New Content has primarily catered to existing players for at least the past 3 years

colossalvoids

Let's look at the content added, shall we?

For New Players
Delves
Public Dungeons
Overland Quests

For Mid Tier players
World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons (higher end of mid-tier)


For Elite players
Vet Dungeon HM and achievements (lower end of elite, arguably mid-tier) <---[I am here, for the sake of transparency]
Vet Trials <---[I could probably do this if I found the right group, for the sake of transparency. I have beat vet DLC trial bosses before, but haven't cleared an entire vet dlc trial. The couple of times I tried the groups fell apart due to in-fighting or lack of ability to coordinate schedules, for the sake of full disclosure]

For the top 1%
Vet Trial Achievements

For PVP players
.....

I'll be completely honest here and not bait to the model presented. When I was a beginner I didn't felt that:

World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons

Were content aimed for a different public, sure some of it wasn't soloable but I went into mmo so would be kinda strange to expect the game bind to my sole will? Was doing all the stuff from said list with passion when was able to, my first veteran dungeon was in 2 month I've played eso I believe, it was ICP when it was still a nightmare mode but my random pug wasn't really concerned about cp140-150 clueless newbie there and it was a blast.

Vet one is kinda my own experience and possibly a stretch as nowadays people fear of doing vets even being mid cp but other parts of overland still stands. Normal dungeons, wb and public dungeons are the content that new people running already in masses. I'd say it's a lot of content to consume and end game activities are such a low percent that many ignore it after years and years of play without any regret.

Asardes

End game activities:
- For end game PVE, 4 dungeons 1 solo or 4 man arena and 1 trial per year, the normal versions of which you can also do on a mid tier character
- Literally no new PVP content has been added in almost 4 years, since they added BGs, and there's almost 3 years (Murkmire patch) since they added the last BG arena and a few new mechanics in Cyrodiil .

The other stuff they added are just a bunch of overland areas and quests you can literally complete on any new character that's out of the tutorial, with random gear and now CP and they're designed as such.

Katlefiya

Vhozek wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

From a gameplay and storytelling standpoint the new DLC zones are specifically catering to new players.

Which is weird cause.. is the game even growing? What new players? Most PC players play their games on Steam and Steam numbers are stagnant. If you tell me they don't and instead download the launcher, then you mean veteran MMO players are these so called "new" players. They are not new. They can handle themselves just fine. New players aren't stopping themselves to download the launcher instead. This is my first MMO and I play through Steam, posting on here very often about the game's difficulty being too easy.

Not everyone uses Steam if it can be avoided. If a game offers me the choice, I will happily download it myself, because not using Steam is removing an additional single-point-of-failure that could prevent me from playing my games.

Galwylin

Every year feels like a new push for new players to me *shrug*

Lucozade85

The game feels casual to me.

Based on my own opinion and experience.
Trials - The only real challenges are vSS HM, vCR HM, vAS HM, vKA HM and vRG HM. The rest of them are easy. That's not to say I haven't had bad experience in the others before. It just depends on your teams skill & dps.

Dungeons - Vet DLC dungeons are the only fun / challenging dungeons but even the majority of those are quite easy (excluding some!)

Overland - Some world bosses, Harrowstorms and Dragons, the rest of it just dies when the wind blows.

I'm not bothered about housing, trading, mounts, outfits etc so it does often make me wonder if I'm playing the right game lol

LashanW

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

You just mentioned the types of content. Where's the percentages?

Take Blackwood chapter for example. [Delves + Public Dungeons + Overland Quests] are a lot more content than the few [world bosses + world events + one trial] in that chapter.

In terms of gameplay hours, dungeons and trials provide way more content due to replayability. In terms of the number of new things to look at, questing provides more. So it's meaningless to provide percentages, because you're basically comparing apples to oranges. Questing has more new stuff to hear, but it's not designed to be replayed over and over. It's one and done. So the dungeons, trials, world bosses, etc tend to take up way more gameplay hours than the story.

Completely biased opinion mate. But I understand your line of thinking. Dungeons, arenas and trials are my main activities, I spend over 12 hours per week doing them (most of it in vet dlc hm trials these days). I don't care for overland quests or delves one bit. (I can't enjoy braindead easy content). I did questing a long time ago, even then it was done once and then forget.

But there are players who spent so much time doing overland exploration and questing and enjoying it, doing quests again and again with different characters with different themes. Role-playing the quests gives them a ton of replayability value. Some of these players wouldn't touch veteran content with a 10-foot pole. At most they would play a normal dungeon once to see what's in there, then never bother again.

ZoS has the data about which part of the playerbase is bigger so they focus more on them when releasing content.

spartaxoxo

LashanW wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

You just mentioned the types of content. Where's the percentages?

Take Blackwood chapter for example. [Delves + Public Dungeons + Overland Quests] are a lot more content than the few [world bosses + world events + one trial] in that chapter.

In terms of gameplay hours, dungeons and trials provide way more content due to replayability. In terms of the number of new things to look at, questing provides more. So it's meaningless to provide percentages, because you're basically comparing apples to oranges. Questing has more new stuff to hear, but it's not designed to be replayed over and over. It's one and done. So the dungeons, trials, world bosses, etc tend to take up way more gameplay hours than the story.

Completely biased opinion mate. But I understand your line of thinking. Dungeons, arenas and trials are my main activities, I spend over 12 hours per week doing them (most of it in vet dlc hm trials these days). I don't care for overland quests or delves one bit. (I can't enjoy braindead easy content). I did questing a long time ago, even then it was done once and then forget.

But there are players who spent so much time doing overland exploration and questing and enjoying it, doing quests again and again with different characters with different themes. Role-playing the quests gives them a ton of replayability value. Some of these players wouldn't touch veteran content with a 10-foot pole. At most they would play a normal dungeon once to see what's in there, then never bother again.

ZoS has the data about which part of the playerbase is bigger so they focus more on them when releasing content.

Well I was moreso speaking on how they are designed rather than individual players because that makes providing percentages even more impossible. The stuff like bosses for example, ZOS gives you an achievement for killing them for 30 days. They also put in the grindy loot into those systems. So clearly they are designing them more for replayability and time consuming than the quests. Which you have to create a new character to do. Whether or not any individual players actually uses it that way is a different story. They try to have content for a variety of types.

SilverBride

Vhozek wrote: »

Which is weird cause.. is the game even growing? What new players? Most PC players play their games on Steam and Steam numbers are stagnant. If you tell me they don't and instead download the launcher, then you mean veteran MMO players are these so called "new" players. They are not new. They can handle themselves just fine. New players aren't stopping themselves to download the launcher instead. This is my first MMO and I play through Steam, posting on here very often about the game's difficulty being too easy.

I don't use Steam for anything, and not sure why anyone would when you can just install the game to your PC without an unnecessary extra step.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Well expansions have to (and do, in this and other games) have some content for newer players since a lot of new players come in specifically to play the dlc.

Playing MMO games for more than 20 years, I have to disagree. In other MMO games, the content of expansions is usually locked behind a level gate in form of something like (current max level + 10). New players usually can not even go there without being instantly killed by the first mob they bump into. ESO has taken a different route with level scaling but that does not change the fundamental idea of expansions providing new content for veteran players.
Also, I highly doubt that new players come in to specifically play a DLC. New players come in because they have heard of Elder Scrolls and may have played the single player games. They don't know what Blackwood is and they can not connect anything to Elsweyr or Summerset. They might have seen the trailers and teasers, but even if that has an influence on their decision to buy the game, they willl have to start with the base game instead of playing the DLC right away. A DLC without context is just meaningless.

I have also played MMO games for a couple of decades now. In fact, I wrote guides for one of them and moderated their website. Ic can't remember playing one that didn't have some kind of content for new players with the new expansion. They also often have level boosting events and such to get around exactly that in cases of level gated content. ESO is significantly more lenient than others in terms of allowing you to go zone to zone, but new content to attract new players is extremely common. And I can't think of any that don't try to attract new players with their expansions.

Expansions are important to MMOs for drawing in new players. ESO is more aggressive about it, but ALL mmos use them to draw in new players.

For example if you go to WoW's shop, you can see a section for new players and they recommend the free trial and the newest expansion. They also offer a character boost so you can instantly use it, or at least that's how it was advertised.

I feel like you're conflating the way MMOs worked in the early days with the way modern MMOs work now, because that's some seriously outdated way of doing things.

Great points as it is good that Zenimax adds content with each zone-based DLC that new players can do right off the bat.

NupidStoob

Vhozek wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

From a gameplay and storytelling standpoint the new DLC zones are specifically catering to new players.

Which is weird cause.. is the game even growing? What new players? Most PC players play their games on Steam and Steam numbers are stagnant. If you tell me they don't and instead download the launcher, then you mean veteran MMO players are these so called "new" players. They are not new. They can handle themselves just fine. New players aren't stopping themselves to download the launcher instead. This is my first MMO and I play through Steam, posting on here very often about the game's difficulty being too easy.

Idk where you get the numbers from that most people play this through steam. In fact when we had login issues for steam (happened multiple times in the past) players it was always just a very tiny minority on my discords while the majority wasn't affected. Of course that is anecdotal, but still. I also don't know where the idea comes from that you have to be a veteran MMO player to not get it through steam. There are many more platforms to buy games from than just steam.

SilverBride

NupidStoob wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Most PC players play their games on Steam..

Idk where you get the numbers from that most people play this through steam.

I was curious about this too so I started a poll asking how many PC players play ESO through Steam. More do than I thought but they are the minority.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/584393/pc-players-only-do-you-play-eso-through-steam

Brrrofski

spartaxoxo wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

I think you've gotten better over time, and thus content has become easier for you regardless if it has more mechanics or not. The game itself though is harder now than it was before. It has more mechanics, and more demand we follow those mechanics.

New players have a load of those so es to go through first, get better and then go to the so called "hard" content. Although I have no idea what was hard about Blackwood to be honest...

newtinmpls

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I think players forget how they struggled with their first toon in overland.

ESO was my first ever MMO, and I can recall back in the dawn of time when there was no option to "hide" helmet and MOST of my characters wore heavy armor because if you didn't you died, and most of my character (once they got to bar swap) had a resto staff on the back bar - because if you didn't you died.

I still recall NEEDING to make new crafted armor every 4-5 levels, and it was a big deal to take off my helm in town, because I wanted to see my Orsimer's lovely fierce face - but if I forgot to put it back on going out into the wilds - I would get killed a lot faster.

neferpitou73

They've been trying to dumb down the mechanics to attract more casual players (see their attempt at eliminating ani cancelling, allowing a great degree of hybridization in mag and stam etc.) earning them the ire of many an old player. I fail to see how they've been appealing to older players

spartaxoxo

neferpitou73 wrote: »

They've been trying to dumb down the mechanics to attract more casual players (see their attempt at eliminating ani cancelling, allowing a great degree of hybridization in mag and stam etc.) earning them the ire of many an old player. I fail to see how they've been appealing to older players

They did that to lower the gap between mid tier players (many of whom are older) and elite players, nothing to do with new players. They wanted people to be able to play like elites.

Soulshine

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Yeah but that doesn't detract from my point that the new player experience has not changed to back then difficulty wise. Some things were easy, others were challenging and required a group. Fights now are more engaging, but that's not a bad thing.

It has though because the way the things they could do on their own is lesser. People were soloing same level dolmens for example as early as 2014, I just posted evidence of that.

The fights are more engaging because they are harder. I don't think it's a bad thing.

This is getting a little bit ridiculous?

I mean, context to your "evidence" is in serious absence here. If you had been playing in 2014 you would realize something about the two players doing this. Hint: both are classes ZoS has since nerfed repeatedly into oblivion compared to back then.

More context: in early launch people used to complain on the forums how this or that Dolmen or boss was too hard. "Doshia is impossible to beat!" endless threads. So much and for so long that ZoS went and nerfed her. Same when Craglorn launched. People whinging in zone chat about it all the time. I will not even get started on clearing vMA as a Veteran ranked player in 2015 before oodles of later CPs, mythics, etc. Then battle leveling came in 2016... yeah that was charming. By 2018, ESO was already a massively watered down version of the early game, vis-à-vis established CPs, umpteen class changes/nerfs, and content changes/nerfs, battle spirit, new characters rolled with max CPs applied, etc.

As for the mechanics being "more sophisticated" now, this is also just categorically false I'm sorry. They are still operating on a very tired formula of simply added HPs to the bosses for HM, plus a one-shot cascade or two at some point of the fight, an enrage timer here there. A bit more footwork to be mindful of. Pretty much it.

If you are honestly finding DLC content too difficult and "elite," I think that says more about your rate of progress or lack of it than it does the state of the game tbh. Not a saying that is bad either, just saying you might do well to consider that what you view as more difficult is merely a reflection of missing experience.

newtinmpls

Soulshine wrote: »

More context: in early launch people used to complain on the forums how this or that Dolmen or boss was too hard. "Doshia is impossible to beat!" endless threads. <snip> Same when Craglorn launched. <snip> By 2018, ESO was already a massively watered down version of the early game, vis-à-vis established CPs, umpteen class changes/nerfs, and content changes/nerfs, battle spirit, new characters rolled with max CPs applied, etc.

I suspect that this was possibly partly due to the massive influx of gamers (like me) who were not here for "an MMO" or even "an MMORPG" but looking for "TES with friends".

Soulshine wrote: »

As for the mechanics being "more sophisticated" now

There was a stage in the "DLC dungeons" where in order to "make things harder" the Dev's just went crazy with making everyone a bullet sponge giving them more health.

The more recent iterations have had more in the way of mechanics (grapple hook, points where the various bosses are immune to things, secret bosses), so that's improving a bit in terms of making it "more interesting" and not just a DPS gate.

Amottica

NupidStoob wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

From a gameplay and storytelling standpoint the new DLC zones are specifically catering to new players.

Which is weird cause.. is the game even growing? What new players? Most PC players play their games on Steam and Steam numbers are stagnant. If you tell me they don't and instead download the launcher, then you mean veteran MMO players are these so called "new" players. They are not new. They can handle themselves just fine. New players aren't stopping themselves to download the launcher instead. This is my first MMO and I play through Steam, posting on here very often about the game's difficulty being too easy.

Idk where you get the numbers from that most people play this through steam. In fact when we had login issues for steam (happened multiple times in the past) players it was always just a very tiny minority on my discords while the majority wasn't affected. Of course that is anecdotal, but still. I also don't know where the idea comes from that you have to be a veteran MMO player to not get it through steam. There are many more platforms to buy games from than just steam.

@NupidStoob Where do you get your numbers that most ESO PC players play the game through Steam. It is unlikely that most players bought their ESO game through steam or linked it afterward. Heck, the players that have been around the longest could not purchase this game through steam. Heck, the game would have been virtually empty those times that Steam players could not log in and that was not the case.

Shantu

ZOS is going to create content that makes them money. Who cares. If it's not fun, do something else.

NupidStoob

Amottica wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Vhozek wrote: »

Malthorne wrote: »

From a gameplay and storytelling standpoint the new DLC zones are specifically catering to new players.

Which is weird cause.. is the game even growing? What new players? Most PC players play their games on Steam and Steam numbers are stagnant. If you tell me they don't and instead download the launcher, then you mean veteran MMO players are these so called "new" players. They are not new. They can handle themselves just fine. New players aren't stopping themselves to download the launcher instead. This is my first MMO and I play through Steam, posting on here very often about the game's difficulty being too easy.

Idk where you get the numbers from that most people play this through steam. In fact when we had login issues for steam (happened multiple times in the past) players it was always just a very tiny minority on my discords while the majority wasn't affected. Of course that is anecdotal, but still. I also don't know where the idea comes from that you have to be a veteran MMO player to not get it through steam. There are many more platforms to buy games from than just steam.

@NupidStoob Where do you get your numbers that most ESO PC players play the game through Steam. It is unlikely that most players bought their ESO game through steam or linked it afterward. Heck, the players that have been around the longest could not purchase this game through steam. Heck, the game would have been virtually empty those times that Steam players could not log in and that was not the case.

I don't get numbers anywhere nor did I say it was the case. You are the one claiming that PC players play ESO mostly through Steam. I don't know where most people play from and neither do you which is simply what I pointed out. There is also no correlation how casual someone is and whether or not they bought the game on steam.

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO

Cant new players start in the zones the "older elite players" started in and work there way up through the expansions rather than heading straight to the latest, if some think "hardest" zones?

Darkstorne

@spartaxoxo Interesting opinion. Especially when the most recent Chapter, barely a few months old, added a brand new companion system as its key feature specifically aimed at making the game easier to get into for new players.

But I do completely understand why you think new players need additional aid. I also see new players really struggling with the game, not understanding how combat works or the inventory system, dying in fights against regular mobs and struggling to progress past story boss battles. Understanding LA weaving, and which abilities to slot, and to stack mag or stam stats and never pick health stats at level up, etc is all well and good for most of us. But for new players this game can be a really archaic beast to understand. I do think the companion system is specifically aimed at helping these players though.

"I should try to cancel my light attack into a skill before my light attack has even visually hit an enemy? And then I should cancel that ability into a block?" Yes, welcome to ESO. A game where programming mistakes are so hard-coded they are now "features".

Biro123

Some interesting views here.

My view is that expansions/DLC's etc should specifically cater for the experienced player, not the new player.

Yes, Fungal Grotto exists - as does the original overland story zones/quests/delves etc. This is plenty of content for the new player to get to grips with - and imho, new characters should still start at the original start-zones (not the DLC zones) - as it just confuses the storylines otherwise. In fact, quest starters for the new zones shouldn't even be available unless the main storyline has been completed at least once on the account - otherwise they could inadvertently be taken to a DLC zone just by questing and end up completely outside of the main story arc. For new-player content, Zos could improve the new-player experience(learning curve) within those original zones - I mean what other new content would a new player want (new classes/skill-lines aside)?

Now for the experienced player - who has done all the original content - they want and need new stuff. New zones, new dungeons, new loot etc.

I'm actually of the view that the game would be better for new players if they started where it makes sense - the beginning. And it would be better for experienced players if the new content was catering for them - it does in a way in terms of tougher WB's/Dungeons etc. But why not tougher overland too - doable if new players don't start there, surely?

Imho the current approach fails both (perhaps unless experienced and dungeons/trials are your thing).

drunkendx

*checks ESO Steam discussions*

Several threads [snip] how game is too easy.

Yes, DLC content is harder than base game content.

But it's not that much harder...

[edited for baiting]

spartaxoxo

drunkendx wrote: »

*checks ESO Steam discussions*

Several threads [snip] how game is too easy.

Yes, DLC content is harder than base game content.

But it's not that much harder...

[snip]

I don't even use steam, I am on PS4.

So show me these so-called steam discussions. I will wait.

Edit:

In fact here's my latest 11 threads...



[edited for baiting]

Red_Feather

This is some kind of reverse psychology thing? Because everyone and their aunt says eso is too easy. I've seen reviews of eso pointing out that content is just a casual checklist. I once saw that asmongold guy streaming this game and saying it. It's probably considered a universal truth by now.

spartaxoxo

Red_Feather wrote: »

This is some kind of reverse psychology thing? Because everyone and then aunt says eso is too casual to be taken seriously. I've seen reviews of it. I once saw that asmongold guy streaming this game and saying it. It's probably considered a universal truth by now that eso is easy mode.

Nope. I think some people in the elite tier view everything at the beneath as casual, or some people in mid-tier players who have played the game a while think the game isn't already catering to them heavily. When frankly, they get the majority of the content. It's not the elites who get barely any content, and it's not the new guy. Mid-tiers are not in the same boat as the elites. They are getting mostly everything.

The people who play super casually or are new, aren't the ones being catered to for the most part. Neither is the elite players. Moreso average players. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. But I do think it's been catering to them for a long time, at least past 3 years.

SilverBride

Red_Feather wrote: »

This is some kind of reverse psychology thing? Because everyone and their aunt says eso is too easy.

I've never said that and I never will. Overland is exactly how it should be so all players of all skill levels and all playstyles can succeed at questing and the story. If a hard core end game streamer finds it too easy that is just their opinion and not proven fact. Wolves and bears and cats and bugs should not be a huge challenge for most players. I find it unreasonable to expect overland to be anything other than what it is.

Iccotak

Those “Overland Quest“ make up the majority of those zones and therefore the majority of playable content, especially solo content.

Anything remotely harder is designed for groups and is the minority of the content. It’s practically put into a separate corner.

The majority of the Story content - which is one of the primary appeals of the elder scrolls franchise - is almost entirely aimed at beginner/casual players and has no difficulty options.

The zones by the way are also very easy and have next to zero risk when it comes to exploration.

The only places in Overland that are “dangerous“ are the world bosses in documents which are very isolated.

Meaning that there’s very little chance of randomly running into something that could be potentially dangerous.

No dangerous random NPCs, or animals.
With or Without CP and Good gear - The majority of the zone is balanced around beginner players who have mismatched gear - in other words you’re playing on novice all the time

——————————————————
Take dragons as an example;
in Skyrim they randomly spawn which made adventures riskier (depending on the difficulty you’re set at) but in the Elsweyr expansion, dragons were just isolated events that flew from point A to point B.

They weren’t dynamic, they weren’t all that exciting. They were very static, isolated, and for the most part it was just a group of 12+ players burning through its health bar.

Btw Dragons, the dolmens were the only thing likely to kill you if you weren’t paying attention (besides WBs)

Everything else on that map was a joke if you have the minimum understanding of the gameplay mechanics.
——————————————————

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

Those “Overland Quest“ make up the majority of those zones and therefore the majority of playable content, especially solo content

Debatable. They make up the majority of new places to visit, no doubt. But by their very design they aren't very replayable. People do for the roleplay or to give skill points to their alts. But there design is one and done. The same is not true for the repeatables.

You are expected to get way more gameplay hours out of bosses, world events, dungeons, trials, etc.

So it's entirely how you view it.

New things to see vs total hours spent (from a design perspective, individual experience may vary).