Make ESO PVP Fun Again! ESO Pre-IC PVP Skills/Class Design Based Campaign Option for Cyrodil/BG

iPeriphery

PVP wise, this game is a pathetic empty shell of it's former self. The PVP should be based on skill, not how many proc sets you have to brainlessly throw at your opponent. I remember back to a time when this game was worth spending money on, when I would have gladly dropped tons of $ on Mount upgrades and cosmetics for all my PVP alts. Sadly this is no longer the case. I've been playing this game since beta and each year it just gets worse and worse with no hope in sight. It is truly depressing seeing how great the game's PVP used to be compared to the sad state it is in now. It doesn't matter how much content or QoL Changes have happened over the years, PVP wise the game is simply inferior in almost every single way compared to Pre-IC and heck honestly even Pre-Morrowind.

The Homogenization and gutting of classes has created a bland uninspiring mess. It is honestly a shame to see such wasted potential. ESO used to be the most fun PVP game to play with friends, just roaming around in Cyrodill and capping fools. Between the lag and the straight up gutting of fun mechanics in addition to having proc sets added and nerfs to pvp skill over time via changes like cast time on Ults to name one, this game can't even hold a candle to it's former glory. (Note that I'm not saying we should go back to this) Heck, to further emphasize a point; I'd rather go back to playing against DK Vampire Bat Swarm Infinite Ultimate Spam than play the game in the current state; At least back then the game felt unique and still gave a sense of wonder and awe just thinking about the amount of theory crafting and build diversity. It's like the game has lost all of it's soul, all of what made it feel unique and the fun sense of charm that it used to have. [snip]

Runescape, and WoW have pulled off classic servers successfully. While this would be different than a straight up classic version of the game; I think that an ESO Classic style PVP Realm on the current game's patch Cyrodil Campaign/Battleground selection with NO PROC SETS , and the skills/class design based on the patch right before IC, with all the current QoL Improvements and Content/Battlegrounds that are in the game now, would bring a HUGE revival to the PVP scene.

Playing Cyrodil back before the lighting patch f'ed everything was such an amazing experience, and honestly ESO before it was gutted and homogenized into this Proc set Frankenstein of a Monster that it became, was hands down one of the best PVP games ever created. It's so sad and depressing to see what had such huge potential, wasted and basically thrown into the ground and defecated upon. ZOS Please for the love of Christ, create a Cyrodil/BG Realm Campaign similiar to choosing between CP/NoCP available to play on with the old actually good playstyle. What in the Molag Bal were you thinking by adding a cast time to ults and removing skill from PVP? This Proc set pvp clownfest that is currently going on, isn't the way the game should have turned out.

[edited for bashing]

ZOS_GregoryV

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kieso

No.

iPeriphery

kieso wrote: »

No.

Yes.
PVE isn't all there is to an MMO, thank you. The PVP Community needs some much deserved love.

Aznarb

iPeriphery wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

No.

Yes.
PVE isn't all there is to an MMO, thank you. The PVP Community needs some much deserved love.

I do both and that still a no. It was not better at all.

iPeriphery

Aznarb wrote: »

iPeriphery wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

No.

Yes.
PVE isn't all there is to an MMO, thank you. The PVP Community needs some much deserved love.

I do both and that still a no. It was not better at all.

[snip] you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now. If you prefer the current version, fine. But it is clearly inferior, and the PVP population decline clearly indicates that. Every class has lost it's identity, and so many of the mechanics that made classes unique were stripped away. Idk how anyone could enjoy dumbed down skill-less PVP content. It's not even satisfying killing someone anymore, all the good hardcore pvpers have already long quit, nobody knows [snip] they are doing anymore so fights feel like meaningless beating of a dog that can't defend themselves. Even on the off chance they did know how to fight semi-properly, the combat just doesn't even feel the same, it's so stiff and slow. [snip]

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

Aznarb

you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now

This simple sentence show that you've no clue how to balance PvP in a game.
If you can cancel anime a skill, then the opponent have no way to counter play since he don't see the animation.

Hence why it was play gank or play tank and nothing else.

kargen27

ESO classic players could fly around casting endless ultimates on the plebes below. We don't need to go back to that.

Right now our choices are lag or roll back to cheat engine. I prefer lag. I am optimistic eventually they will smooth things out. Some nights aren't that bad now. Last night as far as performance went other than a couple of times when I died to a series of bow attacks before I was aware any of them went off it was pretty good. The dark convergence threw a wrench in things but that isn't really a performance issue.

VaranisArano

Right.

I'll take a "DK Vampire Bat Swarm Infinite Ultimate Spam" and a "Pre-Morrowind Blazeplar 1vX God" to go with my "Cheat Engine Flying Meteor Spammer," please?

I mean, I main a MagDK, so you'd think I'd be leaping (pun intended) at the chance to get my old reflecting Wings back or regain the ability to chain myself up on keep walls...

Thing is, what nobody discusses is exactly which update we'd be going back to, or how we'd address the imbalances that have been present in pretty much every update.

And everyone ignores that "Classic" means doing without basic gameplay that we've had for years. Pre-Imperial City? We still had Vet Ranks back then! Wanna go back to the soft caps build design too?

"Classic" means a lot of things to many people, and some of those things were downright unbalanced and overpowered. At this point, it's probably impractical anyways.

But let's be honest. ZOS could give us "Classic" PVP and we PVPers would still complain...probably the same complaints as the first time.

Pepegrillos

Someone asked Rich Lambert on his stream whether they had considered adding classic ESO servers. I don't remember exactly (literal) what he answered. But he mentioned that the numbers were not good back then, and that the game has improved significantly.

iPeriphery

kargen27 wrote: »

ESO classic players could fly around casting endless ultimates on the plebes below. We don't need to go back to that.

Right now our choices are lag or roll back to cheat engine. I prefer lag. I am optimistic eventually they will smooth things out. Some nights aren't that bad now. Last night as far as performance went other than a couple of times when I died to a series of bow attacks before I was aware any of them went off it was pretty good. The dark convergence threw a wrench in things but that isn't really a performance issue.

That isn't what I meant, it would built on the current version of the game but would be an option to select in the same way there is CP and No-CP as a campaign. Also you're over exaggerating, the Cheat Engine nonsense happened for maybe like a week or two and wasn't very common.

Aznarb wrote: »

you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now

This simple sentence show that you've no clue how to balance PvP in a game.
If you can cancel anime a skill, then the opponent have no way to counter play since he don't see the animation.

Hence why it was play gank or play tank and nothing else.

[snip] Animation canceling ults wasn't unbalanced with no counter play. Ganking no matter what will catch you off guard, and when it was a normal fight your enemy often telegraphs when they are about to burst so you knew when the ult is coming, on top of being able to hear the sound for it. Don't lie to yourself, It was way more skillful then the current brain dead PVP that is based on Gear > Skill.

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Someone asked Rich Lambert on his stream whether they had considered adding classic ESO servers. I don't remember exactly (literal) what he answered. But he mentioned that the numbers were not good back then, and that the game has improved significantly.

If by the game improving significantly you mean game balance, lag, and bugs getting worse and worse every year; than you would be correct. The game also was way buggier as well as newer and didn't have the amount of time to grow the player base that it has had now. PVP was straight out better in every single way back then without question. That is the key difference.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Right.

I'll take a "DK Vampire Bat Swarm Infinite Ultimate Spam" and a "Pre-Morrowind Blazeplar 1vX God" to go with my "Cheat Engine Flying Meteor Spammer," please?

I mean, I main a MagDK, so you'd think I'd be leaping (pun intended) at the chance to get my old reflecting Wings back or regain the ability to chain myself up on keep walls...

Thing is, what nobody discusses is exactly which update we'd be going back to, or how we'd address the imbalances that have been present in pretty much every update.

And everyone ignores that "Classic" means doing without basic gameplay that we've had for years. Pre-Imperial City? We still had Vet Ranks back then! Wanna go back to the soft caps build design too?

"Classic" means a lot of things to many people, and some of those things were downright unbalanced and overpowered. At this point, it's probably impractical anyways.

But let's be honest. ZOS could give us "Classic" PVP and we PVPers would still complain...probably the same complaints as the first time.

Although I wasn't talking about going quite thaaat far back combat wise and was just saying it to emphasize a point, I'd much rather have the DK and Blazeplar non-sense any day over the current Hrothgar/DC Proc set BS. It wasn't perfect back then by any means, but it was a hell of a lot more fun than current gameplay. Obviously I'm not saying completely make a separate Classic game, but rather a selection for a Classic Mode style combat on the Battlegrounds/Cyrodil campaign/game mode selection screen based off of the Skills/Class balance back then with slight tweaks for stamina morphs that weren't available for some classes that desperately needed them like Sorc/Stamplar/StamDK, but without all the homogenization that ruined class design. Not an easy task but surely a worthy endeavor, because they obviously aren't going the right direction as things stand now.

The point is, whatever has been done in the past few years clearly isn't working and is only making the game worse. Heck, when is the last time you saw something like a Magblade actually viable outside ganking/bombing with proc sets? There are plenty of other examples like this.

[snip]

[Edited for Bashing & Baiting]

VaranisArano

iPeriphery wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ESO classic players could fly around casting endless ultimates on the plebes below. We don't need to go back to that.

Right now our choices are lag or roll back to cheat engine. I prefer lag. I am optimistic eventually they will smooth things out. Some nights aren't that bad now. Last night as far as performance went other than a couple of times when I died to a series of bow attacks before I was aware any of them went off it was pretty good. The dark convergence threw a wrench in things but that isn't really a performance issue.

That isn't what I meant, it would built on the current version of the game but would be an option to select in the same way there is CP and No-CP as a campaign. Also you're over exaggerating, the Cheat Engine nonsense happened for maybe like a week or two and wasn't very common.

Aznarb wrote: »

you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now

This simple sentence show that you've no clue how to balance PvP in a game.
If you can cancel anime a skill, then the opponent have no way to counter play since he don't see the animation.

Hence why it was play gank or play tank and nothing else.

[snip] Animation canceling ults wasn't unbalanced with no counter play. Ganking no matter what will catch you off guard, and when it was a normal fight your enemy often telegraphs when they are about to burst so you knew when the ult is coming, on top of being able to hear the sound for it. [snip] It was way more skillful then the current brain dead PVP that is based on Gear > Skill.

Pepegrillos wrote: »

Someone asked Rich Lambert on his stream whether they had considered adding classic ESO servers. I don't remember exactly (literal) what he answered. But he mentioned that the numbers were not good back then, and that the game has improved significantly.

If by the game improving significantly you mean game balance, lag, and bugs getting worse and worse every year; than you would be correct. The game also was way newer and didn't have the amount of time to grow that it has had now. PVP was straight out better in every single way back then without question. That is the key difference.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Right.

I'll take a "DK Vampire Bat Swarm Infinite Ultimate Spam" and a "Pre-Morrowind Blazeplar 1vX God" to go with my "Cheat Engine Flying Meteor Spammer," please?

I mean, I main a MagDK, so you'd think I'd be leaping (pun intended) at the chance to get my old reflecting Wings back or regain the ability to chain myself up on keep walls...

Thing is, what nobody discusses is exactly which update we'd be going back to, or how we'd address the imbalances that have been present in pretty much every update.

And everyone ignores that "Classic" means doing without basic gameplay that we've had for years. Pre-Imperial City? We still had Vet Ranks back then! Wanna go back to the soft caps build design too?

"Classic" means a lot of things to many people, and some of those things were downright unbalanced and overpowered. At this point, it's probably impractical anyways.

But let's be honest. ZOS could give us "Classic" PVP and we PVPers would still complain...probably the same complaints as the first time.

Although I wasn't talking about going quite thaaat far back combat wise and was just saying it to emphasize a point, I'd much rather have the DK and Blazeplar non-sense any day over the current Hrothgar/DC Proc set BS. It wasn't perfect back then by any means, but it was a hell of a lot more fun than current gameplay. Obviously I'm not saying completely make a separate Classic game, but rather a selection for a Classic Mode style combat on the Battlegrounds/Cyrodil campaign/game mode selection screen based off of the Skills/Class balance back then with slight tweaks for stamina morphs that weren't available for some classes that desperately needed them like Sorc/Stamplar/StamDK, but without all the homogenization that ruined class design. Not an easy task but surely a worthy endeavor, because they obviously aren't going the right direction as things stand now.

The point is, whatever has been done in the past few years clearly isn't working and is only making the game worse. Heck, when is the last time you saw something like a Magblade actually viable outside ganking/bombing with proc sets? There are plenty of other examples like this.

[snip]
[Edited for Bashing & Baiting]

I think that when I scratch the surface, it turns out that "Classic" means, "I think PVP should be balanced the way I want it, picking and choosing the best bits of stuff I liked from past updates."

I mean, that's basically what you just described, with your desired tweaks. It's not actually "Classic" once you start tweaking and balancing it. More like an idealized vision of past PVP that never was.

[edited to remove quote]

kargen27

"Also you're over exaggerating, the Cheat Engine nonsense happened for maybe like a week or two and wasn't very common."

PvP guilds had guides on what settings to use in cheat engine so you wouldn't get caught but could still have an advantage. Many players used cheat engine to speed up their mount justifying it by saying they just wanted to get back to the fight. Players were tweaking their recovery. The flying comet machines were in part an attempt to point out how rampant cheating actually was.
If they put calculations back on client side cheat engine is going to show up again.

DrSlaughtr

Hold up.

They lack the resources to buff up or replace the servers we currently have to deal with the lag that comes with it and people think they can pull off creating basically a whole new sub game that operates without taking a dump?

Also no way you'd get the community to remotely settle on when the best "classic" patch to go back to.

It's also very much a case of remembering things more fondly than the actual experience.

DtOG

Aznarb wrote: »

you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now

This simple sentence show that you've no clue how to balance PvP in a game.
If you can cancel anime a skill, then the opponent have no way to counter play since he don't see the animation.

Hence why it was play gank or play tank and nothing else.

Block canceling is the same thing and it’s op nerf please

iPeriphery

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Hold up.

They lack the resources to buff up or replace the servers we currently have to deal and the lag that comes with and people think they can pull off creating basically a whole new sub game that operates without taking a dump?

Also no way you'd get the community to remotely settle on when the best "classic" patch to go back to.

It's also very much a case of remembering things more fondly than the actual experience.

[snip] the original post says "PVP Campaign option in Cyrodil/BG Campaign selection." Not making a completely different game. [snip]

DtOG wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now

This simple sentence show that you've no clue how to balance PvP in a game.
If you can cancel anime a skill, then the opponent have no way to counter play since he don't see the animation.

Hence why it was play gank or play tank and nothing else.

Block canceling is the same thing and it’s op nerf please

How is block canceling OP? [snip]

[snip] Actually do something about the problem and HOLD THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE ACCOUNTABLE [snip]

There's a reason why I'm pissed, and that's because this is [snip] that has gone on for WAY too long, killing the game that I love with all my heart, and turning it into some skilless Frankenstein that is as unrecognizable as Zac Efron after his [snip] plastic surgery.

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

DrSlaughtr

iPeriphery wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Hold up.

They lack the resources to buff up or replace the servers we currently have to deal and the lag that comes with and people think they can pull off creating basically a whole new sub game that operates without taking a dump?

Also no way you'd get the community to remotely settle on when the best "classic" patch to go back to.

It's also very much a case of remembering things more fondly than the actual experience.

[snip] the original post says "PVP Campaign option in Cyrodil/BG Campaign selection." Not making a completely different game. [snip]

What you proposed would be a new fork of the game which would require it's own server, rewritten to be a poor mashup of features YOU think are desirable by a new team with new directors and producers. Not to mention the engine has changed significantly since those early days and that would also need major work to be what you think would be the best "classic" ESO.

It would be it's own game, just like what other companies had to do to make classic versions of their games.

[edited to remove quote]

iPeriphery

TheEndBringer wrote: »

iPeriphery wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Hold up.

They lack the resources to buff up or replace the servers we currently have to deal and the lag that comes with and people think they can pull off creating basically a whole new sub game that operates without taking a dump?

Also no way you'd get the community to remotely settle on when the best "classic" patch to go back to.

It's also very much a case of remembering things more fondly than the actual experience.

[snip] the original post says "PVP Campaign option in Cyrodil/BG Campaign selection." Not making a completely different game. [snip]

What you proposed would be a new fork of the game which would require it's own server, rewritten to be a poor mashup of features YOU think are desirable by a new team with new directors and producers. Not to mention the engine has changed significantly since those early days and that would also need major work to be what you think would be the best "classic" ESO.

It would be it's own game, just like what other companies had to do to make classic versions of their games.

[snip] It wouldn't need to be it's own game[snip]. It doesn't take more than simply having a PVP campaign in Cyro/BG with the skills changed just the same way they change skills now. Just like how FFXIV has completely different skills for PVP. That doesn't take much effort at all, and it's not just what I think is desirable, if you ask any hardcore PVPer that era is when PVP was the most fun and balanced. You can go back and look at the Data of PVP participation and see the graph steadily trend downwards from that point. [snip]

Zos has given up on PVP and won't do anything to fix it. [snip]

I've been watching them say they are going to fix [snip] for the past 6+ Years, don't even try me bro because it isn't ever going to happen, the only option is going backwards to before they ruined [snip] and taking ideas from then to implement now.

[edited for bashing, baiting, profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Hurbster

I have to admit that making your point by insulting anyone who disagrees with you isn't the best way to present an argument. Please, just chill out.

iPeriphery

Hurbster wrote: »

I have to admit that making your point by insulting anyone who disagrees with you isn't the best way to present an argument. Please, just chill out.

The time to chill was 3 maybe 4 years ago. Anyone who can't see the problem at this point is actually blind or just daft. No More Mr.Nice Guy; you see how far that has gotten us with Zos up to this point. [snip]

[edited for bashing & demands/threats]

Hurbster

Ok, well then.

iPeriphery

Hurbster wrote: »

Ok, well then.

Don't get me wrong, I still love you
You didn't do anything wrong. This is purely directed at the people responsible for ruining the game. Idk if you're a PVP player but if you've been around since beta like I have, it's the only logical conclusion to come to after being defecated upon year after year, for 7 years.

coop500

This thread is entertaining if nothing else

iPeriphery

coop500 wrote: »

This thread is entertaining if nothing else

I'm glad you are entertained Now if a lasting change for the good could actually happen, that would be [snip] great.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Franchise408

iPeriphery wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

iPeriphery wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

No.

Yes.
PVE isn't all there is to an MMO, thank you. The PVP Community needs some much deserved love.

I do both and that still a no. It was not better at all.

[snip] you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now. If you prefer the current version, fine. But it is clearly inferior, and the PVP population decline clearly indicates that. Every class has lost it's identity, and so many of the mechanics that made classes unique were stripped away. Idk how anyone could enjoy dumbed down skill-less PVP content. It's not even satisfying killing someone anymore, all the good hardcore pvpers have already long quit, nobody knows wtf they are doing anymore so fights feel like meaningless beating of a dog that can't defend themselves. Even on the off chance they did know how to fight semi-properly, the combat just doesn't even feel the same, it's so stiff and slow. [snip]

You shouldn't even be able to animation cancel period.

Animation cancel weaving was a bug that was left in, and is one of the absolute worst things about ESO combat.

[edited to remove quote]

moo_2021

Or they can just fix the weird lag, ability not firing after screen indicates click, not in CC but can't swap bar, etc. I even had bar swapped after a later ability fired and because of frequent lags I can't tell if it's my mistake or if I did swap bar.

Also auto break-free by server if player has enough stamina would help a lot in no-CP, if they can't fix the lag. It's hilarious most of my kills and deaths are caused by break-free not working, and my build is basically made on the bug.



While there are some technical difficulties, it seems like most of the problems were in fact introduced by ZOS themselves because apparently not one of them is playing PvP.

iPeriphery

moo_2021 wrote: »

Or they can just fix the weird lag, ability not firing after screen indicates click, not in CC but can't swap bar, etc. I even had bar swapped after a later ability fired and because of frequent lags I can't tell if it's my mistake or if I did swap bar.

Also auto break-free by server if player has enough stamina would help a lot in no-CP, if they can't fix the lag. It's hilarious most of my kills and deaths are caused by break-free not working, and my build is basically made on the bug.



While there are some technical difficulties, it seems like most of the problems were in fact introduced by ZOS themselves because apparently not one of them is playing PvP.

That's been going on for years man, I wouldn't hold my breath that they will ever fix anything tbh. They don't care at all.

iPeriphery

Franchise408 wrote: »

iPeriphery wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

iPeriphery wrote: »

kieso wrote: »

No.

Yes.
PVE isn't all there is to an MMO, thank you. The PVP Community needs some much deserved love.

I do both and that still a no. It was not better at all.

[snip] you can't even animation cancel the majority of ultimates now. If you prefer the current version, fine. But it is clearly inferior, and the PVP population decline clearly indicates that. Every class has lost it's identity, and so many of the mechanics that made classes unique were stripped away. Idk how anyone could enjoy dumbed down skill-less PVP content. It's not even satisfying killing someone anymore, all the good hardcore pvpers have already long quit, nobody knows wtf they are doing anymore so fights feel like meaningless beating of a dog that can't defend themselves. Even on the off chance they did know how to fight semi-properly, the combat just doesn't even feel the same, it's so stiff and slow. [snip]

You shouldn't even be able to animation cancel period.

Animation cancel weaving was a bug that was left in, and is one of the absolute worst things about ESO combat.

[edited to remove quote]

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard in my life. Animation Canceling is a core part of why the game's combat is even good. It is the sole thing that makes ESO Combat ACTUALLY good. You must be unable to Animation cancel and be bad at the game. Nobody except for you and maybe really bad casuals actually wants to be stuck in an animation.

ESO's combat without Animation Canceling is slow, unresponsive, and clunky. Good luck having anyone stick around to play a game like that. You are outta your mind.

Why do you think that they've kept it this whole time? Because as Bob Ross says, it's a "Happy Little Accident". The game would be worse off by a large margin without Animation Canceling, and would 100% cause a large majority of people to quit if they weren't able to do it anymore. At this point it is a CORE game mechanic.

AuraStorm43

We did no proc for 3 months, it was boring and still laggy, if you want no proc go play in ravenwatch

Psiion

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