seen PvPers make countless posts, reach out on various forms of media trying to get their concerns heard and they've been dismissed, ignored, or otherwise. If you have developers sit down with these people, swallow the bitter pill and really hear these guys out and genuinely try to make something positive happen, I think you'd see a ton of PvPers be on board for finding what's going to really work in the long term. Yeah they'll be some pent up frustration that's gotta get aired out. That's what happens when you delete their posts in twitch streams or make fun of them for asking legitimate questions. They play the game too. They don't deserve to be treated as less than others.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    PvPers always look at balance or other small things inside of PvP to be the main issue with PvP, but the way ESO's PvP itself works is the issue with PvP. Even fixing the cyrodiil lag and other latency issues won't help PvP much, as that would maybe draw in a handful of PvP players who left due to those reasons. But would still leave out all the PvE players as it is now. Basically making all that effort wasted.

    I do respectfully disagree that if latency issues surrounding cyrodiil and pvp as a whole were fixed, it wouldn't help that much. I think it would be a good signal of thongs toncome, but its something that cannot be done on its own. If there was an entire patch with tangible changes that revitalized PvP as a whole, I think it would bring in a decent amount of players. If done effectively, it could even get more pvers into the space as well. You can't fix performance, but then have no content at the same time. Roll out a new matchmaking system and some new bg maps to start. Commit and follow through on new maps every other update or something. New game modes that encourage PvP instead of just running away from your opponents in tank gear. Increase the rewards in Imperial City. Doing that will bring more players in. Look at why there are people there during events. Real incentives and real vehicles to get iut there and stay out there. Losing or dying isnt fun, but getting out there and carving a space for yourself in a PvP setting has its own rewards too.
    Gave you an awesome for your awesome reply. And yes, I know my suggestions would cause a neutered PvP as you called it. But that does work for most PvE players as well. Look at WoW's Alterac Valley for instance, non-reactive PvP but more group focused and with long battles. Calling for help is often more important than doing two extra swings on players. While the zone itself funneled players into the same lane, to create conflict/combat between the two factions. Would love to see something like this in ESO, but with the way current combat works in ESO, this can't happen. Due to most players dying practically instantly, instead of having actual PvP battles. Current ESO PvP isn't really PvP, it's a slaughterfest. Which is why real PvP zones(like Alterac Valley) can't really happen.

    And huge props to those players teaching other players how to play! As someone who received help from another player when I returned to ESO, this was awesome and really made a difference to me. The problem with this is though, it requires other players to teach, which only so many can do at the same time. A less reactive and longer lasting combat, will allow players to learn on their own. "Hey, he used that ability and took 10% of my health in one go. How can I counter this next time?" -Allowing players to learn themselves. Current ESO combat is players dying in 0.2 seconds, with no chance and no way to realize what happened. This is also the main cause for hardly anyone trying PvP, it is just a miserable experience for most players, with no chance to improve or change it for themselves.
    The reason players flock to PvP zones during events, is due to the rewards only dropping there. Like event tickets. Most of those players do not want to be there. Which is made clear after the event ends, and the zone is empty again.

    PS: Awesome thread btw!!

    Thank you!

    Combat is a bit rough when it comes to how fast it cam be. When I am doing some practice fights with inexperienced players, I intentionally slow down the amount of damage I'm doing to give then a chance to get their bearings for the flow of combat before steadily increasing this. I demonstrate how fast you have to be, what are key things you want to identify while in combat, and provide tips to improve for the next fight. Really it's like drills and I even have several houses to help teach these core things that one would need to grasp in PvP.

    You touched on a point I have mention in some other threads in the past. There is a real lack of infrastructure within the PvP space and the current infrastructure is not up to par. The fact that so many things are player driven in ESO is something that has been the norm for a long time. Any change you want to happen in this game historically comes from the players changing the status quo moreso than Zenimax using their tools to do so. I do believe that there will always be a time and place for the development team to step in and utilize those tools because there is only so much players can fix.

    Locking in on an earlier mention of an updated matchmaking system. I recall with High Isle, Tales of Tribute received its own matchmaking system. Just by clicking on the tab, you can see that it's clearly new, it's leaderboard seems to be much more of what players in a competitive space are looking for, you have something if a Ranked vs casual queue, decent rewards... but what about the regular leaderboard system for cyrodiil and battlegrounds? Why wasn't this new system adopted across these other spaces at the same time? If you have a tangible rework to the matchmaking system that is more combat efficacy driven compared to the current, the inexperienced player would only have to worry about smurf players in their space that they're trying to learn and the seasoned veterans can get down to the gritty fights they desire.

    I don't even recall a recent reset of the current MMR system that used to take place every patch or so. I'm personally stuck fighting the same 20 people and I cannot test a build out against some of the sweatiest of the sweat. If I group queue, finally get in a match after 20 minutes, and see 2 other teams that alspend 8 hours a day in there, I warn my friends "Hey. This isnt going to be fun. If you want to give it a shot, I'll hang back with you, but this isn't something you're going to enjoy. Some of these guys even screenshot the leaderboards to gloat later with their friends in discord" (I know this because I used to be in them)

    After they try the fight out and I ask them, "How'd it go?" I'm told "I liked the game mode, but I do not want to play with those players"

    The current system doesn't keep people in the space. I'm not saying I've tracked this, but I have seen queues slow down when some of these teams log on. Could it be because less people are queuing after encountering these players? Hard to say, but the screenshots they'd post in their discords with empty opposing teams or maybe 1 player who got in towards the end of the match might indicate they're not coming back for the day.

    A lengthy example, but the matchmaking is rough and could be a real vehicle to give some breathing room to the inexperienced.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The reason players flock to PvP zones during events, is due to the rewards only dropping there. Like event tickets. Most of those players do not want to be there. Which is made clear after the event ends, and the zone is empty again.

    Whether it's more pvp events or controlled increase in some of the drops, I think some attention outside of what's currently done with a space like Imperial City could be great. Heftier rewards for the bosses in the sewers, maybe some more useful/competitive monster sets dropping from them, leads, an adjustment to some of the penalties you experience above ground vs underground. The possibilities go on and on, but Imperial City remains an unused vehicle to say the least. I for one experience consistently smooth performance there. Event or no event. Don't think we should be leaving the car that runs fine sitting in the garage all year when we don't have to, haha
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Personally I always dislike major changes, because if I don't like those changes it removes an element of fun from the game.

    Also, PvPers don't seem to understand balance is impossible to achieve! And in PvP the min-max crowd will eventually only leave a handful of sets to be used. This has nothing to do with how many sets are in-game, the PvP crowd selects these sets based on min-maxing. Keep in mind, some of the linked threads were made by players who want their overpowered class to become even more overpowered.

    Totally get that. That is why I stated that outside of the clear higher performing sets, competitive alternatives no longer exist. There was a time when there was. We are no longer in that. Plenty of sets and skills frankly could use some adjustments to be real alternatives to the current popular sets. Especially in PvP where not much has changed in 2+ years, I think it's a start towards shaking things up. Some skills could use some updating. Class abilities and otherwise. Stagnation is boring too.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real major change PvP needs, is making it more accessible for PvE players. But these types of sweeping changes won't be liked by the current PvP crowd at all. As that would mean much longer battles(millions of health, allowing players to learn to PvP), template builds to choose from(balance), capping damage output to really low DPS like 3k tops(balance), infinite resources/no healing(win or lose combat), and any other ways to make PvP more PvE player/new player friendly. Like removing weaving and animation canceling, and making PvP less reactive(creating skill balance and latency removal). That would grow the PvP scene. But every time these ideas are posted in other PvP threads, these are shot down by PvPers instantly. (ZOS could make a new BG with all these types of changes, to see how popular it may be amongst PvE players)

    I cannot speak for alot of other MMOs outside of what I've personally played, but I never have seen anything that really brought people into PvP other than existing players or the individuals interest and grit to stick it out and learn the content.

    I've spent, probably at this point hundreds of hours teaching players PvP in eso. Noobs just picking up the game, players who in irl are disabled, players experienced in PvP in other games, RPers, casuals, veterans, and the list really goes on. From mentoring to the basics to even trying to break into some of the higher end gameplay. A good chunk start to come into their own with time and assistance. I personally learned alot about eso watching gameplay, doing research, testing, alot of trial and error, and alot of frustration. If I had someone like myself helping me, I'd be alot closer to where I am now in alot less time. I spend time with these players who have a desire to learn and while meeting them where they are at, the amount of "thank yous" and comments saying "you inspired me to give this class another shot in pvp" are honestly so encouraging. It's a bit rough to say the least, but while it may he nearly impossible to achieve a real balanced combat space in this game, I think it's fair to continue making a noticeable effort to get there.

    Imo some of your suggestions would take alot out of PvP and leave things in something of a neutered space. To remove various components like weaving, capping damage, or making combat less reactive taoes away from what makes ESOs combat system something that despite the myriad of concerns, people still come back and enjoy it to a large degree. Its a huge selling point if the game esoecially when you compare it to other IPs within the genre. It is possible to rise to the moment (so to speak), but having players around your skill level and a real space to develop can help alot more. There are alot of crossover components of gameplay between PvE and PvP. Explaining these things and going step by step, finding what works best for the individual and their skill level have helped bring players more into the PvP space and allowed them to actually stick around. I personally wish I didn't have to DM some 2vxers I'd see while I'm out with a group of inexperienced players showing them the ropes letting them know "hey we're not going to do the tower fight with yall. I'm teaching rn", but if it can get these guys out there and keep them out there, it's super awesome to see those pvpers move on to find the fightd they're actually looking for.

    A real matchmaking system I think would be a great place to start. A dummy with stats you can customize would also help as well. Group duels as an option allowing players of a similar skill to practice more scenarios without going into a corner of Imperial City and pray the 9 million nightblades in cloak don't find you. More feedback from the developers in visible spaces to provide some degree of instruction for how to best succeed in those spaces. The list can go on.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The things is, the changes needed to make the PvP population grow, aren't going to be liked by the ones currently PvPing and liking ESO PvP as it is now. So it becomes a choice... do PvPers want the current PvP with a dwindling population and no new PvP content, or do they want to draw in the huge mass of PvE players and make PvP grow and eventually maybe even get more PvP content? (ZOS knows this, and this is probably the reason they haven't tried anything new with PvP. Whatever they pick, they will be the ones taking the heat. Lose - Lose situation.)

    I don't think it has to be a lose lose situation. In the past, I've seen PvPers make countless posts, reach out on various forms of media trying to get their concerns heard and they've been dismissed, ignored, or otherwise. If you have developers sit down with these people, swallow the bitter pill and really hear these guys out and genuinely try to make something positive happen, I think you'd see a ton of PvPers be on board for finding what's going to really work in the long term. Yeah they'll be some pent up frustration that's gotta get aired out. That's what happens when you delete their posts in twitch streams or make fun of them for asking legitimate questions. They play the game too. They don't deserve to be treated as less than others.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    PvPers always look at balance or other small things inside of PvP to be the main issue with PvP, but the way ESO's PvP itself works is the issue with PvP. Even fixing the cyrodiil lag and other latency issues won't help PvP much, as that would maybe draw in a handful of PvP players who left due to those reasons. But would still leave out all the PvE players as it is now. Basically making all that effort wasted.

    I do respectfully disagree that if latency issues surrounding cyrodiil and pvp as a whole were fixed, it wouldn't help that much. I think it would be a good signal of thongs toncome, but its something that cannot be done on its own. If there was an entire patch with tangible changes that revitalized PvP as a whole, I think it would bring in a decent amount of players. If done effectively, it could even get more pvers into the space as well. You can't fix performance, but then have no content at the same time. Roll out a new matchmaking system and some new bg maps to start. Commit and follow through on new maps every other update or something. New game modes that encourage PvP instead of just running away from your opponents in tank gear. Increase the rewards in Imperial City. Doing that will bring more players in. Look at why there are people there during events. Real incentives and real vehicles to get iut there and stay out there. Losing or dying isnt fun, but getting out there and carving a space for yourself in a PvP setting has its own rewards too.
    Gave you an awesome for your awesome reply. And yes, I know my suggestions would cause a neutered PvP as you called it. But that does work for most PvE players as well. Look at WoW's Alterac Valley for instance, non-reactive PvP but more group focused and with long battles. Calling for help is often more important than doing two extra swings on players. While the zone itself funneled players into the same lane, to create conflict/combat between the two factions. Would love to see something like this in ESO, but with the way current combat works in ESO, this can't happen. Due to most players dying practically instantly, instead of having actual PvP battles. Current ESO PvP isn't really PvP, it's a slaughterfest. Which is why real PvP zones(like Alterac Valley) can't really happen.

    And huge props to those players teaching other players how to play! As someone who received help from another player when I returned to ESO, this was awesome and really made a difference to me. The problem with this is though, it requires other players to teach, which only so many can do at the same time. A less reactive and longer lasting combat, will allow players to learn on their own. "Hey, he used that ability and took 10% of my health in one go. How can I counter this next time?" -Allowing players to learn themselves. Current ESO combat is players dying in 0.2 seconds, with no chance and no way to realize what happened. This is also the main cause for hardly anyone trying PvP, it is just a miserable experience for most players, with no chance to improve or change it for themselves.
    The reason players flock to PvP zones during events, is due to the rewards only dropping there. Like event tickets. Most of those players do not want to be there. Which is made clear after the event ends, and the zone is empty again.

    PS: Awesome thread btw!!

    Why is the burden of proof on PvP players?
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    As usual, I have to preface this post by stating that a majority of it will be PvP focused, but some of the contents of this post do have crossover to PvE elements. PvE is not my main avenue, but I do participate in some trials, arenas, Endless Archive, and I can say that some of the sentiments can be felt across the spectrum of gameplay within ESO.
    Obligatory tag of @ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_Kevin

    I wanted to start this thread out by posing the question: "How with so many sets in Elder Scrolls Online are everyone using the same 5-15 sets?"

    As of the current patch; dating to December 11, 2023 (Update 40), intentionally keeping the math simple we can estimate there are roughly 437 sets in the game. Not including mythics, 3pc sets, and ability-altering weapons, there are roughly 95,266 different combinations of gear you can use. This is under the assumption that you're only going to run 2 5pc sets. If you factor in 2 5-piece sets and one 2-piece monster set, there are over 6,000,000 different combinations of gear. Before any people who are better than myself at math slide into the chat, I want to stress that this is an estimate. The likely number of combinations goes up if the most accurate math is applied. This is to just try and give an idea of what's out there. There are obviously other sets that can easily be written off based off of the content within this game, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you consider how many 3-piece sets, ability altering, and mythics are in the game, the amount of sets goes well over 500.

    My next question: "Has anyone ever taken the time to really look at what builds are used in PvE and PvP?"

    In PvP, there's probably about 20 - 30 sets that are used. Everything else is ignored for the most part except the occasional player who wants to use something that is not within the 20 - 30 sets every other regular PvPer is using and would eventually find out why it's not commonly used. Briefly looking at PvE, there's probably 20 - 30 sets that are regularly used, not considering min-maxxing. 20 -30 sets in PvE and 20 - 30 sets in PvP out of how many sets? We're really just using less than 100? I'm all for the stated mantra of "Play how you want". Having the options is amazing. I cannot stress that enough. But when you take the time going through different internet database resources compiling what sets are available, or even the in-game collections menu, does this not feel like wasted effort?

    I am in no means trying to bash anyone and their decision to run what they want to and am happy that the options exist, but if me as a PvPer see's a set like Adamant Lurker, I can understand that it's clearly not for me and my kind of gameplay, but how many patches go by where sets like this aren't an option at all even in PvE? A common complaint I've seen when surveying different threads across the forums is a lack of build diversity. Within the PvP circles, a common complaint I've found is that it's stale. That's one of the key descriptive words. When you have 5 times the amount of sets available versus what the players are actually using, that would be a very accurate assessment of the customer/player experience within ESO. How can so many sets be released, but so few be considered to be even competitive within the spaces they were designed for?

    Before Zenimax continues to introduce more and more sets and increase the number of possible combinations that can be considered by the player, will there ever be any time to reassess and review the current offerings of sets and update them to be considered by the player?



    Shifting focus to abilities. We have Active and Ultimate's. Not counting passives in this as they are.. passive.

    The player of ESO has access to 82 active abilities and 16 different ultimate's. I can take the time to go through every ability and can tell what is commonly used and what isn't based on my own experience, however it's not my job to audit the game, so I'll refrain from doing so. A lot of players are typically using a similar combination of skills just like they are with their gear. The variability just doesn't exist. I as a player who has played since the Beta/Launch of ESO can recall encounters where I thought "What are they doing?" "What an interesting combination!" While I will say I am a seasoned player and can decipher what someone is doing pretty quick, things have become more of the same and I'm not seeing anything fresh. I know that sentiment is shared by many players, regulars and veterans alike. We're limited to 12 abilities on our skill bars. 10 active and 2 ultimate's. The choices exist, but we're seemingly funneled into so few real choices due to different factors. Class interaction, content, benefits/penalties that exist across each classes tool-kit, and so on.

    In my opinion, a more serious approach to adjusting the combat experience for players needs to be made. Something tangible and less perceived platitudes. The same complaints have existed in spaces like Cyrodiil for years. With the lack of real changes that have happened in the past few years, I for one almost miss the large swings in changes that would occur every couple patches. Someone could leave this game a year ago and come back to ask me "Hey anything change?" with the answer being "Nope."

    These players don't last long. Retention feels non-existent besides the players who just log on to do some dailies and dip out. I can only assume there is a theory that exists in many games within the genre of ESO that the longer a player is online, the more profit the game will generate. We're definitely not fitting that mold, at least from my perspective as a long time player of this game who has over 10s of thousands of hours in it. I've seen so many people leave and simply just not come back. It's a bummer and it's gotta change for the better.

    I'm fully aware that not many will agree with my sentiment and that's fine, but I would ask that players be civil in the thread as to not incur the moderators ire. Below are some threads I compiled across the different sub-categories of the forums to buttress my comments made. I would like to add that I as an individual I understand that Zenimax has their own plan for the game, but hopefully going forward into the future, we can see improved communication and more productive conversations take place to better engage the die-hard ESO player and continue to bring newer players into the fold. It's the end of the year and one can only hope that as we enter 2024 and the 10 year anniversary for The Elder Scrolls Online, we can hopefully have more positive things to share about this game. We're all clearly fans of it and wouldn't have stuck around this long if we weren't.

    Combat & Character Mechanics: Public Test Server: PvP Combat & Skills: Alliance War & Imperial City: Campaigns: Battlegrounds & Dueling:

    Because there are too many sets. For example, depending on the person, however if someone goes into a clothing store they might purchase maybe a couple outfits but they're not going to wear everything in the store.
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Vulkunne wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Personally I always dislike major changes, because if I don't like those changes it removes an element of fun from the game.

    Also, PvPers don't seem to understand balance is impossible to achieve! And in PvP the min-max crowd will eventually only leave a handful of sets to be used. This has nothing to do with how many sets are in-game, the PvP crowd selects these sets based on min-maxing. Keep in mind, some of the linked threads were made by players who want their overpowered class to become even more overpowered.

    Totally get that. That is why I stated that outside of the clear higher performing sets, competitive alternatives no longer exist. There was a time when there was. We are no longer in that. Plenty of sets and skills frankly could use some adjustments to be real alternatives to the current popular sets. Especially in PvP where not much has changed in 2+ years, I think it's a start towards shaking things up. Some skills could use some updating. Class abilities and otherwise. Stagnation is boring too.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The real major change PvP needs, is making it more accessible for PvE players. But these types of sweeping changes won't be liked by the current PvP crowd at all. As that would mean much longer battles(millions of health, allowing players to learn to PvP), template builds to choose from(balance), capping damage output to really low DPS like 3k tops(balance), infinite resources/no healing(win or lose combat), and any other ways to make PvP more PvE player/new player friendly. Like removing weaving and animation canceling, and making PvP less reactive(creating skill balance and latency removal). That would grow the PvP scene. But every time these ideas are posted in other PvP threads, these are shot down by PvPers instantly. (ZOS could make a new BG with all these types of changes, to see how popular it may be amongst PvE players)

    I cannot speak for alot of other MMOs outside of what I've personally played, but I never have seen anything that really brought people into PvP other than existing players or the individuals interest and grit to stick it out and learn the content.

    I've spent, probably at this point hundreds of hours teaching players PvP in eso. Noobs just picking up the game, players who in irl are disabled, players experienced in PvP in other games, RPers, casuals, veterans, and the list really goes on. From mentoring to the basics to even trying to break into some of the higher end gameplay. A good chunk start to come into their own with time and assistance. I personally learned alot about eso watching gameplay, doing research, testing, alot of trial and error, and alot of frustration. If I had someone like myself helping me, I'd be alot closer to where I am now in alot less time. I spend time with these players who have a desire to learn and while meeting them where they are at, the amount of "thank yous" and comments saying "you inspired me to give this class another shot in pvp" are honestly so encouraging. It's a bit rough to say the least, but while it may he nearly impossible to achieve a real balanced combat space in this game, I think it's fair to continue making a noticeable effort to get there.

    Imo some of your suggestions would take alot out of PvP and leave things in something of a neutered space. To remove various components like weaving, capping damage, or making combat less reactive taoes away from what makes ESOs combat system something that despite the myriad of concerns, people still come back and enjoy it to a large degree. Its a huge selling point if the game esoecially when you compare it to other IPs within the genre. It is possible to rise to the moment (so to speak), but having players around your skill level and a real space to develop can help alot more. There are alot of crossover components of gameplay between PvE and PvP. Explaining these things and going step by step, finding what works best for the individual and their skill level have helped bring players more into the PvP space and allowed them to actually stick around. I personally wish I didn't have to DM some 2vxers I'd see while I'm out with a group of inexperienced players showing them the ropes letting them know "hey we're not going to do the tower fight with yall. I'm teaching rn", but if it can get these guys out there and keep them out there, it's super awesome to see those pvpers move on to find the fightd they're actually looking for.

    A real matchmaking system I think would be a great place to start. A dummy with stats you can customize would also help as well. Group duels as an option allowing players of a similar skill to practice more scenarios without going into a corner of Imperial City and pray the 9 million nightblades in cloak don't find you. More feedback from the developers in visible spaces to provide some degree of instruction for how to best succeed in those spaces. The list can go on.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    The things is, the changes needed to make the PvP population grow, aren't going to be liked by the ones currently PvPing and liking ESO PvP as it is now. So it becomes a choice... do PvPers want the current PvP with a dwindling population and no new PvP content, or do they want to draw in the huge mass of PvE players and make PvP grow and eventually maybe even get more PvP content? (ZOS knows this, and this is probably the reason they haven't tried anything new with PvP. Whatever they pick, they will be the ones taking the heat. Lose - Lose situation.)

    I don't think it has to be a lose lose situation. In the past, I've seen PvPers make countless posts, reach out on various forms of media trying to get their concerns heard and they've been dismissed, ignored, or otherwise. If you have developers sit down with these people, swallow the bitter pill and really hear these guys out and genuinely try to make something positive happen, I think you'd see a ton of PvPers be on board for finding what's going to really work in the long term. Yeah they'll be some pent up frustration that's gotta get aired out. That's what happens when you delete their posts in twitch streams or make fun of them for asking legitimate questions. They play the game too. They don't deserve to be treated as less than others.
    Sarannah wrote: »
    PvPers always look at balance or other small things inside of PvP to be the main issue with PvP, but the way ESO's PvP itself works is the issue with PvP. Even fixing the cyrodiil lag and other latency issues won't help PvP much, as that would maybe draw in a handful of PvP players who left due to those reasons. But would still leave out all the PvE players as it is now. Basically making all that effort wasted.

    I do respectfully disagree that if latency issues surrounding cyrodiil and pvp as a whole were fixed, it wouldn't help that much. I think it would be a good signal of thongs toncome, but its something that cannot be done on its own. If there was an entire patch with tangible changes that revitalized PvP as a whole, I think it would bring in a decent amount of players. If done effectively, it could even get more pvers into the space as well. You can't fix performance, but then have no content at the same time. Roll out a new matchmaking system and some new bg maps to start. Commit and follow through on new maps every other update or something. New game modes that encourage PvP instead of just running away from your opponents in tank gear. Increase the rewards in Imperial City. Doing that will bring more players in. Look at why there are people there during events. Real incentives and real vehicles to get iut there and stay out there. Losing or dying isnt fun, but getting out there and carving a space for yourself in a PvP setting has its own rewards too.
    Gave you an awesome for your awesome reply. And yes, I know my suggestions would cause a neutered PvP as you called it. But that does work for most PvE players as well. Look at WoW's Alterac Valley for instance, non-reactive PvP but more group focused and with long battles. Calling for help is often more important than doing two extra swings on players. While the zone itself funneled players into the same lane, to create conflict/combat between the two factions. Would love to see something like this in ESO, but with the way current combat works in ESO, this can't happen. Due to most players dying practically instantly, instead of having actual PvP battles. Current ESO PvP isn't really PvP, it's a slaughterfest. Which is why real PvP zones(like Alterac Valley) can't really happen.

    And huge props to those players teaching other players how to play! As someone who received help from another player when I returned to ESO, this was awesome and really made a difference to me. The problem with this is though, it requires other players to teach, which only so many can do at the same time. A less reactive and longer lasting combat, will allow players to learn on their own. "Hey, he used that ability and took 10% of my health in one go. How can I counter this next time?" -Allowing players to learn themselves. Current ESO combat is players dying in 0.2 seconds, with no chance and no way to realize what happened. This is also the main cause for hardly anyone trying PvP, it is just a miserable experience for most players, with no chance to improve or change it for themselves.
    The reason players flock to PvP zones during events, is due to the rewards only dropping there. Like event tickets. Most of those players do not want to be there. Which is made clear after the event ends, and the zone is empty again.

    PS: Awesome thread btw!!

    Why is the burden of proof on PvP players?
    Dekrypted wrote: »
    As usual, I have to preface this post by stating that a majority of it will be PvP focused, but some of the contents of this post do have crossover to PvE elements. PvE is not my main avenue, but I do participate in some trials, arenas, Endless Archive, and I can say that some of the sentiments can be felt across the spectrum of gameplay within ESO.
    Obligatory tag of @ZOS_GinaBruno & @ZOS_Kevin

    I wanted to start this thread out by posing the question: "How with so many sets in Elder Scrolls Online are everyone using the same 5-15 sets?"

    As of the current patch; dating to December 11, 2023 (Update 40), intentionally keeping the math simple we can estimate there are roughly 437 sets in the game. Not including mythics, 3pc sets, and ability-altering weapons, there are roughly 95,266 different combinations of gear you can use. This is under the assumption that you're only going to run 2 5pc sets. If you factor in 2 5-piece sets and one 2-piece monster set, there are over 6,000,000 different combinations of gear. Before any people who are better than myself at math slide into the chat, I want to stress that this is an estimate. The likely number of combinations goes up if the most accurate math is applied. This is to just try and give an idea of what's out there. There are obviously other sets that can easily be written off based off of the content within this game, but let's not jump to conclusions. If you consider how many 3-piece sets, ability altering, and mythics are in the game, the amount of sets goes well over 500.

    My next question: "Has anyone ever taken the time to really look at what builds are used in PvE and PvP?"

    In PvP, there's probably about 20 - 30 sets that are used. Everything else is ignored for the most part except the occasional player who wants to use something that is not within the 20 - 30 sets every other regular PvPer is using and would eventually find out why it's not commonly used. Briefly looking at PvE, there's probably 20 - 30 sets that are regularly used, not considering min-maxxing. 20 -30 sets in PvE and 20 - 30 sets in PvP out of how many sets? We're really just using less than 100? I'm all for the stated mantra of "Play how you want". Having the options is amazing. I cannot stress that enough. But when you take the time going through different internet database resources compiling what sets are available, or even the in-game collections menu, does this not feel like wasted effort?

    I am in no means trying to bash anyone and their decision to run what they want to and am happy that the options exist, but if me as a PvPer see's a set like Adamant Lurker, I can understand that it's clearly not for me and my kind of gameplay, but how many patches go by where sets like this aren't an option at all even in PvE? A common complaint I've seen when surveying different threads across the forums is a lack of build diversity. Within the PvP circles, a common complaint I've found is that it's stale. That's one of the key descriptive words. When you have 5 times the amount of sets available versus what the players are actually using, that would be a very accurate assessment of the customer/player experience within ESO. How can so many sets be released, but so few be considered to be even competitive within the spaces they were designed for?

    Before Zenimax continues to introduce more and more sets and increase the number of possible combinations that can be considered by the player, will there ever be any time to reassess and review the current offerings of sets and update them to be considered by the player?



    Shifting focus to abilities. We have Active and Ultimate's. Not counting passives in this as they are.. passive.

    The player of ESO has access to 82 active abilities and 16 different ultimate's. I can take the time to go through every ability and can tell what is commonly used and what isn't based on my own experience, however it's not my job to audit the game, so I'll refrain from doing so. A lot of players are typically using a similar combination of skills just like they are with their gear. The variability just doesn't exist. I as a player who has played since the Beta/Launch of ESO can recall encounters where I thought "What are they doing?" "What an interesting combination!" While I will say I am a seasoned player and can decipher what someone is doing pretty quick, things have become more of the same and I'm not seeing anything fresh. I know that sentiment is shared by many players, regulars and veterans alike. We're limited to 12 abilities on our skill bars. 10 active and 2 ultimate's. The choices exist, but we're seemingly funneled into so few real choices due to different factors. Class interaction, content, benefits/penalties that exist across each classes tool-kit, and so on.

    In my opinion, a more serious approach to adjusting the combat experience for players needs to be made. Something tangible and less perceived platitudes. The same complaints have existed in spaces like Cyrodiil for years. With the lack of real changes that have happened in the past few years, I for one almost miss the large swings in changes that would occur every couple patches. Someone could leave this game a year ago and come back to ask me "Hey anything change?" with the answer being "Nope."

    These players don't last long. Retention feels non-existent besides the players who just log on to do some dailies and dip out. I can only assume there is a theory that exists in many games within the genre of ESO that the longer a player is online, the more profit the game will generate. We're definitely not fitting that mold, at least from my perspective as a long time player of this game who has over 10s of thousands of hours in it. I've seen so many people leave and simply just not come back. It's a bummer and it's gotta change for the better.

    I'm fully aware that not many will agree with my sentiment and that's fine, but I would ask that players be civil in the thread as to not incur the moderators ire. Below are some threads I compiled across the different sub-categories of the forums to buttress my comments made. I would like to add that I as an individual I understand that Zenimax has their own plan for the game, but hopefully going forward into the future, we can see improved communication and more productive conversations take place to better engage the die-hard ESO player and continue to bring newer players into the fold. It's the end of the year and one can only hope that as we enter 2024 and the 10 year anniversary for The Elder Scrolls Online, we can hopefully have more positive things to share about this game. We're all clearly fans of it and wouldn't have stuck around this long if we weren't.

    Combat & Character Mechanics: Public Test Server: PvP Combat & Skills: Alliance War & Imperial City: Campaigns: Battlegrounds & Dueling:

    Because there are too many sets. For example, depending on the person, however if someone goes into a clothing store they might purchase maybe a couple outfits but they're not going to wear everything in the store.

    You don't have to nor should you be obligated to wear everything in the store, but things become stale when everyone is wearing the same shirt. Right? With the possibility for so many combinations of clothes, if all a business had to do was sell an appropriate size that a customer would want that is still comparable to to the same blue shirt everyone else has on, people would buy it too.

    Nothing wrong with adding some spice to one's wardrobe. Keeps things from getting stale :smiley:
    Edited by Dekrypted on December 12, 2023 11:30AM
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Vulkunne
    Vulkunne
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sarannah wrote: »
    Personally I always dislike major changes, because if I don't like those changes it removes an element of fun from the game.

    Also, PvPers don't seem to understand balance is impossible to achieve! And in PvP the min-max crowd will eventually only leave a handful of sets to be used. This has nothing to do with how many sets are in-game, the PvP crowd selects these sets based on min-maxing. Keep in mind, some of the linked threads were made by players who want their overpowered class to become even more overpowered.

    The real major change PvP needs, is making it more accessible for PvE players. But these types of sweeping changes won't be liked by the current PvP crowd at all. As that would mean much longer battles(millions of health, allowing players to learn to PvP), template builds to choose from(balance), capping damage output to really low DPS like 3k tops(balance), infinite resources/no healing(win or lose combat), and any other ways to make PvP more PvE player/new player friendly. Like removing weaving and animation canceling, and making PvP less reactive(creating skill balance and latency removal). That would grow the PvP scene. But every time these ideas are posted in other PvP threads, these are shot down by PvPers instantly. (ZOS could make a new BG with all these types of changes, to see how popular it may be amongst PvE players)

    The things is, the changes needed to make the PvP population grow, aren't going to be liked by the ones currently PvPing and liking ESO PvP as it is now. So it becomes a choice... do PvPers want the current PvP with a dwindling population and no new PvP content, or do they want to draw in the huge mass of PvE players and make PvP grow and eventually maybe even get more PvP content? (ZOS knows this, and this is probably the reason they haven't tried anything new with PvP. Whatever they pick, they will be the ones taking the heat. Lose - Lose situation.)

    PvPers always look at balance or other small things inside of PvP to be the main issue with PvP, but the way ESO's PvP itself works is the issue with PvP. Even fixing the cyrodiil lag and other latency issues won't help PvP much, as that would maybe draw in a handful of PvP players who left due to those reasons. But would still leave out all the PvE players as it is now. Basically making all that effort wasted.

    Umm no. Why is the burden of proof always on the PvP players? If I really wanted to PvE then I would. PvP needs to be given room to grow and be what it is, introducing anything artificial out of bias or from any non-organic, non-technical approach is going to ruin the experience. (Like when they made the detection pot radius unrealistically large. Guess someone was mad that day.)

    Its up to people to learn on their own time. Its not on any of us in PvP to train anyone. There should never be any expectation of winning or someone else having to provide PvPers with what they need. Look, I pvp frequently, for now. No one ever gave me anything and I didn't ask.

    I made my own economy and developed my own fundamental understanding, pieced together pain-stackingly and often times mocked by meta players who are being spoon-fed by other meta players who don't really know the game. All they care about is winning. If anything we need to go back to fewer meta builds and let people fight for it rather than roads or immpossible lofty expectations set.

    Less is more. I mean if they don't like it then they can just leave the server... as they say. Know what I mean? I say that because I personally would never have the nerve to demand someone 'leave the server' but I know several on here from PvP who say and do one thing over there and then come here to vent. If you feel so strongly then my advice is go back to Cyrodiil zone chat and have a real conversation with us there.
    Edited by Vulkunne on December 12, 2023 11:42AM
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    ✭✭✭✭
    Amottica wrote: »
    As for the number of sets being used, no matter what is done with gear in ESO there will always be a small number of sets to choose from for those who want to play optimally. It is a mathematical certainty. It is also a mathematical certainty that we will always have a small number of skills we will use out of the numerous ones we have available to use.

    Different sets could be meta for different classes, even as there used to be different sets meta for magicka and stamina DPS. And what if different classes were meta for different encounters, like if some enemies had some resistance to one element and weakness to another? All viable for all content but different meta for different things?

    At least I think that could be interesting, perhaps if it came with buffs to those classes that need it (necro, non-pet sorc options). I have no desire for sweeping changes, however.

    We have had that before with the DK and some fire-based sets. However, unlike many MMORPGs with incredibly restrictive builds, we are not limited to only class skills which are what is required to have any particular set be class meta.

    In other words, that enormous amount of choice we have with the skills we can choose instead of the extremely limited choices in other games is why class sets do not work well in ESO. Most of our skills are not from our class choices.

    Even then, if there were sets that became meta we would still be limited to a small number of sets since it will always be a small number of sets that provide the best performance.



  • wazzz56
    wazzz56
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    good thread, following so I can read the rest after work
    GM Tig Ole Critties ps5 NA small scale PvP guild


    "After a hard week of farming, or a long night of being nagged by your wife, there is nothing better than going out for a bit of a fish."
  • Elyu
    Elyu
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    Good to see more people continuing this discussion, and thank you OP for linking all the many threads (including my own) to support your argument.

    Just a shame all the nihilists appear as well and say "it's just the min-maxers" "it's just the pvpers" "casual players reject all this fussing" "Don't you know this is a solo pve story game" "all of your complaining has just made ZOS make changes that hurt all the playerbase" etc

    Yet as the more self-aware individuals in multiple of those threads you have linked have pointed out:

    PvE:

    Sorc: cast blue aoe dot effects and spam a spammable. click arnaments every 4 seconds
    Templar: cast yellow aoe effects dots and spam jabs +beam. click backlash every 6 seonds
    Warden: cast blue aoe dots and spam a spammable . click beetles when they are up (6/9 seconds)
    Necro: cast death themed aoe dots and spam weapon spammable. click blastbones when he decides to die
    NB: cast shadow themed aoes and spam class spammable. click grim when it is up
    DK: I dont have dk
    Arcanist: regular stuff but you cast beams too. The most unique class rn imo

    All classes wear same equipment, use same mundus, cast dots then spamm spammable. All classes' skills have standartised costs and damages. All classes are same. There is no identity other than colors and roleplay elements.

    And similar for PvP. It's slightly different visuals for exactly the same gameplay experience.
    There was an interesting comment about calls for homogenisation leading to our current souless meta, which only goes to prove the game balancing went in completely the wrong direction - rather than making classes more unique by enhancing their individual strengths they were instead balanced according to some imaginary ideal.
    And hybridisation has only made this problem worse.

    Also, OP - another thread to add to this thread - there was a post a few weeks back from a serious PvE player listing a whole load of data R.E. the DPS balance between classes in raids, which is the other side of this discussion - how to retain build diversity while maintaining balance.

    (Edited to remove an idea that derailed the discussion)
    Edited by Elyu on December 17, 2023 8:48AM
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