Hybrid Changes

DrSlaughtr

Tannus15 wrote: »

@TheEndBringer I think this is where a big part of the problem is.

Lets look at attributes to start.

When I started playing the game i split my attributes in a 2/1/1 ratio. I was "focusing" on stam so 2 attributes would go into stamina and 1 to health and 1 to mag.
This seemed about right to me.

Now skills.
I also searing strike over venomous claw, because you know, healing and damage is better than just damage right? And that's cool with engulfing flames too, i can cast those 2 from my mag pool and then i'm good for spamming wrecking blow. What's on the back bar you ask? another 2h sword! I can run rally for heals and buffs, I'm a genius. I'm certainly not feeling any pain since i have a decent amount of mag, a good amount of stam and plenty of health. I can solo a dolmen and some world bosses!

What happens when i take this build into a dungeon? I'm bad. I do terrible damage and I have no idea. I've got 34 attributes in stam, 16 health, 16 mag and i'm running 2 stat regen drink. My jewels are all robust stam regen, and my skills are a random collection of whatever.

This the problem with the current system. I'm doing what looks fun and overland isn't presenting any difficulty. I do a dungeon and i have no idea that my dps sucks since there is no addon for feedback. if the other dps is good it's an easy clear, and if they are another me it's a real struggle.

this is the core of my argument as we why the game needs to be more hybrid friendly. the game has terrible feedback systems without addons and the "correct" way to play is unintuitive. everyone who understands the game knows you want to put 64 points in a stat and only use abilities that use that stat.

For years I ran normal trials for a casual social guild and I made a point to never tell people they are "doing it wrong" unless they asked first, and I saw a shocking amount of lightning staff heavy attack builds running stamina sets and random skills. Stamplars with Puncturing Sweep because self heals.

The "floor" of this game is so low a lot of people don't understand. People struggle with overland. They will continue to make "bad" decisions but there is no reason to continue to punish them for it.

Respectfully, what you just said is your hybrid build performs well in easy mode overland but in more difficult content it doesn't.

This is the game. Hybrid or pure, a poor build isn't going to work the same across all game modes and they shouldn't dumb the game down to allow it because it will wreck the game for experienced players.

A 2 1 1 attribute ratio is just a bad decision all around for any damage set up outside of solo play, which it seems you mostly do. In a dungeon and especially a trial, even on member, you don't need to buff your health. You can also go max Stam or mag then run pots for the other bar. You're going to get buffed by the other players.

Play your own way is great until the game suffers due to being watered down. They will lose all those experienced players who pay the bills, ya know?

Tannus15

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@TheEndBringer I think this is where a big part of the problem is.

Lets look at attributes to start.

When I started playing the game i split my attributes in a 2/1/1 ratio. I was "focusing" on stam so 2 attributes would go into stamina and 1 to health and 1 to mag.
This seemed about right to me.

Now skills.
I also searing strike over venomous claw, because you know, healing and damage is better than just damage right? And that's cool with engulfing flames too, i can cast those 2 from my mag pool and then i'm good for spamming wrecking blow. What's on the back bar you ask? another 2h sword! I can run rally for heals and buffs, I'm a genius. I'm certainly not feeling any pain since i have a decent amount of mag, a good amount of stam and plenty of health. I can solo a dolmen and some world bosses!

What happens when i take this build into a dungeon? I'm bad. I do terrible damage and I have no idea. I've got 34 attributes in stam, 16 health, 16 mag and i'm running 2 stat regen drink. My jewels are all robust stam regen, and my skills are a random collection of whatever.

This the problem with the current system. I'm doing what looks fun and overland isn't presenting any difficulty. I do a dungeon and i have no idea that my dps sucks since there is no addon for feedback. if the other dps is good it's an easy clear, and if they are another me it's a real struggle.

this is the core of my argument as we why the game needs to be more hybrid friendly. the game has terrible feedback systems without addons and the "correct" way to play is unintuitive. everyone who understands the game knows you want to put 64 points in a stat and only use abilities that use that stat.

For years I ran normal trials for a casual social guild and I made a point to never tell people they are "doing it wrong" unless they asked first, and I saw a shocking amount of lightning staff heavy attack builds running stamina sets and random skills. Stamplars with Puncturing Sweep because self heals.

The "floor" of this game is so low a lot of people don't understand. People struggle with overland. They will continue to make "bad" decisions but there is no reason to continue to punish them for it.

Respectfully, what you just said is your hybrid build performs well in easy mode overland but in more difficult content it doesn't.

This is the game. Hybrid or pure, a poor build isn't going to work the same across all game modes and they shouldn't dumb the game down to allow it because it will wreck the game for experienced players.

A 2 1 1 attribute ratio is just a bad decision all around for any damage set up outside of solo play, which it seems you mostly do. In a dungeon and especially a trial, even on member, you don't need to buff your health. You can also go max Stam or mag then run pots for the other bar. You're going to get buffed by the other players.

Play your own way is great until the game suffers due to being watered down. They will lose all those experienced players who pay the bills, ya know?

That's literally my point.

This terrible "build" was what felt natural. Evenly distributing stats and skills, I didn't even go into what gear I was using back then. It's bad enough that my max stat is significantly lower than it should be, but i'm using dps skills from my off stat because that looked like a good idea.
This is normal for the casual player base.

Why do you think they introduced the "skill advisor"?

There are some very basic things ZoS can do to not punish people for these decisions which ALSO won't "ruin" the game for experianced players.

The first of step is to stop punishing someone for wearing the wrong armour type. You want to wear medium armour so you're no so squishy and you also want to use your class skills. Cool, we can do that. You want to wear that cool set because it's what dropped in the zone you just completed and it summons a monster that pukes on stuff.
Ok, sure, we can make sure at least that it helps your dps.

That's where we are now. You don't suck AS MUCH for making uninformed choices.

By the time someone is looking at doing trials I expect they will know people who will help them be less bad. But starting to do normal dungeons for the first time? Good luck.

DepressiveCrab

Tannus15 wrote: »

They will continue to make "bad" decisions but there is no reason to continue to punish them for it.

Ok, we play the game, but "game" and "pleasure" isnt excuse for pressing random buttons and kill them all, its not solo RPG with GodMod. Can you have some respect for people, dont you think, that all of them cant think a little about them builds?
Changing game to press F to win is freaking problem. And you offer to do this. God, Ill cry now, how low people have fallen, if they want get all for free instead of think a little.
Power shouldnt be free because it is not interesting!

In a nutshell: we SHOULD punish people for bad decisions. Otherwise ESO will become the worst MMO ever. (or Skyrim on the easiest difficulty level). And how can they understand, that it was bad decision, if they wouldnt be punished?

DrSlaughtr

Tannus15 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@TheEndBringer I think this is where a big part of the problem is.

Lets look at attributes to start.

When I started playing the game i split my attributes in a 2/1/1 ratio. I was "focusing" on stam so 2 attributes would go into stamina and 1 to health and 1 to mag.
This seemed about right to me.

Now skills.
I also searing strike over venomous claw, because you know, healing and damage is better than just damage right? And that's cool with engulfing flames too, i can cast those 2 from my mag pool and then i'm good for spamming wrecking blow. What's on the back bar you ask? another 2h sword! I can run rally for heals and buffs, I'm a genius. I'm certainly not feeling any pain since i have a decent amount of mag, a good amount of stam and plenty of health. I can solo a dolmen and some world bosses!

What happens when i take this build into a dungeon? I'm bad. I do terrible damage and I have no idea. I've got 34 attributes in stam, 16 health, 16 mag and i'm running 2 stat regen drink. My jewels are all robust stam regen, and my skills are a random collection of whatever.

This the problem with the current system. I'm doing what looks fun and overland isn't presenting any difficulty. I do a dungeon and i have no idea that my dps sucks since there is no addon for feedback. if the other dps is good it's an easy clear, and if they are another me it's a real struggle.

this is the core of my argument as we why the game needs to be more hybrid friendly. the game has terrible feedback systems without addons and the "correct" way to play is unintuitive. everyone who understands the game knows you want to put 64 points in a stat and only use abilities that use that stat.

For years I ran normal trials for a casual social guild and I made a point to never tell people they are "doing it wrong" unless they asked first, and I saw a shocking amount of lightning staff heavy attack builds running stamina sets and random skills. Stamplars with Puncturing Sweep because self heals.

The "floor" of this game is so low a lot of people don't understand. People struggle with overland. They will continue to make "bad" decisions but there is no reason to continue to punish them for it.

Respectfully, what you just said is your hybrid build performs well in easy mode overland but in more difficult content it doesn't.

This is the game. Hybrid or pure, a poor build isn't going to work the same across all game modes and they shouldn't dumb the game down to allow it because it will wreck the game for experienced players.

A 2 1 1 attribute ratio is just a bad decision all around for any damage set up outside of solo play, which it seems you mostly do. In a dungeon and especially a trial, even on member, you don't need to buff your health. You can also go max Stam or mag then run pots for the other bar. You're going to get buffed by the other players.

Play your own way is great until the game suffers due to being watered down. They will lose all those experienced players who pay the bills, ya know?

That's literally my point.

This terrible "build" was what felt natural. Evenly distributing stats and skills, I didn't even go into what gear I was using back then. It's bad enough that my max stat is significantly lower than it should be, but i'm using dps skills from my off stat because that looked like a good idea.
This is normal for the casual player base.

Again, respectfully, what you're saying is you should be able to throw stats or where sets on that do not transfer to doing any type of damage well but still complete harder content.

That has nothing to do with hybridization or homogenization. If there was just mag and health bars and you put half your points in health, you would suffer in dealing damage.

As you progress in the game, you have to make a decision. If you want to do harder content, you have to build to do that content. You can do this right now with hybrid attacks. All 3 of my PvE characters which run in vet trials use some level of mixed stats. How do I do it?

No health. All mag attributes. Skills that buff spell damage on stam bar. Pots that buff weapon damage. I can hit 80k on my templar. 92k on my Necro.

I have all vet trial completes except some of the hard modes.

You also have to run specific skills, mag or stam. Many skills in the toolkit will always be less useful than they should for damage. For example it'll look like a cool damage build but it just doesn't perform well.

It's all about how x skill chains into the next skill in your rotation. Again, has nothing to do with hybridization.

Medium to light armor will always have specific buffs. This goes back to Morrowind. This won't change.

And if you're not sticking light attacks between your skills your costing yourself tons of damage.

So if your comeback is your don't want to do these things to reach the next level of the game, I say you just need to reconsider my points. Each step up in difficulty requires a certain level of damage output. The only way to keep up is to hone your build, but you can do this right now with hybridization if you pick sets that give you weapon and spell buffs, and skills in a rotation that compliments both sides.

Tannus15

@TheEndBringer Sorry mate, you're completely missing the point I'm trying to make, which might be on me for not making it clear.

You seem to think I'm someone who struggles with understanding builds and I don't know what I'm doing or something. I've cleared all HM in the game except vRG. All dungeons, all trials. I parse 100k+ on my magsorc, 90k+ on half a dozen other classes.
I know how to make a proper build and do good dps.

I'm not talking about end game, or any of that at all.

What I'm talking about is how the game guides a player from level 1 to 50 and then to cp 160 and above. How it introduces concepts to them, and the choices people make at the point they might decide to try out these dungeon things, maybe do normal fungal for the first time or whatever.

Unless they do some googling they are going to have no idea what they are doing wrong because the game will punish them for not being very specific about their build but with no indication that the game is doing that.
Unless someone explains it to you it's not "normal" to put all your attributes in only one stat and only choose skills and morphs that work with that stat.
Hell, most of the stam morphs are hidden behind mag skills.
If you're not looking up a guide on how to make a stam sorc how will you know that crystal shard will have a stamina morph that you can use as a spammable? Or that you want lightning form to morph to hurricane but mages wrath is useless to you?
DW and Bow is a good plan, but DW and staff is a bad plan.
If you want to run DW/DW then make sure you have blade cloak on the back bar so it can proc backbar enchants for you while you're on your front bar and that enchants of the same type share a cooldown so don't have poison enchants on all your weapons.
Every jewellery item you get will have a terrible enchant on it you need to replace, and make sure you're running max resource and regen food that you can only get the reciepe for during a festival that is on once a year.

All this stuff we know and take for granted and it doesn't even touch on how rotations and light attack weaving works.

You need to realise how little dps people are doing. I know tanks who do random normals and are doing 50% of the group dps! The GROUP dps is 10k.

So, this is the problem that ZoS need to address, without screwing up end game AND without telling casuals what to do.

The first thing they did was make all light attacks scale off your highest resources.
Then they changed the armour passives so that all dps armour increases your damage.
Now they are changing all armour damage set bonuses to increases your damage.

None of these changes will change anything at the "top" because we aren't making these mistakes, but i bet these changes will double the dps of the bottom 25%.
If they changed it so that all skill scaled off your highest stats, none of our live builds would be negatively affected, we might choose some different morphs, but for the most part end game dps would be unchanged, but you would dramatically increase the dps of vast majority of the server population.

DrSlaughtr

Tannus15 wrote: »

@TheEndBringer Sorry mate, you're completely missing the point I'm trying to make, which might be on me for not making it clear.

You seem to think I'm someone who struggles with understanding builds and I don't know what I'm doing or something. I've cleared all HM in the game except vRG. All dungeons, all trials. I parse 100k+ on my magsorc, 90k+ on half a dozen other classes.
I know how to make a proper build and do good dps.

I'm not talking about end game, or any of that at all.

What I'm talking about is how the game guides a player from level 1 to 50 and then to cp 160 and above. How it introduces concepts to them, and the choices people make at the point they might decide to try out these dungeon things, maybe do normal fungal for the first time or whatever.

Unless they do some googling they are going to have no idea what they are doing wrong because the game will punish them for not being very specific about their build but with no indication that the game is doing that.
Unless someone explains it to you it's not "normal" to put all your attributes in only one stat and only choose skills and morphs that work with that stat.
Hell, most of the stam morphs are hidden behind mag skills.
If you're not looking up a guide on how to make a stam sorc how will you know that crystal shard will have a stamina morph that you can use as a spammable? Or that you want lightning form to morph to hurricane but mages wrath is useless to you?
DW and Bow is a good plan, but DW and staff is a bad plan.
If you want to run DW/DW then make sure you have blade cloak on the back bar so it can proc backbar enchants for you while you're on your front bar and that enchants of the same type share a cooldown so don't have poison enchants on all your weapons.
Every jewellery item you get will have a terrible enchant on it you need to replace, and make sure you're running max resource and regen food that you can only get the reciepe for during a festival that is on once a year.

All this stuff we know and take for granted and it doesn't even touch on how rotations and light attack weaving works.

You need to realise how little dps people are doing. I know tanks who do random normals and are doing 50% of the group dps! The GROUP dps is 10k.

So, this is the problem that ZoS need to address, without screwing up end game AND without telling casuals what to do.

The first thing they did was make all light attacks scale off your highest resources.
Then they changed the armour passives so that all dps armour increases your damage.
Now they are changing all armour damage set bonuses to increases your damage.

None of these changes will change anything at the "top" because we aren't making these mistakes, but i bet these changes will double the dps of the bottom 25%.
If they changed it so that all skill scaled off your highest stats, none of our live builds would be negatively affected, we might choose some different morphs, but for the most part end game dps would be unchanged, but you would dramatically increase the dps of vast majority of the server population.

Well bud, you kind of presented yourself as a casual player that's running around with 2 1 1 and wondering why you're not doing well! 😆

All MMOs require a lot of heavy lifting to learn, outside of games clearly geared toward beginners and casuals. Ultimately people have to take some responsibility to learn.

Without mentioning exact titles, there's a certain fantasy game that's been around forever that has just a much learning curve, if not more in some ways.

Then there's that game from a galaxy far, far away. It does a little better because you have to do the quests to level but even then, once you wanna raid, you need people to help you.

And let's not even forget to acknowledge the still insanely popular space simulation MMO. Hardest game to learn out there but it still gets new players to join.

ESO does finally need to add a tutorial on weaving because you have to do it and learning it at the beginning is a lot easier than after you've been playing for a year.

Having said that, encouraging players to not learn how to play by dumbing things down isn't the way to go, imo.

Tannus15

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@TheEndBringer Sorry mate, you're completely missing the point I'm trying to make, which might be on me for not making it clear.

You seem to think I'm someone who struggles with understanding builds and I don't know what I'm doing or something. I've cleared all HM in the game except vRG. All dungeons, all trials. I parse 100k+ on my magsorc, 90k+ on half a dozen other classes.
I know how to make a proper build and do good dps.

I'm not talking about end game, or any of that at all.

What I'm talking about is how the game guides a player from level 1 to 50 and then to cp 160 and above. How it introduces concepts to them, and the choices people make at the point they might decide to try out these dungeon things, maybe do normal fungal for the first time or whatever.

Unless they do some googling they are going to have no idea what they are doing wrong because the game will punish them for not being very specific about their build but with no indication that the game is doing that.
Unless someone explains it to you it's not "normal" to put all your attributes in only one stat and only choose skills and morphs that work with that stat.
Hell, most of the stam morphs are hidden behind mag skills.
If you're not looking up a guide on how to make a stam sorc how will you know that crystal shard will have a stamina morph that you can use as a spammable? Or that you want lightning form to morph to hurricane but mages wrath is useless to you?
DW and Bow is a good plan, but DW and staff is a bad plan.
If you want to run DW/DW then make sure you have blade cloak on the back bar so it can proc backbar enchants for you while you're on your front bar and that enchants of the same type share a cooldown so don't have poison enchants on all your weapons.
Every jewellery item you get will have a terrible enchant on it you need to replace, and make sure you're running max resource and regen food that you can only get the reciepe for during a festival that is on once a year.

All this stuff we know and take for granted and it doesn't even touch on how rotations and light attack weaving works.

You need to realise how little dps people are doing. I know tanks who do random normals and are doing 50% of the group dps! The GROUP dps is 10k.

So, this is the problem that ZoS need to address, without screwing up end game AND without telling casuals what to do.

The first thing they did was make all light attacks scale off your highest resources.
Then they changed the armour passives so that all dps armour increases your damage.
Now they are changing all armour damage set bonuses to increases your damage.

None of these changes will change anything at the "top" because we aren't making these mistakes, but i bet these changes will double the dps of the bottom 25%.
If they changed it so that all skill scaled off your highest stats, none of our live builds would be negatively affected, we might choose some different morphs, but for the most part end game dps would be unchanged, but you would dramatically increase the dps of vast majority of the server population.

Well bud, you kind of presented yourself as a casual player that's running around with 2 1 1 and wondering why you're not doing well! 😆

All MMOs require a lot of heavy lifting to learn, outside of games clearly geared toward beginners and casuals. Ultimately people have to take some responsibility to learn.

Without mentioning exact titles, there's a certain fantasy game that's been around forever that has just a much learning curve, if not more in some ways.

Then there's that game from a galaxy far, far away. It does a little better because you have to do the quests to level but even then, once you wanna raid, you need people to help you.

And let's not even forget to acknowledge the still insanely popular space simulation MMO. Hardest game to learn out there but it still gets new players to join.

ESO does finally need to add a tutorial on weaving because you have to do it and learning it at the beginning is a lot easier than after you've been playing for a year.

Having said that, encouraging players to not learn how to play by dumbing things down isn't the way to go, imo.

I'm not saying they should dumb down end game, when I say "dramatically increase the dps of vast majority of the server population" we're talking 4k to 15k. It's still going to be bad and insufficient for vet content.
But it won't be AS bad.
Pugging a random normal as a tank won't be rolling the dice to see if you're getting "one of those groups" and maybe people will start doing the dlc dungeons on normal.

DrSlaughtr

Tannus15 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@TheEndBringer Sorry mate, you're completely missing the point I'm trying to make, which might be on me for not making it clear.

You seem to think I'm someone who struggles with understanding builds and I don't know what I'm doing or something. I've cleared all HM in the game except vRG. All dungeons, all trials. I parse 100k+ on my magsorc, 90k+ on half a dozen other classes.
I know how to make a proper build and do good dps.

I'm not talking about end game, or any of that at all.

What I'm talking about is how the game guides a player from level 1 to 50 and then to cp 160 and above. How it introduces concepts to them, and the choices people make at the point they might decide to try out these dungeon things, maybe do normal fungal for the first time or whatever.

Unless they do some googling they are going to have no idea what they are doing wrong because the game will punish them for not being very specific about their build but with no indication that the game is doing that.
Unless someone explains it to you it's not "normal" to put all your attributes in only one stat and only choose skills and morphs that work with that stat.
Hell, most of the stam morphs are hidden behind mag skills.
If you're not looking up a guide on how to make a stam sorc how will you know that crystal shard will have a stamina morph that you can use as a spammable? Or that you want lightning form to morph to hurricane but mages wrath is useless to you?
DW and Bow is a good plan, but DW and staff is a bad plan.
If you want to run DW/DW then make sure you have blade cloak on the back bar so it can proc backbar enchants for you while you're on your front bar and that enchants of the same type share a cooldown so don't have poison enchants on all your weapons.
Every jewellery item you get will have a terrible enchant on it you need to replace, and make sure you're running max resource and regen food that you can only get the reciepe for during a festival that is on once a year.

All this stuff we know and take for granted and it doesn't even touch on how rotations and light attack weaving works.

You need to realise how little dps people are doing. I know tanks who do random normals and are doing 50% of the group dps! The GROUP dps is 10k.

So, this is the problem that ZoS need to address, without screwing up end game AND without telling casuals what to do.

The first thing they did was make all light attacks scale off your highest resources.
Then they changed the armour passives so that all dps armour increases your damage.
Now they are changing all armour damage set bonuses to increases your damage.

None of these changes will change anything at the "top" because we aren't making these mistakes, but i bet these changes will double the dps of the bottom 25%.
If they changed it so that all skill scaled off your highest stats, none of our live builds would be negatively affected, we might choose some different morphs, but for the most part end game dps would be unchanged, but you would dramatically increase the dps of vast majority of the server population.

Well bud, you kind of presented yourself as a casual player that's running around with 2 1 1 and wondering why you're not doing well! 😆

All MMOs require a lot of heavy lifting to learn, outside of games clearly geared toward beginners and casuals. Ultimately people have to take some responsibility to learn.

Without mentioning exact titles, there's a certain fantasy game that's been around forever that has just a much learning curve, if not more in some ways.

Then there's that game from a galaxy far, far away. It does a little better because you have to do the quests to level but even then, once you wanna raid, you need people to help you.

And let's not even forget to acknowledge the still insanely popular space simulation MMO. Hardest game to learn out there but it still gets new players to join.

ESO does finally need to add a tutorial on weaving because you have to do it and learning it at the beginning is a lot easier than after you've been playing for a year.

Having said that, encouraging players to not learn how to play by dumbing things down isn't the way to go, imo.

I'm not saying they should dumb down end game, when I say "dramatically increase the dps of vast majority of the server population" we're talking 4k to 15k. It's still going to be bad and insufficient for vet content.
But it won't be AS bad.
Pugging a random normal as a tank won't be rolling the dice to see if you're getting "one of those groups" and maybe people will start doing the dlc dungeons on normal.

C'mon, man. I can run most normal dungeons alone and naked. If 4 people can't complete them then that's an issue with the players, not the game. The dungeons all petty much increase with difficulty as you unlock them.

The reason people choose to eat a penalty by leaving certain dlc dungeons on a random normal is because a lot of them are poorly designed levels, often boring or tedious, and take longer than they should.

I'll leave a MHK any day of the week than trudge through that castle.

Either way this conversation has definitely moved away from hybrids!

karekiz

Hyrbids will kill the game.

Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup.
Every endgame comp will be the same.
PvP will be literally a broken mess.
Pure builds will be destroyed.

Making LA scale with highest was the WORST thing they started with.

It literally KILLED destroy staff. Nobody in their right mind would bother with them when you could deal more crit dmg with axes or stack crit with daggers. See?

In one year they will undo everything again in a 180 to course correct. Its like scalebreaker all over again.

Nagastani

rageofodin wrote: »

I could not be happier about this!

The game has struggled for years with 80-85% of their sets not being viable in end game content

This will allow for true theory crafting, and more importantly, more freedom and FUN!

So many players, especially long term players, seemed to have forgotten than this game is about having fun, and not all about them

I cant wait for Update 32!!

So you think that homogenization will allow for true theory crafting.

What the... I mean ... at this point ya'll don't want me here as a player anymore.

If your choices don't matter... you're not theory crafting. Hybrid concept is in general a terrible idea and it will ruin this game.

We need actual fixes.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Medium to light armor will always have specific buffs. This goes back to Morrowind. This won't change.

Morrowind didn't have anything like that. Moreover, light armor in TES3: Morrowind is like medium armor in ESO, while light armor of ESO is just clothes with no armor value.

Tannus15 wrote: »

You need to realise how little dps people are doing. I know tanks who do random normals and are doing 50% of the group dps! The GROUP dps is 10k.

That means they not only have bad builds, but don't click a damage skills each GCD. Otherwise it can't be this low.

IDK you need Universal Basic Damage to make those players viable. Tax the top DPS and redistribute their DPS to the poor.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

Morrowind didn't have anything like that. Moreover, light armor in TES3: Morrowind is like medium armor in ESO, while light armor of ESO is just clothes with no armor value.

Different armor skills had different attributes.

neferpitou73

I will say that when I started theorycrafting for ball group comps I used to use entirely different sets for mag and stam. With the past few patches including the current one I'm finding it more optimal to use sets that give hybrid stats (unless the build is so focused into mag or stam skills I don't care about the stats associated with the other resource). Next patch any ball group I make is likely to use the exact same sets on the damage builds mag or stam. So overall I think build diversity has gone down.

On the other hand the ability to get significant damage on your off stat has opened up entirely new playstyles which is interesting.

So I'm not quite sure whether the hybridization is a good or bad thing yet.

MECHA_STREISAND

neferpitou73 wrote: »

..I'm not quite sure whether the hybridization is a good or bad thing yet.

It's good but it needs more work IMO.. I've been testing a bunch of stuff on a Stam DK and found several combinations (light & medium) that perform more or less the same. However, the strongest is still Relequen & Berserking Warrior, and I can also swap Whip out for Silver Shards to run a pure medium armour stam build that does equal damage.

IMO hybridisation needs to be incentivised more if it's meant to be the "new way". I've said this a few times now that we need to be rewarded for our efforts so that it's worth doing. Certainly from a Stam DK perspective the meta hasn't changed at all.

Bl4ckR3alm93

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You call it play how you want, but its still homogenization and in the end if they continue to homogenize stats, passives, etc. You will end up with a game where choices don't matter and everyone will be playing hybrids, pure builds won't exist. And instead of meta magicka builds and stamina builds, you will just have one meta dps build per class.

Giving freedom of choice ≠ to choices dont matter

You can still play a pure build of whatever you want, having pure builds not have an inherent advantage over hybrid builds allows more players to play the way they want, which has been their goal from the start

I definitely agree this is just a first step in equalizing choice across the board. Stats, foods, CP will all come into line as they test and tweak

I disagree.

If hybrids put out the same dps or healing as pures, literally no one would run pures, because hybrids have access to twice as many skills. Hybrids already have an advantage in that they gain access to a much larger toolkit, pure builds have an advantage of dealing more damage or healing while being specialized. It's balanced that way. You have to give something up for building hybrid.

What they're doing with all this homogenization isn't freedom of choice by the way. When you combine things, you quite literally are removing choice.

So were going to ignore the fact that ZoS also are allowing proc sets to crit lol? I think this hybridization with proc sets being able to crit again, and proc sets now scaling with stats, is giving us waaay more choice than ever before. Now you can make so many combinations with proc sets, monster sets, and mythics. Rattlecage now gives Major Sorcery and Brutality at all times and with that you can have stronger combos. Pure builds for max damage will still outperform hybrid builds so I dont see the issue with these changes. Your current build is still going to do just fine unless you had a Max Critical Damage build but other than that, you dont have to change anything. All these changes did was open more options to the Community in general.

Abyssmol

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You call it play how you want, but its still homogenization and in the end if they continue to homogenize stats, passives, etc. You will end up with a game where choices don't matter and everyone will be playing hybrids, pure builds won't exist. And instead of meta magicka builds and stamina builds, you will just have one meta dps build per class.

Giving freedom of choice ≠ to choices dont matter

You can still play a pure build of whatever you want, having pure builds not have an inherent advantage over hybrid builds allows more players to play the way they want, which has been their goal from the start

I definitely agree this is just a first step in equalizing choice across the board. Stats, foods, CP will all come into line as they test and tweak

I disagree.

If hybrids put out the same dps or healing as pures, literally no one would run pures, because hybrids have access to twice as many skills. Hybrids already have an advantage in that they gain access to a much larger toolkit, pure builds have an advantage of dealing more damage or healing while being specialized. It's balanced that way. You have to give something up for building hybrid.

What they're doing with all this homogenization isn't freedom of choice by the way. When you combine things, you quite literally are removing choice.

Who says you have to give something up for building a hybrid? What ESO is doing is adding to those options

Where are you getting this data that no one will run pures? With hybrids I can run a full Storm MargSorc and not worry Im not putting out enough DPS for a trial or Arena

With Hybrids I can not have to worry about low level healers or dps in PUG content

With hybrids I can run a pure poison build with sets that are currently not viable for end game content

I still dont understand how you equate adding MORE options is somehow taking choice away from us

Im not trying to be contrarian, I just dont understand the logic here

I don't know what to say other than what I've already said.

1) If hybrids are competitive with pures, no one will run pures. Why would you? Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills.

2) The more you homogenize stats, the fewer choices you need to make when building a character. It's the worst thing that can happen to an RPG.

What kind of logic is that? It's the other way around, the more you homogenize stats, the more choices you have. You have more choices of sets, you have more choices of skills You said it yourself "Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills." And the same goes for sets.- twice the number of sets to choose from. Hahaha simple logic!!!

Bl4ckR3alm93

Abyssmol wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You call it play how you want, but its still homogenization and in the end if they continue to homogenize stats, passives, etc. You will end up with a game where choices don't matter and everyone will be playing hybrids, pure builds won't exist. And instead of meta magicka builds and stamina builds, you will just have one meta dps build per class.

Giving freedom of choice ≠ to choices dont matter

You can still play a pure build of whatever you want, having pure builds not have an inherent advantage over hybrid builds allows more players to play the way they want, which has been their goal from the start

I definitely agree this is just a first step in equalizing choice across the board. Stats, foods, CP will all come into line as they test and tweak

I disagree.

If hybrids put out the same dps or healing as pures, literally no one would run pures, because hybrids have access to twice as many skills. Hybrids already have an advantage in that they gain access to a much larger toolkit, pure builds have an advantage of dealing more damage or healing while being specialized. It's balanced that way. You have to give something up for building hybrid.

What they're doing with all this homogenization isn't freedom of choice by the way. When you combine things, you quite literally are removing choice.

Who says you have to give something up for building a hybrid? What ESO is doing is adding to those options

Where are you getting this data that no one will run pures? With hybrids I can run a full Storm MargSorc and not worry Im not putting out enough DPS for a trial or Arena

With Hybrids I can not have to worry about low level healers or dps in PUG content

With hybrids I can run a pure poison build with sets that are currently not viable for end game content

I still dont understand how you equate adding MORE options is somehow taking choice away from us

Im not trying to be contrarian, I just dont understand the logic here

I don't know what to say other than what I've already said.

1) If hybrids are competitive with pures, no one will run pures. Why would you? Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills.

2) The more you homogenize stats, the fewer choices you need to make when building a character. It's the worst thing that can happen to an RPG.

What kind of logic is that? It's the other way around, the more you homogenize stats, the more choices you have. You have more choices of sets, you have more choices of skills You said it yourself "Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills." And the same goes for sets.- twice the number of sets to choose from. Hahaha simple logic!!!

I laughed too at his responses 😂. Literally the only builds that are taking a negative effect from this patch are pure Max Critical Damage builds, thats it lol. If this patch was just Hybrid changes, then I would say this patch is mediocre but not bad, but thats not the case since proc sets are scaling and able to critically strike is what adds flavor to this patch.

DepressiveCrab

Guys, who posted the messages above. Did you play the game?
The best sets are stam. And => mana have to use stam sets for top dps. So, we're coming to meta, where ALL DD classes should to wear AY& Kinras(oki, stamina maybe have some proc sets).
I hate stamina, I want to play mana with mana sets, not ugly freaking Kinras. But I CANT, if I want to do last content, cause I need all my dps.
If you cant see that problem- you are blind or play only dungeons/pvp.

karekiz

DepressiveCrab wrote: »

Guys, who posted the messages above. Did you play the game?
The best sets are stam. And => mana have to use stam sets for top dps. So, we're coming to meta, where ALL DD classes should to wear AY& Kinras(oki, stamina maybe have some proc sets).
I hate stamina, I want to play mana with mana sets, not ugly freaking Kinras. But I CANT, if I want to do last content, cause I need all my dps.
If you cant see that problem- you are blind or play only dungeons/pvp.

Whats the difference between wearing sets? Or having the forums littered with back in the day "We want magic Lok!". Who cares what the set is. It doesn't make a difference. A stat is a stat.

As far as people will run the same thing. People already do. The idea that there is this magic choice is laughable.

Hey guys! We had choice! You could pick 2 sets from stam or potentially three from mag!

Want to know the REAL lowering of choice? The crit cap making something like EC less desirable for some comps. Support has basically always been the only real breaker. If support didn't exist then literally all DPS would just wear the exact same two setups - Mania/Siroria for example.

Chilly-McFreeze

Stx wrote: »

I don't know what to say other than what I've already said.

1) If hybrids are competitive with pures, no one will run pures. Why would you? Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills.

Just to jump in here:

Hybrids aren't currently equal to pure builds. There are far too much stats that aren't fused (enchants etc).

Even if they would be as viable/ competitive etc as pure builds, two things would happen:

1) It's still a matter of taste to go magickal, martial or both - if you're a "casual". If I don't want to be a spellslinger, I don't have to be. Not now, not then. But if I want to be a spellblade, I don't fall off too far from pure builds.

2) If there even is a tiny difference in power - the meta and endgame crowd would jump on it. Only difference is that the endgame meta could rotate between 3 set ups instead of 2. From a PvE pov.

For PvP, yes, it could (!) open up some interesting combos or even some cheese. But wasn't cheese always present there?

DrSlaughtr

Abyssmol wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You call it play how you want, but its still homogenization and in the end if they continue to homogenize stats, passives, etc. You will end up with a game where choices don't matter and everyone will be playing hybrids, pure builds won't exist. And instead of meta magicka builds and stamina builds, you will just have one meta dps build per class.

Giving freedom of choice ≠ to choices dont matter

You can still play a pure build of whatever you want, having pure builds not have an inherent advantage over hybrid builds allows more players to play the way they want, which has been their goal from the start

I definitely agree this is just a first step in equalizing choice across the board. Stats, foods, CP will all come into line as they test and tweak

I disagree.

If hybrids put out the same dps or healing as pures, literally no one would run pures, because hybrids have access to twice as many skills. Hybrids already have an advantage in that they gain access to a much larger toolkit, pure builds have an advantage of dealing more damage or healing while being specialized. It's balanced that way. You have to give something up for building hybrid.

What they're doing with all this homogenization isn't freedom of choice by the way. When you combine things, you quite literally are removing choice.

Who says you have to give something up for building a hybrid? What ESO is doing is adding to those options

Where are you getting this data that no one will run pures? With hybrids I can run a full Storm MargSorc and not worry Im not putting out enough DPS for a trial or Arena

With Hybrids I can not have to worry about low level healers or dps in PUG content

With hybrids I can run a pure poison build with sets that are currently not viable for end game content

I still dont understand how you equate adding MORE options is somehow taking choice away from us

Im not trying to be contrarian, I just dont understand the logic here

I don't know what to say other than what I've already said.

1) If hybrids are competitive with pures, no one will run pures. Why would you? Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills.

2) The more you homogenize stats, the fewer choices you need to make when building a character. It's the worst thing that can happen to an RPG.

What kind of logic is that? It's the other way around, the more you homogenize stats, the more choices you have. You have more choices of sets, you have more choices of skills You said it yourself "Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills." And the same goes for sets.- twice the number of sets to choose from. Hahaha simple logic!!!

They are probably talking about power creep.

For years, you've had to make concessions to in one area to excel in others. This forces players to consider what they actually want to accomplish and how to get there via sets and skills.

For example, so I have a full crit build that can be melted in two seconds? Do I want to sacrifice damage for a defensive set?

Choosing your primary offensive stat is part of that. If I want to run a spell sword, I'm going to do slightly less damage while gaining the ability to fight in close quarters and use melee skills in conjunction with mag skills that often have big benefits, such an being undodgeable.

But rightfully so, your mag skills will do slightly less damage without a staff.

So what does this have to do with homogenization?

Players are already on here making the case to merge mag and stam pools. The more in this direction we go, the less variety there will be. The streamers with figure out the most optimized single build for every class with the only distinction being PvE or pvp. Because players always want to perform better, most will gravitate to these builds.

We already see this in end game trials but that's because those groups are pushing score or just want the least trouble clearing content. But outside of that you still have build diversity.

If it run in a pvp group of nightblades, no one is running the exact same build but we're all performing equally.

But if we just had one stat pool OR if, let's say, there is only a similar damage pool, it would actually make it less of a choice to run x skill over y skill. Everyone would just run the skill that gives the most without sacrificing anything.

People like me are hoping we don't go that far down the rabbit hole because we can see the unintended consequences. Most players don't.

Hence dark convergence. Players begged and begged for a set to combat ball groups. Now we're dealing with that fallout. And despite a large number of complaints, the set will still come out of pts too strong.

Nagastani

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

rageofodin wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

You call it play how you want, but its still homogenization and in the end if they continue to homogenize stats, passives, etc. You will end up with a game where choices don't matter and everyone will be playing hybrids, pure builds won't exist. And instead of meta magicka builds and stamina builds, you will just have one meta dps build per class.

Giving freedom of choice ≠ to choices dont matter

You can still play a pure build of whatever you want, having pure builds not have an inherent advantage over hybrid builds allows more players to play the way they want, which has been their goal from the start

I definitely agree this is just a first step in equalizing choice across the board. Stats, foods, CP will all come into line as they test and tweak

I disagree.

If hybrids put out the same dps or healing as pures, literally no one would run pures, because hybrids have access to twice as many skills. Hybrids already have an advantage in that they gain access to a much larger toolkit, pure builds have an advantage of dealing more damage or healing while being specialized. It's balanced that way. You have to give something up for building hybrid.

What they're doing with all this homogenization isn't freedom of choice by the way. When you combine things, you quite literally are removing choice.

Who says you have to give something up for building a hybrid? What ESO is doing is adding to those options

Where are you getting this data that no one will run pures? With hybrids I can run a full Storm MargSorc and not worry Im not putting out enough DPS for a trial or Arena

With Hybrids I can not have to worry about low level healers or dps in PUG content

With hybrids I can run a pure poison build with sets that are currently not viable for end game content

I still dont understand how you equate adding MORE options is somehow taking choice away from us

Im not trying to be contrarian, I just dont understand the logic here

I don't know what to say other than what I've already said.

1) If hybrids are competitive with pures, no one will run pures. Why would you? Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills.

2) The more you homogenize stats, the fewer choices you need to make when building a character. It's the worst thing that can happen to an RPG.

What kind of logic is that? It's the other way around, the more you homogenize stats, the more choices you have. You have more choices of sets, you have more choices of skills You said it yourself "Hybrids have access to twice the number of skills." And the same goes for sets.- twice the number of sets to choose from. Hahaha simple logic!!!

They are probably talking about power creep.

For years, you've had to make concessions to in one area to excel in others. This forces players to consider what they actually want to accomplish and how to get there via sets and skills.

For example, so I have a full crit build that can be melted in two seconds? Do I want to sacrifice damage for a defensive set?

Choosing your primary offensive stat is part of that. If I want to run a spell sword, I'm going to do slightly less damage while gaining the ability to fight in close quarters and use melee skills in conjunction with mag skills that often have big benefits, such an being undodgeable.

But rightfully so, your mag skills will do slightly less damage without a staff.

So what does this have to do with homogenization?

Players are already on here making the case to merge mag and stam pools. The more in this direction we go, the less variety there will be. The streamers with figure out the most optimized single build for every class with the only distinction being PvE or pvp. Because players always want to perform better, most will gravitate to these builds.

We already see this in end game trials but that's because those groups are pushing score or just want the least trouble clearing content. But outside of that you still have build diversity.

If it run in a pvp group of nightblades, no one is running the exact same build but we're all performing equally.

But if we just had one stat pool OR if, let's say, there is only a similar damage pool, it would actually make it less of a choice to run x skill over y skill. Everyone would just run the skill that gives the most without sacrificing anything.

People like me are hoping we don't go that far down the rabbit hole because we can see the unintended consequences. Most players don't.

Hence dark convergence. Players begged and begged for a set to combat ball groups. Now we're dealing with that fallout. And despite a large number of complaints, the set will still come out of pts too strong.

Fair points. How far will they go... well you already know that answer hah.

So I thought about this some more and I can understand now why ZOS is doing this.

Its because like every set, no matter what it does the set has Mag and Stam weapons. It makes sense they would go this route.

However. The reason I am -not- for this is we don't need it. Something else we don't need. Geez its almost as if they are running out of ideas over there. For example. The Sword buffs any kind of dmg, spell or weapon dmg, it doesn't care. But here is where we run into trouble. What if I want a little more variety and specialization, so I choose a BAxe or a Hammer. The way it appears now, these traditional stam weps will draw dmg from spell dmg. If this is true, then something is grossly unsat with this picture because if I decide that I care about dmg alone, I will choose a sword. If not I will go with something less generalized for the intended task. Which makes me wonder why even have separate weapons? That's the problem with changes like these they tend to snowball into left field and open the door to 'unintended consequences'. Its like everyone is not onboard with what the foundation of the game's combat system is all about. One side of the Team gets it, the other is out in left field going experimental.

And that's all I really need to say for now. I understand where this change is coming from however I think its not going to solve the problem like they want it to. It seems like whomever is over these recent changes doesn't understand how to solve problems in ESO without fundamentally changing the game in the process. Kind of like saying sometimes the cure is worse than the ailment. Stuff like this is frustrating to me because all alot of us asked for was more dynamic and engaging difficulty for PvE, everyone blew up over that but then the Devs go around and do something like this. It just re-enforces our point that they can do whatever they feel needs to be done. But still frustrating to know they place more of a priority, by far, about going experimental (in more ways than one or two) than actually fixing long existing problems with the game itself or working to fulfill request for changes the community actually would like to see, in a fair and balanced way for everyone.

DrSlaughtr

It's a massive game and every decision is plotted out months to even years ahead of time. The changes in the next update were set in stone long before they talked about them. These changes will go forward to one degree or another.

Going back and making all sets work both ways seems silly to me, especially when there are usually matching sets, like with Mother's Sorrow and Leviathan. I do think it was smart to make all new sets work for mag and stam, going back to New Moon Acolyte.

Where I get worried is that this isn't good enough for some players. That want a single damage stat, single pen, and even a single resource pool.

I don't know if that's the plan but if enough people start calling for something without considering the drawbacks, ZOS has shown that they'll throw themselves down those stairs and then spend a year trying to repair the damage.

So you wanna make all sets hybrid? Let's go. If you want to homogenize damage completely? No way.

Nagastani

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a massive game and every decision is plotted out months to even years ahead of time. The changes in the next update were set in stone long before they talked about them. These changes will go forward to one degree or another.

Going back and making all sets work both ways seems silly to me, especially when there are usually matching sets, like with Mother's Sorrow and Leviathan. I do think it was smart to make all new sets work for mag and stam, going back to New Moon Acolyte.

Where I get worried is that this isn't good enough for some players. That want a single damage stat, single pen, and even a single resource pool.

I don't know if that's the plan but if enough people start calling for something without considering the drawbacks, ZOS has shown that they'll throw themselves down those stairs and then spend a year trying to repair the damage.

So you wanna make all sets hybrid? Let's go. If you want to homogenize damage completely? No way.

I just think at this point they're just going to do whatever they want regardless.

It's kind of frustrating again, because they want us to support the game but more and more it seems the changes they're making as well as... the things players ask for... which is strange to me... is just not really the same game anymore. It has Elder Scrolls on the cover but the game itself doesn't feel like Elder Scrolls.

These days its become very experimental. Its like they're pushing the limits to just how much crap people will take off their changes.

Tannus15

karekiz wrote: »

Hyrbids will kill the game.

Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup.
Every endgame comp will be the same.
PvP will be literally a broken mess.
Pure builds will be destroyed.

Making LA scale with highest was the WORST thing they started with.

It literally KILLED destroy staff. Nobody in their right mind would bother with them when you could deal more crit dmg with axes or stack crit with daggers. See?

In one year they will undo everything again in a 180 to course correct. Its like scalebreaker all over again.

axes are now dead with the crit damage cap, daggers are great, but inferno has 10% single target damage and range. lots of people are still running staff over daggers. don't confuse dummy meta with what people actually use, just go look at esologs.com and you'll find even the top groups have people running destro staff.

i don't understand this "Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup."
firstly right now endgame is only mag builds so every endgame build IS only one setup. How can you make this claim as if it's not the current state of play?
even if all skills were scaled to use max resource just look at the issues with managing sustain with stamdk and flamelash.
pure builds is still easier to manage because you still want to max 1 resource and can only regen on stat well.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a massive game and every decision is plotted out months to even years ahead of time. The changes in the next update were set in stone long before they talked about them. These changes will go forward to one degree or another.

Going back and making all sets work both ways seems silly to me, especially when there are usually matching sets, like with Mother's Sorrow and Leviathan. I do think it was smart to make all new sets work for mag and stam, going back to New Moon Acolyte.

Where I get worried is that this isn't good enough for some players. That want a single damage stat, single pen, and even a single resource pool.

I don't know if that's the plan but if enough people start calling for something without considering the drawbacks, ZOS has shown that they'll throw themselves down those stairs and then spend a year trying to repair the damage.

So you wanna make all sets hybrid? Let's go. If you want to homogenize damage completely? No way.

I would absolutely de couple max resource and damage if i could. I like the idea of total max resource so you can't just throw a bunch of attributes into health. the way drinks/food interacts with max resource and regen would still apply, and you can't have both so you'll still probably want 1 primary resource and one secondary resource just from a sustain perspective.

But I feel the way skills are restricted based on their resource type is really bad. I think there are a heap of wasted "morphs" as they attempted to adapt the game to the stamina / magicka split. You can tell it wasn't the intent or design of the classes by the complete lack of stam morphs for the 4 base game classes and it was something they have been trying to address without completely rebuilding classes from the ground up for years now.

Nagastani

Tannus15 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Hyrbids will kill the game.

Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup.
Every endgame comp will be the same.
PvP will be literally a broken mess.
Pure builds will be destroyed.

Making LA scale with highest was the WORST thing they started with.

It literally KILLED destroy staff. Nobody in their right mind would bother with them when you could deal more crit dmg with axes or stack crit with daggers. See?

In one year they will undo everything again in a 180 to course correct. Its like scalebreaker all over again.

axes are now dead with the crit damage cap, daggers are great, but inferno has 10% single target damage and range. lots of people are still running staff over daggers. don't confuse dummy meta with what people actually use, just go look at esologs.com and you'll find even the top groups have people running destro staff.

i don't understand this "Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup."
firstly right now endgame is only mag builds so every endgame build IS only one setup. How can you make this claim as if it's not the current state of play?
even if all skills were scaled to use max resource just look at the issues with managing sustain with stamdk and flamelash.
pure builds is still easier to manage because you still want to max 1 resource and can only regen on stat well.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a massive game and every decision is plotted out months to even years ahead of time. The changes in the next update were set in stone long before they talked about them. These changes will go forward to one degree or another.

Going back and making all sets work both ways seems silly to me, especially when there are usually matching sets, like with Mother's Sorrow and Leviathan. I do think it was smart to make all new sets work for mag and stam, going back to New Moon Acolyte.

Where I get worried is that this isn't good enough for some players. That want a single damage stat, single pen, and even a single resource pool.

I don't know if that's the plan but if enough people start calling for something without considering the drawbacks, ZOS has shown that they'll throw themselves down those stairs and then spend a year trying to repair the damage.

So you wanna make all sets hybrid? Let's go. If you want to homogenize damage completely? No way.

I would absolutely de couple max resource and damage if i could. I like the idea of total max resource so you can't just throw a bunch of attributes into health. the way drinks/food interacts with max resource and regen would still apply, and you can't have both so you'll still probably want 1 primary resource and one secondary resource just from a sustain perspective.

But I feel the way skills are restricted based on their resource type is really bad. I think there are a heap of wasted "morphs" as they attempted to adapt the game to the stamina / magicka split. You can tell it wasn't the intent or design of the classes by the complete lack of stam morphs for the 4 base game classes and it was something they have been trying to address without completely rebuilding classes from the ground up for years now.

If I was given the choice between them rebuilding classes 'from the ground up', or experimenting with different things I would rather have the rebuild.

That's actually not a bad idea really. Rebuild the classes and bring them up to today's standard. This would include stam/mag abilities where they should be.

Although it might take a little time I think it would be worth it as opposed to breaking balance in the game. The game gets broken either way, the difference is this way it won't stay broken.

ealdwin

Tannus15 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Hyrbids will kill the game.

Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup.
Every endgame comp will be the same.
PvP will be literally a broken mess.
Pure builds will be destroyed.

Making LA scale with highest was the WORST thing they started with.

It literally KILLED destroy staff. Nobody in their right mind would bother with them when you could deal more crit dmg with axes or stack crit with daggers. See?

In one year they will undo everything again in a 180 to course correct. Its like scalebreaker all over again.

axes are now dead with the crit damage cap, daggers are great, but inferno has 10% single target damage and range. lots of people are still running staff over daggers. don't confuse dummy meta with what people actually use, just go look at esologs.com and you'll find even the top groups have people running destro staff.

i don't understand this "Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup."
firstly right now endgame is only mag builds so every endgame build IS only one setup. How can you make this claim as if it's not the current state of play?
even if all skills were scaled to use max resource just look at the issues with managing sustain with stamdk and flamelash.
pure builds is still easier to manage because you still want to max 1 resource and can only regen on stat well.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a massive game and every decision is plotted out months to even years ahead of time. The changes in the next update were set in stone long before they talked about them. These changes will go forward to one degree or another.

Going back and making all sets work both ways seems silly to me, especially when there are usually matching sets, like with Mother's Sorrow and Leviathan. I do think it was smart to make all new sets work for mag and stam, going back to New Moon Acolyte.

Where I get worried is that this isn't good enough for some players. That want a single damage stat, single pen, and even a single resource pool.

I don't know if that's the plan but if enough people start calling for something without considering the drawbacks, ZOS has shown that they'll throw themselves down those stairs and then spend a year trying to repair the damage.

So you wanna make all sets hybrid? Let's go. If you want to homogenize damage completely? No way.

I would absolutely de couple max resource and damage if i could. I like the idea of total max resource so you can't just throw a bunch of attributes into health. the way drinks/food interacts with max resource and regen would still apply, and you can't have both so you'll still probably want 1 primary resource and one secondary resource just from a sustain perspective.

But I feel the way skills are restricted based on their resource type is really bad. I think there are a heap of wasted "morphs" as they attempted to adapt the game to the stamina / magicka split. You can tell it wasn't the intent or design of the classes by the complete lack of stam morphs for the 4 base game classes and it was something they have been trying to address without completely rebuilding classes from the ground up for years now.

It wasn't the intent or design. They took the building blocks of the Warrior archetype, ie. weapons, and made them freely available to everyone. Then they took the building blocks of the Mage archetype, ie. schools of magic, chopped them up, divided them out and mixed them with other bits of other rpgs and mmo archetypes based on a theme. And then when players wanted to be able to build "pure" stamina builds (ie. min-maxing along only Stamina lines), they just slapped stamina costs onto several of the skills and called it a day. It would be like making a fireball spell in Skyrim that cost Stamina and had it's damage increase with each Fortify One-Handed enchant. It doesn't feel like a warrior because it wasn't intended to be a warrior, and when it was changed to be one, it wasn't done well.

I'm not saying that the original design was great or perfect. (The scrapped beta design of classes being comps of traditional skills (ie. Battlemage = Alteration, Destruction, Mysticism, Two-Handed), may have worked out better, but who knows). But in their attempt to create more along the Magicka/Stamina dichotomy they ended up creating scenarios where you essentially picked armor-weapon-morphs based on which attribute you chose. This dichotomy ends up being antithetical to what people expect from an "Elder Scrolls" title.

I'm not saying the new solution is perfect either, just saying that the old state wasn't better. The reality is that the combat system is a mess of different philosophies being built out of old ones. It's a mess with no perfect solution, except perhaps burning it all down and rebuilding from scratch. (Joking, of course).

DrSlaughtr

Tannus15 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Hyrbids will kill the game.

Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup.
Every endgame comp will be the same.
PvP will be literally a broken mess.
Pure builds will be destroyed.

Making LA scale with highest was the WORST thing they started with.

It literally KILLED destroy staff. Nobody in their right mind would bother with them when you could deal more crit dmg with axes or stack crit with daggers. See?

In one year they will undo everything again in a 180 to course correct. Its like scalebreaker all over again.

axes are now dead with the crit damage cap, daggers are great, but inferno has 10% single target damage and range. lots of people are still running staff over daggers. don't confuse dummy meta with what people actually use, just go look at esologs.com and you'll find even the top groups have people running destro staff.

i don't understand this "Every endgame build will choose only ONE setup."
firstly right now endgame is only mag builds so every endgame build IS only one setup. How can you make this claim as if it's not the current state of play?
even if all skills were scaled to use max resource just look at the issues with managing sustain with stamdk and flamelash.
pure builds is still easier to manage because you still want to max 1 resource and can only regen on stat well.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

It's a massive game and every decision is plotted out months to even years ahead of time. The changes in the next update were set in stone long before they talked about them. These changes will go forward to one degree or another.

Going back and making all sets work both ways seems silly to me, especially when there are usually matching sets, like with Mother's Sorrow and Leviathan. I do think it was smart to make all new sets work for mag and stam, going back to New Moon Acolyte.

Where I get worried is that this isn't good enough for some players. That want a single damage stat, single pen, and even a single resource pool.

I don't know if that's the plan but if enough people start calling for something without considering the drawbacks, ZOS has shown that they'll throw themselves down those stairs and then spend a year trying to repair the damage.

So you wanna make all sets hybrid? Let's go. If you want to homogenize damage completely? No way.

I would absolutely de couple max resource and damage if i could. I like the idea of total max resource so you can't just throw a bunch of attributes into health. the way drinks/food interacts with max resource and regen would still apply, and you can't have both so you'll still probably want 1 primary resource and one secondary resource just from a sustain perspective.

But I feel the way skills are restricted based on their resource type is really bad. I think there are a heap of wasted "morphs" as they attempted to adapt the game to the stamina / magicka split. You can tell it wasn't the intent or design of the classes by the complete lack of stam morphs for the 4 base game classes and it was something they have been trying to address without completely rebuilding classes from the ground up for years now.

The mag/stam set up was done on purpose. But all these years post launch those reasons get forgotten. You literally have a post on another board asking to roll back zone changes pre Tamrial. Unknowingly, of course, because they weren't around then.

There are plenty issues with the game that could take attention. Blowing up combat balance is making a problem.

Tannus15

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The mag/stam set up was done on purpose. But all these years post launch those reasons get forgotten. You literally have a post on another board asking to roll back zone changes pre Tamrial. Unknowingly, of course, because they weren't around then.

I do? where? I love the one tam changes. Best thing the game ever did. Overland is too easy now, and I think some of these changes are paving the way for rebalancing that, but we'll see.

I wasn't really paying attention back before 1T, just rolling solo so I have no idea about any of the reasons for any of the changes.

DrSlaughtr

Tannus15 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The mag/stam set up was done on purpose. But all these years post launch those reasons get forgotten. You literally have a post on another board asking to roll back zone changes pre Tamrial. Unknowingly, of course, because they weren't around then.

I do? where? I love the one tam changes. Best thing the game ever did. Overland is too easy now, and I think some of these changes are paving the way for rebalancing that, but we'll see.

I wasn't really paying attention back before 1T, just rolling solo so I have no idea about any of the reasons for any of the changes.

Not literally you. I probably should have phrased that differently. I just meant there is a topic about that.