We better get a new skin if we're only getting 2 dungeons this year.

Dragonlord573

I've mentioned this last year, but I'm gonna mention it again.

It has been since Flames of Ambition since we have gotten an earnable skin either from dungeons, and has been since Wolfhunter since we got a personality. Many of us who do dungeon trifectas are tired of getting nothing but crummy titles as rewards that the majority of the playerbase doesn't even know the significance of. Give us an earnable skin this year! I want a reason to do a dungeons hardmode/trifecta instead of getting some boring text next to my name.

Hyperdeathstalker

I do agree with this , but due to heavy investment in crown crates i dont think this will happen, i would like to see a new skin or more mounts added. I would settle for a uniqe style page or costume unique to the dungeon, how about a polymorph of last boss ? as long as they humanoid

emilyhyoyeon

I think personalities are 100x cooler of a reward than skins but I agree with the sentiment

flizomica

I'm really hoping we get a revamp of the rewards structure with one of the updates this year. I haven't been heavily invested in dungeons since they removed the cool rewards from later Challenger achievements. Heck, I used to be current with all the HM achievements in the game and then completely stopped when they no longer gave cool rewards. Doing something like RG HM or DSR HM and getting only face markings and a title is absurd.

Rageypoo

Please more personalities, I hate seeing more than half the people running around with the assassin personality. Watching some tiny wizard with a 2h staff pulling out some random dagger and looking at it like come on.

ArchMikem

You made it sound like you're doing these runs for the clout. I'll personally let you know I give more serious consideration to the title, than when I see gaudy skins. Plus there's so many these days I don't even know which is from where anymore. You can earn some, you can buy others.

Also try not to sound so demanding. We get what we get.

Diminish

I don't even use titles, therefor get nothing but the joy of the experience which I am personally ok with, and have come to accept. However, in general I think in-game earn-able cosmetics (or lack thereof) is something that could definitely use some attention. I get ZoS doesn't want to strip away that revenue flow from crown-store purchasable ones, but they could at least make an attempt at balancing out in-game to crown store cosmetics. Give long term players some goodies to earn for playing the game. It is a game after all, throw us a bone once in awhile!

blue_peaceful_Manticore

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

I've mentioned this last year, but I'm gonna mention it again.

It has been since Flames of Ambition since we have gotten an earnable skin either from dungeons, and has been since Wolfhunter since we got a personality. Many of us who do dungeon trifectas are tired of getting nothing but crummy titles as rewards that the majority of the playerbase doesn't even know the significance of. Give us an earnable skin this year! I want a reason to do a dungeons hardmode/trifecta instead of getting some boring text next to my name.

The first time i enter ingame (When i buy it), i buy Blood-Forged Skin with Crowns. This was my first buy in CrownStore 4 years ago +/-

Today, all we can buy is the same skin. Lol!



but anyway, i Agree with other replys. Personalities is more fun then Skins to hide behind armors.

Dr_Con

didn't they just release a skin with galen?
edit:
Barkroot Blessing

you want dungeon specific rewards? aren't 6 new sets and 2 monster helm sets reward enough? I'm on board with extra loot for doing HM, but nothing much outside of extra standard rewards. Veteran content max for skin, to be consistent with other areas of the game- furnishings for anything beyond that.

Dragonlord573

Dr_Con wrote: »

didn't they just release a skin with galen?
edit:
Barkroot Blessing

you want dungeon specific rewards? aren't 6 new sets and 2 monster helm sets reward enough? I'm on board with extra loot for doing HM, but nothing much outside of extra standard rewards. Veteran content max for skin, to be consistent with other areas of the game- furnishings for anything beyond that.

6 sets and 2 monsters sets are not enough when only one of each are worth using. Look at last year's dungeons. Only Turning Tide, Nazary, and Arch Druid are actually worth using. Useless sets are another issue, but getting more gear that's bad than good is a smack in the face when we got a lot more useful sets, skins, and personalities in the past. Why ask for the bare minimum when we could be getting the equivalent of what we had. I'm tired of running dungeons that are just getting harder and harder and the rewards don't match up.

Diminish

Dr_Con wrote: »

didn't they just release a skin with galen?
edit:
Barkroot Blessing

you want dungeon specific rewards? aren't 6 new sets and 2 monster helm sets reward enough? I'm on board with extra loot for doing HM, but nothing much outside of extra standard rewards. Veteran content max for skin, to be consistent with other areas of the game- furnishings for anything beyond that.

Oh, you mean the cosmetic item locked behind a ~250,000+ gold treasure map that provides a ridiculously low drop chance for the lead (as does the map itself unless you buy it at the previously mentioned inflated price). RNG locked behind RNG is probably not the desire by anyone commenting and supporting the OPs original post.

Dr_Con

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

didn't they just release a skin with galen?
edit:
Barkroot Blessing

you want dungeon specific rewards? aren't 6 new sets and 2 monster helm sets reward enough? I'm on board with extra loot for doing HM, but nothing much outside of extra standard rewards. Veteran content max for skin, to be consistent with other areas of the game- furnishings for anything beyond that.

6 sets and 2 monsters sets are not enough when only one of each are worth using. Look at last year's dungeons. Only Turning Tide, Nazary, and Arch Druid are actually worth using. Useless sets are another issue, but getting more gear that's bad than good is a smack in the face when we got a lot more useful sets, skins, and personalities in the past. Why ask for the bare minimum when we could be getting the equivalent of what we had. I'm tired of running dungeons that are just getting harder and harder and the rewards don't match up.

It's a far cry to call everything useless. They're just useless to you. Grave inevitability can be helpful for non-oaken ranged fights and to free up ability bar from channeled acceleration. Denmother can be useful for people who don't run trials but still need minor courage. Euphotic can even be used to block a z'maja heavy attack (it'd be nice if the cooldown was shorter tbf). Ursauk is a medium set that can be helpful for 2 bar HA groups. Gryphon's Reprisal is used in some some arena score pushing builds. Kargaeda has a unique effect that can be helpful for group sustain in burn phases when symphony isn't enough.

Just because you don't see things being used doesn't mean they aren't useful to others playing the game.

endgamesmug

Probably because alot especially on pc cant do that content, so probably producing for the bulk of the population i think.

Dr_Con

Dr_Con wrote: »

didn't they just release a skin with galen?
edit:
Barkroot Blessing

you want dungeon specific rewards? aren't 6 new sets and 2 monster helm sets reward enough? I'm on board with extra loot for doing HM, but nothing much outside of extra standard rewards. Veteran content max for skin, to be consistent with other areas of the game- furnishings for anything beyond that.

Oh, you mean the cosmetic item locked behind a ~250,000+ gold treasure map that provides a ridiculously low drop chance for the lead (as does the map itself unless you buy it at the previously mentioned inflated price). RNG locked behind RNG is probably not the desire by anyone commenting and supporting the OPs original post.

It can be a point to complain that there are too few treasure map locations for galen, which accounts for the low drop rate. This complaint was present for Deadlands as well, but the prices are a product of supply and demand- Galen Treasure Map 1 is dropping at the same rate as Malabal Tor Treasure Map 1, but you have Malabal Tor treasure maps 1-6 which makes getting a treasure map for malabal tor 3 times more likely than galen treasure maps 1-2. In reality, the argument weight here is relative to ones' own amount of in-game wealth times how badly they want the skin- this number is not definable as it varies from user to user... but there's no denying that 250k for some players is as meaningful as 2.5k coin to everyone else, and certain players would rather not bother to get the skin because they just don't like it, while other players would spend their entire net worth to get it because they love it so much.

On the flip side, people who farm them for the money (including people who play casually and don't own the DLC) are happy at the price they're getting, and they are unlikely to come here and complain. Locking things behind economy is the same as locking things behind vet/hard mode content- I'm surprised more people don't point out the hypocrisy there.

Soarora

ArchMikem wrote: »

You made it sound like you're doing these runs for the clout. I'll personally let you know I give more serious consideration to the title, than when I see gaudy skins. Plus there's so many these days I don't even know which is from where anymore. You can earn some, you can buy others.

Also try not to sound so demanding. We get what we get.

Even if someone is running "for the clout", that's okay? Your argument reflects back on titles too, there's so many I don't know where most of them are from, even my own titles. We need real endgame rewards back. The completion isn't good enough to give real motivation to do them. Dro-M'Athra skin and Worm Wizard personality got me into endgame, we need more rewards like that. I've stopped doing challengers and just do HMs and Tris, which to break that down... challengers have NO REWARD AT ALL now and HM and Tri both give titles. A title is the effort of typing in about 3 words... and no one memorizes the HM titles so only the Trifecta one matters.

Dr_Con wrote: »

didn't they just release a skin with galen?
edit:
Barkroot Blessing

you want dungeon specific rewards? aren't 6 new sets and 2 monster helm sets reward enough? I'm on board with extra loot for doing HM, but nothing much outside of extra standard rewards. Veteran content max for skin, to be consistent with other areas of the game- furnishings for anything beyond that.

The sets are for normal, the helms are for vet. Neither of those reward endgame content. Veteran being the maximum for skin in dungeons is a downgrade from what we had previously. I don't think trial and dungeon rewards should be compared, they're completely different content.

colossalvoids

Honestly skin+personality combo was a perfect match we had for a pack. Not even sure I know what were the rewards for recent ones, as wasn't even caring to check out what we were getting as it's so generic and uninspired.

If we'll even go to previous reward structure or at least partially I'd be more down for personalities as recent years skins overall were a huge disappointment, ever since they've made them vet tag along reward or a crate filler, maybe when art isn't inspired by money they wanna get from gamblers there's a difference.

Don't even wanna talk titles. Let's just say best ones already are ingame and no sign of anything interesting on a horizon, the least meaningful reward currently. What's the next one, shroom caretaker? Lmao.

LittlePinkDot

You mean there's people who actually like DLC dungeons?

Agenericname

colossalvoids wrote: »

Honestly skin+personality combo was a perfect match we had for a pack. Not even sure I know what were the rewards for recent ones, as wasn't even caring to check out what we were getting as it's so generic and uninspired.

If we'll even go to previous reward structure or at least partially I'd be more down for personalities as recent years skins overall were a huge disappointment, ever since they've made them vet tag along reward or a crate filler, maybe when art isn't inspired by money they wanna get from gamblers there's a difference.

Don't even wanna talk titles. Let's just say best ones already are ingame and no sign of anything interesting on a horizon, the least meaningful reward currently. What's the next one, shroom caretaker? Lmao.

Wolfhunter was one of the better IMO. Thematically they matched the dungeons and the skin and personality matched each other.

Dragon Bones was okay. I like the emotes from Worm Wizard more than the idle. The skin, meh. Still a nice reward system though.

Araneae6537

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

You mean there's people who actually like DLC dungeons?

For sure! Many of them are super fun! And I enjoy working with a group to overcome a challenge — granted, can take the right group and some challenges feel more frustrating, but it is impossible it could be “just right” all the time with all the variables.

As for the rewards, I’m meh on most skins; most are too much and make your character look like an alien or zombie or diseased or whatever. I think the one from Scalecaller Peak is nice. There are now sooo many skins in the game (no pun intended), I doubt most players recognize where any particular one is from unless they’ve specifically looked one up to acquire it. More personalities could be cool, especially if they included some subtler ones. Beast/zombie/worm personalities are totally not my thing.

SpacemanSpiff1

nah. it should be a pet. probably a chicken.

Jaimeh

There have been a lot of requests for better in-game rewards, and it was something that was mentioned when the street team members had a discussion with ZOS a while ago, so I think we might see more things like that this year. I liked when dungeon challenger achievements awarded personalities and skins, so I hope we go back to that system.

Dragonredux

I imagine an apex level mount would be enough to motivate people to try and get the trifecta. People loves their cosmetics and it'll be nice to change it every once in a while.

Most people don't know/care where some Dungeon Titles come from but they'll notice mount/skin/personality.

Ragnarok0130

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

You mean there's people who actually like DLC dungeons?

I prefer DLC dungeons to non-DLC dungeons.

tomofhyrule

This is another of those topics that comes up frequently, so I'll just take what I said before:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just think that earned rewards should be appropriate to the content.

I'm much more okay than most people at just buying cosmetics because they're just cosmetics. What I think it not okay is skill gating things that are more generic, which is basically saying "you can't RP the way you want unless you can do this trifecta!"

Case in point: the skin from Ruins of Mazzatun is a good reward - it's the Amber Plasm skin, which is used in that dungeon only. It can't really be used outside of that unless you're doing a very specific my-character-went-through-Mazzatun RP session, so it seems fine.
I do not think the Worm Wizard personality is a good reward. Personalities are extremely useful for things like RP, and nobody in Fang Lair uses the Worm Wizard personality. The only association is 'necromancers.' In fact, the Scalecaller skin should be the Fang Lair reward since the NPCs in FL wear that skin and nobody in SCP does.

It's another issue that I've had with things like locking the fishing boat behind vKA (what does killing a vampire lord have to do with putting a boat in your house?), or even the perennial early acces rewards - I guarantee that people woudn't have as many issues with the beta monkey/tiger mount/sphere centurion if the generic version of those was the crown store one and the beta tester reward had a sparkly gold vest with an Ouroborous or something.

Yes, sometimes that will get people to do content - I know I annoyed the heck out of my guild trying to get that Beast personality for my werewolf - but that's not a general rule. A lot of times, it'll just lead to resentment. And yes, there are a lot of endgame raiders who are also big into housing or RP or whatever, but that's not a general rule.

So go ahead and put more rewards behind content since it's fun to earn things. But don't lock things useful for one game mode behind other modes. We get enough resentment for having PvP mythic leads locked behind things like mindless farming or PvE content.

Short answer: I love personalities, but I do not agree with gating something useful for RP behind high-level PvE content. Something like a personality should be accessible to everyone, and should be in the store of available for overland questing.

Skins and flashy mounts, however, are good high-level PvE rewards since they are mostly specific to the dungeon/trial in question.

And a longer explanation from a different thread as to why I feel this way:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like the problem here is that this is several different questions right now:

• How are the earnable rewards for content in game?
• How accessible are said rewards to players?

It does seem that there are fewer and fewer things available in game as most things are being shuttled to the Crown Store, which... I can't say I mind. I get my serotonin fix from getting the achievements, not from standing in the center of Mournhold trying to flex on random people. If that's the goal, why not just have each trifecta give a non-combat pet that's a floating neon sign that says "I'm better than u" so people can really see it?

As for the fact that things tend to go to the Crown Store over being earnable in game, yes it would be nice if they were earnable in game, but I'd rather make things accessible than gate rewards, particularly if a reward is useful for other groups of players (more on that below). What I do not agree with is stuffing them into Crown Crates. Anecdotal, but it seems like the drop rates for things on the last set of crates has made a turn for the worse, and I know most of us on the forums would rather buy things directly than have to jump through all of these RNG FOMO hoops that definitely make the store seem predatory to some people.

Now, as to accessibility of rewards, we need to remember on the forums that - for the most part - the forum base is much more experienced than the average player. We're here trying to argue that the XBox achievement metrics for dungeon clears is skewed, but it seems the fact that most of the playerbase isn't able to do the vet dungeons is inconceivable to a lot of people on the forums. I feel like this is why the "omg everything's too easy" argument here won't die is that the forums are an echo chamber of experienced players who can't understand what it's like to be casual. I remember on the PTS, I've even seen someone who was telling people like code to 'git gud' for saying that a certain dungeon mechanic may be too difficult for the average player.

There is a range of players in this game. As an example, I have a guildie who I see in guild chat almost every day and who's been playing longer than I have. They still have less than 1k CP, and I remember they were complaining a month or so ago about how the 'kill 20 WBs' weekly endeavor was inaccessible to them because it forced them to group up with people. Most other people I know hammered that one out solo the first day.

The big problem I have with rewards (like the MoS and FL personalities) is the fact that some of these rewards have uses other than flexing on people. I know I annoyed my guild when I first joined since I wanted to do nothing but MoS because I wanted that... for an RP character. There was also a lot of arguments about locking a useful furnishing like the fishing boat behind clearing a vet trial. Yes, on the forums, there are people who are in the top 1% or players who also do housing or RP or whatever, but that's definitely not a general rule. And I do not agree with putting a skill gate on the casual community. If a dungeon offers a flashy skin that's used on the enemies in there (like the Malatar purified or the Fang Lair sigils that inexplicably come from Scalecaller) that's one thing, but something that could be useful to a casual community like personalities or basic furnishings should be accessible to that community.

My example here would be, what if they released a mythic like pre-nerf Thrassians or Kilt that didn't lose stacks, making it basically a requirement in PvE... but then they locked one of the leads behind winning a ZOS-sponsored writing contest judged by leading fantasy authors? Sure, there are excellent fanfic writers who are into PvE, but there are also a lot of fanfic writers who are not and for whom that lead would be wasted. And we're already seeing the fury on the forum when a mythic useful in PvP and for build accessibility is locked behind 'sit here and steal from a lockbox.' People would rightly rage if the top-end PvErs had to switch gears and become creative storytellers and RPers just to get something they need.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Why are we even equating aesthetic fluff like a skin with actual content like dungeons. You are basically playing right into their hands. "Since you are giving us no real content, please have the artistic team whip up a few shiny things that have zero impact on gameplay."


How about this, since you are only giving us 2 new dungeons this year, how about we take a shot at the bugs, balance and performance issues and make some real progress in those areas.

Soarora

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This is another of those topics that comes up frequently, so I'll just take what I said before:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just think that earned rewards should be appropriate to the content.

I'm much more okay than most people at just buying cosmetics because they're just cosmetics. What I think it not okay is skill gating things that are more generic, which is basically saying "you can't RP the way you want unless you can do this trifecta!"

Case in point: the skin from Ruins of Mazzatun is a good reward - it's the Amber Plasm skin, which is used in that dungeon only. It can't really be used outside of that unless you're doing a very specific my-character-went-through-Mazzatun RP session, so it seems fine.
I do not think the Worm Wizard personality is a good reward. Personalities are extremely useful for things like RP, and nobody in Fang Lair uses the Worm Wizard personality. The only association is 'necromancers.' In fact, the Scalecaller skin should be the Fang Lair reward since the NPCs in FL wear that skin and nobody in SCP does.

It's another issue that I've had with things like locking the fishing boat behind vKA (what does killing a vampire lord have to do with putting a boat in your house?), or even the perennial early acces rewards - I guarantee that people woudn't have as many issues with the beta monkey/tiger mount/sphere centurion if the generic version of those was the crown store one and the beta tester reward had a sparkly gold vest with an Ouroborous or something.

Yes, sometimes that will get people to do content - I know I annoyed the heck out of my guild trying to get that Beast personality for my werewolf - but that's not a general rule. A lot of times, it'll just lead to resentment. And yes, there are a lot of endgame raiders who are also big into housing or RP or whatever, but that's not a general rule.

So go ahead and put more rewards behind content since it's fun to earn things. But don't lock things useful for one game mode behind other modes. We get enough resentment for having PvP mythic leads locked behind things like mindless farming or PvE content.

Short answer: I love personalities, but I do not agree with gating something useful for RP behind high-level PvE content. Something like a personality should be accessible to everyone, and should be in the store of available for overland questing.

Skins and flashy mounts, however, are good high-level PvE rewards since they are mostly specific to the dungeon/trial in question.

And a longer explanation from a different thread as to why I feel this way:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like the problem here is that this is several different questions right now:

• How are the earnable rewards for content in game?
• How accessible are said rewards to players?

It does seem that there are fewer and fewer things available in game as most things are being shuttled to the Crown Store, which... I can't say I mind. I get my serotonin fix from getting the achievements, not from standing in the center of Mournhold trying to flex on random people. If that's the goal, why not just have each trifecta give a non-combat pet that's a floating neon sign that says "I'm better than u" so people can really see it?

As for the fact that things tend to go to the Crown Store over being earnable in game, yes it would be nice if they were earnable in game, but I'd rather make things accessible than gate rewards, particularly if a reward is useful for other groups of players (more on that below). What I do not agree with is stuffing them into Crown Crates. Anecdotal, but it seems like the drop rates for things on the last set of crates has made a turn for the worse, and I know most of us on the forums would rather buy things directly than have to jump through all of these RNG FOMO hoops that definitely make the store seem predatory to some people.

Now, as to accessibility of rewards, we need to remember on the forums that - for the most part - the forum base is much more experienced than the average player. We're here trying to argue that the XBox achievement metrics for dungeon clears is skewed, but it seems the fact that most of the playerbase isn't able to do the vet dungeons is inconceivable to a lot of people on the forums. I feel like this is why the "omg everything's too easy" argument here won't die is that the forums are an echo chamber of experienced players who can't understand what it's like to be casual. I remember on the PTS, I've even seen someone who was telling people like code to 'git gud' for saying that a certain dungeon mechanic may be too difficult for the average player.

There is a range of players in this game. As an example, I have a guildie who I see in guild chat almost every day and who's been playing longer than I have. They still have less than 1k CP, and I remember they were complaining a month or so ago about how the 'kill 20 WBs' weekly endeavor was inaccessible to them because it forced them to group up with people. Most other people I know hammered that one out solo the first day.

The big problem I have with rewards (like the MoS and FL personalities) is the fact that some of these rewards have uses other than flexing on people. I know I annoyed my guild when I first joined since I wanted to do nothing but MoS because I wanted that... for an RP character. There was also a lot of arguments about locking a useful furnishing like the fishing boat behind clearing a vet trial. Yes, on the forums, there are people who are in the top 1% or players who also do housing or RP or whatever, but that's definitely not a general rule. And I do not agree with putting a skill gate on the casual community. If a dungeon offers a flashy skin that's used on the enemies in there (like the Malatar purified or the Fang Lair sigils that inexplicably come from Scalecaller) that's one thing, but something that could be useful to a casual community like personalities or basic furnishings should be accessible to that community.

My example here would be, what if they released a mythic like pre-nerf Thrassians or Kilt that didn't lose stacks, making it basically a requirement in PvE... but then they locked one of the leads behind winning a ZOS-sponsored writing contest judged by leading fantasy authors? Sure, there are excellent fanfic writers who are into PvE, but there are also a lot of fanfic writers who are not and for whom that lead would be wasted. And we're already seeing the fury on the forum when a mythic useful in PvP and for build accessibility is locked behind 'sit here and steal from a lockbox.' People would rightly rage if the top-end PvErs had to switch gears and become creative storytellers and RPers just to get something they need.

The dungeon reward personalities have crown store or quest personalities that fill a similar niche. Zombie and Beast, Telvanni Magistrate and Worm Wizard. If I didn’t need to do endgame to get rewards for RP reasons (as mentioned, Dro-M’Athra skin got me into trials, Worm Wizard got me into dungeons… both are for my Dro-M’Athra) I would never have joined endgame.
Out of fairness though, I do think there should be a quest or purchase version in the same niche of rewards that have RP use. Distinct enough to be different but close enough to be switched out… I think Beast and Zombie is the best example of this.

The rewards of skins and personalities I think should stay at the Challenger level.
It’s an important stepping stone and it’s not so out of reach to someone who can do vet, compared to trifectas. Trifecta rewards deserve better as well but at least people are able to recognize the titles from them.

Just because I do endgame does not mean I want flashy gaudy rewards to flex on people, I come from being a casual of about 2 years. I remember struggling to find a nMoL group, failing at Kyne’s Aegis, doing Fang Lair over and over and over again. Looking up at players using the rewards I wished for, never really believing that I’d ever get them. And yet, I tried and tried and finally succeeded. It was the best feeling I’ve ever had from the game. And now I help a friend do the same. The old reward system was amazing… and now, we get nothing. Except a momento for clearing the dungeon.

Araneae6537

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Why are we even equating aesthetic fluff like a skin with actual content like dungeons. You are basically playing right into their hands. "Since you are giving us no real content, please have the artistic team whip up a few shiny things that have zero impact on gameplay."


How about this, since you are only giving us 2 new dungeons this year, how about we take a shot at the bugs, balance and performance issues and make some real progress in those areas.

Very true! I hope the two we do get are well-designed dungeons that I enjoy playing through, as I have many of the DLC dungeons, and beyond that the rewards I’m most interested in are a well-designed motif like True-Sworn and another badass looking monster helm like that of Baron Zaudrus!

tomofhyrule

Soarora wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This is another of those topics that comes up frequently, so I'll just take what I said before:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just think that earned rewards should be appropriate to the content.

I'm much more okay than most people at just buying cosmetics because they're just cosmetics. What I think it not okay is skill gating things that are more generic, which is basically saying "you can't RP the way you want unless you can do this trifecta!"

Case in point: the skin from Ruins of Mazzatun is a good reward - it's the Amber Plasm skin, which is used in that dungeon only. It can't really be used outside of that unless you're doing a very specific my-character-went-through-Mazzatun RP session, so it seems fine.
I do not think the Worm Wizard personality is a good reward. Personalities are extremely useful for things like RP, and nobody in Fang Lair uses the Worm Wizard personality. The only association is 'necromancers.' In fact, the Scalecaller skin should be the Fang Lair reward since the NPCs in FL wear that skin and nobody in SCP does.

It's another issue that I've had with things like locking the fishing boat behind vKA (what does killing a vampire lord have to do with putting a boat in your house?), or even the perennial early acces rewards - I guarantee that people woudn't have as many issues with the beta monkey/tiger mount/sphere centurion if the generic version of those was the crown store one and the beta tester reward had a sparkly gold vest with an Ouroborous or something.

Yes, sometimes that will get people to do content - I know I annoyed the heck out of my guild trying to get that Beast personality for my werewolf - but that's not a general rule. A lot of times, it'll just lead to resentment. And yes, there are a lot of endgame raiders who are also big into housing or RP or whatever, but that's not a general rule.

So go ahead and put more rewards behind content since it's fun to earn things. But don't lock things useful for one game mode behind other modes. We get enough resentment for having PvP mythic leads locked behind things like mindless farming or PvE content.

Short answer: I love personalities, but I do not agree with gating something useful for RP behind high-level PvE content. Something like a personality should be accessible to everyone, and should be in the store of available for overland questing.

Skins and flashy mounts, however, are good high-level PvE rewards since they are mostly specific to the dungeon/trial in question.

And a longer explanation from a different thread as to why I feel this way:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like the problem here is that this is several different questions right now:

• How are the earnable rewards for content in game?
• How accessible are said rewards to players?

It does seem that there are fewer and fewer things available in game as most things are being shuttled to the Crown Store, which... I can't say I mind. I get my serotonin fix from getting the achievements, not from standing in the center of Mournhold trying to flex on random people. If that's the goal, why not just have each trifecta give a non-combat pet that's a floating neon sign that says "I'm better than u" so people can really see it?

As for the fact that things tend to go to the Crown Store over being earnable in game, yes it would be nice if they were earnable in game, but I'd rather make things accessible than gate rewards, particularly if a reward is useful for other groups of players (more on that below). What I do not agree with is stuffing them into Crown Crates. Anecdotal, but it seems like the drop rates for things on the last set of crates has made a turn for the worse, and I know most of us on the forums would rather buy things directly than have to jump through all of these RNG FOMO hoops that definitely make the store seem predatory to some people.

Now, as to accessibility of rewards, we need to remember on the forums that - for the most part - the forum base is much more experienced than the average player. We're here trying to argue that the XBox achievement metrics for dungeon clears is skewed, but it seems the fact that most of the playerbase isn't able to do the vet dungeons is inconceivable to a lot of people on the forums. I feel like this is why the "omg everything's too easy" argument here won't die is that the forums are an echo chamber of experienced players who can't understand what it's like to be casual. I remember on the PTS, I've even seen someone who was telling people like code to 'git gud' for saying that a certain dungeon mechanic may be too difficult for the average player.

There is a range of players in this game. As an example, I have a guildie who I see in guild chat almost every day and who's been playing longer than I have. They still have less than 1k CP, and I remember they were complaining a month or so ago about how the 'kill 20 WBs' weekly endeavor was inaccessible to them because it forced them to group up with people. Most other people I know hammered that one out solo the first day.

The big problem I have with rewards (like the MoS and FL personalities) is the fact that some of these rewards have uses other than flexing on people. I know I annoyed my guild when I first joined since I wanted to do nothing but MoS because I wanted that... for an RP character. There was also a lot of arguments about locking a useful furnishing like the fishing boat behind clearing a vet trial. Yes, on the forums, there are people who are in the top 1% or players who also do housing or RP or whatever, but that's definitely not a general rule. And I do not agree with putting a skill gate on the casual community. If a dungeon offers a flashy skin that's used on the enemies in there (like the Malatar purified or the Fang Lair sigils that inexplicably come from Scalecaller) that's one thing, but something that could be useful to a casual community like personalities or basic furnishings should be accessible to that community.

My example here would be, what if they released a mythic like pre-nerf Thrassians or Kilt that didn't lose stacks, making it basically a requirement in PvE... but then they locked one of the leads behind winning a ZOS-sponsored writing contest judged by leading fantasy authors? Sure, there are excellent fanfic writers who are into PvE, but there are also a lot of fanfic writers who are not and for whom that lead would be wasted. And we're already seeing the fury on the forum when a mythic useful in PvP and for build accessibility is locked behind 'sit here and steal from a lockbox.' People would rightly rage if the top-end PvErs had to switch gears and become creative storytellers and RPers just to get something they need.

The dungeon reward personalities have crown store or quest personalities that fill a similar niche. Zombie and Beast, Telvanni Magistrate and Worm Wizard. If I didn’t need to do endgame to get rewards for RP reasons (as mentioned, Dro-M’Athra skin got me into trials, Worm Wizard got me into dungeons… both are for my Dro-M’Athra) I would never have joined endgame.
Out of fairness though, I do think there should be a quest or purchase version in the same niche of rewards that have RP use. Distinct enough to be different but close enough to be switched out… I think Beast and Zombie is the best example of this.

The rewards of skins and personalities I think should stay at the Challenger level.
It’s an important stepping stone and it’s not so out of reach to someone who can do vet, compared to trifectas. Trifecta rewards deserve better as well but at least people are able to recognize the titles from them.

Just because I do endgame does not mean I want flashy gaudy rewards to flex on people, I come from being a casual of about 2 years. I remember struggling to find a nMoL group, failing at Kyne’s Aegis, doing Fang Lair over and over and over again. Looking up at players using the rewards I wished for, never really believing that I’d ever get them. And yet, I tried and tried and finally succeeded. It was the best feeling I’ve ever had from the game. And now I help a friend do the same. The old reward system was amazing… and now, we get nothing. Except a momento for clearing the dungeon.

See, I will also say that the Beast personality got me into PvE content. However, I don't think that locking it behind a Challenger was appropriate at all. That was too much. If it were behind a vet completion, I'd take it. But locking it behind something even higher is much harder to swallow.

I annoyed the everliving [snip] out of my first guild because I wanted that. Without a dedicated prog group (and as adults, especially those with nonstandard work schedules), it's next to impossible to get people together for thigs like that. I'm lucky in that I have friends who will go through with me, but even then I know there have been several nodeaths that one of the others has thrown on the final boss, and then we just... don't go back to it.

There's a major difference between "I want this reward so I'm going to work towards it" and "I want this reward, but not as much as my friends, so they're not trying as hard as I am and I can't do this alone."

I'm also thinking of the players who are not able to do the content due to disability or other reasons. I do not think it is correct to bar some players from general-use cosmetics due to a skill gate. It is wrong to say "Your werewolf can't act appropriately since you can't complete the dungeon with a nodeath." I know I have problems with anxiety when I'm going for nodeaths - the time I got my MHK one, I was straight up having a panic attack through the whole final boss and I spent the next half hour on discord crying with my group because it affected me so negatively.

Besides, I don't think that the rewards you listed are at all equivalent - Beast personality looks feral and Zombie personality looks... like a zombie. If we were talking about things like the Godslayer mount and the Blazeborn Senche-Lion, then I'd agree.

Also, I'm one of those people who sees titles as a fitting reward. I've been working for years for Shield of the North because it's the most perfect title for my main, and it comes from my favorite trial to boot. I finally managed to get a group (after I've gotten two vKA progs cancelled on me twice now), and we're now making it to the third floor so it's finally looking like it might happen. And I know once I get it, I will never change that title again.

Agenericname

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This is another of those topics that comes up frequently, so I'll just take what I said before:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I just think that earned rewards should be appropriate to the content.

I'm much more okay than most people at just buying cosmetics because they're just cosmetics. What I think it not okay is skill gating things that are more generic, which is basically saying "you can't RP the way you want unless you can do this trifecta!"

Case in point: the skin from Ruins of Mazzatun is a good reward - it's the Amber Plasm skin, which is used in that dungeon only. It can't really be used outside of that unless you're doing a very specific my-character-went-through-Mazzatun RP session, so it seems fine.
I do not think the Worm Wizard personality is a good reward. Personalities are extremely useful for things like RP, and nobody in Fang Lair uses the Worm Wizard personality. The only association is 'necromancers.' In fact, the Scalecaller skin should be the Fang Lair reward since the NPCs in FL wear that skin and nobody in SCP does.

It's another issue that I've had with things like locking the fishing boat behind vKA (what does killing a vampire lord have to do with putting a boat in your house?), or even the perennial early acces rewards - I guarantee that people woudn't have as many issues with the beta monkey/tiger mount/sphere centurion if the generic version of those was the crown store one and the beta tester reward had a sparkly gold vest with an Ouroborous or something.

Yes, sometimes that will get people to do content - I know I annoyed the heck out of my guild trying to get that Beast personality for my werewolf - but that's not a general rule. A lot of times, it'll just lead to resentment. And yes, there are a lot of endgame raiders who are also big into housing or RP or whatever, but that's not a general rule.

So go ahead and put more rewards behind content since it's fun to earn things. But don't lock things useful for one game mode behind other modes. We get enough resentment for having PvP mythic leads locked behind things like mindless farming or PvE content.

Short answer: I love personalities, but I do not agree with gating something useful for RP behind high-level PvE content. Something like a personality should be accessible to everyone, and should be in the store of available for overland questing.

Skins and flashy mounts, however, are good high-level PvE rewards since they are mostly specific to the dungeon/trial in question.

And a longer explanation from a different thread as to why I feel this way:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like the problem here is that this is several different questions right now:

• How are the earnable rewards for content in game?
• How accessible are said rewards to players?

It does seem that there are fewer and fewer things available in game as most things are being shuttled to the Crown Store, which... I can't say I mind. I get my serotonin fix from getting the achievements, not from standing in the center of Mournhold trying to flex on random people. If that's the goal, why not just have each trifecta give a non-combat pet that's a floating neon sign that says "I'm better than u" so people can really see it?

As for the fact that things tend to go to the Crown Store over being earnable in game, yes it would be nice if they were earnable in game, but I'd rather make things accessible than gate rewards, particularly if a reward is useful for other groups of players (more on that below). What I do not agree with is stuffing them into Crown Crates. Anecdotal, but it seems like the drop rates for things on the last set of crates has made a turn for the worse, and I know most of us on the forums would rather buy things directly than have to jump through all of these RNG FOMO hoops that definitely make the store seem predatory to some people.

Now, as to accessibility of rewards, we need to remember on the forums that - for the most part - the forum base is much more experienced than the average player. We're here trying to argue that the XBox achievement metrics for dungeon clears is skewed, but it seems the fact that most of the playerbase isn't able to do the vet dungeons is inconceivable to a lot of people on the forums. I feel like this is why the "omg everything's too easy" argument here won't die is that the forums are an echo chamber of experienced players who can't understand what it's like to be casual. I remember on the PTS, I've even seen someone who was telling people like code to 'git gud' for saying that a certain dungeon mechanic may be too difficult for the average player.

There is a range of players in this game. As an example, I have a guildie who I see in guild chat almost every day and who's been playing longer than I have. They still have less than 1k CP, and I remember they were complaining a month or so ago about how the 'kill 20 WBs' weekly endeavor was inaccessible to them because it forced them to group up with people. Most other people I know hammered that one out solo the first day.

The big problem I have with rewards (like the MoS and FL personalities) is the fact that some of these rewards have uses other than flexing on people. I know I annoyed my guild when I first joined since I wanted to do nothing but MoS because I wanted that... for an RP character. There was also a lot of arguments about locking a useful furnishing like the fishing boat behind clearing a vet trial. Yes, on the forums, there are people who are in the top 1% or players who also do housing or RP or whatever, but that's definitely not a general rule. And I do not agree with putting a skill gate on the casual community. If a dungeon offers a flashy skin that's used on the enemies in there (like the Malatar purified or the Fang Lair sigils that inexplicably come from Scalecaller) that's one thing, but something that could be useful to a casual community like personalities or basic furnishings should be accessible to that community.

My example here would be, what if they released a mythic like pre-nerf Thrassians or Kilt that didn't lose stacks, making it basically a requirement in PvE... but then they locked one of the leads behind winning a ZOS-sponsored writing contest judged by leading fantasy authors? Sure, there are excellent fanfic writers who are into PvE, but there are also a lot of fanfic writers who are not and for whom that lead would be wasted. And we're already seeing the fury on the forum when a mythic useful in PvP and for build accessibility is locked behind 'sit here and steal from a lockbox.' People would rightly rage if the top-end PvErs had to switch gears and become creative storytellers and RPers just to get something they need.

The dungeon reward personalities have crown store or quest personalities that fill a similar niche. Zombie and Beast, Telvanni Magistrate and Worm Wizard. If I didn’t need to do endgame to get rewards for RP reasons (as mentioned, Dro-M’Athra skin got me into trials, Worm Wizard got me into dungeons… both are for my Dro-M’Athra) I would never have joined endgame.
Out of fairness though, I do think there should be a quest or purchase version in the same niche of rewards that have RP use. Distinct enough to be different but close enough to be switched out… I think Beast and Zombie is the best example of this.

The rewards of skins and personalities I think should stay at the Challenger level.
It’s an important stepping stone and it’s not so out of reach to someone who can do vet, compared to trifectas. Trifecta rewards deserve better as well but at least people are able to recognize the titles from them.

Just because I do endgame does not mean I want flashy gaudy rewards to flex on people, I come from being a casual of about 2 years. I remember struggling to find a nMoL group, failing at Kyne’s Aegis, doing Fang Lair over and over and over again. Looking up at players using the rewards I wished for, never really believing that I’d ever get them. And yet, I tried and tried and finally succeeded. It was the best feeling I’ve ever had from the game. And now I help a friend do the same. The old reward system was amazing… and now, we get nothing. Except a momento for clearing the dungeon.

See, I will also say that the Beast personality got me into PvE content. However, I don't think that locking it behind a Challenger was appropriate at all. That was too much. If it were behind a vet completion, I'd take it. But locking it behind something even higher is much harder to swallow.

I annoyed the everliving [snip] out of my first guild because I wanted that. Without a dedicated prog group (and as adults, especially those with nonstandard work schedules), it's next to impossible to get people together for thigs like that. I'm lucky in that I have friends who will go through with me, but even then I know there have been several nodeaths that one of the others has thrown on the final boss, and then we just... don't go back to it.

There's a major difference between "I want this reward so I'm going to work towards it" and "I want this reward, but not as much as my friends, so they're not trying as hard as I am and I can't do this alone."

I'm also thinking of the players who are not able to do the content due to disability or other reasons. I do not think it is correct to bar some players from general-use cosmetics due to a skill gate. It is wrong to say "Your werewolf can't act appropriately since you can't complete the dungeon with a nodeath." I know I have problems with anxiety when I'm going for nodeaths - the time I got my MHK one, I was straight up having a panic attack through the whole final boss and I spent the next half hour on discord crying with my group because it affected me so negatively.

Besides, I don't think that the rewards you listed are at all equivalent - Beast personality looks feral and Zombie personality looks... like a zombie. If we were talking about things like the Godslayer mount and the Blazeborn Senche-Lion, then I'd agree.

Also, I'm one of those people who sees titles as a fitting reward. I've been working for years for Shield of the North because it's the most perfect title for my main, and it comes from my favorite trial to boot. I finally managed to get a group (after I've gotten two vKA progs cancelled on me twice now), and we're now making it to the third floor so it's finally looking like it might happen. And I know once I get it, I will never change that title again.

There's no reward that they could put in challenging content and not be criticized for gating it in that content. Cosmetics are perhaps the least impactful, because they dont effect combat.

The first time I went for, and got, the MHK challenger, one of the players only had the use of one hand. It was something they didnt tell me about until much later on, not that they needed to. They used a special game pad. We cleared, then I went back them another 4-5 times to help complete it for their friends.

I could probably populate the entire Fang Lair dungeon now with the personalities from the number of times I've ran that to help people get it. At least half of my friends list is populated from those runs, or runs like that. Its a great experience to be a part of those runs, probably the best ESO has to offer, IMO.

A friend of mine used to get really anxious during the no death components. I think most people do feel some level of it, after a while it sort of goes away. I run trifectas regularly with that same person now. Some struggle with it more than others, but some amount is natural for most people, and it does subside.

Best of luck on your next one!

Ingenon

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

How about this, since you are only giving us 2 new dungeons this year, how about we take a shot at the bugs, balance and performance issues and make some real progress in those areas.

In the Studio Director's Letter https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/63363 it says "Q3: Focus on Quality-of-Life improvements and bug fixes." Hopefully ZOS will take a shot at the bugs.

I think quality of life improvements and bug fixes should be done throughout the year in an MMO, and the usual Q3 dungeons should not be removed. To me as an ESO Plus member it sounds like paying the same money over the year for less content.

ForzaRammer

2 dungeon only this year, good, i always feel 4 is a bit much