The relentless endeavors rewards inflation (less and less seals for the same task)

Akskad

Dear ZOS,

I think that endeavors are a good addition. They give the possibility to obtain some nice crown items through daily tasks rather than real money.
However, what is going on with the rewards? What is causing this relentless inflation? We are getting less and less seals of endeavour for the same tasks.

For example:

Daily Endeavors July 15th 2021
Complete 1 Dungeon (20 Seals of Endeavor / 4,000 Experience points)
Defeat 1 Patrolling Horror in the Imperial City Districts (20 Seals of Endeavor / 4,000 Experience points)
Kill 15 Foes with Weapon Abilities (20 Seals of Endeavor / 4,000 Experience points)
Kill 2 World Bosses (20 Seals of Endeavor / 4,000 Experience points)
Pickpocket 6 Items (20 Seals of Endeavor / 4,000 Experience points)

Let's compare it with this one:

Daily Endeavors September 4th 2021
Complete 1 Battleground Match (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Consume 2 Drinks (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Craft 4 Items with the Alchemy skill (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Kill 5 Vampires (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Pickpocket 6 Items (10 Seals of Endeavor)

Look at pickpocketing: it was halved from 20 to 10. Ok, let's have a look at the other tasks from 15 July, for example "Complete 1 dungeon". It gave 20 seals of endeavors.

But look, on 29 August, for the same task, we got 10. This was also halved.

Daily Endeavors August 29th 2021
Collect 5 Pure Water Springs or Alchemical Plants (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Complete 1 Dungeon (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Excavate 1 Purple or Gold-quality Antiquity (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Kill 10 Foes with Class Abilities (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Update an Outfit 1 Time (10 Seals of Endeavor)

And what about the task "Defeat 1 Patrolling Horror in the Imperial City Districts (20 Seals of Endeavor / 4,000 Experience points)", that gave 20 seals in July?
Look here below: in September, the seals have also been halved.
Also note that, for example, now we have to kill 15 foes with class abilities instead of the 10 as of 29 August in order to get the same 10 seals.

Daily Endeavors September 9th 2021
Deconstruct 8 Items at a Blacksmithing table (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Defeat 1 Patrolling Horror in the Imperial City Districts (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Kill 15 Foes with Class Abilities (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Kill 2 Dangerous Foes (10 Seals of Endeavor)
Loot 2 Treasure Chests (10 Seals of Endeavor)

And so on, and so forth. The same applies to weekly endeavors.

To conclude, it is very, very, very sad and disappointing, to say the least, to see that such a wonderful initiative has been cut down. We have to do more and more for less and less.

Very sad and disappointing.

redspecter23

I think there are two issues here. First, ZOS never said the amount of seals would be tied to the activity. It became clear that it was set per day between 10 and 25 I believe. After setting the seal amount, daily activities are randomly picked from the list. It looks like any activity can appear any given day and it will receive rewards appropriate for that day.

The second part is that there does appear to be a downward trend in the amount of seals awarded over time. Yes, we see a range from 10 to 25 still, but it tends to be on the lower side lately. Whether that's pure RNG or was hand picked by ZOS to be that way for whatever reason, we can't say for sure, but the downward trend is clear when you look at the numbers over time. It may not be an intentional bait and switch, but it's hard for players to know intentions for sure. All we have to look at is the data.

Araneae6537

It would be nice if there were still daily tasks that gave 20, especially for longer / more difficult tasks like complete one dungeon or defeat one patrolling horror. Perhaps an option to consider would be having a daily cap on endeavors earned (50 seems a good number) and you could do whatever combination of tasks — a dungeon for 20, collect five alchemical reagents for 10, etc. Although really, why not leave it how it was in July? The lowest tier of collectibles cost 1000 seals of endeavor! Of course you want to keep the incentive to buy crates but surely the cost of the fanciest items and FOMO was enough for sales? I agree with @Akskad that seals of endeavor were a great addition to the game but it’s disappointing to see them reduced so.

PeacefulAnarchy

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think there are two issues here.

I agree. The reward/task correlation is non-existent, you can have back to back days with nearly identical tasks with different rewards. Doing a direct comparison like the OP will have issues with that.

A better comparison would be to look at a week by week cumulative trend of total rewards. It feels like it has been getting slightly lower, but I don't have the data. I will say that as time goes on my inclination to do endeavors for the rewards we get is waning. I don't think there have been enough rewards to earn an apex before the crate season ends, and with the cost scaling making the lower tier rewards unattractive it all feels like a bit too much of a grind even if individually the endeavors are mostly easy and appropriate.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Seal of endeavours remind me of those old facebook web navigator games....really they do.

I don't actively do them..if it happens it happens.

Not very impressed with the addition either as I mentioned in earlier posts: Too little too late.

xgoku1

Thanks for making a thread calling attention to this.

It's absolutely disgusting how they gutted the seal rates, now on most days the dailies only give 10 each. I remember there was a massive discussion on predatory monetization on day 1 when they were introduced, but that was considering 25 seals/day lol. Now the average per day is down from 88 to 77.

Inb4 "it's free hurr durr" - It's a loophole they are using to get around tightening regulations on GAMBLING. For people who are addicted to gambling in this game, I would argue that making it near-unattainable via extreme longterm grind in-game is gonna fuel their ADDICTION to gambling and make it even worse.

The house always wins.

thegreatme

xgoku1 wrote: »

Thanks for making a thread calling attention to this.

It's absolutely disgusting how they gutted the seal rates, now on most days the dailies only give 10 each. I remember there was a massive discussion on predatory monetization on day 1 when they were introduced, but that was considering 25 seals/day lol. Now the average per day is down from 88 to 77.

Inb4 "it's free hurr durr" - It's a loophole they are using to get around tightening regulations on GAMBLING. For people who are addicted to gambling in this game, I would argue that making it near-unattainable via extreme longterm grind in-game is gonna fuel their ADDICTION to gambling and make it even worse.

The house always wins.

Yeah, pretty much called that this was going to happen on Day 1. Brought it up again on Day 2.

Of course a lot of people wanted to argue "Its only the second day! You don't know what ZoS will do with the amount of seals!", claiming that we'd see enough high-reward days to matter.

But this is ZoS, and that's their pattern. Bait us in the first week or two with really nice rewards, then decrease it as time goes on. I hate to say it, but the company literally tries to love-bomb us like a bad relationship into thinking everything will be better this time than the last time they did it, and it never ends up that way lol

I wanted to be wrong, of course, but here we are.

Also just have to sit back and say "I told you so" for everyone arguing the seals would be consistent with activity difficulty like we were told, but clearly that's not happening either. Its just whatever ZoS feels like giving out that day. Nothing more, nothing less.

/shrug

Also add onto this the inflation of upcoming crate items. Suddenly they push personalities and costumes into the Apex category for 400 gems? In their own words, "for the first time ever"?

Right about the time people should be getting close to having Juuuuuust enough endeavors to afford an apex reward if they've been keeping on top of their daily endeavors?

Coincidence? Maybe, but I doubt it. I'm willing to bet endeavors have everything to do with justifying "Apex costumes/personalities". You can get them for free now, after all, so why not tip the scales and make the people who do pay real money for them pay more? Y'know. To make up for the people who will probably be getting them free, in theory.

ajkb78

It's not entirely fair to compare only the seals awarded on different days: on days when fewer seals are awarded, there is additionally a reward of either gold or XP for completing the endeavours. I've seen a fluctuation in the amounts awarded for both daily and weekly endeavours but while I think the first week was somewhat above the mean, it doesn't feel to me like the long term average has been changing too much when you account for not just the seals but also the gold / XP awarded. If someone has a log of endeavours every day since launch it would be pretty easy to plot a graph and check.

FR0STDEE

Remember when daily rewards where crown crates and such when they started. Did you think this would be different?

Hurbster

FR0STDEE wrote: »

Remember when daily rewards where crown crates and such when they started. Did you think this would be different?

Awww, don't remind me of those good days. Having the odd crate as a daily reward actually made me more likely to spend money on them.

Zyva

to me its the same EXACT thing they did with the daily/monthly rewards over time. They started out with something good to try and bring people to the game/ get people to log in, then nerfed it over time.

pdblake

Nerf over time or a NOT, coming to a set near you soon. Perhaps they'll make a skill out of it.

ajkb78

I think they removed crates from the daily login rewards because of loot box concerns, not because they necessarily wanted to nerf the rewards. Essentially it was thought to be luring all players into the real money gamble that is crates.

SeaGtGruff

Honestly, I'm fine with the way things are.

So far, I've been able to purchase two Legendary mounts or pets for 3600 SoE each, so I could have saved up my SoE instead and would now have a bit over 7200 SoE.

I've been able to purchase numerous pets, plus a mount on rare occasions, using the CGs that I've gotten from the free Crown Crate drops, but those were always the least-expensive pets and mounts, and it took a long time to save up enough CGs for even those rewards.

The SoE are allowing me to buy mounts and pets that it would have taken me much, much longer to save up enough CGs for, so I'm happy with them as they are.

I mean, quite frankly, it seems totally unrealistic to expect that ZOS would want to give away free Crown Crates as drops, and let us earn SoE, at rates which would seriously undermine their Crown Crate sales.

And I'm speaking as someone who's never purchased a single Crown Crate, and who is unlikely to ever purchase one. I'm more interested in spending my Crowns on DLCs and the occasional Crowns-only house.

MornaBaine

I don't even know how much I have. I don't even know how to look up what the rewards are each day and week. As I go about my gaming and a message pops up saying I got X endeavor done I'm like, "That's nice." Why? Because by now I know how these things work. The pattern with ZOS has been VERY consistent over the years.

Kiralyn2000

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Honestly, I'm fine with the way things are.

So far, I've been able to purchase two Legendary mounts or pets for 3600 SoE each, so I could have saved up my SoE instead and would now have a bit over 7200 SoE.

I've been able to purchase numerous pets, plus a mount on rare occasions, using the CGs that I've gotten from the free Crown Crate drops, but those were always the least-expensive pets and mounts, and it took a long time to save up enough CGs for even those rewards.

The SoE are allowing me to buy mounts and pets that it would have taken me much, much longer to save up enough CGs for, so I'm happy with them as they are.

I mean, quite frankly, it seems totally unrealistic to expect that ZOS would want to give away free Crown Crates as drops, and let us earn SoE, at rates which would seriously undermine their Crown Crate sales.

And I'm speaking as someone who's never purchased a single Crown Crate, and who is unlikely to ever purchase one. I'm more interested in spending my Crowns on DLCs and the occasional Crowns-only house.

Yep. I'm just puttering along saving up endeavor points. Nothing else I'm interested in with the current crates, so I'm just waiting for the new ones to come out, and decide if there's anything I want with my Seals & the Crown Gems I still have left from the Year Of Free Crates. Sure, it helps that I can't stand the mounts, so there's basically nothing I want in the top two or three tiers of items.

People seem to get way too worked up about these things. Maybe it's because I don't automatically see all dev companies as The Enemy, or view anything they do as hostile action? /shrug Been playing games for 40 years now. Stuff happens, just roll with it.


(I'd love to see an updated graph of the weekly Endeavor totals, maybe including XP & gold. One of those line graphs with multiple stats stacked together in colored bands, maybe? Of course, it's hard to include how 'easy' the tasks were in a graph like that - things like "the third weekly was 40 less seals, but were super easy to complete so 50% more people earned the weekly reward")

Sylvermynx

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Honestly, I'm fine with the way things are.

So far, I've been able to purchase two Legendary mounts or pets for 3600 SoE each, so I could have saved up my SoE instead and would now have a bit over 7200 SoE.

I've been able to purchase numerous pets, plus a mount on rare occasions, using the CGs that I've gotten from the free Crown Crate drops, but those were always the least-expensive pets and mounts, and it took a long time to save up enough CGs for even those rewards.

The SoE are allowing me to buy mounts and pets that it would have taken me much, much longer to save up enough CGs for, so I'm happy with them as they are.

I mean, quite frankly, it seems totally unrealistic to expect that ZOS would want to give away free Crown Crates as drops, and let us earn SoE, at rates which would seriously undermine their Crown Crate sales.

And I'm speaking as someone who's never purchased a single Crown Crate, and who is unlikely to ever purchase one. I'm more interested in spending my Crowns on DLCs and the occasional Crowns-only house.

Yep. I'm just puttering along saving up endeavor points. Nothing else I'm interested in with the current crates, so I'm just waiting for the new ones to come out, and decide if there's anything I want with my Seals & the Crown Gems I still have left from the Year Of Free Crates. Sure, it helps that I can't stand the mounts, so there's basically nothing I want in the top two or three tiers of items.

People seem to get way too worked up about these things. Maybe it's because I don't automatically see all dev companies as The Enemy, or view anything they do as hostile action? /shrug Been playing games for 40 years now. Stuff happens, just roll with it.


(I'd love to see an updated graph of the weekly Endeavor totals, maybe including XP & gold. One of those line graphs with multiple stats stacked together in colored bands, maybe? Of course, it's hard to include how 'easy' the tasks were in a graph like that - things like "the third weekly was 40 less seals, but were super easy to complete so 50% more people earned the weekly reward")

Agreed.

Darkstorne

First of all:

Secondly, it's free stuff for incredibly easy tasks. 10 endeavours for a daily may be half as many as we got in July, but it's still 10 more than we got for the previous seven years.

Presumably they started high and dropped the values, watching engagement metrics to try and judge when the rewards are too small for players to bother caring about. If they're sticking with 10, they probably feel like it's the sweet spot.

SammyKhajit

If they give out the ten points it’d be nice to throw in bonus coins or experience points. Otherwise it’s really a waste of time.

Araneae6537

Ah, I had not realized that there has been variation (randomization?) in seals awarded per endeavor per day. How much I’ve been able to play these past months has varied but I had thought I remembered twenty and then the past few days were ten and I misinterpreted the original post to say they used to always be 20 each and now were always 10 each. But I see that today they are 15.

Anyway, I think they are a great addition as I am not interested in buying most crates but from many there is an item or two that I would like.

virtus753

redspecter23 wrote: »

I think there are two issues here. First, ZOS never said the amount of seals would be tied to the activity. It became clear that it was set per day between 10 and 25 I believe. After setting the seal amount, daily activities are randomly picked from the list. It looks like any activity can appear any given day and it will receive rewards appropriate for that day.

The second part is that there does appear to be a downward trend in the amount of seals awarded over time. Yes, we see a range from 10 to 25 still, but it tends to be on the lower side lately. Whether that's pure RNG or was hand picked by ZOS to be that way for whatever reason, we can't say for sure, but the downward trend is clear when you look at the numbers over time. It may not be an intentional bait and switch, but it's hard for players to know intentions for sure. All we have to look at is the data.

Yes, ZOS did say they would be tied to the specific activity and in particular its "challenge level":

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7298821/#Comment_7298821

RandomKodiak

I don't even remember they are a thing most days. About half the time I have two of them done just doing what ever I was doing in the first place. It's free extra stuff if you think they are not worth doing every day don't chances are you will look one day and be able to get a free crown crate item anyway

VaranisArano

ajkb78 wrote: »

It's not entirely fair to compare only the seals awarded on different days: on days when fewer seals are awarded, there is additionally a reward of either gold or XP for completing the endeavours. I've seen a fluctuation in the amounts awarded for both daily and weekly endeavours but while I think the first week was somewhat above the mean, it doesn't feel to me like the long term average has been changing too much when you account for not just the seals but also the gold / XP awarded. If someone has a log of endeavours every day since launch it would be pretty easy to plot a graph and check.

Yes, it's totally fair to compare the Seals offered.

Extra exp or gold doesn't have anything to do with Crown Crates. Seals of Endeavor are the only currency unique to Endeavors and can only be acquired from Endeavors.

So when we see that less Seals are being offered over time, there's no substitute. It's not like giving players more gold or more exp is somehow an equal trade. No, less Seals means it's harder to buy items with Seals, period.


There was a thread tracking daily and weekly Seal amounts. I don't know if the person doing it has kept up with current data.

thegreatme

Hurbster wrote: »

Awww, don't remind me of those good days. Having the odd crate as a daily reward actually made me more likely to spend money on them.

I remember there was a point where we got 8 free crown crates for like 2 months. Then it was 5 crates, then 1.

Then when people kept reminiscing about it, they brought out "preview" crates, and you know damn well people were expecting actual crates. Instead we got those dumb little pre-chosen mini-pets they could capitalize on later with "Didn't get the one you want? Spend crowns to get the one you do!", which wasn't a terrible business model on their end, but a pretty crappy bait-and-switch the first time around before we found out what they really were.

Now those have gone away as well, so far at least.

Point being, they always do this to us. We get something really nice at the start, and then they take it away. New players won't remember those days of course, but anyone who's been around a while will. Their patterns never change, you just always have enough new players around to lull into thinking they're getting a good deal that won't possibly go away as quickly as ZoS can justify.

MornaBaine wrote: »

Why? Because by now I know how these things work. The pattern with ZOS has been VERY consistent over the years.

Exactly.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

People seem to get way too worked up about these things. Maybe it's because I don't automatically see all dev companies as The Enemy, or view anything they do as hostile action?

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

SilverBride

It's free stuff...

VaranisArano

SilverBride wrote: »

It's free stuff...

It's not just free stuff.

Specifically, Seals of Endeavor is ZOS' excuse for why Crown Crates should not be regulated as part of the general pressure on the video game industry to reform their practices concerning loot crates. The existence of Seals of Endeavor allows ZOS to point at Endeavors and say "Look, players can earn these items for free. They just have to play the game and get Seals for it."

And thus, it actually is rather important to note when ZOS is lowering the amount of Seals that can be obtained by playing the game. Lower amounts mean more Crown Crate sales, and also means that the Seals of Endeavor system is more of an act for the benefit of Industry regulators than it actually is to the benefit of players.


Of course, if all you want out of Seals is to occasionally pick up some free stuff, I don't expect you to be unhappy with the system.

Me...I've been watching the whole loot crate business, and I'm not thrilled to see ZOS lowering Seal amounts (much as they did with bonus crates and daily login rewards). I expected it - ZOS is an extremely profit-driven company and Seals of Endeavor is all about protecting Crown Crate profits - but it's nonetheless disappointing.

thegreatme

SilverBride wrote: »

It's free stuff...

Free stuff that's more than likely inflating the gem cost of items more than they were already being inflated.

Without ESO+ discounts--

Cheapest Crown Store outfit: 400 crowns
Average Crown Store outfit: 500-1,000 crowns
Costume 3-packs: 700 crowns
Most expensive average: 2,000 crowns
Most expensive of all: 2,500 crowns (Renegade Dragon Priest)

Average Crown Crate Costume: 40 gems
Most Expensive Crown Crate Costume: 100 gems



Naryu's Morag Tong Costume + Goggles
1,400 crowns

Naryu's Morag Tong Costume in Crates
Legendary Tier, 100 gems - roughly 4,000 - 5,000 crowns WITHOUT the goggles

Garb of Grinning Horrors Costume
Apex Tier, 400 gems - roughly 15,000 - 20,000 crowns




Cheapest Crown Store Personalities: 500 crowns for 3 personalities
Average Crown Store Personalities: 700-1,200 crowns
Most Expensive Crown Story Personality: 1,500 crowns
Most Expensive Crown Crate Personality: 100 gems

Maniacle Jester Personality:
400 gems - Roughly 15,000 - 20,000 crowns


Remember when we got a whole Polymorph with its own personality for 400 gems? I do. Well now you have to essentially pay double to get that sweet, sweet costume (not even a polymorph) + the personality.



Conveniently this sudden 4x - 10x gem cost inflation just happens to come right at the time people should have enough endeavors saved up to afford Apex Tier if they haven't used theirs up already, while ZoS keeps trying to give us as few Endeavors as they can possibly justify, both in Daily and Weekly endeavor amounts.

Idk about you but the timing seems a little weird to me. Who knows for sure, really, outside of ZoS[snip].

[edited for bashing]

Kiralyn2000

Hurbster wrote: »

FR0STDEE wrote: »

Remember when daily rewards where crown crates and such when they started. Did you think this would be different?

Awww, don't remind me of those good days. Having the odd crate as a daily reward actually made me more likely to spend money on them.

I'm always willing to accept & open free (and/or 'earned in-game') crates in games.

It's a nice reminder that they're not worth spending actual $ on.

The more free crates they give, the less likely I'll ever buy one.

SilverBride

thegreatme wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

It's free stuff...

Free stuff that's more than likely inflating the gem cost of items more than they were already being inflated.

I don't buy items with gems, but I have gotten 4 5 different items with endeavors so far, for free.

Mythreindeer

Well, you don’t have to buy crown crates or gem items. It’s all fluff. SoE are a way to get nonessential game-related items for free. I don’t get the whining. There have been plenty of games that introduced p2w and pay-to-avoid-extreme-grind items, like LoTRO. ZOS hasn’t done that. If they do, I’m out and you should be too as we as players should feel an obligation to avoid games run without integrity. Things aren’t bad at all in this game as far as the cash store. Expensive yes, but still only for cosmetics. If they were to move aurbic amber to the cash store that’s when you get hostile.

Amottica

I think more than two weeks need to be compared. With the short time this has been part of the game we should look at every week to see if there is an issue.