Changes across the board are wrong, when classes aren't balanced properly

ESO_Nightingale

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I watched my buddy over the weekend drop down into a full group on the inner door. No help. Hit storm and wiped em in 15 seconds. I recognized the names. They weren't slouches.

I don't have any way to share his videos or I would.

Point is, they are harder to use and take A LOT of practice but they can murder with the best of them in the right hands. Now if you wanna argue that should be as easy as Stam, well that's a different conservation.

i'd like to see him try to survive any type of mild punishment.

He had 12 people attacking him...

they must have been really bad. unless he was getting heals from a healer there's no way you can live 12 semi competent people on a magden. that's just not how this patch works.

He heals himself. You can see YouTube videos of people doing the exact same thing. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible, ya know?

He wears pariah. I don't know what light set he wears. It's not a build I'm interested in. The only mag character I run is templar.

It's the old "I'm in light armor so I just get killed." It's not really true. You just have to be ready to work hard if you get surrounded or work hard to keep at range.

But honestly he fights mostly in melee anyway because he's a crazy person. Does he die? We all die. But this idea that no one can run magden in Cyro isn't really true. It's not like we're talking about magdk.

not even vampire pariah helps you to survive on magicka warden since your burst healing is too awful. i don't believe he didn't have outside help to live against 12 people unless they were really bad.

Burst healing is awful? Lol. You got multiple burst heals that one crit can fill you up. Plus you can drop hots, which he does.

Believe what you want.

i'll believe what i see and have seen for a long time. trellis, blast and shrooms don't burst heal for very much at all, budding seeds is incredibly buggy and takes too long to burst heal yourself even if you spam it, when it is then prone to bugs and lag, being forced to use resto means your blocking will suck and your best burst heal becomes blessing of restoration. trees's burst heal is alright but it's not as much as a single necro/templar/sorc burst heal even though it's on a 90 cost ultimate. you can't use annulment because it's too awful even with incredibly high max magicka.

That's just not true about arctic. On a magden with 45k healing with passives that thing is just as strong as honor the dead.

Hell, I just checked my magden defile tank. 28k mag. Trash spell damage. I critted 18k on my arctic. Base it was still 13k.

Please, just go on YouTube and search magden pvp and watch them murder people. It's not an easy build but it can rock people.

the more you funnel into health just to get a good heal, the more your damage takes a hit, that's just a fact. you cannot balance being a full hp tank with being a damage dealer unless you're fighting bad players. good luck trying to fight good players with that.

I have an example of what I can do on a 35k magden tank with no CP healing slots.

A 45k mag magden blows my heals out if the water. You can easily full heal from 1% with a crit arctic.

35k hp? that's nothing. 45k is okay healing but no damage. neither is good.

DrSlaughtr

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I watched my buddy over the weekend drop down into a full group on the inner door. No help. Hit storm and wiped em in 15 seconds. I recognized the names. They weren't slouches.

I don't have any way to share his videos or I would.

Point is, they are harder to use and take A LOT of practice but they can murder with the best of them in the right hands. Now if you wanna argue that should be as easy as Stam, well that's a different conservation.

i'd like to see him try to survive any type of mild punishment.

He had 12 people attacking him...

they must have been really bad. unless he was getting heals from a healer there's no way you can live 12 semi competent people on a magden. that's just not how this patch works.

He heals himself. You can see YouTube videos of people doing the exact same thing. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible, ya know?

He wears pariah. I don't know what light set he wears. It's not a build I'm interested in. The only mag character I run is templar.

It's the old "I'm in light armor so I just get killed." It's not really true. You just have to be ready to work hard if you get surrounded or work hard to keep at range.

But honestly he fights mostly in melee anyway because he's a crazy person. Does he die? We all die. But this idea that no one can run magden in Cyro isn't really true. It's not like we're talking about magdk.

not even vampire pariah helps you to survive on magicka warden since your burst healing is too awful. i don't believe he didn't have outside help to live against 12 people unless they were really bad.

Burst healing is awful? Lol. You got multiple burst heals that one crit can fill you up. Plus you can drop hots, which he does.

Believe what you want.

i'll believe what i see and have seen for a long time. trellis, blast and shrooms don't burst heal for very much at all, budding seeds is incredibly buggy and takes too long to burst heal yourself even if you spam it, when it is then prone to bugs and lag, being forced to use resto means your blocking will suck and your best burst heal becomes blessing of restoration. trees's burst heal is alright but it's not as much as a single necro/templar/sorc burst heal even though it's on a 90 cost ultimate. you can't use annulment because it's too awful even with incredibly high max magicka.

That's just not true about arctic. On a magden with 45k healing with passives that thing is just as strong as honor the dead.

Hell, I just checked my magden defile tank. 28k mag. Trash spell damage. I critted 18k on my arctic. Base it was still 13k.

Please, just go on YouTube and search magden pvp and watch them murder people. It's not an easy build but it can rock people.

the more you funnel into health just to get a good heal, the more your damage takes a hit, that's just a fact. you cannot balance being a full hp tank with being a damage dealer unless you're fighting bad players. good luck trying to fight good players with that.

I have an example of what I can do on a 35k magden tank with no CP healing slots.

A 45k mag magden blows my heals out if the water. You can easily full heal from 1% with a crit arctic.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

35k hp? that's nothing. 45k is okay healing but no damage. neither is good.

My magden is 35k health, 28k mag and like 24k Stam or thereabouts.

Magden DDs run 45k MAG.

On my tank with only 28k mag and no healing slotables my arctic tool tip is 13k and it crits around 18k.

Magden with 45k Magicka and all passives blows my tank healing out of the water.

ESO_Nightingale

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I watched my buddy over the weekend drop down into a full group on the inner door. No help. Hit storm and wiped em in 15 seconds. I recognized the names. They weren't slouches.

I don't have any way to share his videos or I would.

Point is, they are harder to use and take A LOT of practice but they can murder with the best of them in the right hands. Now if you wanna argue that should be as easy as Stam, well that's a different conservation.

i'd like to see him try to survive any type of mild punishment.

He had 12 people attacking him...

they must have been really bad. unless he was getting heals from a healer there's no way you can live 12 semi competent people on a magden. that's just not how this patch works.

He heals himself. You can see YouTube videos of people doing the exact same thing. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's impossible, ya know?

He wears pariah. I don't know what light set he wears. It's not a build I'm interested in. The only mag character I run is templar.

It's the old "I'm in light armor so I just get killed." It's not really true. You just have to be ready to work hard if you get surrounded or work hard to keep at range.

But honestly he fights mostly in melee anyway because he's a crazy person. Does he die? We all die. But this idea that no one can run magden in Cyro isn't really true. It's not like we're talking about magdk.

not even vampire pariah helps you to survive on magicka warden since your burst healing is too awful. i don't believe he didn't have outside help to live against 12 people unless they were really bad.

Burst healing is awful? Lol. You got multiple burst heals that one crit can fill you up. Plus you can drop hots, which he does.

Believe what you want.

i'll believe what i see and have seen for a long time. trellis, blast and shrooms don't burst heal for very much at all, budding seeds is incredibly buggy and takes too long to burst heal yourself even if you spam it, when it is then prone to bugs and lag, being forced to use resto means your blocking will suck and your best burst heal becomes blessing of restoration. trees's burst heal is alright but it's not as much as a single necro/templar/sorc burst heal even though it's on a 90 cost ultimate. you can't use annulment because it's too awful even with incredibly high max magicka.

That's just not true about arctic. On a magden with 45k healing with passives that thing is just as strong as honor the dead.

Hell, I just checked my magden defile tank. 28k mag. Trash spell damage. I critted 18k on my arctic. Base it was still 13k.

Please, just go on YouTube and search magden pvp and watch them murder people. It's not an easy build but it can rock people.

the more you funnel into health just to get a good heal, the more your damage takes a hit, that's just a fact. you cannot balance being a full hp tank with being a damage dealer unless you're fighting bad players. good luck trying to fight good players with that.

I have an example of what I can do on a 35k magden tank with no CP healing slots.

A 45k mag magden blows my heals out if the water. You can easily full heal from 1% with a crit arctic.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

35k hp? that's nothing. 45k is okay healing but no damage. neither is good.

My magden is 35k health, 28k mag and like 24k Stam or thereabouts.

Magden DDs run 45k MAG.

On my tank with only 28k mag and no healing slotables my arctic tool tip is 13k and it crits around 18k.

Magden with 45k Magicka and all passives blows my tank healing out of the water.

good magden dds don't run that much max magicka anymore, that's a really outdated build style. and it doesn't make a difference anyway, tried it on pts. the healing is far from enough in pvp, shields aren't good as well, so there's no point in building the max magicka anyway. northern is only good in smallscale groups, you're better off running DBoS. And if you build a decent tooltip for blast your damage is not enough. if you're getting 13k ticks in pvp non crit, i'm seriously concerned just how much you're tickling people for.

Jameson18

TheEndBringer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I have an example of what I can do on a 35k magden tank with no CP healing slots.

A 45k mag magden blows my heals out if the water. You can easily full heal from 1% with a crit arctic.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

35k hp? that's nothing. 45k is okay healing but no damage. neither is good.

My magden is 35k health, 28k mag and like 24k Stam or thereabouts.

Magden DDs run 45k MAG.

On my tank with only 28k mag and no healing slotables my arctic tool tip is 13k and it crits around 18k.

Magden with 45k Magicka and all passives blows my tank healing out of the water.

You know that 45k magicka doesn't have an impact on arctic blast/polar wind, right?

My warden tank has 48k hp and only hits non crit polars for maybe 10-11k? In 6 heavy. How are you getting 13k?

Are you aware of the 20% nerf that just happened to the arctic blast/polar wind heal?

BohnT2

Jazraena wrote: »

[snip]

Well there is nothing wrong about that statement.

[edited to remove quote]

Jazraena

No, it's not wrong at all.

In the context of Restoration Staves being all some others have it's just utterly perplexing, and I'm not even going towards the comparison of Warden spells vs Blessing of Restoration.

ESO_Nightingale

Jazraena wrote: »

No, it's not wrong at all.

In the context of Restoration Staves being all some others have it's just utterly perplexing, and I'm not even going towards the comparison of Warden spells vs Blessing of Restoration.

Tell me why blessing of restoration isn't our best burst heal? Or only real option?

It's our cheapest most reliable option for quick burst healing. Do you expect that relying on an incredibly laggy/buggy budding seeds is going to compare to a quick necro/templar/sorc heal? Because it doesn't.

Trellis burst heals for basically nothing. Shrooms costs both an arm and a leg for an awful self heal. Blast is roughly as good as shrooms but can vary depending on how much health you funnel into the class to try and make it viable before ultimately realising you should either give up, become a full group healer or swap to stamden/magcro.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings!

Recently, we've had to remove a few posts for Spamming and Baiting, content that is against the Community Rules.

• Spamming: Please do not post spam on the official The Elder Scrolls Online forums. Below are a few examples of what we define as spamming:
  - Posting the same message more than once
  - Posting messages that are nonsensical or have no real content
  - Posting messages or images large enough to disrupt the normal flow of conversation
  - Reposting material that has been removed by a member of the ESO Team
  - Also, please refrain from posting the same topic in multiple areas of the forum, or cross-posting in an attempt to gain further views or replies. This is considered spamming, and the duplicate threads will be removed.
  For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment.

• Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

With that being said, we ask that future posts are kept civil, constructive and on topic within these guidelines.

Thank you for understanding.

BohnT2

Magwarden viability discussions aside.
I'm concerned the underlying problem and the reason I opened this thread won't be fixed in the future which will continue to cause negative effects on the game, although those are easily avoidable, just as easy as avoiding an Ultimate after they've had casttimes added to them.

Jazraena

You're missing my point, Nightingale.

Having a dedicated healing tree at all already puts Warden well ahead of plenty others - others that do, in fact, have no choice but slot a Restoration staff. You do. You just decide to somehow declare all of it not worth it and then drop some hyperbole.

I mean, Shrooms is awful, really? A self-heal independent of weapons, within less than 10% of Blessing of Protection that also grants you resource recovery buffs? That is also roughly equal to Healing Ritual, but cheaper?

Sure, Healing Ritual isn't the strongest selfheal burst the Templar has; Rushed Ceremony does more, but that doesn't make Shrooms 'Awful'. Compared to a two-slot skill like the Sorcerer's twilight, the argument becomes even flimsier, and the rest of the Sorcerer's healing kit is starkly more limited.

I'm not saying Magden is as strong as a Stamden right now, or that others may or may not have individually better skills, but as a whole, Magden really isn't disadvantaged in terms of its healing toolkits.

BohnT2

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing my point, Nightingale.

Having a dedicated healing tree at all already puts Warden well ahead of plenty others - others that do, in fact, have no choice but slot a Restoration staff. You do. You just decide to somehow declare all of it not worth it and then drop some hyperbole.

I mean, Shrooms is awful, really? A self-heal independent of weapons, within less than 10% of Blessing of Protection that also grants you resource recovery buffs? That is also roughly equal to Healing Ritual, but cheaper?

Sure, Healing Ritual isn't the strongest selfheal burst the Templar has; Rushed Ceremony does more, but that doesn't make Shrooms 'Awful'. Compared to a two-slot skill like the Sorcerer's twilight, the argument becomes even flimsier, and the rest of the Sorcerer's healing kit is starkly more limited.

I'm not saying Magden is as strong as a Stamden right now, or that others may or may not have individually better skills, but as a whole, Magden really isn't disadvantaged in terms of its healing toolkits.

I disagree, but this isn't the post to discuss this so I won't be going into detail.
To make it short:
Of the 5 available healing skills only 2 are useable those being living vines and shrooms, by useable I mean they are just above slightly above the trash category.

Shrooms simply don't heal enough on magden, they won't keep you alive when you're in a pinch, trellis are fine but on their own they just don't cut it either especially when you're intending to do more than cycling heals without going offensive.

But as I said this is not the thread to discuss this further so please no more replies targeted at discussing the viability of magden

DrSlaughtr

Anytime someone struggles with a class and build, it must be the class/build's fault. This has been true since Everquest. Fact is, there are PLENTY of magdens that tear up Cyro. As I've said, you can find tons of videos and builds on youtube that will tell you how to do it.

Magdens are harder to run than Stamdens, ergo they are weaker because your average player can't pick it up and just spam subassault and dizzy/whirling. But there's really only one class that sucks in PVP and that's magDK. Magdens are NOWHERE near as useless as MagDK in PVP.

Arctic/Polar were nerfed because they were quite frankly the best burst heal in the game with the combined effects. Even still they perform great. If that were not the case, Stamdens would have abandoned it (which we haven't). The base tooltip for Polar/Arctic are nearly the same as Breath of Life and Honor the Dead. Not to mention the fact that just for casting a heal you get Minor Toughness.

Ultimately magdens will die faster than stamdens if you get up close but they aren't a dead class. Again, just go to youtube. Don't take my word for it.

Raeyleigh

Magden shares most of its good class skills with stamden, but stamden gets a lot of generic stamina skills extra.
In reality magden is the poverty version of stamden, similiar to how stamplar is just a poverty version of magplar, or magblade is a poverty version of either stamblade or magsorc depending on build.

Magden needs more class specific strengths that stamden doesnt have.

amanes

To me this threads tells that people are dying from more experienced PvP players and istead of trying to be better blame some specific classes and demand a nerf for them.

I am not a good PvP player but still I enjoy playing it yet I never blame someone that plays better than the only reason he/she is because of an OP class.

From the early days of ESO I remember people complain about classes that are OP and asking for a nerf (e.g sorc,dk's wings etc.) at the time.

So this whole thing sounds to me more like L2P issue and less this class is broken,as it always has been.

BohnT2

amanes wrote: »

To me this threads tells that people are dying from more experienced PvP players and istead of trying to be better blame some specific classes and demand a nerf for them.

I am not a good PvP player but still I enjoy playing it yet I never blame someone that plays better than the only reason he/she is because of an OP class.

From the early days of ESO I remember people complain about classes that are OP and asking for a nerf (e.g sorc,dk's wings etc.) at the time.

So this whole thing sounds to me more like L2P issue and less this class is broken,as it always has been.

I wonder why every good PvPer consents that the specs I've mentioned are overperforming.

Please read the initial post of this thread where I explain in detail why Necromancers are overperforming. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/580062/necromancers-are-overperforming/p1

Sanguinor2

Zos attempts at bringing the ceiling and the floor closer together in terms of PvE dps should be sufficient as an example why across the board changes dont work when trying to balance two extremely differently performing things. In this case the class(es) at the top will always have a much easier time dealing with the changes while those at the bottom have a much harder time to compensate for them.

Xahran

amanes wrote: »

To me this threads tells that people are dying from more experienced PvP players and istead of trying to be better blame some specific classes and demand a nerf for them.

I am not a good PvP player but still I enjoy playing it yet I never blame someone that plays better than the only reason he/she is because of an OP class.

From the early days of ESO I remember people complain about classes that are OP and asking for a nerf (e.g sorc,dk's wings etc.) at the time.

So this whole thing sounds to me more like L2P issue and less this class is broken,as it always has been.

Remember magplar in late 2019? Living dark that has more powerful heals than it currently is and roots everybody attacking you + ritual snaring everyone in the vicinity all while the magplar putting 3 or 4 dots on you when dots were much more powerful? Almost half the population of Cyrodiil were magplars then, that even I as a magplar main got tired of the cheese and took a break. There is L2P for sure, but there are classes who have it easier than others too.