No Time Gating please

geschmonz

I would like to suggest to get rid of any kind of time gating when it is about questing content. Because time gating itself will just simply not work, as people could unsub at the start of a new story chapter and return at its end when all time gates are gone. While ZOS probably hopes people will stay over the whole period of subsequent content unlocks.

I myself will quit every time i come to a content end. I will not sub any further month when the upcoming gameplay is time gates but already implemented. So why should'nt all questing content be available once it is fully implemented? South elswyr was long in the game before it was unlocked, so i do not really get why any content which is already available at story chapter start is being held back.

So please, kind devs, think about getting rid of such artificial measurements.

Thanks.

VaranisArano

I'm confused. Are you asking ZOS to release the Q4 DLC at the same time as the Chapter?

trackdemon5512

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm confused. Are you asking ZOS to release the Q4 DLC at the same time as the Chapter?

Yeah I’m massively confused here.

@geschmonz your example of Southern Elsweyr makes no sense. When Northern Elsweyr released Southern Elsweyr wasn’t even close to being done.

I mean the developer has to have time to actually develop content for the game.

FluffWit

Maybe he means stuff like crafting motifs that don't come out for weeks after a dlc drops, what they did with the structural furniture blueprints the last two dlcs etc.

colossalvoids

The only timegate I see and hate with passion is a motif release one. Half a year can pass before we see one particular motif starts dropping, killing all the interested with this wait for a thing that is already there but unobtainable for zero reason (yeah they want us to revisit but it could be done in a way better fashion)

Veinblood1965

Maybe he's talking about the Summerset time skill points?

geschmonz

Well, time gating means any kind of content that is available, but artificially gated behind a schedule. I think content should be fully available once it is released. It is just that time gating does not work.

Fennwitty

If the idea is that ZoS has done a lot of their work in advance and it's ready to go, they're just holding back, I think that's incorrect.

Deadline to deadline, and then patches to fix.

Elsonso

geschmonz wrote: »

Well, time gating means any kind of content that is available, but artificially gated behind a schedule. I think content should be fully available once it is released. It is just that time gating does not work.

I think you misunderstand how ZOS works. They are working on Chapters and DLC right up to when they are released. They don't make the entire year, then parcel it out a little each quarter.

trackdemon5512

FluffWit wrote: »

Maybe he means stuff like crafting motifs that don't come out for weeks after a dlc drops, what they did with the structural furniture blueprints the last two dlcs etc.

@colossalvoids Im personally fine with this. The newer zones remain active long after they’re initially released now. Yeah it could be seen as an artificial measure to keep players subbed but at the same time new players that enter a zone aren’t faced with it being empty a month after it drops.

With Elsweyr and Markarth this allowed for Dragons and Harrowstorms respectively to be placed in the zones and that players wouldn’t wait around for days to get stuff done. It’s a good compromise.

Xebov

I think hes talking about things like motifs, riding and research. Compagnion raport will be time gated too.

_Zathras_

geschmonz wrote: »

Well, time gating means any kind of content that is available, but artificially gated behind a schedule. I think content should be fully available once it is released. It is just that time gating does not work.

By any chance, have you recently come from WoW? If so, I do know precisely what you are talking about, having returned recently from spending 7 months over there. They aren't managing their newest xpac, Shadowlands, very well. Part of that is the very staggered storyline. They have also time gated many other aspects of progression, which has caused its fair share of fury among the players.

ESO doesn't do that.

We get chunks of new content which has a beginning, a middle, and an end ..in 4 segments. Like a mini series for a year. It's not like sitting down to watch a movie, and having it stop 20 minutes into it, then waiting a month to see 20 more minutes of that same movie. That's what WoW does.

But, you can't really get out of releasing content a bit at a time. Star Wars wasn't released all on one day in its entirety. Neither was the Harry Potter series.

However, I do think you are referring to the time gating that Ion is a fan of in WoW. In which case I agree with you on how you feel about that. But, again, that (thankfully) isn't what happens here.

geschmonz

_Zathras_ wrote: »

ESO doesn't do that.

It actually is time gating if you artificially tell a story over one full year instead of telling it fully at the start of a new story chapter. In that case, the stroy is time gated, no matter if new content is being added.

ZOS should really not try to make ESO+ subs matter longer, but instead focus on selling new DLCs via the crown shop, and add fully newly designed regions with new stories told in new DLCs every month or all 2 months. I would believe that is worth it. In the end, time gating just does not work, as people may stop playing just to return whenever those time gates are gone. It is just now that they may see the full story earlier, and i myself feel exploited if the only thing that is being added in one full month is just a small quest line, and nothing else.

If you, ZOS, want more customers, add more unique content. And do not time gate the stories told.

Amottica

geschmonz wrote: »

Well, time gating means any kind of content that is available, but artificially gated behind a schedule. I think content should be fully available once it is released. It is just that time gating does not work.

I would expect that Zos has not completed the DLC that is to follow the chapter. Gaming companies are often working on the next release up to the point it is to be released. At the same time, they are also working on future content for other releases. I expect Zenimax is already working on next year's stories if not even starting to hash out what comes after that.

This stuff is not tossed together in a few weeks or months. Heck, while I am new here I am excited that I do not have to wait a year or longer between significant updates like how most MMORPGs do this.

Elsonso

geschmonz wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

ESO doesn't do that.

It actually is time gating if you artificially tell a story over one full year instead of telling it fully at the start of a new story chapter. In that case, the stroy is time gated, no matter if new content is being added.

ZOS should really not try to make ESO+ subs matter longer, but instead focus on selling new DLCs via the crown shop, and add fully newly designed regions with new stories told in new DLCs every month or all 2 months. I would believe that is worth it. In the end, time gating just does not work, as people may stop playing just to return whenever those time gates are gone. It is just now that they may see the full story earlier, and i myself feel exploited if the only thing that is being added in one full month is just a small quest line, and nothing else.

If you, ZOS, want more customers, add more unique content. And do not time gate the stories told.

Yes, they should continue to tell the story over the course of the year, in quarterly installments. This presents a game that is actively being worked on and developed by the studio and keeps people around all year, rather than just a for a couple weeks following the one and only story drop.

I would prefer that they close the Crown Store, stop selling Crowns and loot boxes, and go to a full subscription model. This keeps the game from becoming more of a "Free to Play" game.

geschmonz

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes, they should continue to tell the story over the course of the year, in quarterly installments. This presents a game that is actively being worked on and developed by the studio and keeps people around all year, rather than just a for a couple weeks following the one and only story drop.

It does not work, for me and with me for example. If i run against a brick wall, i quit. Just to return when all the story content of an active story chapter is available. I do not really miss anything.

Elsonso wrote: »

I would prefer that they close the Crown Store, stop selling Crowns and loot boxes, and go to a full subscription model. This keeps the game from becoming more of a "Free to Play" game.

I always book ESO+, yet i believe the DLC model is more fair, as it prevents time gating. Sub driven MMORPGs end in heavy uses of time gated content.

And you really like that?

trackdemon5512

geschmonz wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

ESO doesn't do that.

It actually is time gating if you artificially tell a story over one full year instead of telling it fully at the start of a new story chapter. In that case, the stroy is time gated, no matter if new content is being added.

ZOS should really not try to make ESO+ subs matter longer, but instead focus on selling new DLCs via the crown shop, and add fully newly designed regions with new stories told in new DLCs every month or all 2 months. I would believe that is worth it. In the end, time gating just does not work, as people may stop playing just to return whenever those time gates are gone. It is just now that they may see the full story earlier, and i myself feel exploited if the only thing that is being added in one full month is just a small quest line, and nothing else.

If you, ZOS, want more customers, add more unique content. And do not time gate the stories told.

ZOS has never had story and zone content done well in a year ahead of release. Last year was proof where voice actors recorded their lines out of studio during the pandemic.

A rough plan is decided upon, teams then go to work on implementation with a four quarter schedule. Work is done on designing zones and such right up to each individual PTS in which you can assume that a build has gone from Alpha to Beta.

Also the “time gating” works in that players stay engaged and don’t leave the game. It used to be that players completed content quickly and then left, possibly to never return. Your idea of releasing new content every 2 months is basically impossible. Such a development schedule wouldn’t allow for zones to be created, tested, or certified.

Each DLC and console patch requires a certification and a cost. You would drastically drive up company costs and lower quality.

geschmonz

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Also the “time gating” works in that players stay engaged and don’t leave the game.

I just unsub until the time gates are gone.

Amottica

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

geschmonz wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

ESO doesn't do that.

It actually is time gating if you artificially tell a story over one full year instead of telling it fully at the start of a new story chapter. In that case, the stroy is time gated, no matter if new content is being added.

ZOS should really not try to make ESO+ subs matter longer, but instead focus on selling new DLCs via the crown shop, and add fully newly designed regions with new stories told in new DLCs every month or all 2 months. I would believe that is worth it. In the end, time gating just does not work, as people may stop playing just to return whenever those time gates are gone. It is just now that they may see the full story earlier, and i myself feel exploited if the only thing that is being added in one full month is just a small quest line, and nothing else.

If you, ZOS, want more customers, add more unique content. And do not time gate the stories told.

ZOS has never had story and zone content done well in a year ahead of release. Last year was proof where voice actors recorded their lines out of studio during the pandemic.

A rough plan is decided upon, teams then go to work on implementation with a four quarter schedule. Work is done on designing zones and such right up to each individual PTS in which you can assume that a build has gone from Alpha to Beta.

Also the “time gating” works in that players stay engaged and don’t leave the game. It used to be that players completed content quickly and then left, possibly to never return. Your idea of releasing new content every 2 months is basically impossible. Such a development schedule wouldn’t allow for zones to be created, tested, or certified.

Each DLC and console patch requires a certification and a cost. You would drastically drive up company costs and lower quality

.

While I was not here when this pandemic started but this makes total sense and demonstrates that Zos is not artificially time-gating content. This demonstrated they are not holding back content that is already finished which is what seems to be in question here.

geschmonz

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Each DLC and console patch requires a certification and a cost. You would drastically drive up company costs and lower quality.

But each DLC also bring in money from those who play the free version of the game. As they either sub to play the new DLC or buy the new DLC from the crown shop.

I think the DLC model is way more fair, as ZOS had no reason to articially stretch a story over a whole year. They could create a DLC for all their subbed players and for the free players for a crown shop price.

Those story chapters do not work. Players just play them at their end rather than at their start. Same outcome. The net content is only enough for a subbed month.

BlueRaven

A time gate implies something is finished and is being artificially held back.

The next dlc is far from finished.

You might as well be saying don’t release any content until every bit of content they EVER plan on making for ESO is complete.

Elsonso

geschmonz wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes, they should continue to tell the story over the course of the year, in quarterly installments. This presents a game that is actively being worked on and developed by the studio and keeps people around all year, rather than just a for a couple weeks following the one and only story drop.

It does not work, for me and with me for example. If i run against a brick wall, i quit. Just to return when all the story content of an active story chapter is available. I do not really miss anything.

That's fine, and is really no different than if they had released it all at one time. Right?

geschmonz wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I would prefer that they close the Crown Store, stop selling Crowns and loot boxes, and go to a full subscription model. This keeps the game from becoming more of a "Free to Play" game.

I always book ESO+, yet i believe the DLC model is more fair, as it prevents time gating. Sub driven MMORPGs end in heavy uses of time gated content.

And you really like that?

Whether you get your DLC with Crowns or with ESO Plus, you are still borrowing the content. I get ESO Plus for the whole package, not just the DLC. I don't want that transferred to the Crown Store.

Yes, I really do like that ZOS is rolling out the year long stories. The dungeon content adds background, which can be consumed or ignored. The two zone content installments are largely self-contained, but add to the larger story.

The problem, as noted in another thread, is that ZOS is getting stuck on formulas of X-this, Y-that, and the story drifts towards A, B, and C. I attribute this to a development team that needs some outsider to come in and inject new ideas.

geschmonz

BlueRaven wrote: »

You might as well be saying don’t release any content until every bit of content they EVER plan on making for ESO is complete.

No, i say that content should be split into smaller unique parts. For example the Elswyr chapter, it couild have been easily released as DLC content in two different DLCs in month 3 and month 9 of a year, with smaller unique DLCs inbetween. Yet, the stroy told would have beein available from start to end of every of those regions.

Time gating is, just like a Skinner box, no solution for a problem that is about "There is not enough content". [snip] As more content is available, as more players will play. As more skinner boxes and time gates they implement, as more players will burn out and finally quit.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Kiralyn2000

On this theory, the NFL is time gating their season, instead of just playing all the games. And don't get me started on TV series, making me wait a week for the next episode (and then months with repeats until the next set are done.) And those pesky book trilogies! Making me wait for the rest of the story!



/s

Kiralyn2000

You know, this thread reminds me of WoW back in the day. When there were actual "time gates" in the story releases - like "we're invading <zone>! Once the players complete enough Establish Beachhead dailies, the next stage of the invasion will unlock!"

geschmonz

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

You know, this thread reminds me of WoW back in the day. When there were actual "time gates" in the story releases - like "we're invading <zone>! Once the players complete enough Establish Beachhead dailies, the next stage of the invasion will unlock!"

Time gating is way more than that. In the case of ESO, the story itself is time gated behind a fixed amount of time. And part of the questing progress.

trackdemon5512

geschmonz wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Each DLC and console patch requires a certification and a cost. You would drastically drive up company costs and lower quality.

But each DLC also bring in money from those who play the free version of the game. As they either sub to play the new DLC or buy the new DLC from the crown shop.

I think the DLC model is way more fair, as ZOS had no reason to articially stretch a story over a whole year. They could create a DLC for all their subbed players and for the free players for a crown shop price.

Those story chapters do not work. Players just play them at their end rather than at their start. Same outcome. The net content is only enough for a subbed month.

There is no free version of the game. All players have to pay in order to access the base version of the game outside of the four trial weeks a year.

DLCs cost 1500 crowns for a dungeon pack, 2000 crowns for a small zone, and 3500 crowns for a chapter zone one year after release. That equates to roughly $15, $20, and $35 each respectively. Note that chapters once in the crown store often separate new features to be purchased separately like the Warden and Necromancer classes.

All added together it would cost about $85 to get all content for a year if it was in the crown store. If you were to get the chapter new as an upgrade it would be $95.

An ESO+ sub costs $15 a month or $140 a year if purchased all at once. 1650 crowns are awarded for each month, in game bonuses are awarded, content is discounted, and all DLC except for the newest chapter is accessible.

I don’t understand how you think players are being screwed over by getting a subscription that they can cancel. Esp as the crowns awarded can easily be exchanged to own the content permanently if you decide to discontinue your membership. 1 month of subscription gets you full access and then after the month you can decide to purchase a dungeon DLC or cancel or leave. 2 months covers any zone DLC and likely an older chapter as they often go on sale and are even further discounted for ESO+ members.

It’s also clear that just asking players to purchase all content instead of subbing causes those players to pick and choose rather than enjoy it all. This results in less popular content being more difficult to enjoy with others in an MMO.

Your idea of how the game should parcel out content would only serve to hurt it.

sarahthes

If this content release model wasn't profitable for ZOS, they would have moved to a different model. Given that they haven't moved to another content release model, I think it's safe to say they're satisfied with the revenue stream from the current model...

geschmonz

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

There is no free version of the game. All players have to pay in order to access the base version of the game outside of the four trial weeks a year.

DLCs cost 1500 crowns for a dungeon pack, 2000 crowns for a small zone, and 3500 crowns for a chapter zone one year after release. That equates to roughly $15, $20, and $35 each respectively. Note that chapters once in the crown store often separate new features to be purchased separately like the Warden and Necromancer classes.

Thank you for telling me what i already knew.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

I don’t understand how you think players are being screwed over by getting a subscription that they can cancel. Esp as the crowns awarded can easily be exchanged to own the content permanently if you decide to discontinue your membership. 1 month of subscription gets you full access and then after the month you can decide to purchase a dungeon DLC or cancel or leave. 2 months covers any zone DLC and likely an older chapter as they often go on sale and are even further discounted for ESO+ members.

Thank you for telling me another bunch of facts i already knew.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Your idea of how the game should parcel out content would only serve to hurt it.

Not really. It actually would honor those who are subbed. And get payment for those who play the "free" version, where i mean the version where you have to buy DLCs from the crown shop.

I would believe the number of "free" players is way larger than those who actually pay ESO+. Based on that, ZOS would make way more money from DLC content rather from chapters people buy at the end to avoid time gates.

BlueRaven

geschmonz wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You might as well be saying don’t release any content until every bit of content they EVER plan on making for ESO is complete.

No, i say that content should be split into smaller unique parts. For example the Elswyr chapter, it couild have been easily released as DLC content in two different DLCs in month 3 and month 9 of a year, with smaller unique DLCs inbetween. Yet, the stroy told would have beein available from start to end of every of those regions.

Time gating is, just like a Skinner box, no solution for a problem that is about "There is not enough content". If ZOS is not able to create enough content, they should at least try. As more content is available, as more players will play. As more skinner boxes and time gates they implement, as more players will burn out and finally quit.

If you are not as dumb as a horse who runs behind a carrot, you will easily manage to unsub just to return once all the time gating is gone, no matter if it really took ZOS that long to actually implement the content.

“ i say that content should be split into smaller unique parts. For example the Elswyr chapter, it couild have been easily released as DLC content in two different DLCs in month 3 and month 9 of a year, with smaller unique DLCs inbetween.”

But isn’t this just... Time gating?

The chapter was done, they released it. When southern elsweyr was done, they released it.

They are releasing what they have finished (sometimes before it is finished) they are not time gating anything.

sarahthes

BlueRaven wrote: »

geschmonz wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You might as well be saying don’t release any content until every bit of content they EVER plan on making for ESO is complete.

No, i say that content should be split into smaller unique parts. For example the Elswyr chapter, it couild have been easily released as DLC content in two different DLCs in month 3 and month 9 of a year, with smaller unique DLCs inbetween. Yet, the stroy told would have beein available from start to end of every of those regions.

Time gating is, just like a Skinner box, no solution for a problem that is about "There is not enough content". If ZOS is not able to create enough content, they should at least try. As more content is available, as more players will play. As more skinner boxes and time gates they implement, as more players will burn out and finally quit.

If you are not as dumb as a horse who runs behind a carrot, you will easily manage to unsub just to return once all the time gating is gone, no matter if it really took ZOS that long to actually implement the content.

“ i say that content should be split into smaller unique parts. For example the Elswyr chapter, it couild have been easily released as DLC content in two different DLCs in month 3 and month 9 of a year, with smaller unique DLCs inbetween.”

But isn’t this just... Time gating?

The chapter was done, they released it. When southern elsweyr was done, they released it.

They are releasing what they have finished (sometimes before it is finished) they are not time gating anything.

Not only that, but there is Q1 and Q3 content that serves to expand on the story or theme of the year anyway... aka the dungeon DLCs...