Something has to be done about daily random grouping and people not willing to work with the team

HowellQagan

Edit: Changed title, it might not work this way but still there has to be something to get out players unwilling to cooperate with their random group from the pool.
Original title: "There needs to be a solo daily random dungeon option"

Seriously, if there were an option to start a daily random dungeon solo, or not full team, it would solve the problem of getting the kind of people who just want to rush through the dungeon for daily random reward (since they can solo it) into groups who queued for a specific dungeon because they want to complete it the normal way.

Everybody wins here. Rushers get weeded out of groups who don't want to rush, and rushers finally get to do it in their own pace.

Hexi

You can't solo every normal dungeon in the game though, and DLC dungeons have pretty beefed up HP pools even on normal so it would take a long time.

OutLaw_Nynx

What’s the normal way? Taking an hour for a fifteen minute dungeon?

Pelirockjo

I swear I've seen this samr topic just a few days ago. And as it's been said several times, random group finder ia random. You get what you get, and if that's not ok with you, you can always ask guildies or in zone for like minded players.

stybbe17b16_ESO

Or they could separate matchmaking between people that have completed the dungeon and those who don't. New players get to share the fresh experience and the other half know none need to "do the quest" or being their first time.

AcadianPaladin

Unfortunately, even with high level players, low level players, role-player questers, and speed runners all mixed together to make the pool as big as possible, queue times are a problem. More filtering of pugs to group 'like' players together leads to longer queue times for everyone.

Amottica

Using the GF for a random run is a common way for MMORPGs to help ensure there are players in the queue to form a group. Using that same incentive for a "solo" run would defeat that purpose.

I like running with my guild when I am doing something more challenging or want to slow down to see a story I had not seen.

Hanokihs

Pelirockjo wrote: »

I swear I've seen this samr topic just a few days ago. And as it's been said several times, random group finder ia random. You get what you get, and if that's not ok with you, you can always ask guildies or in zone for like minded players.

Correct me if I'm wrong - you don't get the daily reward that way. This isn't a matter of "I want to do dungeons but not these dungeons with those people." It's a matter of, "How do I get my daily loot bonus in the least painful way possible?"

Most people who use the group finder just want the loot, and the rest just don't feel like coordinating. Unfortunately, both camps are lumped together, meaning a lot of people end up with a bad experience. There's no way to reconcile this without having separate queues (one for quick-run, one for exploration), but having separate queues for things tends to create nightmares in this game. DPS roles already have to wait an exceptionally long time; it would probably double or triple (or bleed into Tank/Healer roles) if the pool was split.

danno8

Hanokihs wrote: »

Pelirockjo wrote: »

I swear I've seen this samr topic just a few days ago. And as it's been said several times, random group finder ia random. You get what you get, and if that's not ok with you, you can always ask guildies or in zone for like minded players.

Correct me if I'm wrong - you don't get the daily reward that way. This isn't a matter of "I want to do dungeons but not these dungeons with those people." It's a matter of, "How do I get my daily loot bonus in the least painful way possible?"

Pretty sure you can create a group then queue for a random normal and your whole four man pre-made will be transported inside for the dungeon.

Hanokihs

danno8 wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Pelirockjo wrote: »

I swear I've seen this samr topic just a few days ago. And as it's been said several times, random group finder ia random. You get what you get, and if that's not ok with you, you can always ask guildies or in zone for like minded players.

Correct me if I'm wrong - you don't get the daily reward that way. This isn't a matter of "I want to do dungeons but not these dungeons with those people." It's a matter of, "How do I get my daily loot bonus in the least painful way possible?"

Pretty sure you can create a group then queue for a random normal and your whole four man pre-made will be transported inside for the dungeon.

I've had experiences where the whole thing hangs and you never get in anywhere. It also adds more pain for people who don't already have a running group or guild, because they have to coordinate with strangers and then hope the system works correctly to let them in. It's not really the most efficient or effective way.

zvavi

The reward for the daily is because you are helping fill spots for those who queue for specific dungeons...

Arunei

Hanokihs wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Pelirockjo wrote: »

I swear I've seen this samr topic just a few days ago. And as it's been said several times, random group finder ia random. You get what you get, and if that's not ok with you, you can always ask guildies or in zone for like minded players.

Correct me if I'm wrong - you don't get the daily reward that way. This isn't a matter of "I want to do dungeons but not these dungeons with those people." It's a matter of, "How do I get my daily loot bonus in the least painful way possible?"

Pretty sure you can create a group then queue for a random normal and your whole four man pre-made will be transported inside for the dungeon.

I've had experiences where the whole thing hangs and you never get in anywhere. It also adds more pain for people who don't already have a running group or guild, because they have to coordinate with strangers and then hope the system works correctly to let them in. It's not really the most efficient or effective way.

Unfortunately, making your own group IS the most effective and efficient way, because then you know exactly what to expect, as everyone's goals are going to be the same. It might not be ideal but it certainly is more efficient than sitting in the queue and then getting paired with three other people who might each want something different from the dungeon.

Also as much as it sucks, people also need to keep in mind that the point of random dailies and part of the LFG tool's purpose is to fill partial groups for specific dungeons. A random daily solo queue would defeat that point. Plus as others have said, there are certain dungeons a person can't solo, such as ones with mechanics that require two or more people.

Also let's keep in mind they're lowering PvE group sizes because of "performance". I'm not sure what sort of impact having dozens of single-player dungeons would be, but I doubt it would be something ZOS would want to encourage if groups of 24 are getting too much for the game to handle. Sure, plenty of people solo dungeons for stuff like gear as it is, but if people could also get Transmute crystals and exp? There'd be a surge of people doing these things, and that would definitely have SOME sort of impact on the game. They already did changes to how dungeon instancing works in the past iirc, because it was causing stress on the servers.

jssriot

Kind of missing the point of the random norm rewards being incentive to get people to group for dungeons, hello.

ZOS didn't design dungeons to be for solo players. They are the main PVE *group* content of the game, in a game that has a ton of solo PVE content, and ZOS has repeatedly made steps to discourage soloing them from becoming norm.

Iccotak

HowellQagan wrote: »

Seriously, if there were an option to start a daily random dungeon solo, or not full team, it would solve the problem of getting the kind of people who just want to rush through the dungeon for daily random reward (since they can solo it) into groups who queued for a specific dungeon because they want to complete it the normal way.

Everybody wins here. Rushers get weeded out of groups who don't want to rush, and rushers finally get to do it in their own pace.

If you want certain rewards or to play certain activities then you gotta play the way it was designed and possibly play with other people.

If you want people who aren't rushers then play with members of your guild.

If ZOS wants to do something about the DPS queue time then they need to do 2 things.
1. Make Support roles more appealing to the general player base so then people actually play them more often
2. Punish players who immediately leave a dungeon, ditching their group after getting there. If they are going to waste other peoples time then it makes sense that they get an extensive timer.

Hanokihs

Arunei wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Hanokihs wrote: »

Pelirockjo wrote: »

I swear I've seen this samr topic just a few days ago. And as it's been said several times, random group finder ia random. You get what you get, and if that's not ok with you, you can always ask guildies or in zone for like minded players.

Correct me if I'm wrong - you don't get the daily reward that way. This isn't a matter of "I want to do dungeons but not these dungeons with those people." It's a matter of, "How do I get my daily loot bonus in the least painful way possible?"

Pretty sure you can create a group then queue for a random normal and your whole four man pre-made will be transported inside for the dungeon.

I've had experiences where the whole thing hangs and you never get in anywhere. It also adds more pain for people who don't already have a running group or guild, because they have to coordinate with strangers and then hope the system works correctly to let them in. It's not really the most efficient or effective way.

Unfortunately, making your own group IS the most effective and efficient way, because then you know exactly what to expect, as everyone's goals are going to be the same. It might not be ideal but it certainly is more efficient than sitting in the queue and then getting paired with three other people who might each want something different from the dungeon.

Also as much as it sucks, people also need to keep in mind that the point of random dailies and part of the LFG tool's purpose is to fill partial groups for specific dungeons. A random daily solo queue would defeat that point. Plus as others have said, there are certain dungeons a person can't solo, such as ones with mechanics that require two or more people.

Also let's keep in mind they're lowering PvE group sizes because of "performance". I'm not sure what sort of impact having dozens of single-player dungeons would be, but I doubt it would be something ZOS would want to encourage if groups of 24 are getting too much for the game to handle. Sure, plenty of people solo dungeons for stuff like gear as it is, but if people could also get Transmute crystals and exp? There'd be a surge of people doing these things, and that would definitely have SOME sort of impact on the game. They already did changes to how dungeon instancing works in the past iirc, because it was causing stress on the servers.

I mean, you're not wrong about the intentions of the system, but those intentions don't tend to link up with player experiences. I'm just saying, based on the fact that everyone has seen this type of thread at least 88 times this month (not even including the ones about fake roles), the devs' intentions don't link up with the way players want to operate. Which is their prerogative. But it's still a problem, and one they invented for themselves, with the way they implemented these features and their rewards.

Making your own group isn't effective or efficient if you don't already have a group. Full stop. If it was as simple as "ask in chat," then we wouldn't need the group/dungeon finder tool in the first place. If instead you want to argue that the dungeon finder is meant to find dungeons, and isn't necessarily required to find people to fill roles, then it also makes little sense to claim that the rewards exist as a means to entice people to fill missing group roles. The tool serves both purposes, but does both of them badly, because it isn't actually geared to prioritize either feature.

If they want people to run content over and over again so the game looks like players are engaged, they could just tie the reward to the first dungeon a player completes in a day, regardless of how it's completed; just mail a separate loot chest and be done with it. If they instead want to allow players with partial groups to find missing pieces and link up with each other, there should be a way to combine likeminded individuals, so we have fewer people rushing and fewer people lying about their role to get in. But like I said earlier, splitting queues tends to lead to disaster; I fully expect that we'd end up with dozens of tanks/healers standing around doing nothing, while teams of 4 MagSorc/Templar DDs just blast through everything.

And ultimately, they shouldn't be punishing players for their own broken infrastructure - regardless of which direction they're doing it. They shouldn't make RPers suffer because the servers can't handle having 24 people hanging out in a group, they shouldn't be making PVPers suffer because they can't figure out the fundamentals of making attacks work, and they shouldn't make solo- or quick-runners suffer because they can't handle having a bunch of single-player instances of dungeons open at the same time. This is The Elder Scrolls. You can't tout "play like you want," if an increasingly large number of people can't actually play how they want.

Ceejengine

Agreed. Especially with companions in Blackwood.

I'm betting that if companions take off and players end up with 4+ available companions, we will see an ability to queue with just your companions.

I hope so at least.

Malkiv

I've always been a proponent of "Story-Mode Dungeons" that are run solo by players wanting to crawl through dungeons. The bosses drop green non-set gear, but the player can complete the dungeon quest. I mean, what - are you going to gate-keep a single skill point and a single random piece of blue dungeon gear you can only earn once per toon?

EDIT: I just realized I posted this in the incorrect thread. My point still stands, but it doesn't fit in with this thread. Haha. As far as this thread topic, I would only support a daily random reward for solo if it were a reduced reward since you are not actively helping fill partials, or replace lost teammates.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

I just wander into them and play. As I only use my own stuff, I don't care about the crappy loot, I sell it, as my stuff is usually better in any case.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Nothing stops you from soloing a dungeon. The rewards are there to encourage people to play together. If you don’t want to do that, well, solo away but don’t expect an extra reward.

Malkiv

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Nothing stops you from soloing a dungeon. The rewards are there to encourage people to play together. If you don’t want to do that, well, solo away but don’t expect an extra reward.

This is the largest fallacy that is projected when it comes to the GF tool. The reward is not to encourage people to play together. Playing together is already the point of group content. The reward is to encourage people to queue randomly to fill partials, fill as a replacement, or put together a group of other solo queue'rs. The system its self is designed to help players find groups; they already know they're playing with other people.

HowellQagan

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

What’s the normal way? Taking an hour for a fifteen minute dungeon?

@OutLaw_Nynx Careful, don't cut yourself on that edge. Idk if you actually read and understood what I wrote because i was talking about people who queue for a specific dungeon, who would still be put together with random queue players.
Obviously there are people who never did it before and maybe would like to know the mechanics, and complete the story quest.
Someone who just wants to farm the specific dungeon for sets will not queue for it, rather just solo or duo with guildmates or whatever, so I'm not talking about those people.

HowellQagan

Hexi wrote: »

You can't solo every normal dungeon in the game though, and DLC dungeons have pretty beefed up HP pools even on normal so it would take a long time.

@Hexi Fair. Another solution would be to create a queue that's specifically for rushers, it would completely ignore selected dungeon roles. It could put together 4 dds without having to queue as a fake role and rush it all they want, while others who want to read the books, do the quest, whatever, would use the role-specific queue.

HowellQagan

jssriot wrote: »

Kind of missing the point of the random norm rewards being incentive to get people to group for dungeons, hello.

ZOS didn't design dungeons to be for solo players. They are the main PVE *group* content of the game, in a game that has a ton of solo PVE content, and ZOS has repeatedly made steps to discourage soloing them from becoming norm.

@jssriot @Oreyn_Bearclaw I understand but it's clearly not working because lots of people queue ONLY for the rewards, people who do not want to work together with others in the group.

OutLaw_Nynx

HowellQagan wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

What’s the normal way? Taking an hour for a fifteen minute dungeon?

@OutLaw_Nynx Careful, don't cut yourself on that edge. Idk if you actually read and understood what I wrote because i was talking about people who queue for a specific dungeon, who would still be put together with random queue players.
Obviously there are people who never did it before and maybe would like to know the mechanics, and complete the story quest.
Someone who just wants to farm the specific dungeon for sets will not queue for it, rather just solo or duo with guildmates or whatever, so I'm not talking about those people.

Okay... why are you not just grabbing another guild mate instead of being at the mercy of group finder. Also, I’m fine. No edge here

SammyKhajit

There should be a group finder for speed runners. Then they can race to their little hearts’ content.

Stormfyre

stybbe17b16_ESO wrote: »

Or they could separate matchmaking between people that have completed the dungeon and those who don't. New players get to share the fresh experience and the other half know none need to "do the quest" or being their first time.

No, no and no.. the queus are waay too long as it is for some class types.

Supreme_Atromancer

I agree that fragmenting the queueing population further is a pretty bad idea, if some of the queue times are anything to go by.

@OutLaw_Nynx I've never, since the groupfinder was implemented, had a pug take an hour to complete a random normal. Your comment was being called out for its unnecessary over-exaggeration and trollishness. The actual issue is that far more typically, slowing down might cost a speedrunner literally a couple more minutes.

And that's not to say that speedrunners are the only ones at fault. NO one wants to compromise. There are people trying to enforce roles when honestly there are many situations where its completely unnecessary to do so.

The crux of the issue seems to be that no one wants to compromise, and we expect ZOS to fix social issues with programming solutions. With the amount of snarkiness people are spraying at each other all the time over every single issue, you could program to satisfy every whim and people will still be inconsiderate, impatient and angry. But while everyone has a chip on their shoulders, no amount of advanced group-finding solution is going to stave off that MMOs have a bad name because people tend to act like jerks with impugnity, and have no tolerance or patience for anything.

HowellQagan

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

HowellQagan wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

What’s the normal way? Taking an hour for a fifteen minute dungeon?

@OutLaw_Nynx Careful, don't cut yourself on that edge. Idk if you actually read and understood what I wrote because i was talking about people who queue for a specific dungeon, who would still be put together with random queue players.
Obviously there are people who never did it before and maybe would like to know the mechanics, and complete the story quest.
Someone who just wants to farm the specific dungeon for sets will not queue for it, rather just solo or duo with guildmates or whatever, so I'm not talking about those people.

Okay... why are you not just grabbing another guild mate instead of being at the mercy of group finder. Also, I’m fine. No edge here

@OutLaw_Nynx Well, I do. Not guildmate but I don't bother with daily random or any type of queueing anymore, it's not worth the frustration. I just find people to do dungeons with on zone chat or whatever. But this shouldn't be the case, we have a feature that should help people do dungeons and instead it can be totally useless at times due to long queues and after all that waiting you get people who don't want to work as a group at all.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

The crux of the issue seems to be that no one wants to compromise, and we expect ZOS to fix social issues with programming solutions.

@Supreme_Atromancer Well yes, but how else can you fix it if people aren't listening to each other? Maybe they should just remove the group finder altogether. Let anarchy rule dungeoneering.

Grimm_Cortex

Really !!!

I play this game for 4 years now, and some of the content can be rush to save everyone time !

You are not happy with people who know so well the content that they start to rush and pull 2 or 3, even 4 groups of pnjs to rush.

So now you asked dev to do something about it... That's the second topic about it the first one asked to punish people who don't have the right role, now this ...

And about learn to play you part, and enjoy when someone know the system so well that's actually saving your time to play more and win more ....

And when it's fit you, you asked us to carry you in vet trial .. My god !

mobicera

Something was done.
We were given 10 transmute crystals at the end of a random normal, putting it ahead of pvp for crystal farming.
Which creates an incentive to rush that anyone can easily see, yes even zos...
The dev's are telling me to zoom zoom zoom, lol.

Rowjoh

Most of the base game dungeons can and should be speed run on normal in under 5 minutes if doing a random normal.

If someone happens to be doing the quest then that only adds a minute or two at most and most players are happy to go along with that especially if flagged in group chat.

Killing all mobs/bosses is now desirable for champion point progression, so doesn't make sense to skip the XP.

so everyone ought to be happy