New Content has primarily catered to existing players for at least the past 3 years

Iccotak

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I think players forget how they struggled with their first toon in overland. I had the misfortune of picking stamblade for mine so I will never forget.

I made some videos of the first time I cleared a delve solo and got a bunch of thumbs down for them. The struggle was real.

Since then I’ve gotten a build and the right gear.

I agree with OP though. I can solo some base game WBs and run through those public dungeons without food and in my sneaking gear, but the ones in the new zones just kick my butt with my dps gear and fully buffed with food.

I finally got someone to admit on my thread about normal Vateshran difficulty that it was indeed designed to be more difficult than normal Maelstrom Arena. I had to get a Mythic item to finally complete the last boss.

I think ESO does try to cater to casuals more nowadays, since that has to be a large percentage of the player base, but am confused to why dlc dungeons and WBs and such are harder as well.

I had struggle back in the day of veteran ranks. Any new character I start it’s a walk in the park for them - without CP or help from my main.

Any of my friends are introduced to the game left it because it was too easy, they liked the dungeons and dolmens because they found that engaging.

but the majority of the questing content (which is the majority of the content) we’re too easy to the point that it sucked the fun out of the story.

By the way these guys were all elder scrolls fans.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Let's look at the content added, shall we?

For New Players
Delves
Public Dungeons
Overland Quests

For Mid Tier players
World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons (higher end of mid-tier)

For Elite players
Vet Dungeon HM and achievements
Vet Trials

For the top 1%
Vet Trial Achievements

For PVP players
.....

You just mentioned the types of content. Where's the percentages?

Take Blackwood chapter for example. [Delves + Public Dungeons + Overland Quests] are a lot more content than the few [world bosses + world events + one trial] in that chapter.

And I don't agree Housing is for players in mid tier and up. You don't have to spend millions to take part in housing and have fun. Not like every player wants to make the most outstanding house in Tamriel and win housing competitions. New players can do housing just fine with simple furnishing items you find and craft. A new player can start out with the free inn rooms and buy small houses from in-game gold without much issues. (house gold prices aren't affected by gold inflation after all, so it's easier to buy houses now. Talking about buying houses from the game directly, not via crown selling)

The inn rooms with the furniture they can make is pretty intentionally sparse. Even the materials for crafting a chair is a lot of money for someone who struggles to afford a mount. They let them whet their appetite, but to make a nice house, not even competition worthy just a nice little place, can easily set you back a couple hundred thousand coins. And that's just not something new people easily part with.

In terms of gameplay hours, dungeons and trials provide way more content due to replayability. In terms of the number of new things to look at, questing provides more. So it's meaningless to provide percentages, because you're basically comparing apples to oranges. Questing has more new stuff to hear, but it's not designed to be replayed over and over. It's one and done. So the dungeons, trials, world bosses, etc tend to take up way more gameplay hours than the story.

The “re-playable Content“ is designed for a group. And questing still has more variety in amount of content in comparison to dungeons.

In order to do Trials one generally has to get a group together for it. Unlike dungeons, trials doesn’t have a matchmaker system.

So as it stands, questing is the most readily available and has the most variety.

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Let's look at the content added, shall we?

For New Players
Delves
Public Dungeons
Overland Quests

For Mid Tier players
World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons (higher end of mid-tier)

For Elite players
Vet Dungeon HM and achievements
Vet Trials

For the top 1%
Vet Trial Achievements

For PVP players
.....

You just mentioned the types of content. Where's the percentages?

Take Blackwood chapter for example. [Delves + Public Dungeons + Overland Quests] are a lot more content than the few [world bosses + world events + one trial] in that chapter.

And I don't agree Housing is for players in mid tier and up. You don't have to spend millions to take part in housing and have fun. Not like every player wants to make the most outstanding house in Tamriel and win housing competitions. New players can do housing just fine with simple furnishing items you find and craft. A new player can start out with the free inn rooms and buy small houses from in-game gold without much issues. (house gold prices aren't affected by gold inflation after all, so it's easier to buy houses now. Talking about buying houses from the game directly, not via crown selling)

The inn rooms with the furniture they can make is pretty intentionally sparse. Even the materials for crafting a chair is a lot of money for someone who struggles to afford a mount. They let them whet their appetite, but to make a nice house, not even competition worthy just a nice little place, can easily set you back a couple hundred thousand coins. And that's just not something new people easily part with.

In terms of gameplay hours, dungeons and trials provide way more content due to replayability. In terms of the number of new things to look at, questing provides more. So it's meaningless to provide percentages, because you're basically comparing apples to oranges. Questing has more new stuff to hear, but it's not designed to be replayed over and over. It's one and done. So the dungeons, trials, world bosses, etc tend to take up way more gameplay hours than the story.

The “re-playable Content“ is designed for a group. And questing still has more variety in amount of content in comparison to dungeons.

In order to do Trials one generally has to get a group together for it. Unlike dungeons, trials doesn’t have a matchmaker system.

So as it stands, questing is the most readily available and has the most variety.

That's all true, but they go out of their way to make the group mid-tier player friendly. To the point people on the higher end of it, or elites, can solo a lot of it. Regardless, this is an MMO. It's expected you'll spend plenty of time in groups. The game will get old very quickly if the only thing you do is content designed specifically for solo play.

That leaves you with quests, public dungeons, and solo arenas.

Which might be the majority of gameplay hours of someone who refuses to have anything to do with others, but that's not really the norm nor how the game was designed. The game was designed for you to have some stuff you do alone and some stuff you do with others.

nud3_voxel

Let's see:

Antiquities
Endeavors
Every single events (except maybe midyear) with cosmetic/housing rewards that go with it
New zones to explore/quests
Companions
New houses/housing items
Constant dungeon/trial nerfs
Normal dungeons

are all catered for casual players.

Veteran players get one trial per year and a couple dungeons that can be somewhat difficult to complete on vet HM (yet still VERY easily doable on normal for casual players). I think it's pretty fair to say the game caters to all the player base.

spartaxoxo

nud3_voxel wrote: »

Let's see:

Antiquities
Endeavors
Every single events (except maybe midyear) with cosmetic/housing rewards that go with it
New zones to explore/quests
Companions
New houses/housing items
Constant dungeon/trial nerfs
Normal dungeons

are all catered for casual players.

Veteran players get one trial per year and a couple dungeons that can be somewhat difficult to complete on vet HM (yet still VERY easily doable on normal for casual players). I think it's pretty fair to say the game caters to all the player base.

Do you not think there's a difference at all between mid-tier players and casual players? Because I keep seeing this comment where people define vet players mostly as how I defined high-mid/elite, and casual the entire rest of the playerbase.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

nud3_voxel wrote: »

Let's see:

Antiquities
Endeavors
Every single events (except maybe midyear) with cosmetic/housing rewards that go with it
New zones to explore/quests
Companions
New houses/housing items
Constant dungeon/trial nerfs
Normal dungeons

are all catered for casual players.

Veteran players get one trial per year and a couple dungeons that can be somewhat difficult to complete on vet HM (yet still VERY easily doable on normal for casual players). I think it's pretty fair to say the game caters to all the player base.

Do you not think there's a difference at all between mid-tier players and casual players? Because I keep seeing this comment where people define vet players mostly as how I defined high-mid/elite, and casual the entire rest of the playerbase.

Define a mid tier player

Like someone who dabbles in a bit of everything?

What the main difference between them and a casual player?

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Let's look at the content added, shall we?

For New Players
Delves
Public Dungeons
Overland Quests

For Mid Tier players
World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons (higher end of mid-tier)

For Elite players
Vet Dungeon HM and achievements
Vet Trials

For the top 1%
Vet Trial Achievements

For PVP players
.....

You just mentioned the types of content. Where's the percentages?

Take Blackwood chapter for example. [Delves + Public Dungeons + Overland Quests] are a lot more content than the few [world bosses + world events + one trial] in that chapter.

And I don't agree Housing is for players in mid tier and up. You don't have to spend millions to take part in housing and have fun. Not like every player wants to make the most outstanding house in Tamriel and win housing competitions. New players can do housing just fine with simple furnishing items you find and craft. A new player can start out with the free inn rooms and buy small houses from in-game gold without much issues. (house gold prices aren't affected by gold inflation after all, so it's easier to buy houses now. Talking about buying houses from the game directly, not via crown selling)

The inn rooms with the furniture they can make is pretty intentionally sparse. Even the materials for crafting a chair is a lot of money for someone who struggles to afford a mount. They let them whet their appetite, but to make a nice house, not even competition worthy just a nice little place, can easily set you back a couple hundred thousand coins. And that's just not something new people easily part with.

In terms of gameplay hours, dungeons and trials provide way more content due to replayability. In terms of the number of new things to look at, questing provides more. So it's meaningless to provide percentages, because you're basically comparing apples to oranges. Questing has more new stuff to hear, but it's not designed to be replayed over and over. It's one and done. So the dungeons, trials, world bosses, etc tend to take up way more gameplay hours than the story.

The “re-playable Content“ is designed for a group. And questing still has more variety in amount of content in comparison to dungeons.

In order to do Trials one generally has to get a group together for it. Unlike dungeons, trials doesn’t have a matchmaker system.

So as it stands, questing is the most readily available and has the most variety.

That's all true, but they go out of their way to make the group mid-tier player friendly. To the point people on the higher end of it, or elites, can solo a lot of it. Regardless, this is an MMO. It's expected you'll spend plenty of time in groups. The game will get old very quickly if the only thing you do is content designed specifically for solo play.

That leaves you with quests, public dungeons, and solo arenas.

Which might be the majority of gameplay hours of someone who refuses to have anything to do with others, but that's not really the norm nor how the game was designed. The game was designed for you to have some stuff you do alone and some stuff you do with others.

I’m someone who does both questing and dungeons and sometimes trials (because getting a group together for Trials is a pain)

And if I have to look over what has the most hours - by far the hundreds upon hundreds of hours of questing.

It’s not an even spread - it’s not 50/50 - especially now with the sticker book.

Questing is the majority of the game and experience for not only the average player but also people who play endgame.

Yeah dungeons are repeatable but you still need to do Overland to get the skill points (Main Quest & Skyshards) necessary for keeping up your builds to do those dungeons at higher tiers.

So even though dungeons are repeatable players still have to dedicate a large amount of time to questing and Overland- even now with mythics,

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

nud3_voxel wrote: »

Let's see:

Antiquities
Endeavors
Every single events (except maybe midyear) with cosmetic/housing rewards that go with it
New zones to explore/quests
Companions
New houses/housing items
Constant dungeon/trial nerfs
Normal dungeons

are all catered for casual players.

Veteran players get one trial per year and a couple dungeons that can be somewhat difficult to complete on vet HM (yet still VERY easily doable on normal for casual players). I think it's pretty fair to say the game caters to all the player base.

Do you not think there's a difference at all between mid-tier players and casual players? Because I keep seeing this comment where people define vet players mostly as how I defined high-mid/elite, and casual the entire rest of the playerbase.

Define a mid tier player

Like someone who dabbles in a bit of everything?

What the main difference between them and a casual player?

Generally time and the content they are able to do. A lot of casual players can't and don't touch random Vet, because they can't do Vet DLCs, for example. They call for help for world bosses more experienced players can solo, even if they aren't elites. etc, etc. Generally people in mid-tiers will help some of them transition to being more skilled, sometimes though they are content to just stay at that level forever. e.g. the 5k dps that prefers to roleplay, or whatever. A lot of people at that level are new to the game, but there are people who are content to engage in only that level of play because they just don't want to do things with groups. A LOT of guilds are composed of mid-teir players teaching casual/new players the ins and outs of the game and helping them with stuff, and then some people go onto Elite level (vet dlc trials, for example) but most don't and kinda stay at that mid-level, where they aren't doing anything like VET DLC dungeon achievements or Vet trials.

Given that there is a skill gap these people help the casual/new players overcome, it seems reductive to me call those players casuals. But I also wouldn't call them elite players either, because the community doing that kind of content is actually pretty small.

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

And if I have to look over what has the most hours - by far the hundreds upon hundreds of hours of questing.

It’s not an even spread - it’s not 50/50 - especially now with the sticker book.

Questing is the majority of the game and experience for not only the average player but also people who play endgame.

Yeah dungeons are repeatable but you still need to do Overland to get the skill points (Main Quest & Skyshards) necessary for keeping up your builds to do those dungeons at higher tiers.

So even though dungeons are repeatable players still have to dedicate a large amount of time to questing and Overland- even now with mythics,

I'd say about 60/40 with the losing end being questing for me personally. If I want skillpoints, I grab skyshards for the most part. I actually know tons of people that are the same and don't quest much, outside of dailies which has one solo thing (delves) and two group things (world bosses/world events) for the most part.

I finish the storyline for a zone in a couple of days, it takes me weeks to finish off the daily achievements (world bosses, world events) and do trials and arenas, which is basically how they are designed.

LashanW

spartaxoxo wrote: »

drunkendx wrote: »

*checks ESO Steam discussions*

Several threads [snip] how game is too easy.

Yes, DLC content is harder than base game content.

But it's not that much harder...

So you just making stuff on me or what? Prove it. Because I know for certain that I haven't made several threads where I complained about where game is too easy.

When he said "OP", he meant the posters of those steam discussions, [Snip].

[Edited for rude comment]

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

drunkendx wrote: »

*checks ESO Steam discussions*

Several threads [snip] how game is too easy.

Yes, DLC content is harder than base game content.

But it's not that much harder...

So you just making stuff on me or what? Prove it. Because I know for certain that I haven't made several threads where I complained about where game is too easy.

When he said "OP", he meant the posters of those steam discussions, [Snip].

I am the original poster. Saying "OP" is a reference to me, and there's zero reason to bring them up and link them to the OP if he wasn't trying to claim the OP (me) had posted those.

Ishtarknows

You left out something. The continuing nerfing of "elite" content. Take Halls of Fabrication for example. It's a shadow of its former self, you can't visit mournhold or Elden Root and not see Tick Tock titles on XbEu and couple that with the increase to base damage you could argue that everything is getting more achievable.

New/ casual players got a massive chunk of Blackwood content - companions. I have neither want nor need for them but I can see roleplayers and new people do.

LashanW

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

When he said "OP", he meant the posters of those steam discussions, [Snip].

I am the original poster. Saying "OP" is a reference to me, and there's zero reason to bring them up and link them to the OP if he wasn't trying to claim the OP (me) had posted those.

Ok whatever, only brought it up because I also saw some steam threads claiming the overall game as too easy (not made by you ofc). [Snip].

[Edited for baiting]

xgoku1

If the question is why there is a perception of "game is catered towards casuals". I would say it's a popular sentiment among mid-to-endgame players due to a lack of appreciation for them."Casuls" are an easy target to direct the discontent towards.

Some of the big points mentioned usually are, in no particular order:

1. Overland mobs difficulty. Doing quests after you reach a decent CP is so easy its boring.
2. No big PvP content - after 2017's Battlegrounds. No love for Cyrodiil.
3. This year's big gimmick, "Companions" is almost useless for everyone, + ZOS claims overtly that it is aimed at casual players
4. Endless claims of "performance improvements", community is jaded
5. Lot of the resources seem aimed at world-building, quests, voice acting etc. which a casual would appreciate; but since others feel left out, they consider that a binary choice, and the RP aspects depriving their playstyle
   
   Finally:
   Community engagement. A lot of the communication from ZOS, that means Community Managers, etc. seem aimed at pushing this diverse playstyle aspect of ESO but with a bias towards getting new players into the game. Noone talks about endgame players, or mid-game players. I would say this is the biggest reason, because it feels like ZOS endorses a casual playstyle ONLY.
   
   It's a perception. All players of the game need active encouragement and love. ZOSpai pls notice.
   

newtinmpls

xgoku1 wrote: »

If the question is why there is a perception of "game is catered towards casuals". I would say it's a popular sentiment among mid-to-endgame players due to a lack of appreciation for them

What defines "casual"?

And if lots of "casual" players have been playing (and spending) for years - why would ZoS NOT aim content to them?

honglatongla

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

Dragons definitely harder, why shouldn't they be? They're dragons and not very outdated content like Dolmens that are from a different time.
Every public dungeon is easy.
The Cauldron and IC sewers? Why are you comparing a gruop dungeon to a PvP/E zone? If you meant IC Prison dungeon then yes, the Cauldron is even easier because it has less annoying mechanics.
Of course Rockgrove is harder than Crags, it should be.
Yup.

ajkb78

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And the game has been getting harder and harder.

Let's look at the content added, shall we?

For New Players
Delves
Public Dungeons
Overland Quests

For Mid Tier players
World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons (higher end of mid-tier)


For Elite players
Vet Dungeon HM and achievements (lower end of elite, arguably mid-tier) <---[I am here, for the sake of transparency]
Vet Trials <---[I could probably do this if I found the right group, for the sake of transparency. I have beat vet DLC trial bosses before, but haven't cleared an entire vet dlc trial. The couple of times I tried the groups fell apart due to in-fighting or lack of ability to coordinate schedules, for the sake of full disclosure]

For the top 1%
Vet Trial Achievements

For PVP players
.....


Where does this idea that the game caters most of it's new content to new players come from? They barely have anything. The vast majority of this game caters to established players of moderate skill. Housing is extremely expensive and requires millions. New players don't have that kind of money, regardless if it's easy to decorate. New players often don't have friends or guild mates either, so they basically get by doing the story quests and grinding out early achievements like getting all the fragments from a public dungeon for a neat new cosmetic, or doing their delve dailies to get that cool outfit. Perhaps this was the case when the game first launched, and everyone was new. But why are we still holding Fungal Grotto against the new player content 7 years later? This game hasn't functioned that way in years. That they have so much content is purely a matter of this game being old. The overall trajectory of this game is to cater more and more to established players of moderate skill. They shifted World Bosses to established players since like Craglorn. World Events during Summerset. New players and low skill players have a pretty tough time against the named bosses from geysers.

I often see mid tier players often claim they aren't getting enough of the new content, and that the majority of it is catering to new players. But that is absolutely not the case. They are getting the majority of it. New players actually don't have much in the way of re-playable content. The story quests are only good as a tutorial, and only able to be done once. This game is actually really daunting to new players. I often see them asking for tips on how to play it, begging for coins because they can't even afford a little horse, etc. The majority of them just want to get to mid-game. They view the elite content as too daunting and see that the majority of content is catered towards mid-tiered players and would actually be fun if they can get their gear sorted, their character levelled, and their coin up enough to participate in those activities meaningfully. This means not just being carried by an established character while they die over and over to AOE.

This post isn't to disparage the idea there shouldn't be optional ways to have a greater challenge in overland. I'd be up for something like a self-debuff that made things truly feel optional to players, and would probably use it myself. I am also currently a mid-tier player that doesn't feel like doing the massive time commitment it takes to do elite content, but also finds a lot of the mid-tier stuff pretty easy. I think the mid-tier players that can do vet dungeons are the main ones with this complaint because normal dungeons are so easy it can be really easy to forget how difficult they are for new players.

But I just wanted to combat this idea most of the content being added is for newbies. It's not! A new player has a hard time with a lot of the content in this game. It actually can be quite daunting!

New players have plenty to go at with the base game though. There is hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay in the base game without ever touching a DLC. Why on earth would new content primarily target new players when they still have all of the base game to go at? DLC is additional content, to add to players' experiences when they've outgrown the base game. Personally I'd like to see some harder overland content in DLCs, akin to Craglorn (and maybe even old pre-nerf Craglorn) but by and large DLC difficulty seems reasonably well aimed.

spartaxoxo

ajkb78 wrote: »

New players have plenty to go at with the base game though. There is hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay in the base game without ever touching a DLC. Why on earth would new content primarily target new players when they still have all of the base game to go at? DLC is additional content, to add to players' experiences when they've outgrown the base game. Personally I'd like to see some harder overland content in DLCs, akin to Craglorn (and maybe even old pre-nerf Craglorn) but by and large DLC difficulty seems reasonably well aimed.

I didn't say it should target new players (although a portion always should to attract new people during the newest expansion). I'm merely pointing out that it does not. It mostly targets people who are mid-tier established players e.g. the majority of the playerbase. I see it commonly stated that the game mostly targets new/casual players. But if you look at the new content it's generally harder than the older content. Some people tried to claim it was only because the old stuff got nerfed, and that's partially true, but people were soloing same-level dolmens at like level 20 even back then, and I found plenty of threads illustrating that even when they were hard. DLC is generally harder than the base game stuff, as it should be.