Tank buster set for PVP

grzes848909

OK, so the troll tanks are becoming more and more of a problem now, everyday I see more of them everywhere in pvp: Cyrodil, Imperial City and battlegrounds, all have this issue. You know who I'm talking about, that one necromancer, warden or dragonknight with 45-60k hp named ''lord maximus'' or ''I eat lead for breakfast'', perma blockking, standing on important objective vital to the game and stalling the entire game to a snail pace. Unlike other problems, the troll tanks, the most popular solution I heard from all players is to ''run away'', but what do you do when he stands on an important objective while tanking 5-10 guys ? Nothing... Maybe a staring contest or use magnum arrow to push him for 3 seconds before he comes back. That's the problem, like, if you got a zerg you can have a bomb build to deal with it. If you have got an annoying sorc or nightblade being too quick or sneaky, you can have a stamina sorc chase them and act like a hounddog, but troll tanks ? ''Just don't bother'' said most people I asked.
I'm not asking for any nerfs to tanks or buffs for dps players but a tool, a specialised set or weapon or anything specifically made for tank busting and nothing else. I have one idea where you have a set that causes 2 instances of damage. The first one deals pitiful damage, BUT the lower % of health taken from the opponent by the initial strike, the higher second instance is going to be, so for example, if you deal only 0.2% health to a troll tank, the second instance of damage will deal a lot of dmg like 10k or 15k dmg but if you take 3% of health against someone with initial strike on someone with normal amount of health like 25k the second instance will only deal 1-2k only, also the set should also have some sort of downsides to balance it, like for instance it would lower your health or regen or anything to make tanks not feel too powerless, make the tank buster easier to be killed so tanks still have a chance to fight. Another thing, the second strike should still intereact with stuff like spell/weapon damage, penetration and magickas/stamina as to prevent players abusing it by specifically lowering their dmg output. The only way to increase the second strike is to increase your overall damage like normal and/or making your opponent tankier. And most importantly, make it only pvp against players. I know such a set would be beyond OP in pve so make the set's dmg work only on enemy players.

SkaraMinoc

I'm looking forward to using enemy block to build 20 stacks of Shell Splitter.



Shell Splitter 2-4pc: 4461 penetration
Shell Splitter 5pc 20 stacks: 12620 penetration
The Lover: 2744 penetration
Sharpened (1H): 1638 penetration
Major Breach: 5948 penetration

Total: 27411 penetration

That doesn't include Minor Breach, Crushing, Blue CP, weapon/armor passives, etc. It's very likely that enemy resistance will be 0 for you. If the rest of your build is focused on increasing damage then Shell Splitter is going to make you hit very hard against non-blocking players. The natural reaction is to block which will refresh the duration on 20 stacks.

Math Time

To simplify the calculations, let's look at No CP with 17081 penetration from Shell Splitter using a 10000 damage spammable.

33k armor player with Major+Minor Protection and 7 heavy blocking a Physical spammable with 75% block mitigation.

10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((33000/660)/100)) * (1-(75/100)) = 494
10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((15919/660)/100)) * (1-(75/100)) = 749 (Shell Splitter gives 51% damage)

The same player as above but not blocking:

10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((33000/660)/100)) = 1976
10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((15919/660)/100)) = 2999 (Shell Splitter gives 51% damage)

20k armor player in 1 heavy 6 medium with Minor Protection taking damage from a Physical spammable.

10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(1/100)) * (1-(5/100)) * (1-((20000/660)/100)) = 3277
10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(1/100)) * (1-(5/100)) * (1-((2919/660)/100)) = 4494 (Shell Splitter gives 37% damage)

For comparison, the best PvP damage sets only give 10-15% damage.

grzes848909

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I'm looking forward to using enemy block to build 20 stacks of Shell Splitter.



Shell Splitter 2-4pc: 4461 penetration
Shell Splitter 5pc 20 stacks: 12620 penetration
The Lover: 2744 penetration
Sharpened (1H): 1638 penetration
Major Breach: 5948 penetration

Total: 27411 penetration

That doesn't include Minor Breach, Crushing, Blue CP, weapon/armor passives, etc. It's very likely that enemy resistance will be 0 for you. If the rest of your build is focused on increasing damage then Shell Splitter is going to make you hit very hard against non-blocking players. The natural reaction is to block which will refresh the duration on 20 stacks.

Let's assume you manage to reach 33000 offensive penetration when fighting a player with 33000 resist. The damage mitigation formula states that this is equivalent to double damage.

Math Time

To simplify the calculations, let's look at No CP.

33k armor player with Major+Minor Protection and 7 heavy blocking a Physical spammable with 75% block mitigation.

10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((33000/660)/100)) * (1-(75/100)) = 494
10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((0/660)/100)) * (1-(75/100)) = 988 (100% damage with Shell Splitter)

The same player as above but not blocking:

10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((33000/660)/100)) = 1976
10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(7/100)) * (1-(15/100)) * (1-((0/660)/100)) = 3952 (100% damage with Shell Splitter)

To reach double damage, the equivalent weapon/spell damage with a single set is roughly 5000 to 10000 based on coefficients. This is unachievable which highlights how strong Shell Splitter is and offensive penetration in general.

It's not always double damage. If you're overpenetrating with Shell Splitter then the final damage modifier goes down.

20k armor player in 1 heavy 6 medium with Minor Protection taking damage from a Physical spammable.

10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(1/100)) * (1-(5/100)) * (1-((20000/660)/100)) = 3277
10000 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(1/100)) * (1-(5/100)) * (1-((0/660)/100)) = 4702 (43.4% damage with Shell Splitter)

If you've made it this far, my bash build has a 5400 tooltip damage in Battlegrounds without a second 5 piece set. If I add Shell Splitter,

5400 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(1/100)) * (1-(5/100)) * (1-((20000/660)/100)) = 1769 bash
5400 * (1-(50/100)) * (1-(1/100)) * (1-(5/100)) * (1-((0/660)/100)) = 2539 bash (with Shell Splitter)

From experience, I can tell you a 2539 bash non-crit hits hard considering it's twice a second while weaving a 5k Power Slam.

Me too, didn't even notice that are already planning on adding such set already. I though of something too, do you think it will work with 3 instances of dmg from force pulse ? I was thinking now that if all 3 instances of dmg count individualy then you could stack 20 stacks really quick. Is it on PTS already, could you test it ?

SkaraMinoc

grzes848909 wrote: »

Me too, didn't even notice that are already planning on adding such set already. I though of something too, do you think it will work with 3 instances of dmg from force pulse ? I was thinking now that if all 3 instances of dmg count individualy then you could stack 20 stacks really quick. Is it on PTS already, could you test it ?

Have not tested Shell Splitter with Force Pulse.

It would be a bug if the stacks were generated faster than 0.5 seconds as mentioned in the set description. They would fix it.

Also, I updated my previous reply so your quote is outdated and the math is incorrect. In case anyone reads it.

Neoauspex

If the regen sapping sets were just a little more effective then that sort of a build would be a good counter for perma block tanks. But right now they all suck.

master_vanargand

The unpopularity of PvP 1v1 duel is due to unkillable tank.
DPS builds can't kill tank, but tank can kill DPS builds.
When tank fight tank, it won't end even after 10 billion years.
ESO's PvP has no game balance and is messed up.

Caribou77

Love this new set. With this game, there will always be a niche build or play style that exploits certain objectives, whether it’s the ubertank holding block on a flag, or the bow ganker who sits up in safety of the base in bgs plunking away, or the guy that spams mist form any time you turn to hit him. Too bad they can’t design human nature out of the game.

Ender1310

Uber tanks are part of play like you want. Want to be heroic, the game allows this with the trade off they can’t kill as quickly as a dps. Why do you see so much wrong with it? Because they’re build that they made for a specific objective blocks your build that allows you to push most objectives? Yeah run away, or ZOS should force you to change your build so you are good against tanks and no one else, and bad at other objectives. That would be balance.

SkaraMinoc

Shell Splitter is useless due to the 5 second duration and how difficult it is to build stacks in the first place. You're better off running 5pc Shattered Fate 7918 offensive penetration. Or even better, pretend tanky players don't exist and run past them. Half of Cyrodiil players can be ignored as they dip way too far into defense and lack any meaningful offense.

Solariken

Some small combat adjustments could help, such as

- Buff Major/Minor Defile to 20%/10%
- Add a ramping block cost debuff to Battle Spirit

Both of those would help check healers in PvP too.

But ZOS will turn a deaf ear to all pleas for balance or sensible game design. They drink our tears and laugh.

etchedpixels

As someone who troll tanks now and then the comment above on ignoring them is bang on. Apart from when they are doing stuff like wading in and setting siege on fire to wind people up the best thing to do with a troll tank is the same as with a sorc playing streak round and round the hill - ignore it. If there are any heals around or you've got any sane amount of defense the troll tank can slap you all day and you won't actually take any meaningful damage.

Shell splitter changes little and Arcanist has added even more damage shields to the mix as well so will make the troll tanks more unkillable.

ZOS_Phoenix

Greetings,

After review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic (PVP Combat & Skills, as this thread is related to PVP).

Thank you for your understanding.

Udrath

Way back when with the old old sergants mail and knights slayer, I was chunking necro form/high hp targets with heavy attacks. Like 3-4 heavies was enough to bring them 25% hp. Knight slayer is pretty decent but idk if it still double procs off DW anymore.

Maybe infused heartland conqueror with oblivion weapon glyphs might work, but that’s just me guessing something

HidesInPlainSight

Every tank can be killed. The amount of unkillable tanks Ive killed in IC, is every single one Ive come across. Not a single tank can survive a PvE rotation.

You just need skills that tic multiple times per use.

pokrakus

master_vanargand wrote: »

The unpopularity of PvP 1v1 duel is due to unkillable tank.
DPS builds can't kill tank, but tank can kill DPS builds.
When tank fight tank, it won't end even after 10 billion years.
ESO's PvP has no game balance and is messed up.

The unpopularity of PvP is because of NB ganking ppl from stealth and its main reason for so many Tanks. For me its not the problem at all. If u cant kill it ignore it, move to another target or objective. Most TRUE tanks cant kill.
Some ppl like to play stealthy NB and insta kill ppl, others like to play immortal who cant kill anybody. OFC tank can kill dps but only if dps player burn all his resources spaming abilities on blocking tank....