"Class Change Tokens would lead to FOTM chasing which is bad for the game"

JMadFour

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts in order to FOTM chase, which is apparently bad for the game.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

Ugrak

"Class Change Tokens would lead to FOTM chasing which is bad for the game"

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts according to what the FOTM currently is.

Yeah it doesn't matter to me which class is nerfed of buffed in this context.

I've got one of each class specifically for FOTM meta builds.

These are in addition to my main and any other characters, whichever classes they may be.

A class change token would be just the thing for my main however, because I want the theme of that specific character to be just right, and it's not.

Tandor

JMadFour wrote: »

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts according to what the FOTM currently is.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

The trouble is that it does impact on them. It would take significant developer resources to design, program, and test a system of class change, and for those who don't have the FOTM class maxed out it would lead to them being kicked from groups unless they bought a token. Because such tokens would have to provide the replacement revenue from all the skill line, skyshard and other Crown Store items people currently buy to avoid playing all the content for their characters but which would no longer be required there would also be more frequent balancing changes to promote more token sales, and those balancing changes would impact on everyone.

It's easy to say that structural changes to a game don't impact on those who don't want them as long as they're optional, but they always do in one way or another - and some structural changes are asked for as optional but imposed as compulsory e.g. AwA.

Snamyap

JMadFour wrote: »

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts according to what the FOTM currently is.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

Sooo, I guess the really question is: which is more likely? ZOS making a class change token or ZOS stopping with their wild rebalancing shenanigans. I wouldn't hold my breath on either.

Soarora

Yeah, it feels like a strawman argument. It seems based on some weird assumption that someone would rather spend a lot of money changing classes constantly and remaking builds than just leveling alts (which takes like… a week including skills during an exp event). Different classes have different uses too. The only real case I see for class change tokens is not liking the class either in use or for that character. I too think my main’s class doesn’t really fit her and would love to be able to swap it despite not using her to chase meta.

OtarTheMad

That’s a good point. I feel like that would also lead to the P2W goblins coming out of the forest to rage that class tokens are P2W.

FelisCatus

Tandor wrote: »

JMadFour wrote: »

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts according to what the FOTM currently is.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

The trouble is that it does impact on them. It would take significant developer resources to design, program, and test a system of class change, and for those who don't have the FOTM class maxed out it would lead to them being kicked from groups unless they bought a token. Because such tokens would have to provide the replacement revenue from all the skill line, skyshard and other Crown Store items people currently buy to avoid playing all the content for their characters but which would no longer be required there would also be more frequent balancing changes to promote more token sales, and those balancing changes would impact on everyone.

It's easy to say that structural changes to a game don't impact on those who don't want them as long as they're optional, but they always do in one way or another - and some structural changes are asked for as optional but imposed as compulsory e.g. AwA.

They spent significant developer resources and time to design the card game that no one asked for.

tinythinker

General reply to the thread as a whole thus far:

• FFXIV lets you add and swap between jobs and every job still has plenty of players/altoholics are still alt-ing
  
• The people I've encountered have no interest in spending tons of money on such tokens chasing a meta but rather to a make few meaningful changes based on how the game has changed and their focus on (a) particular character(s), but if people who want flavor of the month would rather pay real world money at every combat change than level up a new character it's their money and choice
  
• Yes, any system change is a big investment from developers but even staring with new class skill lines at zero would be welcome for those asking for a token; devs will make the call based on relative player support, amount of effort involved, and the correlation to potential monetization

Ugrak

Tandor wrote: »

for those who don't have the FOTM class maxed out it would lead to them being kicked from groups unless they bought a token.

The pressure to optimize in certain groups and content is real, but if class change tokens become an issue here, it is only due to laziness, because it's easy to make alts.

I made a separate set of one of each class specifically to be meta FOTM workhorses. These characters have no story; no identity. They are strictly for business.

Instead of buying a token, I'll just relog to whatever is in demand.

There will of course be the usual post-patch re-gearing and so on, but a token wouldn't help avoid that.

Tandor wrote: »

Because such tokens would have to provide the replacement revenue from all the skill line, skyshard and other Crown Store items people currently buy to avoid playing all the content for their characters but which would no longer be required there would also be more frequent balancing changes to promote more token sales, and those balancing changes would impact on everyone.

I'm not convinced that ZOS would begin basing their crown store revenue on combat patches designed to promote sale of service tokens. There are many scummy ways of monetizing games that ZOS has decided not to engage in.

The loss of revenue from a token vs shortcut tokens is a more valid concern. There is one obvious solution to the issue of revenue loss from the shortcut tokens: Dynamic pricing of the class change token.

i.e., the cost is based on what the equivalent price would be in crown store unlocks for everything the character has unlocked. e.g., skyshards, psijic skill, legerdemein, undaunted, etc.

That could make the cost enormous. The price of two to four notable homes probably in a mature character.

If so, maybe there should be a way to lower the cost by opting out of some things. So the token could tally up a list of the equivalent tokens in question, and you could deselect things to lower the cost, but then you'd have to re-grind those.

This would make class change an option for those who really desire it. At the same time, you wouldn't do it on a whim, and ZOS wouldn't be throwing money out the window either.

LadyLavina

FOTM chasing? After 8 years playing, I feel qualified to say that's all ESO is lol

Destai

I just wish @ZOS_GinaBruno would come here and tell us if they can do it or not. Seeing it spammed on this week's streams really shows people just want an answer. I'd personally love to see the matter put to rest.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin Can we please get an answer on this FAQ?

Ishtarknows

JMadFour wrote: »

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts according to what the FOTM currently is.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

There's nothing stopping you making alts you know

Tandor

FelisCatus wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

JMadFour wrote: »

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts according to what the FOTM currently is.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

The trouble is that it does impact on them. It would take significant developer resources to design, program, and test a system of class change, and for those who don't have the FOTM class maxed out it would lead to them being kicked from groups unless they bought a token. Because such tokens would have to provide the replacement revenue from all the skill line, skyshard and other Crown Store items people currently buy to avoid playing all the content for their characters but which would no longer be required there would also be more frequent balancing changes to promote more token sales, and those balancing changes would impact on everyone.

It's easy to say that structural changes to a game don't impact on those who don't want them as long as they're optional, but they always do in one way or another - and some structural changes are asked for as optional but imposed as compulsory e.g. AwA.

They spent significant developer resources and time to design the card game that no one asked for.

Some did ask for a card game, but not many. Then again, it's the usual silent majority that is asking for class change tokens, and probably not that many in total. In the recent poll here 55% said they will play the new class, 11% said they may do, and only 7% said they will only do so if there's a class change token.

While I don't rule out the chances of ZOS wasting resources on something not a lot of people want, and there is indeed precedent for that, I will still argue against them doing so if I think it's wrong for the game.

Dr_Con

If one character could be all classes, i'd still be fine with leveling them from 1-50. Everyone should be fine with it tbh, it literally takes nothing away from the game (unless you count taking free reign to kill newbies away from those smurfs living in u50 pvp)

There's so many race/alliance/class/build focus combinations right now that it cannot satisfy even a 20 character max. If I wanted to have a Nord, Khajiit, and Imperial for every alliance, each able to be any of the classes. That's half my character slots for the race choices alone, but 54 different classes. I can't do that on one account.

If it takes 1 hour to go from 1-50 in a nBRP carry, that's still 20characters slots*6 new classes/character slot*1hr of grinding/new class= 120 hours of grinding added to the game minimum, each with tons of opportunity to use crown store items like experience scrolls, or able to participate in dead U50 pvp, or any number of things. This creates stuff to do not only for the person leveling, but the people they are interacting with while leveling.

Class change as a feature would be a good addition, with the option of there being a crown store token, but that token should be no more significant than the outfit change token. Players should be able to class swap just as they can swap skill morphs.

disintegr8

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, it feels like a strawman argument. It seems based on some weird assumption that someone would rather spend a lot of money changing classes constantly and remaking builds than just leveling alts (which takes like… a week including skills during an exp event). Different classes have different uses too. The only real case I see for class change tokens is not liking the class either in use or for that character. I too think my main’s class doesn’t really fit her and would love to be able to swap it despite not using her to chase meta.

"which takes like… a week" only gets you to level 50. That is over simplifying things, what about the skill points, crafting levels, horse training, etc.?

I have 18 characters with all of this done, including trait research, not through chasing FOTM, but simply enjoying the game and trying the different classes and races out. These were all completed without buying progress, so a class change token for someone like me would be great - even though I'd still baulk at excessive pricing and just ignore the new class.

Rev Rielle

I'd argue the naysayers are not quite right and at worst fear mongering. Any actual evidence is contrary and right there in-game experience: How often have you, or your friends or guild heard any groups/trials consistently publicly advertise looking for, for example 'dps must be FOTM magicka sorcerer'. Any clarification of role is nearly always 'looking for dps, 45K min parse' or words to that effect. How many guilds have you heard advertise and in their criteria state such things as, 'healer applicants must be 'templar'? It just doesn't consistently happen.

Now arguably those FOTM, immature kinds of players do exist. So let them. It doesn't affect the majority of players or the game as a whole. How would it effect the rest of us? It would not one bit. It's not like anyone is changing to a class that is not already in the game in numbers of hundreds-of-thousands. The game's population is healthy enough that you absolutely don't have to play with any part of the player-base you don't want to. The vast vast majority of the player base seem to play for one reason and one reason only; To have a bit of fun in our spare time. We don't put others down or exclude them for playing what they want, how they want. If you are around guild/players that do, then simply put they are not your friends and you should find another circle to associate in. If adding a class change token will keep players playing and enjoying the game (with no realized downside) there is no reason why it shouldn't be added. Again there is no actual real evidence-based case against it that anyone has ever presented.

I remind people of the pre-dye era. There was a vocal portion of the player-base that basically proclaimed "Oh no we can't have that! Everything will be dyed in ridiculous colours and it will ruin the look of the game." These forum users were absolutely adamant this would happen and no one, and nothing, could persuade them otherwise. Dyes were introduced and this fear of course was not realized. 99.9% of the player-base dye their character equipment in sensible colours.

VaranisArano

Do class change tokens come with 6-month insurance in case of changes to your chosen class?

VaranisArano

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, it feels like a strawman argument. It seems based on some weird assumption that someone would rather spend a lot of money changing classes constantly and remaking builds than just leveling alts (which takes like… a week including skills during an exp event). Different classes have different uses too. The only real case I see for class change tokens is not liking the class either in use or for that character. I too think my main’s class doesn’t really fit her and would love to be able to swap it despite not using her to chase meta.

Is it such a weird assumption when Race Change tokens exist and players do use them rather than just leveling alts?

Now, with Racial passives, ZOS rarely changes them and they have given out free tokens on occasion because players rightly pointed out that they were directly monetizing balance changes.

That's something that ZOS has to consider with Class Change tokens. They change classes in large and small ways with every update. They shake up the meta in PVE and PVP on a regular basis. How much do they want to put a direct price tag on class balance changes?

Elsonso

After doing AwA so that everything is account based to make the game more Alt Friendly, if they did Class Change Tokens so that people didn't need alts... I would be furious.

Amottica

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, it feels like a strawman argument. It seems based on some weird assumption that someone would rather spend a lot of money changing classes constantly and remaking builds than just leveling alts (which takes like… a week including skills during an exp event). Different classes have different uses too. The only real case I see for class change tokens is not liking the class either in use or for that character. I too think my main’s class doesn’t really fit her and would love to be able to swap it despite not using her to chase meta.

You do make a valid point. Very few players I have known in all my MMORPG years have only played one character. Most have covered all the classes, unless they are new, and often multiple of each class. It is why MMORPGs add character slots.

Vulkunne

JMadFour wrote: »

.....says the people who swap between 18 alts in order to FOTM chase, which is apparently bad for the game.

It’s amazing how many people in this forum are so vehemently against nearly any change or addition that is optional and doesn't affect their characters in any way but might improve another player’s QOL in this game.

You said it my friend.

But lets be honest about this, when they do setup the Class Change Tokens the deck is gonna get shuffled.

Its going to happen, eventually things will return to normal with new metrics... better to just let it happen with the new class and sooner rather than later.

Sarannah

Why make a new thread, there's already like four open right now. One of which ZOS even responded in that they are looking at the thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626238/would-you-pay-for-a-class-change-token-to-play-arcanist/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626208/new-class-and-existing-mains-class-change/p1

And I'm against a class change token for various reasons, not just the FOTM reason. Even if ZOS ever makes a class change token, it should NEVER be available for a newly released class. As that removes the entire reason of even releasing a new class.

Ratzkifal

The main argument against class change tokens is that the game is already over monetized and we know a hypothetical class change token would be 4500 crowns (4000 too much if you ask me).

Dr_Con

Ratzkifal wrote: »

The main argument against class change tokens is that the game is already over monetized and we know a hypothetical class change token would be 4500 crowns (4000 too much if you ask me).

This. It should be no more than an outfit change token. And like an outfit change token, people should be able to pay gold instead. Provide features that open the game up, don't monetize what would enhance the game and keep players coming back.

Cheveyo

Instead of a class change token, just have a "level 50 boost".

It boosts a character and completes/unlocks everything from whatever faction you rolled on. Maybe restrict it so you can only roll on whichever faction you've already completed the base game story and faction story on.

So the boost would make your character level 50, gives them all skyshards from your faction's zones, completes all quests and gives you the skill points from the story quests that gave skill points on. Also boosts all your class skills so you have the option to immediately choose a morph for whatever skill you learn.

Maybe create 3 tiers. Tier 3, available if you've completed all three faction stories(so finished Cauldwell's Gold), completes all three factions and gives you everything therein. It would be the most expensive. Tier 2 would be in the middle price-wise, for 2 factions. Tier 1 would be for one faction and would be the cheapest. Maybe 6k, 4.5k, 3k crowns?

Then add additional purchasable, account-wide permanent unlock and boosts for Mages Guild, Fighter's Guild, Psijic, Thieves, etc. Only available for purchase if you've completed the associated stories/quests. So each character you create after purchasing the boost would receive all of the rewards, a maxed out skill line, and everything. 1k crowns each?

Shagreth

That addition would finally let me enjoy the game fully and stick around for a change. I find it extremely disappointing that the devs are all radio silence about it, in every Livestream it's the most requested feature.

Seraphayel

Honestly, I don’t know a single MMORPG that offers something like a class change token. Not one. I‘m not against it, but I have no precedent for it to base my judgement on. It’s only something I see requested in ESO forums.

Aektann

To all this people who "Just create alt".
I HATE alts. But I love to play on ONE main character all the time.
And with this combat changes from ZOS my main character sometimes turns into a pumpkin.
Class change token Is a lifesaver for people like me.

Elsonso

Cheveyo wrote: »

Instead of a class change token, just have a "level 50 boost".

What about a Daedric Cloning Station. One character goes in, two come out, customized on exit but otherwise identical. 4,000 Crowns per use, just to keep the eCommerce bean counters happy.

Foxtrot39

The reason people want a class change token is two fold

-Not going through the obnoxious mount, skill and skyshard grind all over again

-Emotional attachement to a character they want to changewithout having to delete & restart

Vulkunne

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

The reason people want a class change token is two fold

-Not going through the obnoxious mount, skill and skyshard grind all over again

-Emotional attachement to a character they want to changewithout having to delete & restart

Well I think there are more reason than that but this is why we need to leave it up to the player to decide. As for some people it very well may be a personal choice and its not really our place to judge them for it. Especially if this is what they both paid for and worked towards.

But what you said is correct nonetheless.