What dual wield abilities in your opinion need buffs?

francesinhalover

Hi beautiful people. How are all of you? I hope you can chose one of this options and share your opinions. I am probably wrong with what i might say, so please be understanding that i'm human and i make mistakes.

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Two handed is Really strong atm and dual wield at Least for me feels really weak.

- Rapid strikes just has horrible damage people even use blood thirst a healing ability instead...3% extra dmg per hit? how does that make a difference?. Other classes spammables like Sorcerer Crystal Weapon is insanely stronger compared to it. Only utility i see on rapid strikes is to reach full stacks of adv yokeda faster. Granted you might die with rapid because you are stuck in a 0.6 animation.

- Rending slashes damage isn't that good either, deadly cloak easily surpasses it. but i understand rending is used on pvp?? so maybe it can't be too strong.

- Deadly cloak is really strong atm , visually looks horrible though. That being said for me quick cloak is really weak.

- Steel tornado is used for aoe damage, but the skills damage isn't that good. I don't see much of a reason to use it instead of whirlling blades.

- Dual wield ultimate...Do people use this outside of maybe pvp? Do people use dual wield on pvp... I only see two handed.

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Anyways hope i wasn't rude or anything, big hug to everyone

flying Dagger or shrouded Dagger - I couldn't because of lack of space
compared to the rest i felt those were the less important because shrouded is going to remain weak because there's a arena set. Unless the arena set is nerfed.
And flying because it is balanced for pvp. Tbh i think the fighters guild spammable silver shards, should do what flying dagger does.
And flying should just do better single target damage with a twist because rapid strikes just sucks.

ESO_Nightingale

Rend

Ult is kinda bad.

Grandchamp1989

Rapid Strikes

Wouldn't mind for the spammable to be better.

Fennwitty

Honestly most of them are lackluster in the current game.

There are use cases for dual wield, but two-hand is so much easier, more powerful and simpler it's not even a real contest (PvE or PvP).

ZoS has tweaked several of them but it's not changing heart of the skills. They all kind of feel different from each other in a bad way.

The ultimates are just ... sad.

Araneae6537

Hmm, everything, except preferably not blade cloak because I don’t like the concept, look or sound of it so I’m not going to use it anyway. I enjoy the feel of dual wield and would like it to be on par with 2H but ideally each with different strengths.

ArchMikem

Rapid Strikes

You can get Rend's tooltip pretty up there when buffing damage over time done, direct damage done etc. Sets like Automaton and Deadly Strike etc. Really good for a DoT build, plus it's an emergency self heal. I've enjoyed it when using it. It's like Toxic Barrage, except you can keep attacking while it ticks.

I think Rapid Strikes is what needs the most love, being the designated spammable. It's pretty clunky to with how it works, locking you into the animation even if the first or second hit finishes the target, you continue thrusting your weapons anyway.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

ArchMikem wrote: »

You can get Rend's tooltip pretty up there when buffing damage over time done, direct damage done etc. Sets like Automaton and Deadly Strike etc. Really good for a DoT build, plus it's an emergency self heal. I've enjoyed it when using it. It's like Toxic Barrage, except you can keep attacking while it ticks.

I think Rapid Strikes is what needs the most love, being the designated spammable. It's pretty clunky to with how it works, locking you into the animation even if the first or second hit finishes the target, you continue thrusting your weapons anyway.

I use rapid a lot because of advancing yokeda... Its weird how with crystal weapon its instant cast skill,does 11k dmg ,plus 1k penetration. (Ignoring self heal, 2% extra dmg and other passives)

Meanwhile rapidstrikes does 12k. 0.6 channel time.

MudcrabAttack

Deadly Cloak

Most are in need of a buff, or feel relatively weak now

Back bar dual wield could use a buff. Deadly cloak is proccing each of the infused enchantments every 4 seconds instead of 2, and the burning or poison status dps is much lower when that happens. Stampede is putting out a couple thousand more dps these days

Rending slashes is really low dps compared to carve, why not let the rending slashes bleed stack the same way?

Steel tornado seems like bland damage, and the whirling blades has decent execute but the radius feels too small to be effective.

phaneub17_ESO

Rapid Strikes

I'm not asking for it to be like Biting Jabs, but the way the animation plays it should be able to hit adjacent targets.

merpins

I just think certain skill lines could use some reworks: dual wield in weapons, psijic order skill line since most skills sit unused... I mean sure, a lot of flavor and backstory comes from some skills in game, namely the psijic order skills, but this is an mmo. Dead skills are dead skills and there are a lot of dead skills.

An alternative could be adding a third morph to every skill in the game, addressing morphs of skills that aren't used at all and possibly leaving one morph on skills that just aren't touched to show what the skill used to be. Dunno.

tenryuta

after using rapid strike 9000+ times(real number less than that), it gets boring... and why dw and 2h have execute on their aoe's is beyond me<_<(wish dw had combo skills similar to tera, but with same button as first skill like in astellia, and astellia custom combos)

geonsocal

Flying Blade...the damage on the second activation needs to be increased or a guaranteed critical strike...

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Most are in need of a buff, or feel relatively weak now

Back bar dual wield could use a buff. Deadly cloak is proccing each of the infused enchantments every 4 seconds instead of 2, and the burning or poison status dps is much lower when that happens. Stampede is putting out a couple thousand more dps these days

Rending slashes is really low dps compared to carve, why not let the rending slashes bleed stack the same way?

Steel tornado seems like bland damage, and the whirling blades has decent execute but the radius feels too small to be effective.

How many infused procs does rending slashes do?

MudcrabAttack

Deadly Cloak

francesinhalover wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Most are in need of a buff, or feel relatively weak now

Back bar dual wield could use a buff. Deadly cloak is proccing each of the infused enchantments every 4 seconds instead of 2, and the burning or poison status dps is much lower when that happens. Stampede is putting out a couple thousand more dps these days

Rending slashes is really low dps compared to carve, why not let the rending slashes bleed stack the same way?

Steel tornado seems like bland damage, and the whirling blades has decent execute but the radius feels too small to be effective.

How many infused procs does rending slashes do?

Single target dots from weapon skills won’t proc the enchantments, but the direct damage parts of rending slashes would, along with the dual wield weapon attacks


I mentioned the back bar situation felt weak because of the interplay between traits/enchantments/skills. The front bar dual wield situation seems ok lately since charged got a buff. Even with poison and fire proccing on non-infused weapons, charged adds a significant amount of status damage if you use it on just one of the weapons, the way an axe used to add a significant amount of bleed damage if you only had one instead of two.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not asking for it to be like Biting Jabs, but the way the animation plays it should be able to hit adjacent targets.

I agree 1000%, im not sure why they left dw skills so weak for years

dinokstrunz

Thrive in Chaos

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

dinokstrunz

Thrive in Chaos

francesinhalover wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

It was much cheaper and did more damage. Really solid spammable for pve back around Summerset.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

dinokstrunz wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

It was much cheaper and did more damage. Really solid spammable for pve back around Summerset.

ugh man, that hurts to know

Everest_Lionheart

Uh, all of them. DW skills are only as good as the ability altering weapons you pair them with.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Rapid Strikes

Imagine if they just turned Rapid Strikes to be identical in function and power to Templar Jabs (AoE, Direct Damage, highest damage spammable by a long shot and extremely cheap, no targeting required so channeling doesn't get canceled like wrecking blow and snipe does if enemy moves out of reticle)... Just imagine how beautifully op every class could be then.

Don't worry Templars- you'll still do the most damage and jabs be unique to you because you have passives that make it deal even more mass damage, as well as passive Major Savagery or self healing from activation.

It'd be night and day the difference in how many people you see using dual wield immediately.

*Pulls out Maelstrom Daggers if that change would actually ever happen and backbar Master Daggers* lol

fred4

francesinhalover wrote: »

Two handed is Really strong atm

I agree, but I'll play devil's advocate.

Rapid strikes just has horrible damage people even use blood thirst a healing ability instead

EDIT: OK, I get it, you only have an issue with the Rapid Strikes morph in particular. I probably agree or I can't really comment, because as a solo player and PvPer Bloodthirst was always more attractive to me. Other PvPers typically went for the Rapid Strikes morph in the past, though. I remember from reviewing combat logs long ago, but these days I don't see it much at all anymore.

Bloodthirst is pretty good, if you insist on doing solo PvE with dual-wield. Someone asked for a single bar dual-wield build recently and I made one and took it into vMA for testing. Worked as main source of healing. Also this skill gets buffed by Deadly Strike, so if you want to make a DOT build, it's probably a good option as a spammable. I believe the tooltip on my vMA stamblade came to 13.6K in total with Deadly and Hunding's, or at least the UESP build editor said so.

...3% extra dmg per hit? how does that make a difference?

Isn't that on an escalating basis? I'm not sure, but it may be more than you think.

Only utility i see on rapid strikes is to reach full stacks of adv yokeda faster.

Or Mechanical Acuity. Or how about the fact that it's a good way to attack DKs that used Corrosive Armor in PvP. This type of build used to be the bane of my DK when DW was more popular in the past, because the large number of small hits basically yield full damage through Corrosive's damage cap. These days you don't really see it anymore, but I always considered it a good skill for stamsorcs. With nerfs to crit chance, stamsorc healing is a bit of a problem these days. Running Flurry should be a way to get more reliable heals as a stamsorc, because the chances that you crit every second is much higher than with other skills. That said, you do have issues connecting all hits with a PvPer.

Granted you might die with rapid because you are stuck in a 0.6 animation.

Not with Bloodthirst. Same as Puncturing Sweeps, albeit single target, but that's totally viable in certain places, notably vMA or for Imperial City boss farming. Or are you talking about PvP?

- Rending slashes damage isn't that good either, deadly cloak easily surpasses it. but i understand rending is used on pvp?? so maybe it can't be too strong.

It was used in PvP in the past. IMO class / skill DOTs could be a little stronger in PvP again, though maybe not (mag) DK DOTs.

Deadly cloak is really strong atm , visually looks horrible though. That being said for me quick cloak is really weak.

They've changed this skill so many times, and the Blackrose DW set, I'm not sure what it does anymore. Speed and snare removal are certainly good in PvP. I've used both morphs in the distant past.

Steel tornado is used for aoe damage, but the skills damage isn't that good.

The greater range made it one of THE go to skills in the past in PvP and PvE alike. They probably couldn't unnerf that. Maybe it's time to review it. Not sure.

Dual wield ultimate...Do people use this outside of maybe pvp?

Does anyone use it in ANY content? The problem used to be that it had a weird narrow cone compared to Dawnbreaker, but I think they fixed that. It used to be a decent option for solo PvE - Deltia recommended it in the distant past. I guess that was before Pale Order made you heal from everything.

Do people use dual wield on pvp... I only see two handed.

Oh yes, they do. For the passives on magicka and stamina classes alike, e.g. 1x Nirn weapon + 1x Sharpened weapon tends to marginally beat out 2H for raw stats. For the Whirling Blades execute against dodge rolling players. For example melee stamblades can be played as 2H (front) / bow (back bar) or DW (front) / 2H (back bar). If you use a Vateshran 2H back bar, the Vateshran proc carries over to heavy attacks performed with DW on the front bar. Those heavy attacks are quicker, nicer to play. This, I am told, is actually one of the meta ways to play stam(blade).

You also left out the Shrouded Daggers skill. I am not a fan of Flying Blade, but I used to love Shrouded Daggers in vMA in the past. Then it got nerfed as far as I remember. It is also extremely costly now. However there's Vateshran DW weapons and those are pretty insane in the right situation. A guy in another thread showed a 90K trial dummy parse with a single-bar DW build using those daggers. They're situational, but they also work in PvP. I'm experimenting with them.

fred4

dinokstrunz wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

It was much cheaper and did more damage. Really solid spammable for pve back around Summerset.

Vateshran DW weapons. <cough>

fred4

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Uh, all of them. DW skills are only as good as the ability altering weapons you pair them with.

Yeah, there's a lot of truth in that.

fred4

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I just think certain skill lines could use some reworks: dual wield in weapons, psijic order skill line since most skills sit unused... I mean sure, a lot of flavor and backstory comes from some skills in game, namely the psijic order skills, but this is an mmo. Dead skills are dead skills and there are a lot of dead skills.

The Psijic skill line? Nah. I know it's off topic, but let's go over that:

Temporal Guard is a great PvP back bar ultimate, both actively and passively.

Precognition is the ultimate you use to get through some dungeons solo, as it breaks you out of some otherwise unbreakable stuns / unavoidable deaths:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmdFvTrlaxQ

Race Against Time is a staple in PvP. Heavily used. The other morph can be used for PvE or for certain things in PvP, such as bombing.

Meditate is also used in PvP. I don't see it all that often anymore, but as PvP is bursty it is a very good way to up your damage at the expense of regular sustain. There has also been a really nifty build based around this skill, capitalising on the fact that players will bash you when they see you meditating, which activates the Cyrodiil's Light set. I suppose the change to Major Protection has hurt this skill, though.

Elemental Weapon and Crushing Weapon can be used to generate burst in PvP, due to their delayed nature. They're the kind of subtle skills you may not notice, unless you look at combat logs. Changes a bit with the meta, but for example one shot stamsorcs used this skill last summer a lot. Also an option for magicka nightblades and magsorcs.

Time stop was pretty dominant in PvP when it came out. I don't see it often now, but honestly that's more a sign of the game being balanced. Many things are viable and I'm usually in IC, rather than Cyrodiil, where this skill is more useful. I ran into a recently and still found it dangerous enough to think it worthwhile for the attacker.

Mend Wounds I have no idea about, but that's partly cause I don't play healers.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

fred4 wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

Two handed is Really strong atm

I agree, but I'll play devil's advocate.

Rapid strikes just has horrible damage people even use blood thirst a healing ability instead

EDIT: OK, I get it, you only have an issue with the Rapid Strikes morph in particular. I probably agree or I can't really comment, because as a solo player and PvPer Bloodthirst was always more attractive to me. Other PvPers typically went for the Rapid Strikes morph in the past, though. I remember from reviewing combat logs long ago, but these days I don't see it much at all anymore.

Bloodthirst is pretty good, if you insist on doing solo PvE with dual-wield. Someone asked for a single bar dual-wield build recently and I made one and took it into vMA for testing. Worked as main source of healing. Also this skill gets buffed by Deadly Strike, so if you want to make a DOT build, it's probably a good option as a spammable. I believe the tooltip on my vMA stamblade came to 13.6K in total with Deadly and Hunding's, or at least the UESP build editor said so.

...3% extra dmg per hit? how does that make a difference?

Isn't that on an escalating basis? I'm not sure, but it may be more than you think.

Only utility i see on rapid strikes is to reach full stacks of adv yokeda faster.

Or Mechanical Acuity. Or how about the fact that it's a good way to attack DKs that used Corrosive Armor in PvP. This type of build used to be the bane of my DK when DW was more popular in the past, because the large number of small hits basically yield full damage through Corrosive's damage cap. These days you don't really see it anymore, but I always considered it a good skill for stamsorcs. With nerfs to crit chance, stamsorc healing is a bit of a problem these days. Running Flurry should be a way to get more reliable heals as a stamsorc, because the chances that you crit every second is much higher than with other skills. That said, you do have issues connecting all hits with a PvPer.

Granted you might die with rapid because you are stuck in a 0.6 animation.

Not with Bloodthirst. Same as Puncturing Sweeps, albeit single target, but that's totally viable in certain places, notably vMA or for Imperial City boss farming. Or are you talking about PvP?

- Rending slashes damage isn't that good either, deadly cloak easily surpasses it. but i understand rending is used on pvp?? so maybe it can't be too strong.

It was used in PvP in the past. IMO class / skill DOTs could be a little stronger in PvP again, though maybe not (mag) DK DOTs.

Deadly cloak is really strong atm , visually looks horrible though. That being said for me quick cloak is really weak.

They've changed this skill so many times, and the Blackrose DW set, I'm not sure what it does anymore. Speed and snare removal are certainly good in PvP. I've used both morphs in the distant past.

Steel tornado is used for aoe damage, but the skills damage isn't that good.

The greater range made it one of THE go to skills in the past in PvP and PvE alike. They probably couldn't unnerf that. Maybe it's time to review it. Not sure.

Dual wield ultimate...Do people use this outside of maybe pvp?

Does anyone use it in ANY content? The problem used to be that it had a weird narrow cone compared to Dawnbreaker, but I think they fixed that. It used to be a decent option for solo PvE - Deltia recommended it in the distant past. I guess that was before Pale Order made you heal from everything.

Do people use dual wield on pvp... I only see two handed.

Oh yes, they do. For the passives on magicka and stamina classes alike, e.g. 1x Nirn weapon + 1x Sharpened weapon tends to marginally beat out 2H for raw stats. For the Whirling Blades execute against dodge rolling players. For example melee stamblades can be played as 2H (front) / bow (back bar) or DW (front) / 2H (back bar). If you use a Vateshran 2H back bar, the Vateshran proc carries over to heavy attacks performed with DW on the front bar. Those heavy attacks are quicker, nicer to play. This, I am told, is actually one of the meta ways to play stam(blade).

You also left out the Shrouded Daggers skill. I am not a fan of Flying Blade, but I used to love Shrouded Daggers in vMA in the past. Then it got nerfed as far as I remember. It is also extremely costly now. However there's Vateshran DW weapons and those are pretty insane in the right situation. A guy in another thread showed a 90K trial dummy parse with a single-bar DW build using those daggers. They're situational, but they also work in PvP. I'm experimenting with them.

No i have several issues with flurry, it should be more like jabs, hit more enemies. Maybe increased range. But i know devs wont rework it that way.

The issue is dw might have a decent crit passive, but the skills themselves are lackluster.

Shrouded sucks in general, the fighters guild spammable does more damage.
Flying blade used to be ny main spammable but now its trash because of pvp.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

fred4 wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

It was much cheaper and did more damage. Really solid spammable for pve back around Summerset.

Vateshran DW weapons. <cough>

So a skill should be garbage because a set makes it strong? Just nerf the set. Not that it matters two handed is the meta now

Everest_Lionheart

francesinhalover wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

It was much cheaper and did more damage. Really solid spammable for pve back around Summerset.

Vateshran DW weapons. <cough>

So a skill should be garbage because a set makes it strong? Just nerf the set. Not that it matters two handed is the meta now

2H is meta because of buffs to stampede making it one of the best dots in the game. 2H also had the superior execute. The carve bleed stacks are also a huge in entice to running 2H and can be used as semi spamable if needed and solo builds are better of with the other morph. 2H spamable is kind of awful though with it’s channel time and long wind up making it difficult to land in any mobile fight.

What killed DW was needing the bleed damage from axes. Bring back that extra bleed damage and there may be a reason to choose DW again.

Also for what it’s worth RS is still a solid spamable but only if you pair it with deadly and can maintain solid time on target. You need all the hits to land of course so that’s to caveat.

That being said I still use DW on my stamcro (107k) and stamblade (104k) but only for rending slashes and deadly cloak the rest of the skills I use are class based and DW is much easier to weave than 2H. Still have 2H back bar because their class dots outclass DW by so much it’s not even funny.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

dinokstrunz wrote: »

Probably the ult it's probably the worst or one of the worst ults in the game.

Wishful thinking bring back old shrouded dagger, god that skill was so much fun to use back in the day.

How was shrouded back in the day? Sorry for asking.
Also i agree

It was much cheaper and did more damage. Really solid spammable for pve back around Summerset.

Vateshran DW weapons. <cough>

So a skill should be garbage because a set makes it strong? Just nerf the set. Not that it matters two handed is the meta now

2H is meta because of buffs to stampede making it one of the best dots in the game. 2H also had the superior execute. The carve bleed stacks are also a huge in entice to running 2H and can be used as semi spamable if needed and solo builds are better of with the other morph. 2H spamable is kind of awful though with it’s channel time and long wind up making it difficult to land in any mobile fight.

What killed DW was needing the bleed damage from axes. Bring back that extra bleed damage and there may be a reason to choose DW again.

Also for what it’s worth RS is still a solid spamable but only if you pair it with deadly and can maintain solid time on target. You need all the hits to land of course so that’s to caveat.

That being said I still use DW on my stamcro (107k) and stamblade (104k) but only for rending slashes and deadly cloak the rest of the skills I use are class based and DW is much easier to weave than 2H. Still have 2H back bar because their class dots outclass DW by so much it’s not even funny.

Deadly doesnt buff rapid, rapid isnt a dot. Ah just checked, im not sure rapid is a channeled ability either, but if it truly buffs rapid,

I wonder what would give me more dps deadly or pillar

Stx

Rend

Deadly does buff rapid strikes.

As for the poll. I didn't see an option for flying Dagger or shrouded Dagger, so I picked the elite.

Both could definitely use some buffs.

francesinhalover

Rapid Strikes

Stx wrote: »

Deadly does buff rapid strikes.

As for the poll. I didn't see an option for flying Dagger or shrouded Dagger, so I picked the elite.

Both could definitely use some buffs.

I know it hurts me so much, but i couldn't because of lack of space.

compared to the rest i felt those were the less important because shrouded is going to remain weak because there's a arena set.
and flying because it is balanced for pvp.
tbh i think the fighters guild spammable silver shards, should do what flying dagger does.

and flying should just do better single target damage with a twist.
id also buff shrouded dmg and nerf the set a little bit.
so let's say crystal weapons does 10k shrouded does 8k . id make shrouded do 9k and flying dagger 10k.
hard to buff them too much because of the arena set.