Is it acceptable to play a healer anymore?

Lerozain

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

in my own experience, to be an effective healer limits your own dps potential (which in many cases isn't enough to pick up the slack enough anyway)

My magplar healer is setup specifically for dungeons. Running Thief mundus, SPC body for major courage, Medusa front bar and Master resto, two 1-piece crit monster. I can squeeze out about 45-50k dps (CP is allocated like a dps build). In some cases while running randoms, I end up doing similar or more damage than the dedicated dps.

It's easier to get away with this setup if you know mechs well enough to anticipate the need for heals (e.g. ice add phase in SCP, machine gun in ICP, etc)

fred4

I thought every healer was fake. Then I discovered I had Pale Order slotted. Oops.

TwiceBornStar

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I'm just curious since everyone seems to think that 3 DPS and 1 tank are needed. I only really want to play healers in group content but I want to know if I am actually needed.

You are definitely needed. I'm incorporating plenty of self-healing morphs into my builds these days, because it's actually becoming something of a rare occurrence to recieve a bit of healing. If I had to guesstimate I'd say that for every ten random groups, there's one healer who makes me happy. Sometimes two.

For example, it happens quite often that I'm finding myself catching a lot of aggro, not sure why but it happens too often! (Maybe I'm too trigger-happy?) It's because of this I've decided to sacrifice some DPS in order to increase survivability. (Because lying face-down on the floor gets boring quick!) So it wouldn't surprise me at all if other people have had similar ideas by now, but back to my original point..

You, as the healer, may think you're no longer needed when you see me doing trashfights, but I can assure you I appreciate a proper burst of healing every now and then, because during some fights it's pretty stressful to stay alive *and* deal proper damage at the same time. (I'm a bit reckless sometimes and prefer melee!)

You're needed and definitely appreciated. Don't let anyone else tell you differently.

Keep up the good work!

TwiceBornStar

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

I'm definitely a DPS-minded player, so I could take it personally, but I just wanted to add that I couldn't agree more with that sentiment!

*high five*

Fennwitty

I think this is a "PUG" vs. "Not PUG" distinction.

Very significant also the level of content.

Top end players frequently say things like "healers aren't needed" when they often mean "healers aren't needed for my group and the folks I run with because we kill everything super fast and stay out of the red."

The statement that "healers aren't needed" has been greatly misunderstood by a lot of the playerbase who aren't truly end-game. Lots of players read online "healers aren't needed" so they accept it as fact -- and proceed to die repeatedly to mechanics. Or spend twice as long doing a dungeon than necessary because the three damage dealers are spending their time dead or on the defensive instead of attacking.

Random normal, in a group of skilled players, absolutely you can run with 3 or 4 competent damage dealers. Especially base game dungeons. If the group kills everything in minutes then there's not much time for a healer to keep up consistent healing and buffs.

If you primarily do normal dungeons, or vet base game dungeons, probably a hybrid healer/dps is more useful for that. Because by you doing more damage, you skip mechanics and dead enemies don't do any damage.

If you're doing vet dlc or trials ... most groups will want a "real" healer. Killing the enemies before they can attack you is no longer possible when bosses have a bajillion hit points and mechanics are almost guaranteed to happen based on health percentages.

Fixes ZoS could make would be updating older dungeons to new standards, having combat be more dynamic, smarter enemies that don't stand directly in stacked AOEs or which apply more debuffs ... but the approach they've taken for now seems to be "nerf player damage so fights take longer." Which in a way will make healers more useful because longer fights are the ones you need resources sustain help on.

ForeverJenn

Healers are good when you random a fake tank that has 18k health and trying to do a norm dlc. Healers are good for trials, vets and HMs. If you get a boring norm just equip a spammable and do some dps. No biggie. That's what I do.

But as stated by many, you should never just heal. Buff/debuff management is actually a thing you should be focusing on. Ppl who think you don't get resources from a healer are idiots. Play what you wanna play and screw speedsters who prob aren't doing as much dps as they think.

kargen27

For most players in the game a healer is needed. For some a healer might not be needed but a healer makes things easier. These two categories make up a vast majority of the player population. There are groups that get through harder content with no healer just fine but they are not the norm.
Some players assume three DPS is quicker and don't take a healer because they can finish the content. I am going to point out one example of this happening.

A guild I am in we used to run Dragonstar Arena often. After a while a group I ran with (I heal) decided to go with 3DPS one tank. My DPS wasn't up to the task then so they picked up another player for the DPS. When Blackrose Prison came out they started running that with the 3DPS one tank. They could get through it but would struggle. One night they couldn't find a 4th so I offered to go on my healer. They wanted a third DPS but nobody in guild wanted to join so they took me.
After we were done they admitted the run went much more smooth and might have been quicker with a healer. I provided buffs along with making sure they stayed alive. They could adjust their bars to be pure DPS without need to slot self heals and other things that take away from concentrating on pure damage. At their level of play they didn't need a healer but a healer made things easier. I've also been in groups where it was obvious I wasn't helping much at all. They didn't need a healer and my DPS even when switching out gear and skills wasn't contributing much.

Basically a long winded post to say most players in the harder content will benefit from a healer being in group in my experience.

AcadianPaladin

My healplar favors spells that combine damage with support, and specifically, slots three of them: Orbs (damage morph - I got plenty of heals) for dps + resources, Shards for dps + resources, Reflective light for dps + snare and minor sorcery. The only pure, 'selfish' damage skill she slots is Sweeps. The rest is of her slotted skills are classic healer support/heal/debuff skills.

Focusing on heal/support for her group, she generates 10-12 'incidental' dps. Vs a 3M dummy and totally focusing on damage, she can generate up to 22k dps.

LettuceBrain

I don't understand why everyone is suggesting a healer/dd hybrid, yet it is my understanding that all healers have a damage back bar? And I get that it isn't just healing I need to do, I slot buff skills as well, but I am still leveling right now so I mainly have heal skills for the time being. I think of "healer" as a blanket term for healing/buffing support role basically. I honestly didn't expect this many people to say that healers are pretty useful. I half expected to get attacked tbh (though that could break forum rules).

Wandering_Immigrant

Yes but it helps to keep an open mind as to what being a healer actually entails, your role is to keep people alive and to buff them. In easier content with a decent group keeping people alive might be as simple as throwing out an occasional radiating regeneration and keeping up combat prayer. That leaves a lot of downtime and a good team mate never stands around doing nothing so this is where contributing some damage of your own becomes worthwhile. A less experienced or bad group in that same content might force you to spend all your time and resources spamming burst heals in order to keep them alive.

My favorite thing about playing the healer role is that it's sort of the flex position. Your role is to support the group. For squishies that stand in red that means lots of healing, for people capable of dishing out a lot damage it means buffs and synergies, and in groups with low DPS you might be best off just dealing damage yourself. I even have a stam healer who front bars 1h&S with a bow back bar, and when I get a group with a fake tank I put puncture on her front bar and bombard on her back bar to hold mobs in place.

If you go into healing thinking you're just going to be standing in the back row casting heals like in other MMOs you'll be disappointed and feel useless at times. But if you go in with the understanding that you're there to provide all types of support and are capable of adapting to a group's needs to do so you'll never feel useless. You might even enjoy the flexibility that mindset allows for.

FlopsyPrince

They wouldn't be less useful if their DPS hit like the NPC healers!

Most of those NPC healers hit harder than NPC DPSers!

AcadianPaladin

@LettuceBrain you've brought up some valid concerns with this thread and its earned plenty of helpful/insightful responses.

Like most healers, mine has a resto staff on one bar and a destro staff on the other bar. The main reason she puts a destro staff on one bar is for access to Elemental Drain (the only destro skill she slots). She prefers lightning because literally every skill she uses that does damage does AoE damage which gets boosted by the lightning staff.

Agenericname

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone is suggesting a healer/dd hybrid, yet it is my understanding that all healers have a damage back bar? And I get that it isn't just healing I need to do, I slot buff skills as well, but I am still leveling right now so I mainly have heal skills for the time being. I think of "healer" as a blanket term for healing/buffing support role basically. I honestly didn't expect this many people to say that healers are pretty useful. I half expected to get attacked tbh (though that could break forum rules).

In higher end content, most healers arent using their destro bar as much as a means of damage as they are for the utility.

Of the roles in ESO's group content, healers are the role with the most flexibility. Their necessity in 4 person content is variable. Good healers know when and how to adapt. If you were in trials or some of the vet DLCs, you would focus more on healing and support and your destro bar would only be there for its utility.

In a normal dungeons, you could end up with 2 DDs who are relatively weak and shift more toward using it for damage.

Adapt to the content and the needs of your group.

HyekAr

As far as I understand from guys from my guild, ppl make healers mostly for auto-healing

fred4

vDSA is actually my prime example as to why you may not want a healer. To this day, the only way I know to finish the final boss is by keeping him at the door, while the tank takes away the adds. I'm a PvPer who only goes for the weapons. It's a complete DPS race. The single biggest problem I have had in this fight, with multiple groups, is a lack of DPS. There may be other ways of doing it, but as a PvPer and someone who enjoys the solo arenas from time to time, I am most comfortable with self-healing, self-sustaining builds. These builds include more defense than a typical DD at the expense of a better attack rotation. I struggle to reach anything beyond 25K DPS, unless AOE. I don't make a separate build, but run my solo arena build. It seems to be the same for my friends, as I've done vDSA as a DD and as a tank with much the same problem. This is why, perhaps, the 3 DD setup suits me best for that arena.

Odovacar

Absolutely it is. Especially when you're running a random group. If someone wants to run 3dd over the traditional 1/2/1 that's almost always going to be premade with friends/guildies. I don't think I've ran my daily random and said damn why does this healer need to be a healer why didn't you fake queue as a DPS...

I like to think they appreciate my/our presence as a healer in a PUG because you just never know what you're going to get and we HELP lots like provide nice unselfish sets that buff uptimes, increase your DPS while debuffing enemies/bosses and oh yeah doing nicely added DPS in-between, etc. Good healers are for sure needed in PvE and PvP.

Although, I've logged out and switched from running my healer (I generally always run my daily random on a healer or tank for quick queues) to a DD to compensate for low DPS a few times over the years... but that was with a logical PUG group understanding they met a critical DPS check. Last time I remember this was on vLoM tree boss as the DD's couldn't get it down in time before the stranglers started spitting crazily...anyhow you know what I mean.

Healers, we love you all!

Fennwitty

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I don't understand why everyone is suggesting a healer/dd hybrid, yet it is my understanding that all healers have a damage back bar? And I get that it isn't just healing I need to do, I slot buff skills as well, but I am still leveling right now so I mainly have heal skills for the time being. I think of "healer" as a blanket term for healing/buffing support role basically. I honestly didn't expect this many people to say that healers are pretty useful. I half expected to get attacked tbh (though that could break forum rules).

Most builds do have a destruction staff bar, but it's not just that.

Instead of Elemental Blockade, you might use the morph Unstable Wall of Elements. You might use a fire staff over lightning. Or double destro staves and rely on class skills to give emergency heals.

Instead of pure assistance sets like Worm's Raiments you use Mother's Sorrow for instance.

FrancisCrawford

TwiceBornStar wrote: »

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I'm just curious since everyone seems to think that 3 DPS and 1 tank are needed. I only really want to play healers in group content but I want to know if I am actually needed.

You are definitely needed. I'm incorporating plenty of self-healing morphs into my builds these days, because it's actually becoming something of a rare occurrence to recieve a bit of healing. If I had to guesstimate I'd say that for every ten random groups, there's one healer who makes me happy. Sometimes two.

For example, it happens quite often that I'm finding myself catching a lot of aggro, not sure why but it happens too often! (Maybe I'm too trigger-happy?) It's because of this I've decided to sacrifice some DPS in order to increase survivability. (Because lying face-down on the floor gets boring quick!) So it wouldn't surprise me at all if other people have had similar ideas by now, but back to my original point..

You, as the healer, may think you're no longer needed when you see me doing trashfights, but I can assure you I appreciate a proper burst of healing every now and then, because during some fights it's pretty stressful to stay alive *and* deal proper damage at the same time. (I'm a bit reckless sometimes and prefer melee!)

You're needed and definitely appreciated. Don't let anyone else tell you differently.

Keep up the good work!

I've noticed that most of my Earthgore procs occur when a DD goes Leroying into a trash pack.

Perhaps we've grouped together. Do you play on PC/NA?

AcadianPaladin

There is only so much you can build into a character. My healer almost ignores crit because, while crit is great for dps averaging out over time, when she needs to heal someone in trouble, she really needs the full potential right now - not a 'chance' of getting a crit heal. By almost ignoring crit though, it allows her to stack spell damage (which helps heals + damage), along with magicka and mag regen. In fact, by building the way she does and specing for heals, her 'regular' heals are bursty enough to forego needing a classic burst heal (like Breath of Life) and slot something else.

Just one healer's view of things.

kargen27

fred4 wrote: »

vDSA is actually my prime example as to why you may not want a healer. To this day, the only way I know to finish the final boss is by keeping him at the door, while the tank takes away the adds. I'm a PvPer who only goes for the weapons. It's a complete DPS race. The single biggest problem I have had in this fight, with multiple groups, is a lack of DPS. There may be other ways of doing it, but as a PvPer and someone who enjoys the solo arenas from time to time, I am most comfortable with self-healing, self-sustaining builds. These builds include more defense than a typical DD at the expense of a better attack rotation. I struggle to reach anything beyond 25K DPS, unless AOE. I don't make a separate build, but run my solo arena build. It seems to be the same for my friends, as I've done vDSA as a DD and as a tank with much the same problem. This is why, perhaps, the 3 DD setup suits me best for that arena.

A group I used to do this with did it with me healing. I slotted a taunt so I could keep the boss at the door and let the two DPS concentrate on full on DPS. That final fight is easier though with three DPS.

CleymenZero

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I'm just curious since everyone seems to think that 3 DPS and 1 tank are needed. I only really want to play healers in group content but I want to know if I am actually needed.

Absolutely unacceptable especially in Kyne's Aegis Hard Mode execute.

FantasticFreddie

Is it acceptable to play a healer? Idgaf, I want to play a healer so I do.
That said, adapt to the hybridization of the role. Bring buffs for your team, debuff the boss, light attack, etc.
Don't just heal and you'll be fine.

LettuceBrain

CleymenZero wrote: »

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I'm just curious since everyone seems to think that 3 DPS and 1 tank are needed. I only really want to play healers in group content but I want to know if I am actually needed.

Absolutely unacceptable especially in Kyne's Aegis Hard Mode execute.

I don't know if I should feel insulted or laugh.

madrab73

DPS needs cut in half so PVE groups can't burn through all mechanics

madrab73

Or double damage from enemies in PVE

ClawOfTheTwoMoons

They are very much so. Don't let clowns tell you otherwise. A very small portion of this community can do content without one but love to say they're useless.

khyrkat

Dunno... but I feel needed. Those rare times I queue as dd I welcome healer behind my back so I can focus on doing my job instead of self-healing. Also resources gained back, invaluable. I never heard complaints towards me as a healer except for one time the tank asked me to switch to dd and I did and he died pretty fast. Asked me to switch back fast.
It's not only about healing. Buffs, additional damage, boss debuffs, this all counts towards healer role and I like it. I come from game when I had little to none chances to help dps do their dps as I had only pure healing spells and one damage resistance buff in my arsenal and here it's really fun.

etchedpixels

IMHO it depends a lot on the group and content. A typical group with a fake healer can walk most non DLC dungeons but the moment they hit some of the DLC like Frostvault it turns into a mess.

If you run dressing room on PC you can easily have two set ups and switch once you see what the rest of the group are like. With a weaker group or a weak tank you run your strong healing sets, with a stronger group you run your damage sets so your healing may be weaker but your DPS is a bit lower than a pure DPS toon (at least until you've got a lot of CP and dressing room gets modded to switch CP stars)

For easier stuff you can run mother's sorrow and other dd sets or a mother's sorrow/winter's respite combo and stack your bars mostly with offensive skills and run a damage focussed monster helm like ilambris. Even the back bar you can stack with damage and buff skills except for a bit of healing. On hard content or weaker groupthe same toon in a pair of healing sets and healing helm has a lot more heals stacked on the healing bar, and a different more support focussed mix on the front bar.

Winter's respite I particularly like for the strong groups because you can usually provide enough heals in the right places for a reasonable dungeon group just from spamming unstable wall (plus lotus on a warden) and not need to bar swap away from damage dealing all the time.

For easier content right now I prefer a combo healer/tank and 3DDs one of whom is carrying some kind of panic button heal/shield (barrier or the warden ultimate). A magtank with battalion defender/hitis or similar can provide a lot of group healing and buffs in such cases and the dd (preferably ranged) carrying the ultimate can hit the panic button if the tank screws up and it gets a bit 'interesting'

xv1_me

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I'm just curious since everyone seems to think that 3 DPS and 1 tank are needed. I only really want to play healers in group content but I want to know if I am actually needed.

nah healers and tanks arent needed for 99% of this game

ForeverJenn

A good healer can observe the failings of a random pug and carry a fake tank or low dps. I do it all the time. I spend more times in radom normals rounding up mobs, aoeing or dodge rolling away from an untaunted boss. Is it ideal? No. But because I can heal in any content and familiar with what is lacking in a group, I'm never not needed.

And if the group is optimized for high dps, and the tank is unnecessary, I make sure my buffs and resource generating abilities are up as much as possible. Pull mobs back to dps and Throw in some jabs when I can.