The excuses for no pvp content are getting old

Urvoth

In every interview and livestream since 2019, ZOS has given the same few lines of excuses as to why they can’t add new pvp content, “we want to fix performance first,” “new content would only make the issues worse,” etc., but it’s been 4 years and the rhetoric isn’t working anymore. While initially believable, now it just comes across as the devs wanting to shove pvp into a corner and forget about it. BGs don’t really have performance issues so why not add content to them at least? Instead, ZOS has periodically stripped BGs down more and more until now they’re a shadow of what they used to be. Here’s some things ZOS could’ve added that would have minimal to 0 impact on performance if they cared about pvp:
1) New BG maps
2) Periodic updates to the Cyro/IC map (think removing a town to put a crater there from a meteor, etc.)
3) Battlepass with reward track for skins, titles, etc.
4) Lobby system so friends/guilds/event hosts could setup private BG matches
5) Group duels
6) 2 Team BGs (think 6v6 with obj vs 4v4v4)
7) BG items added to the housing editor (spawn points, flags, chaos ball, etc., so people could make custom arenas in their house)
8) 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, arenas
9) Ranked gameplay or better leaderboards in general
10) FFA open world “faction” that can fight everyone not in their own group (call them outlaws, marauders, etc.)

In general, instanced pvp works perfectly fine so it’s ridiculous that it has been ignored with the “performance” excuse.

CameraBeardThePirate

They've been kicking the metaphorical can down the road since the last BG map was added years ago. It's time to stop pushing it off and time to start investing in their PvP system (a system which, if I might add, is extremely fun and unique, and would flourish with just a little bit of TLC)

Elsonso

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

They've been kicking the metaphorical can down the road since the last BG map was added years ago. It's time to stop pushing it off and time to start investing in their PvP system (a system which, if I might add, is extremely fun and unique, and would flourish with just a little bit of TLC)

I do wish they would update us on the server performance work rollout schedule. At the AMA they were asked about new PVP content and mentioned the server replacement work, but no one asked about how the schedule with the server performance work was going.

Four_Fingers

I keep dreading the day they announce that they are no longer supporting PvP in the game as we know it.
The lack of support may be the handwriting on the wall, hope I am wrong.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Here is an idea that could spice up PvP

For Cyrodiil Werewolf Behemoth this would function as an alternative to Volendrung, a strange NPC will appear in one of the towns who will transform into a Behemoth when approached and will drop a potion of the Behemoth when they are killed, this potion will last for 20 minutes and give the player the same form seen in Stone Garden.

For the Imperial City The Labyrinth would be an area of the IC sewer that can only be accessed from the center, it would be styled as an Ayleid Ruin and in this area you will not beable to revive here and must port back to your base, this would serve as a Hardcore PvP area and would be full of traps that players can activate to kill each-other, naturally there would be rare and expensive items that could drop here such as a chance when killing enemies to get gold jewelry.

DMuehlhausen

PvP is an addon at best at this point. Don't expect it to ever get much attention thankfully.

Elsonso

Four_Fingers wrote: »

I keep dreading the day they announce that they are no longer supporting PvP in the game as we know it.
The lack of support may be the handwriting on the wall, hope I am wrong.

I have often advocated that PVP (Cyrodiil) in this game is a "hobby" and not something to be taken seriously. Serious MMO PVP players will find more fun elsewhere and people who want to PVP here, particularly in Cyrodiil, need to accept certain limitations. Even with that, if ZOS can pull off the performance changes that they have yet to start rolling out, they may actually be able to change my mind.

As for what the developers think, Nefas seems to sum that up quite nicely:

It should be noted that contrary to popular belief amongst players, developers including Brian Wheeler really do want to add more things for PvP'ers and PvP systems in general however until at least the new server hardware replacement and other performance adjustments go through, ZOS is wary of trying to add more things to the game that may cause performance breakdowns.

Four_Fingers

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

PvP is an addon at best at this point. Don't expect it to ever get much attention thankfully.

Well probably why I have not renewed several of my ESO plus subs and thinking about canceling my last one.
Your love of PvP is noted. lol

Four_Fingers

Elsonso wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

I keep dreading the day they announce that they are no longer supporting PvP in the game as we know it.
The lack of support may be the handwriting on the wall, hope I am wrong.

I have often advocated that PVP (Cyrodiil) in this game is a "hobby" and not something to be taken seriously. Serious MMO PVP players will find more fun elsewhere and people who want to PVP here, particularly in Cyrodiil, need to accept certain limitations. Even with that, if ZOS can pull off the performance changes that they have yet to start rolling out, they may actually be able to change my mind.

As for what the developers think, Nefas seems to sum that up quite nicely:

It should be noted that contrary to popular belief amongst players, developers including Brian Wheeler really do want to add more things for PvP'ers and PvP systems in general however until at least the new server hardware replacement and other performance adjustments go through, ZOS is wary of trying to add more things to the game that may cause performance breakdowns.

You hit the nail on the head all games should be taken as a hobby both PvP and PvE.

SaffronCitrusflower

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

PvP is an addon at best at this point. Don't expect it to ever get much attention thankfully.

Please stop with the "I hate PvP so it's good ZOS isn't supporting it" comments.

Remember this?

SaffronCitrusflower

It's extremely frustrating that ZOS keeps scaling back cyrodiil PvP rather than working to expand it even a little bit. Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

I think it's time for a year of no PvE expansion and just PvP attention to balance things out and bring the PvP side of ESO a little bit back towards what it was like in it's hayday. We have more than enough, too much even, casual questing availability in ESO.

ZOS gets away with neglecting PvP like they do because the PvP players tend to be the most die hard players ESO has and we tend to stick around despite the neglect. My friends list only has a few players left on it that PvP now. Almost everyone has left the game due to neglecting Cyrodiil. It's really sad.

Marcus684

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

It's extremely frustrating that ZOS keeps scaling back cyrodiil PvP rather than working to expand it even a little bit. Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

I think it's time for a year of no PvE expansion and just PvP attention to balance things out and bring the PvP side of ESO a little bit back towards what it was like in it's hayday. We have more than enough, too much even, casual questing availability in ESO.

ZOS gets away with neglecting PvP like they do because the PvP players tend to be the most die hard players ESO has and we tend to stick around despite the neglect. My friends list only has a few players left on it that PvP now. Almost everyone has left the game due to neglecting Cyrodiil. It's really sad.

No need to drive another wedge between PvE and PvP players as there's too many people that do this already.

Neglecting to add new PvE content is the surest way to kill the title. ZOS needs to continue to improve server performance while also putting out new content in PvE. I happen to agree with their stance that new PvP content needs to wait until the servers can handle what's already in the game. Like most people I'm getting impatient for this, but the alternative is worse. I remember the bad times when the game would turn into a slide show for everyone if even 50 people showed up at the same battle. Things are somewhat better now but there's still a ways to go.

CameraBeardThePirate

Marcus684 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

It's extremely frustrating that ZOS keeps scaling back cyrodiil PvP rather than working to expand it even a little bit. Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

I think it's time for a year of no PvE expansion and just PvP attention to balance things out and bring the PvP side of ESO a little bit back towards what it was like in it's hayday. We have more than enough, too much even, casual questing availability in ESO.

ZOS gets away with neglecting PvP like they do because the PvP players tend to be the most die hard players ESO has and we tend to stick around despite the neglect. My friends list only has a few players left on it that PvP now. Almost everyone has left the game due to neglecting Cyrodiil. It's really sad.

No need to drive another wedge between PvE and PvP players as there's too many people that do this already.

Neglecting to add new PvE content is the surest way to kill the title. ZOS needs to continue to improve server performance while also putting out new content in PvE. I happen to agree with their stance that new PvP content needs to wait until the servers can handle what's already in the game. Like most people I'm getting impatient for this, but the alternative is worse. I remember the bad times when the game would turn into a slide show for everyone if even 50 people showed up at the same battle. Things are somewhat better now but there's still a ways to go.

But again, as Urvoth said, performance issues are largely localized to Cyrodiil. There's no reason small things like extra rewards, a battle pass-like system, a new BG map, or IC tweaks couldn't have been implemented - none of those things are performance dependent. BGs almost never have performance issues, and IC only has issues when Double TelVar is running.

Veinblood1965

There is new PVP content all the time.

A new OP set or Mythic is introduced with each new expansion.
It is then "enhanced" to the point of being useless.
Another is introduced.

This is the way.

Olen_Mikko

No big secret, but pvp is only a liability to Zos, they can't monetize it so why bother.

Zos would only be relieved if Cyro would be completely empty.

Four_Fingers

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

No big secret, but pvp is only a liability to Zos, they can't monetize it so why bother.

Zos would only be relieved if Cyro would be completely empty.

Not true PvP players sub and buy things in crown store, and we have to buy the same chapters as PvE players if we want items like sets and mythics from them.

thesarahandcompany

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

No big secret, but pvp is only a liability to Zos, they can't monetize it so why bother.

Zos would only be relieved if Cyro would be completely empty.

This is just simply not even true and an intellectually dishonest argument. The most popular game on steam is a PVP game. Battle passes are money makers. People will pay for them for skins to do PVP. There's tested models that exist.

VaranisArano

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

No big secret, but pvp is only a liability to Zos, they can't monetize it so why bother.

That's not really true, you know?

PVP isn't as highly monetized as overland PVE zones sold with direct $$$ prices, but hardcore PvP players are just as meta driven as PvE trial players. They'll buy the race change tokens, the skill line tokens, the skyshard packs, the mount training packs, and the QOL stuff that goes into making new characters to play in PVP.

If you think PVP players don't buy Chapters and DLC for the new mythic items, skills, and classes, again, you're mistaken. There's the obvious mythics aimed at PvPers, but also think about something like Snowtreaders where an entire guild group can wear it to be immune to snares.

And that's not even considering how ZOS makes money off the avoidance of PVP. Every player who buys the Alliance War Skyshards to avoid going to Cyrodiil again, every player who buys the Alliance War skill line rather than do PVP again, and especially every player who buys Event tickets during Whitestrake's Mayhem only adds to the effective monetization of PVP.

Marcus684

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

It's extremely frustrating that ZOS keeps scaling back cyrodiil PvP rather than working to expand it even a little bit. Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

I think it's time for a year of no PvE expansion and just PvP attention to balance things out and bring the PvP side of ESO a little bit back towards what it was like in it's hayday. We have more than enough, too much even, casual questing availability in ESO.

ZOS gets away with neglecting PvP like they do because the PvP players tend to be the most die hard players ESO has and we tend to stick around despite the neglect. My friends list only has a few players left on it that PvP now. Almost everyone has left the game due to neglecting Cyrodiil. It's really sad.

No need to drive another wedge between PvE and PvP players as there's too many people that do this already.

Neglecting to add new PvE content is the surest way to kill the title. ZOS needs to continue to improve server performance while also putting out new content in PvE. I happen to agree with their stance that new PvP content needs to wait until the servers can handle what's already in the game. Like most people I'm getting impatient for this, but the alternative is worse. I remember the bad times when the game would turn into a slide show for everyone if even 50 people showed up at the same battle. Things are somewhat better now but there's still a ways to go.

But again, as Urvoth said, performance issues are largely localized to Cyrodiil. There's no reason small things like extra rewards, a battle pass-like system, a new BG map, or IC tweaks couldn't have been implemented - none of those things are performance dependent. BGs almost never have performance issues, and IC only has issues when Double TelVar is running.

Performance issues aren't limited to Cyrodiil, they're just most prominent there. Ever been in a trial where the game starts to lag? I've even experienced lag-related issues in 4-man dungeons occasionally. Cyrodiil is just the place with the highest concentration of players in one location, along with PvP-only effects like siege and the hammer.

Anything Alliance War-related that ZOS adds to the game before sorting out the performance issues is only going to exacerbate the problem and drive even more players away. I guess they could roll out some new BG maps or tweak IC but honestly why would they? From what I've seen interest in them is so low that's they probably don't see it as worth the cost.

CameraBeardThePirate

Marcus684 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

It's extremely frustrating that ZOS keeps scaling back cyrodiil PvP rather than working to expand it even a little bit. Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

I think it's time for a year of no PvE expansion and just PvP attention to balance things out and bring the PvP side of ESO a little bit back towards what it was like in it's hayday. We have more than enough, too much even, casual questing availability in ESO.

ZOS gets away with neglecting PvP like they do because the PvP players tend to be the most die hard players ESO has and we tend to stick around despite the neglect. My friends list only has a few players left on it that PvP now. Almost everyone has left the game due to neglecting Cyrodiil. It's really sad.

No need to drive another wedge between PvE and PvP players as there's too many people that do this already.

Neglecting to add new PvE content is the surest way to kill the title. ZOS needs to continue to improve server performance while also putting out new content in PvE. I happen to agree with their stance that new PvP content needs to wait until the servers can handle what's already in the game. Like most people I'm getting impatient for this, but the alternative is worse. I remember the bad times when the game would turn into a slide show for everyone if even 50 people showed up at the same battle. Things are somewhat better now but there's still a ways to go.

But again, as Urvoth said, performance issues are largely localized to Cyrodiil. There's no reason small things like extra rewards, a battle pass-like system, a new BG map, or IC tweaks couldn't have been implemented - none of those things are performance dependent. BGs almost never have performance issues, and IC only has issues when Double TelVar is running.

Performance issues aren't limited to Cyrodiil, they're just most prominent there. Ever been in a trial where the game starts to lag? I've even experienced lag-related issues in 4-man dungeons occasionally. Cyrodiil is just the place with the highest concentration of players in one location, along with PvP-only effects like siege and the hammer.

Anything Alliance War-related that ZOS adds to the game before sorting out the performance issues is only going to exacerbate the problem and drive even more players away. I guess they could roll out some new BG maps or tweak IC but honestly why would they? From what I've seen interest in them is so low that's they probably don't see it as worth the cost.

Claiming that interest is low in BGs and IC is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy though: if either of those got an ounce of developer attention they'd likely be much more popular.

Tandor

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

How many more ball groups do you want?

Carlos93

Modifications I would do in PVP Cyrodiil.

1. Take Cyrodiil PVP off the Tamriel PVE map.
The PVE and PVP maps would be separate.
There would be two independent maps (a Cyrodiil map for PVP and another Tamriel map for PVE).

2. Add "war events".

An example of the war events:

Supply wagons travel the roads of Cyrodiil escorted by garrisons of soldiers from the other factions (The Daggerfall Covenant, The Aldmeri Dominion, The Ebonheart Pact).
Players can raid these supply wagons, defeat the garrison escorting the wagon, and take the wagon to one of their faction-controlled strongholds.
Players escorting the wagons will be rewarded with alliance points, resources, gold, etc.

3. Split the current Cyrodiil PVP map into more PVP maps to be added to the game in the future.
These maps would be connected by roads and bridges similar to how the Tamriel PVE maps are connected.



These would be the initial zones of each alliance added base game.
In future DLCs new maps with new zones and PVP cities would be added (Bruma, Chorrol, Skingrad, Bravil, Cheydinhal).

Add several snow biome maps along the Skyrim border, several thick forest biome maps along the Valenwood border, and several desert biome maps along the Elsweyr border.

4. Reform all the big cities in Cyrodiil PVP to be conquerable cities in the same way that the Imperial city is.

The Imperial city map would be one of these PVP maps that make up PVP Cyrodiil.

FluffWit

They haven't bothered renaming the pvp campaigns for close to 3 years now. Why? Obviously I dont know but I'd imagine it simply comes down to "we forgot".

Roztlin45

tyfg

CameraBeardThePirate

Roztlin45 wrote: »

The funny thing is gear intended for PVE is nerfed due to PVP. It seems like they have no idea how to balance the game. It has been suggested many times to have some gear PVE only. That would help to balance the game without breaking it.

And as far as PVP content, I think Zos is about marketing, not developing. Don't get me wrong, I want the game to make money after all that is how we have a game. However, it would be nice if they had official ZOS players on the live server that actually loved playing the game as we do.

Being out of touch with the player base and customers, in general, has brought us to this point. When the sparkle of the new chapter wears off, where is the substance? Quality of time and entertainment value is lost.

Pay players to give REAL feedback anonymously and stop listening to streamers just marketing themselves to a lesser degree.

They do have gear that's PvE only, and they do have gear that's PvP only; they always have.

PvE only sets include Bahseis, and all Empower/Heavy Attack sets.

PvP only sets include things like Potentates, Marksman's, and now, Plaguebreak.

BardokRedSnow

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

No big secret, but pvp is only a liability to Zos, they can't monetize it so why bother.

Zos would only be relieved if Cyro would be completely empty.

Where in Shor's name does this fallacy come from.

Of course they can monetize it, they monetize everything else.

They added a whole motif behind tel var in IC, they can add more. Much more. Add maps inspired by the new zones, add pvp titles earnable inspired by the new zones, add more quests even in cyrodiil from npcs inspired by the new zones.

Ima regret saying this but you really wanna spice *** up lol add new daedric artifacts inspired by the new zones and new furnishings etc from that too. There's a whole lot they can add in and out the crown store based on the dlc for pve and pvp. I dont think anyone would be upset if we got new maps for pvp besides cyrodiil, like a dlc only/eso plus only accessible large scale pvp area. Then they could raise the population caps on cyrodiil as theyd be split between the two.

More siege weapons too. In fact you could say they have in fact, monetized pvp already. They've just not done it nearly enough.

Aardappelboom

Urvoth wrote: »

In every interview and livestream since 2019, ZOS has given the same few lines of excuses as to why they can’t add new pvp content, “we want to fix performance first,” “new content would only make the issues worse,” etc., but it’s been 4 years and the rhetoric isn’t working anymore. While initially believable, now it just comes across as the devs wanting to shove pvp into a corner and forget about it. BGs don’t really have performance issues so why not add content to them at least? Instead, ZOS has periodically stripped BGs down more and more until now they’re a shadow of what they used to be. Here’s some things ZOS could’ve added that would have minimal to 0 impact on performance if they cared about pvp:
1) New BG maps
2) Periodic updates to the Cyro/IC map (think removing a town to put a crater there from a meteor, etc.)
3) Battlepass with reward track for skins, titles, etc.
4) Lobby system so friends/guilds/event hosts could setup private BG matches
5) Group duels
6) 2 Team BGs (think 6v6 with obj vs 4v4v4)
7) BG items added to the housing editor (spawn points, flags, chaos ball, etc., so people could make custom arenas in their house)
8) 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, arenas
9) Ranked gameplay or better leaderboards in general
10) FFA open world “faction” that can fight everyone not in their own group (call them outlaws, marauders, etc.)

In general, instanced pvp works perfectly fine so it’s ridiculous that it has been ignored with the “performance” excuse.

I can only agree at this point, I don't have a problem with the excuse necessarily but, if that's the problem, than at least talk (more) about progress on a solution.

As expected there are a few threads that ask for progress on the server-side code. The AMA answer, combined with the end of the year letter which stated the rewrite would trickle in around q2 and the lack of info on this project in the patch notes is confusing communication.

@ZOS_Kevin

VaranisArano

Tandor wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Population caps in Cyro used to be over 400/faction. Now they are clear down to 80-100/faction. That's just too little population for Cyrodiil.

How many more ball groups do you want?

Ironically, ball groups were a lot easier to counter when the main campaign had a couple PUG raids to fight them.

At least on PC/NA, we had Army of the Pact for a while. Yeah, it was zerging at its finest. But it does make a genuine difference when PUGs have a leader and someone who can direct them when and where to attack. It makes a difference when players have a Crown to encourage them to stick together and maybe even think about playing a healer for raid night, and so on.

A lesser benefit was that while the zerg was occupied, some of the PVP guild ball groups would spread out to hit other objectives away from the main zerg and not just in the sense of "we're gonna farm in Brindle for hours."

Of course, those were the days when we had 24 player raids, so maybe it wouldn't have the same impact now. But I can hope.

jtm1018

[snip]

like beating an old horse to death,

that's eso pvp for you.

[edited for inappropriate content]

Somber97866

They just made you your own special pvp class in the arcanist and your gonna grip about no pvp content? Sheesh what do you pvp'ers want? Really !

SeaGtGruff

I disagree that ZOS doesn't like PvP and the PvP community. The whole game was pretty much designed around PvP in the form of the Alliance War. And as far as Battlegrounds, it sure feels to me like ZOS is trying their best to encourage non-PvP players to at least try Battlegrounds-- at least, they certainly show up a lot in the daily and weekly endeavors.