ZOS - Please Clarify Battle Spirit changes and intent.

Jameson18

First, thank you for the shift back to 50% from 55% on the damage taken.

A few questions;

1. Can you clarify that the healing received is a reduction in healing received and not misstated?

While we all know some of the healing is out of hand, it really has more to do with so many separate instances of the same HoTs stacking. It would seem this reduction in healing received is actually counter productive to the damage taken shift. Can you clarify where the data was pulled form or give some formulaic examples as to how you guys came to this conclusion?

2. Does the team not feel the reduction in damage taken will not further exacerbate the Vampire epidemic? (+pariah, armor master, swift, etc. - i'm guilty of using this cheese myself on multiple toons and can confirm the difference between having s3 vamp and not, in conjunction.)

Is the healing received change in regard to this? Would it not be simpler to change the Undeath passive modifier to be something similar but stronger to protection? i.e. perhaps 15%-21%, 5%-7% per stage even perhaps from 100% health. (The Psijic passive should be considered as well. Pre nerf, back when it was 30% before, I was able to stand in stupid with a full raid group beating on me while I healed and filled resources on multiple toons.)

3. Wouldn't a battle spirit reduction in resource recoveries of some sort be more productive to countering stalemates? Even with Stage 4 vampire, I'm clearing 2-3k recovery + racial or glyph cost reductions on some toons. I'm endless. Especially if I'm standing in my rune and ritual on my templar. (Which is ridiculous also, btw.)

4. Are you aware of the current actual tank meta? Do we think this will drive the trend in the other direction by granting more damage taken reduction and people won't build as tanky? The healing reduction, and question #1 kind of address this as well.


Serious questions based on observation and how things currently look to compute. Can we get some further input on the matter from someone on the team?

Segment from patch notes copied below.

Thanks!


Battle Spirit:
Reduced the damage taken bonus to 50% on this effect, down from 55%.
Increased the healing received penalty to 55%, up from 50%.
We will no longer detail the “effective strength” of these changes to prevent potential confusion.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
After sifting through much of the feedback and data provided with dueling and theoretical encounters, we’ve dialed back some of the added mitigation to Battle Spirit. Additionally, we’ve heard much of the discussion on fears that the changes to damage reduction in their current state will cause a heavy resurgence of stalemating encounters, so we’ve also reduced the healing received in these environments in effort to counteract this. By reducing healing taken and increasing base effective health by increasing damage reduction, we hope to see less situations of insane burst tearing players apart, but also similar or less situations where healing supplements your ability to sustain constant pressure.

neferpitou73

I think you're looking for logic where there is none tbh. ZOS has decided that TTK is too short noone is going to change their minds (and to heck with all the people telling them it's fine). So they're going to find a way to work it in that isn't as obviously stupid as the extra mitigation was.

I'm not sure what effect this will have overall. My gut tells me it might slightly increase the tankiness overall and no effect otherwise.

They should just leave everything alone to be honest. I don't know why they feel the need to make this changes especially right after MYM when you had a bunch of inexperienced people trying pvp for the first time and then getting shocked when they get killed by things that have been in the game for years.

Abyssmol

[snip] Well I am a NB and to tell you the truth I think my class should take a major nerf. Come on I can one shot almost everybody from stealth and I think it's not fair.

[edited for baiting]

tsaescishoeshiner

It seems like the intentions were clarified, no? Based on specifically dueling and other types of PvP, they wanted burst to be less effective by increasing damage reduction compared to live, and wanted to prevent stalemates by reducing healing.

Resource recovery reduction would feel terrible IMO. Not being able to do stuff = no fun, and it would just shift the meta to sustain sets that don't grant recovery.

Have you tried the changes out on PTS?

YandereGirlfriend

Yeah, let's not touch resources, okay?

Some of us play in Non-CP where we don't have access to all of the free goodies provided by CP. Free goodies that paper over the otherwise gaping holes found in many builds.

In Non-CP, you actually have to slot glyphs and/or choose a sustain Mundus/race and food unless you want to quickly run dry in any combat situation lasting longer than a gank.

So if you want sustain reductions, please do that through CP which is where the "problem" appears to be. However, there is not currently a problem in Non-CP and we do not want to be collectively punished (again...) for the crimes of CP.

Fawn4287

Its very easy to fix over sustain problems, increase cost or reduce regen based on groups size and limit healing back to grouped players only, the larger your group the less you do personally, in a large enough group you run multiple healers, plus you usually are rolling in buffs provided by others meaning you do probably less than half of what you usually do as a solo since half the aspect of the game is being played purely by someone else. Doesn’t it make sense that your damage abilities should almost double in cost? The answer to nearly everything (other than DLC classes being way to strong) is to butcher how incredibly overpowered larger groups are.

neferpitou73

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Its very easy to fix over sustain problems, increase cost or reduce regen based on groups size and limit healing back to grouped players only, the larger your group the less you do personally, in a large enough group you run multiple healers, plus you usually are rolling in buffs provided by others meaning you do probably less than half of what you usually do as a solo since half the aspect of the game is being played purely by someone else. Doesn’t it make sense that your damage abilities should almost double in cost? The answer to nearly everything (other than DLC classes being way to strong) is to butcher how incredibly overpowered larger groups are.

Yes let's punish people for grouping...in an MMO. Large groups need nerfs but this isn't the solution.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Yeah, let's not touch resources, okay?

Some of us play in Non-CP where we don't have access to all of the free goodies provided by CP. Free goodies that paper over the otherwise gaping holes found in many builds.

In Non-CP, you actually have to slot glyphs and/or choose a sustain Mundus/race and food unless you want to quickly run dry in any combat situation lasting longer than a gank.

So if you want sustain reductions, please do that through CP which is where the "problem" appears to be. However, there is not currently a problem in Non-CP and we do not want to be collectively punished (again...) for the crimes of CP.

Don't worry noone's going to be playing Non-CP anymore anyway

jrgray93

Please leave resources alone. Non-CP PvP is best PvP. Let's not ruin it. BGs go down the drain if non-CP sucks, too.

MashmalloMan

Seemed clear to me.

Jameson18

Abyssmol wrote: »

[snip] Well I am a NB and to tell you the truth I think my class should take a major nerf. Come on I can one shot almost everybody from stealth and I think it's not fair.

I’m using pariah and vamp on both my nbs /shrug. I one shot people and basically have to get zerged or bombed.

If it was that I could one shot people and also be 1 shotted for the trouble, I wouldn’t have an issue.

I’ve got too many toons right now that can rank whole groups while killing people in a simple combo.

That is not balanced. I’ve got a mag and stam of each class. I play them all. It’s impossible to have a clear favorite anymore. So no. It’s not a passive aggressive nb post. It’s an objective post. I see plenty of people doing/using the same things. Which already result in mostly stalemates.

[edited to remove quote]

Marto

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Its very easy to fix over sustain problems, increase cost or reduce regen based on groups size and limit healing back to grouped players only, the larger your group the less you do personally, in a large enough group you run multiple healers, plus you usually are rolling in buffs provided by others meaning you do probably less than half of what you usually do as a solo since half the aspect of the game is being played purely by someone else. Doesn’t it make sense that your damage abilities should almost double in cost? The answer to nearly everything (other than DLC classes being way to strong) is to butcher how incredibly overpowered larger groups are.

That sounds like the complete opposite of an "easy fix"

spacefracking

It's to counteract everyone having permanent major breach

Lughlongarm

The intent is quite clear. ZOS wants to reduce the effectiveness of gank and 2 shot burst builds without taking away the offensive power of consistent damage and dot builds.

The new changes are well positioned to achieve that goal . The only way to check if it actually does is to test and not theorize.

Regardless to the results, these changes(which may be further tweaked) clearly state that ZOS is reading feedback and understanding the community concerns. I'm much more optimistic regarding the upcoming patch after these changes..

Jameson18

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The intent is quite clear. ZOS wants to reduce the effectiveness of gank and 2 shot burst builds without taking away the offensive power of consistent damage and dot builds.

The new changes are well positioned to achieve that goal . The only way to check if it actually does is to test and not theorize.

Regardless to the results, these changes(which may be further tweaked) clearly state that ZOS is reading feedback and understanding the community concerns. I'm much more optimistic regarding the upcoming patch after these changes..

I'm optimistic as well. I just feel that for many builds/classes, the healing received nerf is counter intuitive to the addition of the damage taken reduction.

stefj68

they said they won't why ask?

DrSlaughtr

People who claim they can one shot people as an argument to nerf the class is bogus without a video.

Buffed I'm pushing 8k damage and 20k pen. The only people I one shot (either with ambush or incap) are people under 22k health. I.e. other NBs or people who aren't spec'd for pvp.

You show me a video of a NB one shotting a pariah templar or warden. Until then....

Jameson18

TheEndBringer wrote: »

People who claim they can one shot people as an argument to nerf the class is bogus without a video.

Buffed I'm pushing 8k damage and 20k pen. The only people I one shot (either with ambush or incap) are people under 22k health. I.e. other NBs or people who aren't spec'd for pvp.

You show me a video of a NB one shotting a pariah templar or warden. Until then....

I guess "one shot" isn't exactly accurate. 1-3 gcd? Would that be a more accurate statement?

DrSlaughtr

Jameson18 wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

People who claim they can one shot people as an argument to nerf the class is bogus without a video.

Buffed I'm pushing 8k damage and 20k pen. The only people I one shot (either with ambush or incap) are people under 22k health. I.e. other NBs or people who aren't spec'd for pvp.

You show me a video of a NB one shotting a pariah templar or warden. Until then....

I guess "one shot" isn't exactly accurate. 1-3 gcd? Would that be a more accurate statement?

So ambush - incap - surprise attack - surprise attack - execute

That's what it takes for me to kill anyone above 28k health and after the incap they can move and attack.

The only people I kill with just incap or incap with one surprise attack are a slim monitory of players. Low health. No defensive set. Or they're on seige with no defenses active, i.e. inexperienced player.

Alucardo

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Its very easy to fix over sustain problems, increase cost or reduce regen based on groups size and limit healing back to grouped players only, the larger your group the less you do personally, in a large enough group you run multiple healers, plus you usually are rolling in buffs provided by others meaning you do probably less than half of what you usually do as a solo since half the aspect of the game is being played purely by someone else. Doesn’t it make sense that your damage abilities should almost double in cost? The answer to nearly everything (other than DLC classes being way to strong) is to butcher how incredibly overpowered larger groups are.

Yes let's punish people for grouping...in an MMO. Large groups need nerfs but this isn't the solution.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Yeah, let's not touch resources, okay?

Some of us play in Non-CP where we don't have access to all of the free goodies provided by CP. Free goodies that paper over the otherwise gaping holes found in many builds.

In Non-CP, you actually have to slot glyphs and/or choose a sustain Mundus/race and food unless you want to quickly run dry in any combat situation lasting longer than a gank.

So if you want sustain reductions, please do that through CP which is where the "problem" appears to be. However, there is not currently a problem in Non-CP and we do not want to be collectively punished (again...) for the crimes of CP.

Don't worry noone's going to be playing Non-CP anymore anyway

Battlegrounds?