Destruction Staff in PVP is a Joke

thesarahandcompany

I've done testing and build editors. While I can get the same/similar tooltips on destro stuff and dualwield/two hand, you just lose so much with destruction staff. For example, two weapon traits on dualwield, extra spell damage on dualwield or two hand for proc sets, etc.

The upcoming PTS change where some warden skills are going to have additional scaling with destruction staff should be expanded upon to other classes.

malistorr

I don't know too much about it but there is some kind of cap on lightning staff attacks in PVP. I can equip 2 sets like Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver and proc both of their 5-piece bonuses and they won't do nearly the damage to characters as they do to monster in PVE. Back in the day I could get 25-32K ticks on a lightning staff heavy attack and with all the nerfs to sets and other things it's more like 8-15K now and most under 10k. So it's been nerfed in PVE as well but you can't get a tick higher than 3-4K in PVP. Maybe it's super-tanky toons with crazy resists or a hard cap on what certain weapons will do in PVP.

Firstmep

It's mainly just dual wield that's the issue, and not just in pvp.
Destro imho needs an overhaul to some of the lackluster passives, maybe some more generic bonuses, like the 10% pen to apply to all abilities not just destro.

thesarahandcompany

malistorr wrote: »

I don't know too much about it but there is some kind of cap on lightning staff attacks in PVP. I can equip 2 sets like Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver and proc both of their 5-piece bonuses and they won't do nearly the damage to characters as they do to monster in PVE. Back in the day I could get 25-32K ticks on a lightning staff heavy attack and with all the nerfs to sets and other things it's more like 8-15K now and most under 10k. So it's been nerfed in PVE as well but you can't get a tick higher than 3-4K in PVP. Maybe it's super-tanky toons with crazy resists or a hard cap on what certain weapons will do in PVP.

I'm not talking heavy attacks, I mean the passive lines.

Vevvev

Destruction isn't all that great unless you're going out of your way to use the abilities, but the one thing the staves do have going for them is ranged light attacks and magicka restore on heavy attacks. Fire staff heavy attacks with DK's Molten Armaments can slap pretty hard, but the fireballs from it are easy to dodge.

I only still use the staves since I'm already so hyper focused on melee I need some way to reach out and touch someone that isn't a little Restoration staff poke.

Beffagorn

Because dual wield is overtuned currently doesn't mean destro staffs are weak, not in the slightest. You still have your cheese 30k heavy attack builds, too.

The main reason you're seeing so many dual wield builds in pvp is simply because it's overtuned and fits better in the current meta.

Dual Wield Expert and Ruffian alone make them superior to most weapons in pvp as is, without even going into the active abilities.

Meanwhile other weapons still have passives like "Forceful" which are plain worthless in most content.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

YandereGirlfriend

Firstmep wrote: »

It's mainly just dual wield that's the issue, and not just in pvp.
Destro imho needs an overhaul to some of the lackluster passives, maybe some more generic bonuses, like the 10% pen to apply to all abilities not just destro.

And to have it apply BEFORE all your other sources of Penetration are considered rather than after.

p00tx

malistorr wrote: »

I don't know too much about it but there is some kind of cap on lightning staff attacks in PVP. I can equip 2 sets like Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver and proc both of their 5-piece bonuses and they won't do nearly the damage to characters as they do to monster in PVE. Back in the day I could get 25-32K ticks on a lightning staff heavy attack and with all the nerfs to sets and other things it's more like 8-15K now and most under 10k. So it's been nerfed in PVE as well but you can't get a tick higher than 3-4K in PVP. Maybe it's super-tanky toons with crazy resists or a hard cap on what certain weapons will do in PVP.

It's due to Battle Spirit, which is only present in PvP instances. It cuts your dmg against and healing done to players by half.

thesarahandcompany

I'd like to see the following reworks to the passives. But ofc understanding there might be needed adjustments.

Tri-focus

Equipping an inferno staff increases your spell and weapon damage by 284 (comparable to 2 swords on dualwield).

Lightning staff heavy attacks damage nearby enemies for X% of the damage done. Completing a fully-charged heavy attack with a lightning staff causes your next direct damage area of effect ability to deal 10% more damage.

Fully charged heavy attacks with an ice staff give a damage shield equal to X. Hitting an enemy player with an ice staff light attack increases their critical damage taken by 12% (comparable to two axes). Equipping an ice staff causes blocking to cost magicka instead of stamina. (That way you can't benefit from the stam blocking and the crit modifier at the same time)

Penetrating Magic

Elemental damage gains 2974 penetration when a destruction staff is equipped.

Elemental Force

Increase your chance to apply status effects by 185% when a destruction staff is equipped. Up from 100%, comparable to one off-hand dualwield weapon.

Ancient Knowledge

Revert back to 8%, respectively.



Desruction expert. When you successfully hit an enemy or player with a light or heavy attack, apply a stack of destruction that lasts for 10 seconds. Upon 5 stacks, restore X magicka. Light attacks give 1 stack. Fully-charged heavy attacks give 3 stacks. You can only gain a stack once ever X seconds.

Amerises

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I'd like to see the following reworks to the passives. But ofc understanding there might be needed adjustments.

Tri-focus

Equipping an inferno staff increases your spell and weapon damage by 284 (comparable to 2 swords on dualwield).

Lightning staff heavy attacks damage nearby enemies for X% of the damage done. Completing a fully-charged heavy attack with a lightning staff causes your next direct damage area of effect ability to deal 10% more damage.

Fully charged heavy attacks with an ice staff give a damage shield equal to X. Hitting an enemy player with an ice staff light attack increases their critical damage taken by 12% (comparable to two axes). Equipping an ice staff causes blocking to cost magicka instead of stamina. (That way you can't benefit from the stam blocking and the crit modifier at the same time)

Penetrating Magic

Elemental damage gains 2974 penetration when a destruction staff is equipped.

Elemental Force

Increase your chance to apply status effects by 185% when a destruction staff is equipped. Up from 100%, comparable to one off-hand dualwield weapon.

Ancient Knowledge

Revert back to 8%, respectively.



Desruction expert. When you successfully hit an enemy or player with a light or heavy attack, apply a stack of destruction that lasts for 10 seconds. Upon 5 stacks, restore X magicka. Light attacks give 1 stack. Fully-charged heavy attacks give 3 stacks. You can only gain a stack once ever X seconds.

Someone give this person a job on the dev team!

Turtle_Bot

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I'd like to see the following reworks to the passives. But ofc understanding there might be needed adjustments.

Tri-focus

Equipping an inferno staff increases your spell and weapon damage by 284 (comparable to 2 swords on dualwield).

Lightning staff heavy attacks damage nearby enemies for X% of the damage done. Completing a fully-charged heavy attack with a lightning staff causes your next direct damage area of effect ability to deal 10% more damage.

Fully charged heavy attacks with an ice staff give a damage shield equal to X. Hitting an enemy player with an ice staff light attack increases their critical damage taken by 12% (comparable to two axes). Equipping an ice staff causes blocking to cost magicka instead of stamina. (That way you can't benefit from the stam blocking and the crit modifier at the same time)

Penetrating Magic

Elemental damage gains 2974 penetration when a destruction staff is equipped.

Elemental Force

Increase your chance to apply status effects by 185% when a destruction staff is equipped. Up from 100%, comparable to one off-hand dualwield weapon.

Ancient Knowledge

Revert back to 8%, respectively.



Desruction expert. When you successfully hit an enemy or player with a light or heavy attack, apply a stack of destruction that lasts for 10 seconds. Upon 5 stacks, restore X magicka. Light attacks give 1 stack. Fully-charged heavy attacks give 3 stacks. You can only gain a stack once ever X seconds.

I like these.
Only a few things I would change on this.
1. make lightning staff increase crit chance while wielding it (comparable to wielding 2 daggers).

2. make penetrating magic work for all mag damage types, with a slightly higher boost to the matching elemental damage type of the equipped staff. For example, magic/elemental damage gains 2974 pen while a destro staff is equipped, elemental damage gains an additional 1000 pen for 3974 total pen gained if its type matches the type of the staff that is equipped.

3. ancient knowledge, revert it back to +8% for all magicka abilities, and increase that to +10% damage done if the damage type matches the staff type. e.g.
- lightning staff is +10% to shock damage and +8% magic/fire/ice damage
- flame staff is +10% to fire damage and +8% to shock/frost/magic damage
- frost staff is +10% to frost damage and +8% to fire/shock/magic damage

numbers can obviously be tweaked for balance, but the idea with ancient knowledge would really help with allowing classes to play more with their specific class elemental identity, while non-elemental magic damage doesn't entirely miss out either since being a generic damage type, it doesn't get the most min-maxed values that each specific element gets for wielding the corresponding staff, but in compensation for the lack of min-maxing it gains much more flexibility in what staff it wants to go with can be and can better choose on the other passives that will suit the build better.

MEBengalsFan2001

malistorr wrote: »

I don't know too much about it but there is some kind of cap on lightning staff attacks in PVP. I can equip 2 sets like Undaunted Infiltrator and Undaunted Unweaver and proc both of their 5-piece bonuses and they won't do nearly the damage to characters as they do to monster in PVE. Back in the day I could get 25-32K ticks on a lightning staff heavy attack and with all the nerfs to sets and other things it's more like 8-15K now and most under 10k. So it's been nerfed in PVE as well but you can't get a tick higher than 3-4K in PVP. Maybe it's super-tanky toons with crazy resists or a hard cap on what certain weapons will do in PVP.

The big difference in PVP with a heavy attack and light attacks is empower only works in PVE. To ensure PVE players don't lose as much empower does 80% vs the 40% it use to do.

That bonus damage and how sets use to work have been adjusted so that heavy attacks would not one shot a player in PVP. It is an improvement that is long over due.

As for PVE heavy attack builds are still viable.

moleculardrugs

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I've done testing and build editors. While I can get the same/similar tooltips on destro stuff and dualwield/two hand, you just lose so much with destruction staff. For example, two weapon traits on dualwield, extra spell damage on dualwield or two hand for proc sets, etc.

The upcoming PTS change where some warden skills are going to have additional scaling with destruction staff should be expanded upon to other classes.

I call my Destruction Staff in PvP my Obstruction Staff because it is so underpowered but I like being a magicka user 😅

Miracle19

Amerises wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I'd like to see the following reworks to the passives. But ofc understanding there might be needed adjustments.

Tri-focus

Equipping an inferno staff increases your spell and weapon damage by 284 (comparable to 2 swords on dualwield).

Lightning staff heavy attacks damage nearby enemies for X% of the damage done. Completing a fully-charged heavy attack with a lightning staff causes your next direct damage area of effect ability to deal 10% more damage.

Fully charged heavy attacks with an ice staff give a damage shield equal to X. Hitting an enemy player with an ice staff light attack increases their critical damage taken by 12% (comparable to two axes). Equipping an ice staff causes blocking to cost magicka instead of stamina. (That way you can't benefit from the stam blocking and the crit modifier at the same time)

Penetrating Magic

Elemental damage gains 2974 penetration when a destruction staff is equipped.

Elemental Force

Increase your chance to apply status effects by 185% when a destruction staff is equipped. Up from 100%, comparable to one off-hand dualwield weapon.

Ancient Knowledge

Revert back to 8%, respectively.



Desruction expert. When you successfully hit an enemy or player with a light or heavy attack, apply a stack of destruction that lasts for 10 seconds. Upon 5 stacks, restore X magicka. Light attacks give 1 stack. Fully-charged heavy attacks give 3 stacks. You can only gain a stack once ever X seconds.

Someone give this man a job on the dev team!

Agreed

Baconlad

I disagree.

....remove the different staff types altogether and only have destruction staff, resto and illusion staff. No more fire/ice/lightning. Make light attacks show a fire ball, heavy attacks show lightning strike, and blocking give a completely different ice effect. Like shards of ice blow up out of the ground around your toon. Then each individual skill represent a different element type.

-Force pulse A lightning bolt from the sky or a bolt of lightning from the staff that's instant similar to resto light attack.
-Wall of elements could be a fire effect on the ground like it is now.
-Impulse could be an aoe instant fire AOE burst. Or a copy of skoria might be neat for the ranged morph.
-The single target stun skill could be ice effect only but different from the stupid animation it is now as the stun or fire for dot morph.
-weakness to elements needs to be absolutely ice effects.

Or. Separate all three into their own lines...but that's a ton of work I think.

Also...if you don't want to use destruction skills. I think resto for a full class bar should be viable as DPS. Atleast for PvP.

And add an illusion staff! Similar to resto but more CCs. And alternate for of self defense.

Then add a DW/ two hander passive that changes the return from stamina to magical return on heavies.

PhoenixGrey

Destro staff is not a weapon of choice for stamina nightblade

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

LittlePinkDot

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I've done testing and build editors. While I can get the same/similar tooltips on destro stuff and dualwield/two hand, you just lose so much with destruction staff. For example, two weapon traits on dualwield, extra spell damage on dualwield or two hand for proc sets, etc.

The upcoming PTS change where some warden skills are going to have additional scaling with destruction staff should be expanded upon to other classes.

I've only just come back to eso recently. And don't know much about the new hybridization.. But I realized that if I'm a ranged magicka player, I can't land light attacks with a melee weapon.

OnGodiDoDis

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

I've done testing and build editors. While I can get the same/similar tooltips on destro stuff and dualwield/two hand, you just lose so much with destruction staff. For example, two weapon traits on dualwield, extra spell damage on dualwield or two hand for proc sets, etc.

The upcoming PTS change where some warden skills are going to have additional scaling with destruction staff should be expanded upon to other classes.

Melee weapons always offered more damage scaling. I believe the just way of making destro more competitive would be to make the Penetrating Magic passive apply to all skills that deal magic/elemental damage, and have it be a flat amount of pen, perhaps 2-3k. Also, changing the bonuses of destro staves would be nice. This would free up a trait option for mag toons, instead of having to use sharpened.

SoulwayFilth

Making the pen work for all magic & upping some bonuses a bit would help. I don't feel you can argue an advantage of being ranged. The ability to be cc immune or root immune + the speed that can be obtained in this game makes it irrelevant. Unless you are a sorc or nb with cloak, you can't really kite & even they are countered easy by these basic principles.

I have played ranged magnb for quiet a while & a fight pretty much never ends up ranged, always me with a staff & opponent in melee range. I can cloak to shift position to range & within seconds my opponent is at my feet again. Years ago you could kite well, but not today.

Minalan

I like the idea of magic and specific element damage instead of AOE and single target.

Magicka Sorc should be using lightning staves, but you miss out on a lot of single target spell damage without a fire staff.

Fix that, it’s just one of many things broken on the class. We shouldn’t have to choose between energized passive 5% on light/heavy attacks or 8% single target damage.

Baconlad

I agree. Changing the passive to all magic damage would be better than just destro magics. And changing the staff passive from 10% to single or aoe to something different. I'm down.

OBJnoob

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

Making the pen work for all magic & upping some bonuses a bit would help. I don't feel you can argue an advantage of being ranged. The ability to be cc immune or root immune + the speed that can be obtained in this game makes it irrelevant. Unless you are a sorc or nb with cloak, you can't really kite & even they are countered easy by these basic principles.

I have played ranged magnb for quiet a while & a fight pretty much never ends up ranged, always me with a staff & opponent in melee range. I can cloak to shift position to range & within seconds my opponent is at my feet again. Years ago you could kite well, but not today.

I agree with everything you said about kiting. There's an important detail you left out though that works against you. Some classes/weapons can kill people from the safety of castle walls and others can not. This is a clear advantage and should be compensated for in some way. Every fight isn't a duel. In fact the vast majority are not.

Luede

since most siege weapons are far more effective than the capabilities of the ranged magika classes, it doesn't matter if a few people can shoot off the wall or not.

in cyrodiil you build your setup depending on what you want to play. ask the great magika classes how good they are in the tower run.

xDeusEJRx

Yeah destro is pretty laughable. I only use destro in PVP as a back bar weapon. Like I might use ice staff back bar for magicka blocking or access to major beach via weakness to elements. Other than that, its' not that good to use anymore

Turtle_Bot

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

Making the pen work for all magic & upping some bonuses a bit would help. I don't feel you can argue an advantage of being ranged. The ability to be cc immune or root immune + the speed that can be obtained in this game makes it irrelevant. Unless you are a sorc or nb with cloak, you can't really kite & even they are countered easy by these basic principles.

I have played ranged magnb for quiet a while & a fight pretty much never ends up ranged, always me with a staff & opponent in melee range. I can cloak to shift position to range & within seconds my opponent is at my feet again. Years ago you could kite well, but not today.

Agreed. the fight never stays range for long with everything that has been added over the past year or so. Only time the range feels truly advantageous again is in no proc/no cp where there's a massive drop in move speed and mitigation from the lack of CP bonuses and proc sets, but outside of that niche scenario which can be somewhat mitigated via swift jewelry traits (and maybe wildhunt ring?), its rough for any range build currently outside of rangeplar which is doing well with its good range burst as well as a very good defensive kit and now bow sorc which has finally been figured out in the past week (even then nb and probably stamden do the build better).

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

SoulwayFilth wrote: »

Making the pen work for all magic & upping some bonuses a bit would help. I don't feel you can argue an advantage of being ranged. The ability to be cc immune or root immune + the speed that can be obtained in this game makes it irrelevant. Unless you are a sorc or nb with cloak, you can't really kite & even they are countered easy by these basic principles.

I have played ranged magnb for quiet a while & a fight pretty much never ends up ranged, always me with a staff & opponent in melee range. I can cloak to shift position to range & within seconds my opponent is at my feet again. Years ago you could kite well, but not today.

I agree with everything you said about kiting. There's an important detail you left out though that works against you. Some classes/weapons can kill people from the safety of castle walls and others can not. This is a clear advantage and should be compensated for in some way. Every fight isn't a duel. In fact the vast majority are not.

fair point about the safety of the walls, but that has it counters now with the free mitigation, very strong healing and cross healing and dodge rolling being basically free (even with its negligeable ramping cost) from CP passives, as well as set bonuses and bonus effects added to a lot of skills. Most players now barely die to range damage from walls outside of a coordinated burst with sieges or a dark convergence bomb or both, range abilities just don't do enough damage on their own anymore outside of the full damage snipe blade specs and even then, they struggle against any tanky or remotely competent player who keeps their buffs up, keeps moving and dodge rolls/line of sights/moves out of range.