New Content has primarily catered to existing players for at least the past 3 years

spartaxoxo

And the game has been getting harder and harder.

Let's look at the content added, shall we?

For New Players
Delves
Public Dungeons
Overland Quests

For Mid Tier players
World Bosses
World Events
Normal Dungeons
Normal Trials
Housing
Vet dungeons (higher end of mid-tier)


For Elite players
Vet Dungeon HM and achievements (lower end of elite, arguably mid-tier) <---[I am here, for the sake of transparency]
Vet Trials <---[I could probably do this if I found the right group, for the sake of transparency. I have beat vet DLC trial bosses before, but haven't cleared an entire vet dlc trial. The couple of times I tried the groups fell apart due to in-fighting or lack of ability to coordinate schedules, for the sake of full disclosure]

For the top 1%
Vet Trial Achievements

For PVP players
.....


Where does this idea that the game caters most of it's new content to new players come from? They barely have anything. The vast majority of this game caters to established players of moderate skill. Housing is extremely expensive and requires millions. New players don't have that kind of money, regardless if it's easy to decorate. New players often don't have friends or guild mates either, so they basically get by doing the story quests and grinding out early achievements like getting all the fragments from a public dungeon for a neat new cosmetic, or doing their delve dailies to get that cool outfit. Perhaps this was the case when the game first launched, and everyone was new. But why are we still holding Fungal Grotto against the new player content 7 years later? This game hasn't functioned that way in years. That they have so much content is purely a matter of this game being old. The overall trajectory of this game is to cater more and more to established players of moderate skill. They shifted World Bosses to established players since like Craglorn. World Events during Summerset. New players and low skill players have a pretty tough time against the named bosses from geysers.

I often see mid tier players often claim they aren't getting enough of the new content, and that the majority of it is catering to new players. But that is absolutely not the case. They are getting the majority of it. New players actually don't have much in the way of re-playable content. The story quests are only good as a tutorial, and only able to be done once. This game is actually really daunting to new players. I often see them asking for tips on how to play it, begging for coins because they can't even afford a little horse, etc. The majority of them just want to get to mid-game. They view the elite content as too daunting and see that the majority of content is catered towards mid-tiered players and would actually be fun if they can get their gear sorted, their character levelled, and their coin up enough to participate in those activities meaningfully. This means not just being carried by an established character while they die over and over to AOE.

This post isn't to disparage the idea there shouldn't be optional ways to have a greater challenge in overland. I'd be up for something like a self-debuff that made things truly feel optional to players, and would probably use it myself. I am also currently a mid-tier player that doesn't feel like doing the massive time commitment it takes to do elite content, but also finds a lot of the mid-tier stuff pretty easy. I think the mid-tier players that can do vet dungeons are the main ones with this complaint because normal dungeons are so easy it can be really easy to forget how difficult they are for new players.

But I just wanted to combat this idea most of the content being added is for newbies. It's not! A new player has a hard time with a lot of the content in this game. It actually can be quite daunting!

grannas211

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Hurbster

New players get a horse at level 10 through the level-up rewards.

The last couple of expansions also have quests designed to introduce the Guild Finder specifically.

Most players will naturally help people asking in chat for advice. Those that don't help, quite frankly are not worth bothering with.

spartaxoxo

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

I think you've gotten better over time, and thus content has become easier for you regardless if it has more mechanics or not. The game itself though is harder now than it was before. It has more mechanics, and more demand we follow those mechanics.

kargen27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

I think you've gotten better over time, and thus content has become easier for you regardless if it has more mechanics or not. The game itself though is harder now than it was before. It has more mechanics, and more demand we follow those mechanics.

The game isn't harder now than it was before. All those easy zones, delves and dungeons are still there. The difficulty level is more tiered than it used to be. ZoS is smart to not make all content easy for new players. There needs to be some form of progression.
They could do better at explaining where a new player might want to start.

spartaxoxo

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

I think you've gotten better over time, and thus content has become easier for you regardless if it has more mechanics or not. The game itself though is harder now than it was before. It has more mechanics, and more demand we follow those mechanics.

The game isn't harder now than it was before. All those easy zones, delves and dungeons are still there. The difficulty level is more tiered than it used to be. ZoS is smart to not make all content easy for new players. There needs to be some form of progression.
They could do better at explaining where a new player might want to start.

Old content being still there in no way counters my argument, because I was saying the new content added is harder now than it was before. And therefore the game has trended harder over time. That the design is purposefully harder than it was before. Therefore, you cannot use "Fungal Grotto still exists," to counter that. You'd have to prove that overall trying to make the new content easier than the old content.

Sylvermynx

I don't find the newest content harder than the older overland. Some things I don't do - dungeons, trials, pvp, anything requiring a group - so I have no idea about that. But as far as overland - it's pretty much the same as it's always been (I started playing in June 2018).

It seems to me that Blackwood overland is on par with the base game overland. Works for me. Not sure what your agenda is. I don't want overland ramped up in difficulty - but I'm not trying to accuse the devs of making overland harder all of a sudden either.

spartaxoxo

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I don't find the newest content harder than the older overland. Some things I don't do - dungeons, trials, pvp, anything requiring a group - so I have no idea about that. But as far as overland - it's pretty much the same as it's always been (I started playing in June 2018).

It seems to me that Blackwood overland is on par with the base game overland. Works for me. Not sure what your agenda is. I don't want overland ramped up in difficulty - but I'm not trying to accuse the devs of making overland harder all of a sudden either.

I didn't accuse the devs of making Overland harder all of a sudden? I'm not sure what you're talking about, most of the Overland stuff was listed as "for new players," with the exception of world bosses and world events. And if you don't think dark anchors are the easiest of the world events, I don't know what to tell ya. I don't find a single world boss hard in base game, I still find Kung Fu Kitty hard.

kargen27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

I think you've gotten better over time, and thus content has become easier for you regardless if it has more mechanics or not. The game itself though is harder now than it was before. It has more mechanics, and more demand we follow those mechanics.

The game isn't harder now than it was before. All those easy zones, delves and dungeons are still there. The difficulty level is more tiered than it used to be. ZoS is smart to not make all content easy for new players. There needs to be some form of progression.
They could do better at explaining where a new player might want to start.

Old content being still there in no way counters my argument, because I was saying the new content added is harder now than it was before. And therefore the game has trended harder over time. That the design is purposefully harder than it was before. Therefore, you cannot use "Fungal Grotto still exists," to counter that. You'd have to prove that overall trying to make the new content easier than the old content.

Yes it does counter your statement that I replied to. You said "The game itself though is harder now than it was before". It is not harder than it was before. New content might be harder than old content but making new content same level as old content would make the game stale.

WrathOfInnos

All the content is new to new players. Additional new content catered to them would just make the early game more jumbled and confusing. DLC’s should (and do) cater to retaining long term players that have done existing content and are getting bored.

spartaxoxo

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

You think the dragons are easier than dark anchors for example?
You think that the Blackwood Public Dungeon is as easy as Bad Man's Hollows?
You think that the Cauldron is as easy as Imperial City Sewers?
Do you think that Rockgrove is as easy as Craglorn trials?
Vateshran Hollows has way more mechanics than Maelstrom Arena.

I think you've gotten better over time, and thus content has become easier for you regardless if it has more mechanics or not. The game itself though is harder now than it was before. It has more mechanics, and more demand we follow those mechanics.

The game isn't harder now than it was before. All those easy zones, delves and dungeons are still there. The difficulty level is more tiered than it used to be. ZoS is smart to not make all content easy for new players. There needs to be some form of progression.
They could do better at explaining where a new player might want to start.

Old content being still there in no way counters my argument, because I was saying the new content added is harder now than it was before. And therefore the game has trended harder over time. That the design is purposefully harder than it was before. Therefore, you cannot use "Fungal Grotto still exists," to counter that. You'd have to prove that overall trying to make the new content easier than the old content.

Yes it does counter your statement that I replied to. You said "The game itself though is harder now than it was before". It is not harder than it was before. New content might be harder than old content but making new content same level as old content would make the game stale.

You can't cherry pick it out of context to change the meaning of the statement into an argument that would be countered by it. The person said they found the opposite was true, that newer content is increasingly easier than before as the game caters more and more to casuals. I said newer content was harder, and that it might be increasingly easier for them because they are more talented than they used to be.

"Newer content is harder than older content," is not countered by "old content still exists."

What this thread is about is whether or not DLC content is harder than base game content.

Vevvev

The only thing that has gotten harder in overland is some of the world bosses, but typically they have a mechanic that once learned eases the difficulty by a very large margin. If we compare last year to this year Blackwood's portals are far, FAR easier than a Harrowstorm in comparison. And Harrowstorms have a progressively harder difficulty curve depending on.... you guessed it! Mechanics. Follow the mechanics and the difficulty goes down heavily.

Of course ZOS did fix the bug with the Harrowstorm ghosts so stunning them no longer halts them permanently, but it does buy you time to kill them in a timely manner.

Amottica

I think the OP has listed the new content just fine and that list demonstrates that there is added content for all difficulty levels from beginner to the more advanced players. That is how it should be.

The questing and zone delves are at a difficulty for that works well so everyone is able to complete them and enjoy the story. The remaining content is at varying difficulties to meet the needs of those that want more of a challenge. I would suggest this is sheer genius but the reality is Zenimax is merely copying the model that has been very successful in other MMORPGs.

spartaxoxo

Vevvev wrote: »

The only thing that has gotten harder in overland is some of the world bosses, but typically they have a mechanic that once learned eases the difficulty by a very large margin. If we compare last year to this year Blackwood's portals are far, FAR easier than a Harrowstorm in comparison. And Harrowstorms have a progressively harder difficulty curve depending on.... you guessed it! Mechanics. Follow the mechanics and the difficulty goes down heavily.

Of course ZOS did fix the bug with the Harrowstorm ghosts so stunning them no longer halts them permanently, but it does buy you time to kill them in a timely manner.

This is true! Blackwood's portals are much easier than Harrowstorms before them. I wonder if this is the start of a new trend, or just a digression from their overall trend of having harder content. I personally find it to be the case that in terms of difficulty, Dragons and Harrowstorms (which I find to be on par with one another) are significantly harder than geysers. But geysers themselves are harder than dark anchors before them.

Grandchamp1989

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Interesting thread.

I'm also of the opinion that the game has become increasingly casual.

spartaxoxo

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Interesting thread.

I'm mostly in the camp with this guy I quoted..

Casual play:
- The Story which includes
* Main Story
* Zone Stories
* All the side quests
- Delves
- Public Dungeons
- Normal Dungeons
- Dolmens and world bosses (Group effort in overland - you walk by, 7 people are smacking a WB and you join in)

Also most of the gold is farmed in overland from ressource farming, fragments, overland sets and furnishing materials including furnishing plans

The average player will usually play in:
- Vet dungeons
- Normal Trials
- PvP

Above average will probably play in:
- HM Dungeons
- Vet Trials
- PvP

High end players will probably put their sights on:
-Trials HM (including trifecta)
-PvP

Most of the content suited to your progression level is found at the casual level. On top of that the dungeons bosses are constantly getting nerfed, so the "average level" is getting easier.

I think ESO is an extremely casual game that put a lot of effort into new players maybe, sometimes at the expense of some player retention, but that's just my take.

To be honest I think stretching dividing zone stories and side stories is bit a sus, trying to make it seem more like more content than it is. Those quests altogether represent a few hours of non-repeatable gameplay, and I think majority of most people's time is spent doing repeatable content. I also don't think there'd be a lot of people who want to exclude DLC from the random normal dungeons if they didn't present a significant jump in difficulty from base game ones that they find themselves continuously frustrated by, either because they have a harder time with them, their typical teammates have a harder time with them, or both. Also from my pug experience, I'm more likely to have to carry a team on a vet base game dungeon than a normal DLC. Like for example, I just had a group abandon normal scalecaller peak the other day. I can't remember the last time that happened on a vet base game. So I think they represent a playerbase that is better than the casual level. If I had to define it personally....

I also often see casual players complain about the lack of help at world bosses and world events, and cry out in zone chat for more people to help them with them. So I think that they are content more aimed at "average players," than casuals, in that list. I haven't see a lot of casuals take on a dragon unless there's a significant group of average players there first, and that's not really content being designed with them in mind. It's them being presented with the opportunity to join content designed for "average" players.


Or as I call them on my list, mid-tier.

radiostar

New players should be delivered into their faction starter island(s), then into their opposing factions starter islands, then into their faction beginner, medium, expert lands; and their opposing factions beginner, medium, expert lands. You can do that now if you know the area names. They need to rethread the early quests.

Grandchamp1989

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Interesting thread.

I'm mostly in the camp with this guy I quoted..

Casual play:
- The Story which includes
* Main Story
* Zone Stories
* All the side quests
- Delves
- Public Dungeons
- Normal Dungeons
- Dolmens and world bosses (Group effort in overland - you walk by, 7 people are smacking a WB and you join in)

Also most of the gold is farmed in overland from ressource farming, fragments, overland sets and furnishing materials including furnishing plans

The average player will usually play in:
- Vet dungeons
- Normal Trials
- PvP

Above average will probably play in:
- HM Dungeons
- Vet Trials
- PvP

High end players will probably put their sights on:
-Trials HM (including trifecta)
-PvP

Most of the content suited to your progression level is found at the casual level. On top of that the dungeons bosses are constantly getting nerfed, so the "average level" is getting easier.

I think ESO is an extremely casual game that put a lot of effort into new players maybe, sometimes at the expense of some player retention, but that's just my take.

To be honest I think stretching dividing zone stories and side stories is bit a sus, trying to make it seem more like more content than it is. Those quests altogether represent a few hours of non-repeatable gameplay, and I think majority of most people's time is spent doing repeatable content. I also don't think there'd be a lot of people who want to exclude DLC from the random normal dungeons if they didn't present a significant jump in difficulty from base game ones that they find themselves continuously frustrated by, either because they have a harder time with them, their typical teammates have a harder time with them, or both. Also from my pug experience, I'm more likely to have to carry a team on a vet base game dungeon than a normal DLC. Like for example, I just had a group abandon normal scalecaller peak the other day. I can't remember the last time that happened on a vet base game. So I think they represent a playerbase that is better than the casual level. If I had to define it personally....

I also often see casual players complain about the lack of help at world bosses and world events, and cry out in zone chat for more people to help them with them. So I think that they are content more aimed at "average players," than casuals, in that list. I haven't see a lot of casuals take on a dragon unless there's a significant group of average players there first, and that's not really content being designed with them in mind. It's them being presented with the opportunity to join content designed for "average" players.


Or as I call them on my list, mid-tier.

DLC dolmens (dragons, Geysers etc) and World Bosses are designed behind groups of players in overland zerging down a larger foe. A lvl 10 with a bow is not really at any great disadvantage when there's a group of players taking it down which is what is intended.

If we expect players to solo world bosses, sure the difficulty is much harder - but that would be foolish. That's not their intended use - they're designed as a group event where people join in a big fight to take down a boss. Everyone can join in on such a fight regardless of experience. I began around the time of Elsweyr and I was "helping" smacking dragons with my amazing lvl 10 maple restoration staff and I had a blast doing it.

Amottica

radiostar wrote: »

New players should be delivered into their faction starter island(s), then into their opposing factions starter islands, then into their faction beginner, medium, expert lands; and their opposing factions beginner, medium, expert lands. You can do that now if you know the area names. They need to rethread the early quests.

This opinion has merit. However, many players like myself are brought in by purchasing the chapters. As such it does make a bit of business sense to drop new players into the shiny new chapter they just purchased when they bought the game.

Even though I did find my way to my alliance questline I do not feel I lost out on anything.

SilverBride

I agree with @spartaxoxo 100%. I had very little trouble soloing public dungeons in all the zones on all of my characters, but the ones in Blackwood were a struggle. I had to ask a friend to come help me the first time I tried one. They were definitely more difficult and had more mechanics.

Emmagoldman

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

I agree here. The amount of free awards, events that have been added, more and more dungeons ect

As for the op, do new players need repayable content? I'd argue not really. I joined during dark brotherhood, and I remember feeling there there was so much content. Couldn't imagine what it would be like now

spartaxoxo

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Interesting thread.

I'm mostly in the camp with this guy I quoted..

Casual play:
- The Story which includes
* Main Story
* Zone Stories
* All the side quests
- Delves
- Public Dungeons
- Normal Dungeons
- Dolmens and world bosses (Group effort in overland - you walk by, 7 people are smacking a WB and you join in)

Also most of the gold is farmed in overland from ressource farming, fragments, overland sets and furnishing materials including furnishing plans

The average player will usually play in:
- Vet dungeons
- Normal Trials
- PvP

Above average will probably play in:
- HM Dungeons
- Vet Trials
- PvP

High end players will probably put their sights on:
-Trials HM (including trifecta)
-PvP

Most of the content suited to your progression level is found at the casual level. On top of that the dungeons bosses are constantly getting nerfed, so the "average level" is getting easier.

I think ESO is an extremely casual game that put a lot of effort into new players maybe, sometimes at the expense of some player retention, but that's just my take.

To be honest I think stretching dividing zone stories and side stories is bit a sus, trying to make it seem more like more content than it is. Those quests altogether represent a few hours of non-repeatable gameplay, and I think majority of most people's time is spent doing repeatable content. I also don't think there'd be a lot of people who want to exclude DLC from the random normal dungeons if they didn't present a significant jump in difficulty from base game ones that they find themselves continuously frustrated by, either because they have a harder time with them, their typical teammates have a harder time with them, or both. Also from my pug experience, I'm more likely to have to carry a team on a vet base game dungeon than a normal DLC. Like for example, I just had a group abandon normal scalecaller peak the other day. I can't remember the last time that happened on a vet base game. So I think they represent a playerbase that is better than the casual level. If I had to define it personally....

I also often see casual players complain about the lack of help at world bosses and world events, and cry out in zone chat for more people to help them with them. So I think that they are content more aimed at "average players," than casuals, in that list. I haven't see a lot of casuals take on a dragon unless there's a significant group of average players there first, and that's not really content being designed with them in mind. It's them being presented with the opportunity to join content designed for "average" players.


Or as I call them on my list, mid-tier.

DLC dolmens (dragons, Geysers etc) and World Bosses are designed behind groups of players in overland zerging down a larger foe. A lvl 10 with a bow is not really at any great disadvantage when there's a group of players taking it down which is what is intended.

If we expect players to solo world bosses, sure the difficulty is much harder - but that would be foolish. That's not their intended use - they're designed as a group event where people join in a big fight to take down a boss. Everyone can join in on such a fight regardless of experience. I began around the time of Elsweyr and I was "helping" smacking dragons with my amazing lvl 10 maple restoration staff and I had a blast doing it.

Sure, but look at dark anchors for example. Or to a lesser extent, geysers. Those are also designed for groups, but the difficulty level is set for a small band of causal/new players moreso than ones of average skill. That's why it's so mindless to kill them alone for players of average skill, even the bosses. Dragons and Harrowstorms have their difficulty set a small group of average skilled players, and are basically impossible for even like newbies/casuals. Like I don't think 4 level 10s could beat a dragon. They need players of average skill to come help, and it's a popular request for those of casual skill to ask those of average skill players to come help.

I think a lot of people who are better than this level have trouble seeing the skill gap between the casual crowd who largely skips group content or only does base game stuff, and ones that are more average skill level. It's because it's not as big of a jump as say people who regularly do vet dungeons and ones who regularly do vet DLC trials.

But I think there is definitely a skill jump.

Sheezabeast

Are you kidding me? Did you play the Blackwood main story? One of the main story puzzles were these insulting ward cube things that you literally just had to rotate once on queue and it was just like.....so dumbed down, you expected Dora the Explorer to pop out and congratulate you for knowing your left from right and for following directions.

Amottica

.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Interesting thread.

I'm mostly in the camp with this guy I quoted..

Casual play:
- The Story which includes
* Main Story
* Zone Stories
* All the side quests
- Delves
- Public Dungeons
- Normal Dungeons
- Dolmens and world bosses (Group effort in overland - you walk by, 7 people are smacking a WB and you join in)

Also most of the gold is farmed in overland from ressource farming, fragments, overland sets and furnishing materials including furnishing plans

The average player will usually play in:
- Vet dungeons
- Normal Trials
- PvP

Above average will probably play in:
- HM Dungeons
- Vet Trials
- PvP

High end players will probably put their sights on:
-Trials HM (including trifecta)
-PvP

Most of the content suited to your progression level is found at the casual level. On top of that the dungeons bosses are constantly getting nerfed, so the "average level" is getting easier.

I think ESO is an extremely casual game that put a lot of effort into new players maybe, sometimes at the expense of some player retention, but that's just my take.

To be honest I think stretching dividing zone stories and side stories is bit a sus, trying to make it seem more like more content than it is. Those quests altogether represent a few hours of non-repeatable gameplay, and I think majority of most people's time is spent doing repeatable content. I also don't think there'd be a lot of people who want to exclude DLC from the random normal dungeons if they didn't present a significant jump in difficulty from base game ones that they find themselves continuously frustrated by, either because they have a harder time with them, their typical teammates have a harder time with them, or both. Also from my pug experience, I'm more likely to have to carry a team on a vet base game dungeon than a normal DLC. Like for example, I just had a group abandon normal scalecaller peak the other day. I can't remember the last time that happened on a vet base game. So I think they represent a playerbase that is better than the casual level. If I had to define it personally....

I also often see casual players complain about the lack of help at world bosses and world events, and cry out in zone chat for more people to help them with them. So I think that they are content more aimed at "average players," than casuals, in that list. I haven't see a lot of casuals take on a dragon unless there's a significant group of average players there first, and that's not really content being designed with them in mind. It's them being presented with the opportunity to join content designed for "average" players.


Or as I call them on my list, mid-tier.

DLC dolmens (dragons, Geysers etc) and World Bosses are designed behind groups of players in overland zerging down a larger foe. A lvl 10 with a bow is not really at any great disadvantage when there's a group of players taking it down which is what is intended.

If we expect players to solo world bosses, sure the difficulty is much harder - but that would be foolish. That's not their intended use - they're designed as a group event where people join in a big fight to take down a boss. Everyone can join in on such a fight regardless of experience. I began around the time of Elsweyr and I was "helping" smacking dragons with my amazing lvl 10 maple restoration staff and I had a blast doing it.

Sure, but look at dark anchors for example. Or to a lesser extent, geysers. Those are also designed for groups, but the difficulty level is set for a small band of causal/new players moreso than ones of average skill. That's why it's so mindless to kill them alone for players of average skill, even the bosses. Dragons and Harrowstorms have their difficulty set a small group of average skilled players, and are basically impossible for even like newbies/casuals. Like I don't think 4 level 10s could beat a dragon. They need players of average skill to come help, and it's a popular request for those of casual skill to ask those of average skill players to come help.

I think a lot of people who are better than this level have trouble seeing the skill gap between the casual crowd who largely skips group content or only does base game stuff, and ones that are more average skill level. It's because it's not as big of a jump as say people who regularly do vet dungeons and ones who regularly do vet DLC trials.

But I think there is definitely a skill jump.

I do not see how this is suggesting new content caters to existing players Using the example of level 10 characters says nothing about new players unless we are defining new players as ones who bought the game today. Even using one type of content as an example is to limiting to paint a true picture.

Your original post outlines the different difficulty levels of content added each year and shows there is content for new players joining the game to those every experienced and skilled.

kargen27

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

I actually think it’s the opposite. The game has become very casual.

Interesting thread.

I'm mostly in the camp with this guy I quoted..

Casual play:
- The Story which includes
* Main Story
* Zone Stories
* All the side quests
- Delves
- Public Dungeons
- Normal Dungeons
- Dolmens and world bosses (Group effort in overland - you walk by, 7 people are smacking a WB and you join in)

Also most of the gold is farmed in overland from ressource farming, fragments, overland sets and furnishing materials including furnishing plans

The average player will usually play in:
- Vet dungeons
- Normal Trials
- PvP

Above average will probably play in:
- HM Dungeons
- Vet Trials
- PvP

High end players will probably put their sights on:
-Trials HM (including trifecta)
-PvP

Most of the content suited to your progression level is found at the casual level. On top of that the dungeons bosses are constantly getting nerfed, so the "average level" is getting easier.

I think ESO is an extremely casual game that put a lot of effort into new players maybe, sometimes at the expense of some player retention, but that's just my take.

To be honest I think stretching dividing zone stories and side stories is bit a sus, trying to make it seem more like more content than it is. Those quests altogether represent a few hours of non-repeatable gameplay, and I think majority of most people's time is spent doing repeatable content. I also don't think there'd be a lot of people who want to exclude DLC from the random normal dungeons if they didn't present a significant jump in difficulty from base game ones that they find themselves continuously frustrated by, either because they have a harder time with them, their typical teammates have a harder time with them, or both. Also from my pug experience, I'm more likely to have to carry a team on a vet base game dungeon than a normal DLC. Like for example, I just had a group abandon normal scalecaller peak the other day. I can't remember the last time that happened on a vet base game. So I think they represent a playerbase that is better than the casual level. If I had to define it personally....

I also often see casual players complain about the lack of help at world bosses and world events, and cry out in zone chat for more people to help them with them. So I think that they are content more aimed at "average players," than casuals, in that list. I haven't see a lot of casuals take on a dragon unless there's a significant group of average players there first, and that's not really content being designed with them in mind. It's them being presented with the opportunity to join content designed for "average" players.


Or as I call them on my list, mid-tier.

DLC dolmens (dragons, Geysers etc) and World Bosses are designed behind groups of players in overland zerging down a larger foe. A lvl 10 with a bow is not really at any great disadvantage when there's a group of players taking it down which is what is intended.

If we expect players to solo world bosses, sure the difficulty is much harder - but that would be foolish. That's not their intended use - they're designed as a group event where people join in a big fight to take down a boss. Everyone can join in on such a fight regardless of experience. I began around the time of Elsweyr and I was "helping" smacking dragons with my amazing lvl 10 maple restoration staff and I had a blast doing it.

Sure, but look at dark anchors for example. Or to a lesser extent, geysers. Those are also designed for groups, but the difficulty level is set for a small band of causal/new players moreso than ones of average skill. That's why it's so mindless to kill them alone for players of average skill, even the bosses. Dragons and Harrowstorms have their difficulty set a small group of average skilled players, and are basically impossible for even like newbies/casuals. Like I don't think 4 level 10s could beat a dragon. They need players of average skill to come help, and it's a popular request for those of casual skill to ask those of average skill players to come help.

I think a lot of people who are better than this level have trouble seeing the skill gap between the casual crowd who largely skips group content or only does base game stuff, and ones that are more average skill level. It's because it's not as big of a jump as say people who regularly do vet dungeons and ones who regularly do vet DLC trials.

But I think there is definitely a skill jump.

The dolmen were designed for groups and when the game first came to be you needed to be with other players to do them. Since then the game has gotten easier and the players have gotten better. We are able to do much more damage than we could earlier not only on our skill improving but changes made to the game. So what was once group content has become solo for most players even players that have been playing for a short time.
It would make no sense to develop group content on the same level as what is now essentially solo content. I will agree with you that new group content is harder than old group content. I still disagree that the game has become harder and that was what I initially responded to. You changed the direction of the thread with your choice of words.

thorwyn

The game has evolved. It is much easier for new players to get into the game these days because of mythic items (ROTPO), imperfect versions of powerful gear (maelstrom, vateshran) and new sets as well as an army of veterans able to craft about anything for basically just the material costs. A huge chunk of the base game is designed for new players. Bringing expansions for existing players is just logical because these players are long term customers and want something new, while new players already have a whole lot of "new" to explore. I never heard of a MMO releasing a new expansion to please new players. All expansions are geared towards pushing the limits and increasing the skill and level bar and since ESO does not have levels in the classical meaning, it has to be difficulty. In addition, every expansion they nerf something that used to be "difficult" in the past.

spartaxoxo

kargen27 wrote: »

. I will agree with you that new group content is harder than old group content. I still disagree that the game has become harder and that was what I initially responded to. You changed the direction of the thread with your choice of words.

I did not change the direction of the thread.

You are mistaken. It has always been from the beginning about how new content is harder than the older content.

As for Dolmens, I first started soloing those pre-tamriel at like level 30 or so, before champion points were even a thing, not that long after console launch. I needed a group when I was newer but once I got the hang of the game, I didn't need it though it made it a lot less stressful. If they were meant ever supposed to be a challenge for mid-tier players rather than new or casuals, I personally never experienced it.

Where does this idea that the game caters most of it's new content to new players come from?

That's from the opening post.

spartaxoxo

thorwyn wrote: »

I never heard of a MMO releasing a new expansion to please new players. All expansions are geared towards pushing the limits and increasing the skill and level bar and since ESO does not have levels in the classical meaning, it has to be difficulty. In addition, every expansion they nerf something that used to be "difficult" in the past.

Well expansions have to (and do, in this and other games) have some content for newer players since a lot of new players come in specifically to play the dlc. Like a lot of people who liked Oblivion but never gave eso a shot probably came in through Blackwood.

I actually think the current balance of old vs new is pretty decent, although I thought geysers and Harrowstorms were probably a bit too difficult since I saw low population at them often when I went to do them. And I figure if people aren't doing them, then that's an issue.

But that nitpick aside, I actually think the game strikes a pretty good balance. It really feels like you can login for any level of challenge you want to if you have the skill.

I don't think it's a bad thing. But I see a lot of people who don't feel that way. And I'm like...look at all the mechanics they've added!

Soulshine

Not sure I get you since there seem to be several contradictory posts...

about midway through you focused down to: "What this thread is about is whether or not DLC content is harder than base game content."

It is not harder. It's simply different. Most of the things cited as being too difficult in overland DLC like harrowstorms or dragons, are not difficult they just require different efforts from players to succeed. No they are not dolmens; but even dolmens will kill new players when they don't know what they are doing and just stand there pew pew'ing in the AOEs.

I mean, you are supposed to progress your character, not just land in Rockgrove fully formed with 100K deeps and laugh in Bahsei's face.

So, what are we talking about here??

For another thing, if a player is new, does he/she need new content?? The entire game is "new" to them. They have oodles of options to explore compared to older players. New players also have the benefit of stepping into a game that is now much more polished, vibrant, full of things to do, places to go, easy gold to earn, etc. Using guild finder to find a guild is easiest thing in the world. There is also Discord and other online tools to help further expand social circles just like any other game. Tons of build creators, twitch streamers, YT videos, Bethesda streams, you name it, it's pretty much there.

When I started? we had Deltia....

As is, there would literally be nothing to do for old players if there weren't new trials, new DLCs, etc. in pve. Yet unfortunately, there is still very little difficult content added, compared to added overland and zone questing and events. One trial here-there and a handful of new dungeons is not exactly brimming over with content for old timers.

And please let not even get started on what there ISN'T for pvp, yikes.

spartaxoxo

Soulshine wrote: »

Not sure I get you since there seem to be several contradictory posts...

about midway through you focused down to: "What this thread is about is whether or not DLC content is harder than base game content."

What contradictory posts? I don't see any. I was clarifying to that person the thread was always about that and even quoted it where I said it in the OP.

I'm not exactly sure why people think this thread means that the total percentage of content in this game is hard on new players versus the content direction has gotten harder overall with the new content.

Don't really get it.

And yes, new players need new content. That's why they buy the expansions. Saying it's not harder just different is confusing to me.

Also, I don't have a problem with the content catering to mid tier players. I am one! I have spent countless hours coming to help actually new and casual level players, teaching them how to do world bosses or coming in after their normal dungeon failed to help them clear it. It's just something I have noticed.

I personally think they cater to mid-tier established players because it's the bulk of the playerbase.

As for PvPers...yeah, y'all get nothing. That's why I added three dots. The next chapter or dlc should have some kind of pvp something imo.

thorwyn

Well expansions have to (and do, in this and other games) have some content for newer players since a lot of new players come in specifically to play the dlc.

Playing MMO games for more than 20 years, I have to disagree. In other MMO games, the content of expansions is usually locked behind a level gate in form of something like (current max level + 10). New players usually can not even go there without being instantly killed by the first mob they bump into. ESO has taken a different route with level scaling but that does not change the fundamental idea of expansions providing new content for veteran players.
Also, I highly doubt that new players come in to specifically play a DLC. New players come in because they have heard of Elder Scrolls and may have played the single player games. They don't know what Blackwood is and they can not connect anything to Elsweyr or Summerset. They might have seen the trailers and teasers, but even if that has an influence on their decision to buy the game, they willl have to start with the base game instead of playing the DLC right away. A DLC without context is just meaningless.