Changes across the board are wrong, when classes aren't balanced properly

BohnT2

If you take one thing from this post:
Nerf Necromancers and stam warden

In the Combat Preview for this patch, the combat team has told us about their view on TTK being too low and that they want to increase it by changing Battle Spirit (from here on referred to as BS).
Before we've seen the details in the Patch Notes 7.1.0 there have already been big concerns in PvP discords and guilds about this plan as a BS change always affects every single spec in the game which predominately favors classes that are already ahead, namely Necromancers and stamden.
With the first week Zos went way too far on the mitigation changes, not only did we see a ~20%(19.8x%) damage mitigation from the BS change alone but we've also seen the introduction of a huge amount of defensive CP with no offensive ones to compete along with an option of having access to major protection passively.
The result was, duels just didn't end, even with three offensive sets and unbinding dodge roll, fights didn't end.

Week 3 (Patch 7.1.2) has now tuned back some of the BS changes but has also reduced the healing by 10% across the board.
This healing nerf will punish specs that already had a hard time being autarkic with their healing power like DK, Magden, Magnb.
At the same time 4 specs aren't really punished by the changes: Magsorc, Stamwarden, both Necromancers.
Apart from magsorc, who uses shields as their main defensive option, the other three specs have insanely high healing on top of being more tanky to begin with than other specs which means they can afford losing some healing as they still have more than enough while they directly benefit from other specs having less healing overall.

The picture I'm drawing here is telling the story of the most powerful specs securing their position on top of the food chain even further while the classes below will either be even worse than before in comparison or will be kept at the same distance.

The PvP Meta has been stale for almost 4 years now with warden and then necromancer sitting on the throne with the peasant classes only getting small crumbs of viability from time to time with some like Stamdk never getting it.

TTK being too low should have been tackled by other means. First of all the 3 overperforming specs (Necromancers and stam warden) should have received direct nerfs to their toolkit and their survivability to get them on somewhat even footing with the other classes.
Then burst from certain specs should have be touched, 1 shot stamsorc builds for example but more importantly nerfing the vate 2h which still allows people to stack burst in one GCD which results in TTK be rather low especially when mixed with the two overperforming stamspecs Necromancer and warden with their delayed AoE nukes, blastbones and shalks.

The main reason for this is, that TTK on other classes is really really good, fights end in a reasonable time, mistakes are punishable but you're not helpless (except when you fight a stamden or necro), if Casttimes and positioning being calculated on the servers weren't a thing this patch could have been actually good.

To sum this all up: Balance is really good outside of the extremes on both the defensive and offensive side, those extreme spikes should have been smoothed while the rest of the pack shouldn't be affected by changes.


P.S.

nerf thundercaller and Hrothgar's proactively, they'll become OP at one point in the future if they stay the same on PTS

P.S.2

give stamdk an instant meele class spammable

BohnT2

This picture shows the game once Waking Flames launches on the live server

Wing

i agree that battle spirit adjustments are pointless when class balance is so bad.

increasing mitigation makes the weak classes survivable and the strong classes immortal.

reducing the healing makes weak classes even weaker and strong classes a tiny bit less strong.


while battle spirit changes may define the meta as a whole, tank or dps, it does nothing to solve the problem of some classes being garbage and some being op, regardless of current meta.

very disappointing.

Grandchamp1989

If you want to homogenize all the classes then you have to take a hard look at classes who can disengage from combat at will like Sorc and NB.

Yes Stamcro got insane defensive option and yes StamDen are great at bursting (so is Templar this patch) but they got no way of exiting unfavorable matchups like Sorcs with the Streak and NB with Cloak. They're stuck in combat until they win or die.

So if you want to homogenize the classes to it fairly and remove streak and cloak if you want Stamden and Necro to become a bucket of "meh".

Jazraena

Tragically, it feels like instead they bought fully into the Nightblades burst apart everyone meme as being the PvP Status Quo.

VixxVexx

Good thing you left out magden.
The healing of arctic blast is already pretty sad, even with 40k health (ddf) and major mending.
Now another 10% reduction on top of that.

ZoS: Oh but here's your new frost spammable, stop complaining.

BohnT2

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you want to homogenize all the classes then you have to take a hard look at classes who can disengage from combat at will like Sorc and NB.

Yes Stamcro got insane defensive option and yes StamDen are great at bursting (so is Templar this patch) but they got no way of exiting unfavorable matchups like Sorcs with the Streak and NB with Cloak. They're stuck in combat until they win or die.

So if you want to homogenize the classes to it fairly and remove streak and cloak if you want Stamden and Necro to become a bucket of "meh".

Necro and warden are the definition of homogenized classes, they're literally the mirror image of one another with different animations but their class design is the same and it's the root of many of the problems the game had since their introduction.

I'd be actually glad if we had a patch where Magsorc and Stamnb are the only issues we have.

Grandchamp1989

BohnT2 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you want to homogenize all the classes then you have to take a hard look at classes who can disengage from combat at will like Sorc and NB.

Yes Stamcro got insane defensive option and yes StamDen are great at bursting (so is Templar this patch) but they got no way of exiting unfavorable matchups like Sorcs with the Streak and NB with Cloak. They're stuck in combat until they win or die.

So if you want to homogenize the classes to it fairly and remove streak and cloak if you want Stamden and Necro to become a bucket of "meh".

Necro and warden are the definition of homogenized classes, they're literally the mirror image of one another with different animations but their class design is the same and it's the root of many of the problems the game had since their introduction.

I'd be actually glad if we had a patch where Magsorc and Stamnb are the only issues we have.

Being able to choose when and how you want to engage in favorable fights and “nope” out of fights that kill you is broken.
Lets make necro less tanky and Warden less bursty but it Will cost you streak and cloak that should be deleted from the game. Its only fair.

BohnT2

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you want to homogenize all the classes then you have to take a hard look at classes who can disengage from combat at will like Sorc and NB.

Yes Stamcro got insane defensive option and yes StamDen are great at bursting (so is Templar this patch) but they got no way of exiting unfavorable matchups like Sorcs with the Streak and NB with Cloak. They're stuck in combat until they win or die.

So if you want to homogenize the classes to it fairly and remove streak and cloak if you want Stamden and Necro to become a bucket of "meh".

Necro and warden are the definition of homogenized classes, they're literally the mirror image of one another with different animations but their class design is the same and it's the root of many of the problems the game had since their introduction.

I'd be actually glad if we had a patch where Magsorc and Stamnb are the only issues we have.

Being able to choose when and how you want to engage in favorable fights and “nope” out of fights that kill you is broken.
Lets make necro less tanky and Warden less bursty but it Will cost you streak and cloak that should be deleted from the game. Its only fair.

It's not, being able to disengage at will holds the power of being overtuned but that's easily fixable by forcing those specs to stay in fights in order to get kills but that's a different discussion for a different thread

Grandchamp1989

BohnT2 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

If you want to homogenize all the classes then you have to take a hard look at classes who can disengage from combat at will like Sorc and NB.

Yes Stamcro got insane defensive option and yes StamDen are great at bursting (so is Templar this patch) but they got no way of exiting unfavorable matchups like Sorcs with the Streak and NB with Cloak. They're stuck in combat until they win or die.

So if you want to homogenize the classes to it fairly and remove streak and cloak if you want Stamden and Necro to become a bucket of "meh".

Necro and warden are the definition of homogenized classes, they're literally the mirror image of one another with different animations but their class design is the same and it's the root of many of the problems the game had since their introduction.

I'd be actually glad if we had a patch where Magsorc and Stamnb are the only issues we have.

Being able to choose when and how you want to engage in favorable fights and “nope” out of fights that kill you is broken.
Lets make necro less tanky and Warden less bursty but it Will cost you streak and cloak that should be deleted from the game. Its only fair.

It's not, being able to disengage at will holds the power of being overtuned but that's easily fixable by forcing those specs to stay in fights in order to get kills but that's a different discussion for a different thread

It really isn't though. Those two abilities should be deleted from the game. It's broken beyond belief.

GrigorijMalahevich

PvP Magicka Necromancer has the worst offensive toolkit of any class by far!
Harmony nerf
Major vuln nerf
Mag blastbones essentially has no secondary effect since the damage modifier doesn't work now that blastbones doesn't run to the target.
Mag skulls are very slow spammable and have inferior secondary effects compared to other spammable options such as Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon, and even the stam skulls.
The Skeletal Arcanist deals incredibly low damage after battlespirit and doesn't target who you're immediately trying to kill.
Mystic siphon is completely useless in PvP.
Hungry Scythe from the Bone Tyrant tree just doesn't do enough damage to warrant use.
Despite having a DOT damage passive, mag necros don't have a single viable DOT for PvP in their class trees
Mag necros have no class access to major sorcery OR major prophecy.

Jazraena

Considering I can literally catch up to a streaking magsorc while running with any speedbuff of my choice... Eh?

As for Shadowy Disguise, the problem isn't that this skill is OP, it's that it's either extremely powerful or utterly useless depending on situation - and the entirety of the Nightblade class feels built around that one skill; and to a lesser degree Shade. The only reason either Nightblade works at all is Shadowy Disguise.

Take that away, and you can effectively delete Nightblade from PvP.

It's not as simple as just removing or changing it.

BohnT2

Can we please not discuss Cloak or Streak as they aren't responsible for any of the battle spirit changes we've seen on pts and aren't linked to necromancers and stamden coming out on top once again while everyone else suffers

master_vanargand

Is Blastbones useless?
No, it's an OP skill.

Jazraena

They very much are relevant in people's head, however.

ZOS has apparently somehow embraced the mindset that we have a PvP meta dominated by gankblades and similar burst specs, instead of what you laid out in the OP. Why? Dunno, maybe because of the consistent forum complaints to that regard, or because people just hate getting ganked from stealth. Seems to be a consistent gripe across games, after all.

I agree with you that they aren't a problem - but it sure feels like a lot of people, including ZOS, thinks so, which is why they address things this way instead of targeting specifics.

katorga

Jazraena wrote: »

Tragically, it feels like instead they bought fully into the Nightblades burst apart everyone meme as being the PvP Status Quo.

And the one shot Sorc build.

The problem is none of that is consistent and immutable. Sometimes a NB will burst me to zero. Other times they fail. Some times a bomber wrecks me, other times, I destroy the bomber. And so on.

The result on the forum? Posts about "too much burst" and posts about "players are too tanky".

ZOS picked burst and did a knee-jerk nerf.

But ZOS can't really make up their minds because the forums are contradictory, and already complaining about next patch's "Tank Meta".

So ZOS splits the difference with a slight increase to damage mitigation and a nerf to healing. Which basically cancel each other out (so why do anything at all?).

My take is permanent major breach and healing nerfs mean we stay with the insane burst builds tearing players apart meme.

Jazraena

I'd go further and say as long as we have any situation where a character might get ganked from 100 to 0 without warning, people are going to complain about #BurstTooDamnHigh. So, basically as long as people can sneak.

Arunei

I'll never understand the people calling for nerfs to underperforming skills, sets, or Classes, rather than calling for buffs to the things that are underperforming. People seem to forget that all the nerfs you want in PvP will translate to PvE as well, since ZOS refuses to balance the two game modes separately. People also seem to forget how ZOS likes to take a wrecking ball to things that only require a hammer, and a chainsaw to things that only require a scalpel. Most of the time people call for nerfs and the times ZOS listens, it's always overdone, and then you get people yelling "oh no that's TOO much of a nerf!" Well...you're just getting what you asked for.

This is just another example of why ZOS really does need to balance PvE and PvP separately. Things that work well for one game mode will more than likely be broken in some way, either for the better or for the worse, for the other game mode. Take Rush of Agony for example, in PvE it might annoy tanks if a DPS misuses it, but in PvP it can be used to bounce players around without giving them much of a chance to react. There are just certain sets and skills that do NOT translate well between PvE and PvP. You'd think they would expand on Battle Spirit more, but who knows, maybe the game engine can't do or handle that.

fred4

BohnT2 wrote: »

Battle Spirit (from here on referred to as BS).

Hahahaha. Love it!

katorga

Arunei wrote: »

This is just another example of why ZOS really does need to balance PvE and PvP separately. .

That is exactly what Battle Spirit does.

BohnT2

Arunei wrote: »

I'll never understand the people calling for nerfs to underperforming skills, sets, or Classes, rather than calling for buffs to the things that are underperforming. People seem to forget that all the nerfs you want in PvP will translate to PvE as well, since ZOS refuses to balance the two game modes separately. People also seem to forget how ZOS likes to take a wrecking ball to things that only require a hammer, and a chainsaw to things that only require a scalpel. Most of the time people call for nerfs and the times ZOS listens, it's always overdone, and then you get people yelling "oh no that's TOO much of a nerf!" Well...you're just getting what you asked for.

This is just another example of why ZOS really does need to balance PvE and PvP separately. Things that work well for one game mode will more than likely be broken in some way, either for the better or for the worse, for the other game mode. Take Rush of Agony for example, in PvE it might annoy tanks if a DPS misuses it, but in PvP it can be used to bounce players around without giving them much of a chance to react. There are just certain sets and skills that do NOT translate well between PvE and PvP. You'd think they would expand on Battle Spirit more, but who knows, maybe the game engine can't do or handle that.

I assume you ment "nerfs to overperforming stuff".
In that case it's really simple, there's multiple reasons why you'd rather nerf a few things than buff many others.
1. Time, the dev team is already understaffed and having to balance 8-9 different specs individually is taking a lot of time
2. More changes have a higher chance of creating new imbalances, especially in conjunction with lack of time it's very easy for things to become unbalanced after being buffed especially because you'd have to test everything vs the other buffed specs requiring even more time that you don't have
3. Powercreep, perfect balance doesn't exist and thus buffing all the underperforming specs starts a vicious circle that keeps increasing power across all classes causing to new balance issues.


That's why it's much easier to smooth the extremes to be more in line with the average than shifting everything to the performance levels of the extremes.

Also keep in mind, the only reason you see PvPers complain so much on the forums is that NPCs don't have a forum account.

Jazraena

Mhm. Buff or nerf, tweaking outliers is always a simpler and less destructive approach than attempting to adjust everything else to said outliers.

Stx

What makes stamwarden so good at self healing? Living trellis? Arctic blast? I don't play one but I have never got the impression they had any more healing than other stam classes.

xDeusEJRx

I'd prefer having one patch where the meta doesn't shift drastically. It's annoying having to change setups because players can't decide whether they love or hate some playstyles. At this point players have ZoS just rolling a 32 sided dice and whatever it lands on becomes the meta with how every update brings about drastic change

Jameson18

Stx wrote: »

What makes stamwarden so good at self healing? Living trellis? Arctic blast? I don't play one but I have never got the impression they had any more healing than other stam classes.

The nerf to arctic blast/polar wind pretty much took care of it. The upcoming healing received change will drive it the rest of the way home.

Living trellis/vines are "ok", if you have enough of a cross on spell damage. With pvp currently requiring loads of penetration though, heals aren't that strong unless you make the decision to go for it. Which basically then is pretty balanced. Currently my templar and nightblade are strongest. I've also not wanted to make any changes for s3 vamp to my wardens or necros though.

There are some obvious class imbalance and identity outliers, but often times people mistake folks gearing toward cheese as a class imbalance.

DrSlaughtr

Didn't you guys know that you can't talk about necros and wardens being op pay to win without one of their players complaining about shadowy disguise? 🙄

Here are facts.

Necros and Wardens are great AT EVERYTHING. They don't need to disengage with mist or invis pots because they very easily can be built to not only survive 1v10 but also murder them down.

Sorcs and NBs both have glaring weaknesses. I can get one shotted by a warden dawnbreaker or even a crit dizzy. My only defense is shadowy disguise. I normally don't even run a heal because to be optimal I can't afford the slot.

Sorcs have a lot of power and good healing but they can't take damage like warden and necros. Pop them a few times and they'll try to streak. All that does is buy them a little time. It doesn't make them immortal unless you chose not to persue.

Yes there are a few one shot sorcs running around but you don't see many because 1: it's not easy to do. 2: you sacrifice a lot to be able to land one really hard hit. 3: add those things together and you have a build most people don't find fun, ergo most won't play it that way.

Every base game class has built in weaknesses. That's not to say they are perfectly balanced but the true outliers are warden and necros.

Edit: I used to main tank Necro for sweaty trials groups, including hms. The amount of mitigation you can keep up 100% of the time is obscene.

ESO_Nightingale

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Didn't you guys know that you can't talk about necros and wardens being op pay to win without one of their players complaining about shadowy disguise? 🙄

Here are facts.

Necros and Wardens are great AT EVERYTHING. They don't need to disengage with mist or invis pots because they very easily can be built to not only survive 1v10 but also murder them down.

Sorcs and NBs both have glaring weaknesses. I can get one shotted by a warden dawnbreaker or even a crit dizzy. My only defense is shadowy disguise. I normally don't even run a heal because to be optimal I can't afford the slot.

Sorcs have a lot of power and good healing but they can't take damage like warden and necros. Pop them a few times and they'll try to streak. All that does is buy them a little time. It doesn't make them immortal unless you chose not to persue.

Yes there are a few one shot sorcs running around but you don't see many because 1: it's not easy to do. 2: you sacrifice a lot to be able to land one really hard hit. 3: add those things together and you have a build most people don't find fun, ergo most won't play it that way.

Every base game class has built in weaknesses. That's not to say they are perfectly balanced but the true outliers are warden and necros.

Edit: I used to main tank Necro for sweaty trials groups, including hms. The amount of mitigation you can keep up 100% of the time is obscene.

Stamden*

Curious_Death

hahaha... slow clap.
*NB can one shoot ppl - have ~9k spammable with biggest survival tooltip - high risk high gain
*stamsorcs can oneshoot ppl using overload + molag kena + new moon/titanborn with mechanical acuity and vamp toggle with st4 - they re invisible...
*magsorcs - shield should be count as healing - they re immortal with high magicka ... and ofc dmg scales from magicka
BIS 1v1 re magdk - they can burn u alive with ~5k damage per second
*magcro re bis for group play - u use revive ultimate for 3 blastbones u call own = 4x blastbones and then use synergy from graveyard - ONESHOOT
*stamdens and stamcros re immortal beasts if u keep buffs up - and have best burst among all classes (not counting NB again)
stamdk - stack weapon dmg and use corrosive = bang! ur dizzyswing hits for +7k and u cannot be killed. - insane defense
magdens - weaker version of group magdk - its a worst pvp class atm - only good for killing nb's
templars have overall good this patch - stamplar lack of burst but have insane pressure and magplar is good overall.

ps. i play pvp for 4 yrs, and the balance was never good - todays its just UGLY. tbh classes starting to play second role - the 1st role and most important is to EXPLOIT gear combo with broken vampire st3. - like essence thief + vamp st3, thats why most players stick with groups - coz they dont understand how most gear works and have not enough time or gold to test every gear combo.

BohnT2

Curious_Death wrote: »

hahaha... slow clap.
*NB can one shoot ppl - have ~9k spammable with biggest survival tooltip - high risk high gain
*stamsorcs can oneshoot ppl using overload + molag kena + new moon/titanborn with mechanical acuity and vamp toggle with st4 - they re invisible...
*magsorcs - shield should be count as healing - they re immortal with high magicka ... and ofc dmg scales from magicka
BIS 1v1 re magdk - they can burn u alive with ~5k damage per second
*magcro re bis for group play - u use revive ultimate for 3 blastbones u call own = 4x blastbones and then use synergy from graveyard - ONESHOOT
*stamdens and stamcros re immortal beasts if u keep buffs up - and have best burst among all classes (not counting NB again)
stamdk - stack weapon dmg and use corrosive = bang! ur dizzyswing hits for +7k and u cannot be killed. - insane defense
magdens - weaker version of group magdk - its a worst pvp class atm - only good for killing nb's
templars have overall good this patch - stamplar lack of burst but have insane pressure and magplar is good overall.

ps. i play pvp for 4 yrs, and the balance was never good - todays its just UGLY. tbh classes starting to play second role - the 1st role and most important is to EXPLOIT gear combo with broken vampire st3. - like essence thief + vamp st3, thats why most players stick with groups - coz they dont understand how most gear works and have not enough time or gold to test every gear combo.

Using the stuff that Zos has put into the game after every good player told them it'll be overperforming isn't exploiting in any way.

GoodFella146

Idk how many patches it's going to take for people to understand but I'll give it a try.

If you want to win you need to pay. There's a reason wardens and necros run around like gods. ZOS has made it clear that you must play one of these two classes and they will never ever be a scenario where these classes will be bottom tier. It's been years already so take the hint.

But what about nightblades? Yeah sure you run around and one shot almost anybody you want with no counterplay (really fun by the way ZOS) but that gets boring fast. Anyone can do the same to adds.

Hopefully this helps everyone moving forward!


Bonus material: Remember if you want to win you must also play stamina. Again it's been years already so at this point everyone should know this, but in case you don't well here it is.

But what about mag sorc or mag templar? Sure those can be ok at times but they ain't gonna do what stam does. Remember, their armor gets rewarded and yours gets penalties! Seems fair to me.

Take care everyone.

Alucardo

Necro going to be insane when they get 10% damage reduction for slotting flare, plus 10% for having a spirit out. Basically 20% mitigation just for being a Necro. IMHO they don't need that 10% from the spirit, and it's a little unfair the class with the highest self healing and potential burst damage has such a thing. Just my thought anyway.