How is it possible that some classes in PvP require little to 0 sacrifice in stats?

NylAR

I feel like I have to build specifically into being squishy and having lots of damage in PvP on certain classes, or simply build specifically for resistances and healing then do near 0 damage....

Yet whenever i see a Stamina Warden, they just have it all. How come this is a thing? Why can't i have the same damage, 40k health, and tankiness as a warden on... Stamsorc? Or Stamblade? Even if I choose not to use invisibility?

SidraWillowsky

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

coop500

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

Yeah, I mean, I am for buffing the other classes. So many classes have useless skills that just, suck in most content. Everyone's running the same handful of skills while the others collect dust.

Chilly-McFreeze

The structural issue new classes face is the self imposed limitation of trying to divide class skill lines strictly into damage, healing and tanking, thus leaving very little space/ options. Which in turn leads to some overbudget abilites to solve those issues. If you're now bringing those skills more in line the class suffers again from it's bad design philosophy. Not even starting about the PvP/ PvE differences.

It's not only a mechanical issue but also impacts "power fantasy", or however it's called nowadays. Do you want a frost damage warden? Too bad, frost is the tanking line/ element etc pp.

Base classes had a lot more design freedom, yet they were nerfed to give payed classes an edge (templar's healing gutted at warden release, necro introduction went hand in hand with nightblade changes). Plus major buff changes still aren't accounted for in old skills.

joseayalac

They just nerfed Arctic Wind, the most broken Warden PvP skill.

The nerf was nice because it didn't affect PvE.

About stamblades being tanky, no thanks, that would compromise class identity and playstyle and make classes just feel like flavors of the same thing.

Marillea

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

They also could start giving each skill and respective morphs 2 functions, one for PvE, one for PvP. That way no PvE player has to suffer, and we might actually reach a point of balance, eventually, in PvP.
Surely better than nerfing and buffing non stop because one side is always unhappy with the outcome.

SidraWillowsky

coop500 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

Yeah, I mean, I am for buffing the other classes. So many classes have useless skills that just, suck in most content. Everyone's running the same handful of skills while the others collect dust.

That's also true- the only skill in the Warden toolkit that I don't see used is Nature's Grasp. All classes deserve to have that level of variety.

coop500

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

Yeah, I mean, I am for buffing the other classes. So many classes have useless skills that just, suck in most content. Everyone's running the same handful of skills while the others collect dust.

That's also true- the only skill in the Warden toolkit that I don't see used is Nature's Grasp. All classes deserve to have that level of variety.

Yeah, I love my wardens and I'd hate to see them gutted like the rest of the classes, IMPROVE the other classes and stop the gutting!

Firstmep

coop500 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

Yeah, I mean, I am for buffing the other classes. So many classes have useless skills that just, suck in most content. Everyone's running the same handful of skills while the others collect dust.

That's also true- the only skill in the Warden toolkit that I don't see used is Nature's Grasp. All classes deserve to have that level of variety.

Yeah, I love my wardens and I'd hate to see them gutted like the rest of the classes, IMPROVE the other classes and stop the gutting!

Nerfing arctic winds was kinda necessary, strong hp based heals can create some very toxic high hp builds, and even without sprockets getting good dmg while still having 40k hp isn't too hard.

coop500

Firstmep wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I personally think it's because the class needs those things to be decent in PvE. It took giving the class all of those buffs and that damage to get it to the point that it was worth running in PvE.

Unfortunately, that also made it beyond obnoxious in PvP- I completely agree with your assessment that it requires very little sacrifice to be a DPS, tank, and healer all at the same time. I wish there was a way to tone it down in PvP without killing it again in PvE (*cough*Battle Spirit*cough*).

Or, better yet, they could just, y'know, buff the other classes...

Yeah, I mean, I am for buffing the other classes. So many classes have useless skills that just, suck in most content. Everyone's running the same handful of skills while the others collect dust.

That's also true- the only skill in the Warden toolkit that I don't see used is Nature's Grasp. All classes deserve to have that level of variety.

Yeah, I love my wardens and I'd hate to see them gutted like the rest of the classes, IMPROVE the other classes and stop the gutting!

Nerfing arctic winds was kinda necessary, strong hp based heals can create some very toxic high hp builds, and even without sprockets getting good dmg while still having 40k hp isn't too hard.

Never said it wasn't needed, but any further nerfs will start hurting PVE

I play all the classes, they need help, not Warden torn down to their hollow shells.
I have 18 characters on NA and 11 characters on EU. I play all classes plenty.

VaranisArano

Wardens are as strong as they are because they were the first class designed to actually play according to the mag/stam divide that developed over time, and after it became clear that players wanted to be be able to play effective tanks, healers, and DDs on every class.

The four base classes were designed back when ZOS expected everyone to use magicka for class skills, with stamina and weapons being mainly for movement and flavor. There were caps and diminishing returns for stacking max resources. And it was expected that you would choose DK to tank, Templar for healer, and NB/Sorc were the damage dealing classes.

Wardens seem like the operate on a different plane because they do: they and necromancers are the only classes designed to fit ESO's current game design.

NylAR

VaranisArano wrote: »

Wardens are as strong as they are because they were the first class designed to actually play according to the mag/stam divide that developed over time, and after it became clear that players wanted to be be able to play effective tanks, healers, and DDs on every class.

The four base classes were designed back when ZOS expected everyone to use magicka for class skills, with stamina and weapons being mainly for movement and flavor. There were caps and diminishing returns for stacking max resources. And it was expected that you would choose DK to tank, Templar for healer, and NB/Sorc were the damage dealing classes.

Wardens seem like the operate on a different plane because they do: they and necromancers are the only classes designed to fit ESO's current game design.

Sounds like the original 4 classes could use an overhaul or revamp

Pauwer

Imho right now nb is way better than warden. On stam and mag.

robpr

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

That's also true- the only skill in the Warden toolkit that I don't see used is Nature's Grasp. All classes deserve to have that level of variety.

People use it in Sunspire PVE and in PVP to keep up the speed with the rest of the zerg if their mount is still slow xD