Endless Archive has proven…

MindOfTheSwarm

… that ZoS has the ability, time and resources to create new skill lines outside of classes. The archive is filled to the brim with unique effects that could all be translated into a ‘Hedge Mage’ style skill line with a few balance tweaks on the damage numbers. The Flame Aura verse is a good example.

I am enjoying the archive a lot but I really think it’s about time we had some new guild/world skills that don’t feel gimmicky like the Psijic line did.

Either that or at least split up the Destro staves into unique skill lines and give us a Disease based weapon. The skill options we have outside of our classes has become stale.

Shake the boat up. Give us some new toys ZoS. We’ve been very patient.

MindOfTheSwarm

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

So be it. If the skill line is cool and original I’d pay it. Arcanist was a let down IMO. It was another class that doesn’t actually open up the game. New non class skill lines are the future if ZoS wants to maintain or even regrow its player base.

emilyhyoyeon

yeah I'm a lot more into new non-class skill lines and stuff. I'm fully convinced the only reason why arcanist was even a class and not one or more black book themed skill lines (which it demonstrably suits better) was because advertising a ''new class'' is probably a lot more appealing and therefore money-making than ''new skill line.''

Kisakee

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

Is 100€ fine too? I'm more than willing to pay for good new features.

DarthCuddlefluff

My friend and I had this idea for two new weapon skill lines. One was like a book and one handed that allowed spellcasters to do some physical type damage, and one was a *very much missing from this game* spear/polearm skillline. I know they would have to model these things in, but if it costs $60.00 then I will pay it. Give us lots of options for looks. The spellbook doesn't even have to be a book, it can just be a focus. Think like the necromancer offhands from Diablo III

Jaimeh

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

I mean, do you expect them to work and offer their product for free...

On topic, the EA definitely has really cool new features, and I'm glad ZOS still has so much creativity in their encounter content.

Drammanoth

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Kisakee

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

yeah I'm a lot more into new non-class skill lines and stuff. I'm fully convinced the only reason why arcanist was even a class and not one or more black book themed skill lines (which it demonstrably suits better) was because advertising a ''new class'' is probably a lot more appealing and therefore money-making than ''new skill line.''

i would prefer it be a black book skill line. that would have been more lore friendly. def shoulda been made lke psijics skills. but a class is easier than making buncha grindy tasks so i get why its a class.

MindOfTheSwarm

Kisakee wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

People need to stop worrying about precious balance. Balance to some degree is needed yes. But if it becomes an obsession then it gets in the way of new content. Balance does not maintain a player base, new content does. They tried mixing it up with Tribute and it was a misfire ( I actually like playing it btw). But if one thing is proven time and time again in games like this, it is build variety. Gating it behind sets just gets old after a while. I admit balance is important but not at the expense of allowing things to get stale. Sometimes you need to shake things up and then deal with the aftermath as much as it might cause some initial upset.

MindOfTheSwarm

DarthCuddlefluff wrote: »

My friend and I had this idea for two new weapon skill lines. One was like a book and one handed that allowed spellcasters to do some physical type damage, and one was a *very much missing from this game* spear/polearm skillline. I know they would have to model these things in, but if it costs $60.00 then I will pay it. Give us lots of options for looks. The spellbook doesn't even have to be a book, it can just be a focus. Think like the necromancer offhands from Diablo III

I think you could ‘cheat’ if they added a Disease Staff. That way all the models already exist in game. Unarmed is also a way of getting around modelling commitments.

Personally I think Hedge Magic is the way to go.

Gate the skills behind a quest similar to the Psijic Skill line but less about fetching mats and more about finding lost spell books or killing certain monsters. I think a Witch Coven would be perfect for this, like a Reach Witch that tutors us in other magic that exits outside of established schools. A simple selection of skill that fulfils the theme while also providing additional skills that fit into the existing classes as alternative options in a rotation. Primarily focusing on damage but with optional tanking morphs and healing on one or two skills.

DMuehlhausen

Drammanoth wrote: »

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Adding all of those skills though requires tons of more balancing. You literally can have to much in a game. Also none of those are really canon in TES game. They can't have polearm then suddenly in Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim that ability is gone. While they are pretty open to do things they do have things they have to follow that match with the world that was started 30 years ago.

FantasticFreddie

Kisakee wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

They made 3 skill lines for a class that quite literally no one asked for and thematically shouldn't even be a class. It should be a quest-based skill line like Psijic, and would have tied in beautifully as such.

Surely they can handle ONE new universal skill line for the 10th anniversary? I wouldn't complain even if I don't use it

dk_dunkirk

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

People need to stop worrying about precious balance. Balance to some degree is needed yes. But if it becomes an obsession then it gets in the way of new content. Balance does not maintain a player base, new content does. They tried mixing it up with Tribute and it was a misfire ( I actually like playing it btw). But if one thing is proven time and time again in games like this, it is build variety. Gating it behind sets just gets old after a while. I admit balance is important but not at the expense of allowing things to get stale. Sometimes you need to shake things up and then deal with the aftermath as much as it might cause some initial upset.

If this game's community has demonstrated anything, it's that whatever the current meta is, everyone will gravitate to it. Just look around in the game at how many Arcanists and Oakensorcs there are compared to everything else. If they ever made a class, race, skill line, or gear set have an obviously unbalanced advantage, literally everyone would run it. I mean, if you're OK with that, great, but the Oakensorc thing is annoying me, and I main one.

DarthCuddlefluff

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

DarthCuddlefluff wrote: »

My friend and I had this idea for two new weapon skill lines. One was like a book and one handed that allowed spellcasters to do some physical type damage, and one was a *very much missing from this game* spear/polearm skillline. I know they would have to model these things in, but if it costs $60.00 then I will pay it. Give us lots of options for looks. The spellbook doesn't even have to be a book, it can just be a focus. Think like the necromancer offhands from Diablo III

I think you could ‘cheat’ if they added a Disease Staff. That way all the models already exist in game. Unarmed is also a way of getting around modelling commitments.

Personally I think Hedge Magic is the way to go.

Gate the skills behind a quest similar to the Psijic Skill line but less about fetching mats and more about finding lost spell books or killing certain monsters. I think a Witch Coven would be perfect for this, like a Reach Witch that tutors us in other magic that exits outside of established schools. A simple selection of skill that fulfils the theme while also providing additional skills that fit into the existing classes as alternative options in a rotation. Primarily focusing on damage but with optional tanking morphs and healing on one or two skills.

So what I was talking about wasn't a staff. It was melee based on magicka.

spartaxoxo

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

People need to stop worrying about precious balance. Balance to some degree is needed yes. But if it becomes an obsession then it gets in the way of new content. Balance does not maintain a player base, new content does. They tried mixing it up with Tribute and it was a misfire ( I actually like playing it btw). But if one thing is proven time and time again in games like this, it is build variety. Gating it behind sets just gets old after a while. I admit balance is important but not at the expense of allowing things to get stale. Sometimes you need to shake things up and then deal with the aftermath as much as it might cause some initial upset.

If this game's community has demonstrated anything, it's that whatever the current meta is, everyone will gravitate to it. Just look around in the game at how many Arcanists and Oakensorcs there are compared to everything else. If they ever made a class, race, skill line, or gear set have an obviously unbalanced advantage, literally everyone would run it. I mean, if you're OK with that, great, but the Oakensorc thing is annoying me, and I main one.

Oakensorc isn't being run because it's the best setup. It's being run because people don't want to light attack weave, but still want decent damage.

There are better setups.

Kisakee

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

They made 3 skill lines for a class that quite literally no one asked for and thematically shouldn't even be a class. It should be a quest-based skill line like Psijic, and would have tied in beautifully as such.

Surely they can handle ONE new universal skill line for the 10th anniversary? I wouldn't complain even if I don't use it

People wanted a new class for years now and just because you don't like it being a new class doesn't mean everyone thinks the same. I love the Arcanist and it feels extremely good balanced to the point where i wish other classes would get the same love. Making a new class is also way easier as they don't have to think so much about what a skill line for all classes could probably cause for problems balance wise.

ArchMikem

Jaimeh wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

I mean, do you expect them to work and offer their product for free...

On topic, the EA definitely has really cool new features, and I'm glad ZOS still has so much creativity in their encounter content.

I'd expect the price of a single skill line to be like, at very most $20, if we're being serious.

Dr_Con

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

Tandor

Drammanoth wrote: »

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Are you sure they wouldn't just ask for skill line tokens?

I know that's being cynical, and they could just switch skill points, but my concern is that a lot of today's players don't want to be hooked up for years, they just want to have new stuff for free and instantly achieved, after which they can just complain some more about the game dying.

FantasticFreddie

Kisakee wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

This would REALLY hook people up for years.

...and would just create another nightmare to balance. There are pretty good reasons why they haven't done that by now and it will be tons of work to create even a single new skill line. Plus the outcry of people who dislike the weapon / fighting style chosen as you can't cater to everyone at the same time.

They made 3 skill lines for a class that quite literally no one asked for and thematically shouldn't even be a class. It should be a quest-based skill line like Psijic, and would have tied in beautifully as such.

Surely they can handle ONE new universal skill line for the 10th anniversary? I wouldn't complain even if I don't use it

People wanted a new class for years now and just because you don't like it being a new class doesn't mean everyone thinks the same. I love the Arcanist and it feels extremely good balanced to the point where i wish other classes would get the same love. Making a new class is also way easier as they don't have to think so much about what a skill line for all classes could probably cause for problems balance wise.

Oh I've been looking forward to a new class too but I think arcanist missed the mark, both from a practical and thematic standpoint.

And as far as balance-- I won't speak too much of it in pvp, as I haven't been in pvp much since it's dropped but I DO still see a plenty of other wardens, dks, nightblades, and sorcs in pvp so I think it might be decently balanced, but pve? Pve is 6 arcanists and 2 support dds, and the arcanists annihilate the competition. They are incredibly strong, and thanks to the velothi mythic, they are dead easy and don't require LA weaving to get that damage. It's HA sorc on crack.

tsaescishoeshiner

I don't think EA proves this at all, because non-class skill lines change the balance for the rest of the game, PvE and PvP. The EA abilities only impact what's inside EA.

But each new skill line adds to ongoing workload to keep everything balanced. Unless they do it like Psijic, where 3 of the skills are barely ever used because they're niche or had to be nerfed for balance, like Time Stop did.

I'm sure we'll get another skill line at some point, but I'd rather more options and features within the weapon, class, and guild skill lines we already have. There are some cool assets in EA for sure.

CGPsaint

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

And in keeping with tradition, the new skill line would be insanely OP for a few months before inevitably being nerfed into the ground once the influx of cash tapers down to a trickle.

IZZEFlameLash

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

'Inflation hit us hard, so it will be $70-100 to keep us afloat' would be more likely lol

Warhawke_80

Not

Dekrypted wrote: »

That'll be 60 dollars, please.

Which I'll gladly pay because I have had fun every single day I've played this game and quite frankly I can't wait to see what's next.

Amottica

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Adding all of those skills though requires tons of more balancing. You literally can have to much in a game. Also none of those are really canon in TES game. They can't have polearm then suddenly in Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim that ability is gone. While they are pretty open to do things they do have things they have to follow that match with the world that was started 30 years ago.

I agree. ESO borders, if not crosses the border, of having too much choice. That is why balancing is so much of a challenge. It is also part of the reason why there is a huge spread between the range of DPS in this game.

DarthCuddlefluff

Amottica wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Adding all of those skills though requires tons of more balancing. You literally can have to much in a game. Also none of those are really canon in TES game. They can't have polearm then suddenly in Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim that ability is gone. While they are pretty open to do things they do have things they have to follow that match with the world that was started 30 years ago.

I agree. ESO borders, if not crosses the border, of having too much choice. That is why balancing is so much of a challenge. It is also part of the reason why there is a huge spread between the range of DPS in this game.

Honestly balancing a weapons skill line seems like a lot less work than balancing, say, a new deck in ToT or a new class.

DarthCuddlefluff

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Adding all of those skills though requires tons of more balancing. You literally can have to much in a game. Also none of those are really canon in TES game. They can't have polearm then suddenly in Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim that ability is gone. While they are pretty open to do things they do have things they have to follow that match with the world that was started 30 years ago.

So hand to hand and polearms were in previous TES games and even if they weren't there is nothing wrong with adding something new. It always baffles me how people are utterly shook by the idea of new content in a series, let alone in an MMO that has introduced most new content to TES in general.

BXR_Lonestar

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

… that ZoS has the ability, time and resources to create new skill lines outside of classes. The archive is filled to the brim with unique effects that could all be translated into a ‘Hedge Mage’ style skill line with a few balance tweaks on the damage numbers. The Flame Aura verse is a good example.

I am enjoying the archive a lot but I really think it’s about time we had some new guild/world skills that don’t feel gimmicky like the Psijic line did.

Either that or at least split up the Destro staves into unique skill lines and give us a Disease based weapon. The skill options we have outside of our classes has become stale.

Shake the boat up. Give us some new toys ZoS. We’ve been very patient.

Look at the big picture. EA verses could possibly be a live in-game testbed for potential bonuses that could be applied for later sets or skills

MindOfTheSwarm

Tandor wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

No one expects ZOS to work for free, and let's face it, we DO pay.

But haven't the skill lines - their number - become... stagnant? Again, crossbows, polearms, hand to hand / unarmed, some adventure guild where you increase your chances to harvest some rare alchemical ingredients, eg. Torchbug Thorax, Chaurus Eggs, etc. This would REALLY hook people up for years.

Are you sure they wouldn't just ask for skill line tokens?

I know that's being cynical, and they could just switch skill points, but my concern is that a lot of today's players don't want to be hooked up for years, they just want to have new stuff for free and instantly achieved, after which they can just complain some more about the game dying.

There is a way around that.

Simply have a plan that spreads the content over a year in its 4 seasonal patches.

Example:

New Expansion is announced Solstheim let’s say.

1st Quarter:
2 New Dungeons
2 Monster Sets
6 Dungeon Sets

2nd Quarter:
2 New Dungeons
2 Monster Sets
6 Dungeon Sets
Destruction Staff Skill Lines are reworked and separated into their own skill line

3rd Quarter:
Solstheim Chapter part 1
3 Overland Sets
1 Mythic
1 Trial or Arena
Hedge Mage or “other’ Skill Line released

4th Quarter:
Solstheim Chapter part 2
1 Mythic
Magic/Disease staff or other weapon skill line is released.


This way you spread out the release of skills over a year allowing for more time to balance out each release as it comes. Also, this would equate to about the same as a class in terms of skills released but allow current classes to benefit. I would throw money at ZoS for an expansion that did this.

MindOfTheSwarm

Alternatively you could ditch sets completely and replace them with books or pages that are found in the dungeons that can then be later translated into spells for the new skill line.