Other MMO's have better incentives for being a tank using the LFG tool, why doesn't this one?

Anonx31st

With all the complaints of people being fake tanks, and the tank shortage when using the LFG tool, why doesn't this game have an incentive for being a tank? In HM Vet and trials, a tank is the class with the most abuse from strangers, the ones that have to know the fight mechanics (even sometimes explain it), have to do the extra work of gathering up all the mobs and leading the group through the dungeons/trials. Doing all this with virtually no incentives. The only counter-argument is that they get a shorter que time. This incentive alone isn't worth having to pay the respec costs to play as a tank in groups, than re-spec to solo. As a DPS you just have to wait on average for a 10 minute que (which can easily be done by just doing something else in the game while waiting like collecting a skyshard). So not only do you get the majority of the abuse and have to do extra work as a tank, you now have to even pay for it out of your own pocket. Other MMO's like World of Warcraft gives a random bag with some coin, etc. if you help the tank shortage by playing as one. I am not asking for a lot of incentives, just enough gold to at least be able to repay your respec costs and maybe a couple Transmute Crystals after you are done helping by tanking so you can respec and have gear for soloing. The incentive can also only be tied to veteran dungeon content as well since the fake tanks are the ones that run the normal dungeons for the daily. With the tank shortage and the negativity around tanking for other strangers, why wouldn't ESO have some benefits to help solve these issues like other MMO's after 7+ years?

Fennwitty

I agree with the sentiment but I never respec just to tank and then go to overland. I make necessary modifications using different skills and armors.

Changing gear and skills I can go from a good tank to a passable DPS, plenty enough for world questing.

Giving loot to people queuing as tanks isn't going to help though. It will probably INCREASE the number of fake tanks.

The real issue is that tanking is (apparently) not enjoyable in its current state for most players. Maybe more variety would help, there's very little diversity besides class.

Fennwitty

Honestly if there was better class and race parity, that would go a long way to adding diversity.

How many Templar Tanks are there? How many Sorc and Nightblades?

They exist but the incredible class imbalance makes it almost as if they didn't exist. I don't want them to be identical but those classes need more in their toolkits.

Grandchamp1989

Edit: I give up trying to to argue for a reasonable Tank experience.

In other news the new house on PTS looks cool, and Summer is drawing closer!

zvavi

Fennwitty wrote: »

Honestly if there was better class and race parity, that would go a long way to adding diversity.

How many Templar Tanks are there? How many Sorc and Nightblades?

They exist but the incredible class imbalance makes it almost as if they didn't exist. I don't want them to be identical but those classes need more in their toolkits.

Yes give my sorc tank more toolkits, it is definitely not my most versatile tank :laughs like a maniac: NB and Templar tanks do need something in the cc department though (and no, NB fear ain't it, cause adds that were chained in a moment ago are cc immune).

On the topic though, the main reason for lack of tanks is not enough good dds. Nothing beats staring at a boring boss for 10 minutes while your "dds" are trying to kill it.

Sarannah

Fennwitty wrote: »

Honestly if there was better class and race parity, that would go a long way to adding diversity.

How many Templar Tanks are there? How many Sorc and Nightblades?

They exist but the incredible class imbalance makes it almost as if they didn't exist. I don't want them to be identical but those classes need more in their toolkits.

My nightblade and templar tanks are really strong. My sorc is really good as well. The only thing some classes are missing is a group buff, or a monster debuff. Templars and sorcs do not have those, and it does make some difference in dungeonspeed.
I'm currently playing all 6 classes as tank in veteran dungeons, and notice clear differences. Some have better sustain, some are tankier, some have groupbuffs or monster debuffs, others have better CC, etc. But they all seem to work well. Classbalance barely has anything to do with this, some players just aren't good tanks. No matter what class they play.

I suspect the problem with players not wanting to tank, is that it is a more active playingstyle. Often being the easiest target to blame when something goes wrong, isn't ideal as well. And it does not work well with questing. Dualspec would fix some of those issues, and maybe companions already will as well.

Tanks however, shouldn't get better incentives to join the dungeonfinder. Atleast not until ZOS enforces the roles. Otherwise the fake tanking issue will become much much worse. Faster queue's are already a bonus, and should be enough incentive for a tank.

PS ZOS: Do not nerf dark cloak for nightblades, this is a really important PvE tanking tool for me!!!

Viewsfrom6ix

The incentive is instant queue

AcadianPaladin

Loot/rewards won't make playing a tank more popular. Here's a couple things I would like to see in order to draw me in to pugging with a tank:

Mobs that cannot break taunt. If I devote my entire character to controlling a boss and the boss has mechanics that allow him to sometimes ignore my taunt, then I am not a happy tank. And pugs tend to think I don't know what I'm doing when a boss ignores my active taunt.

Tanks give up so much damage to be tanks that it sucks the fun out of things. I'm not asking to be a dps but at least let me be a main battle tank who can readily do 10k dps without sacrificing any tank abilities. A good solution would be to have at least one S&B skill that scales damage off heath - use battle spirit or whatever to address PvP concerns. Changing gear to go from dungeon tank to overland quester is is a pain in the neck that contributes to not wanting to be a tank.

These are just a couple things that I think could be done. The other challenges of pugs running ahead of the tank and creating a mess for the tank to clean up and poor dps are beyond the scope of the devs to fix.

jrgray93

All of the time saved by queueing as a tank is immediately lost when my random group does 10-15k total dps and I can do 4x that on my dps characters alone. It's less of a time benefit and more self-induced pain to queue as a rank.

Araneae6537

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Loot/rewards won't make playing a tank more popular. Here's a couple things I would like to see in order to draw me in to pugging with a tank:

Mobs that cannot break taunt. If I devote my entire character to controlling a boss and the boss has mechanics that allow him to sometimes ignore my taunt, then I am not a happy tank. And pugs tend to think I don't know what I'm doing when a boss ignores my active taunt.

Tanks give up so much damage to be tanks that it sucks the fun out of things. I'm not asking to be a dps but at least let me be a main battle tank who can readily do 10k dps without sacrificing any tank abilities. A good solution would be to have at least one S&B skill that scales damage off heath - use battle spirit or whatever to address PvP concerns. Changing gear to go from dungeon tank to overland quester is is a pain in the neck that contributes to not wanting to be a tank.

These are just a couple things that I think could be done. The other challenges of pugs running ahead of the tank and creating a mess for the tank to clean up and poor dps are beyond the scope of the devs to fix.

I could not agree more! I’ve done a bit of tanking, but number one thing I find very frustrating is knowing if and when enemies are untauntable. I also hate being slower than the rest of the group (I took the CP speed boosts but maybe most do or they don’t make up for slow slow heavy armor). Yes, the group should wait for the tank, but of course not everyone does and making tanks slow just makes it more of a pain for everyone.

Raegwyr

Unfortunately the only thing that would make tanking in pugs enjoyable is drastically increase the median dps of players. When i go to dung X as tank with my friends it take us around 10-20 minutes with few exceptions. Going with pug and doing the same dung in 25-30 minutes is okay. But often the dung you can finish in 15 with randoms you do in 45min or hour even if not more. When I'm queuing as tank and with 4k dps i do 35% group damage i don't want to waste time.
To resolve the issue of fake dps, zos needs to figure out how to teach new players basics and force them to use basics in overland so they can pull at least 10k, now how to roll dodge and how to not stand in red. This is not high science, everyone should be capable of doing so. Unfortunately for even this amount of knowledge players need to look for knowledge on yt or other sites as in game they wont learn a thing

Ackwalan

If being a tank gave better rewards, more people would fake tank to get those rewards.

kargen27

Ackwalan wrote: »

If being a tank gave better rewards, more people would fake tank to get those rewards.

that's what I was going to type.

zaria

Now its no issue making an overland setup for an tank, make an magic or stamina dd build.
Magic uses less skill point as you have the destro staff leveled up anyway.
Yes you will not be an good build but work enough for overland.

deleted221106-002999

For dungeon pug tanks just build for dd/dps and switch gear/skills between activities and slottable cp stars if you can. This means you can adapt to what's needed in any given run: more dps, stronger resistances, more group support...or quit if with a particularly dps-disadvantaged group. And ALWAYS offline-mode: most of [edit]the delightful[/edit] pug bs is entirely avoided with this simplest of steps.

I think that introducing any more incentive to play the tank role would just mean more fakes and longer queues for real tanks (abridged defintion of real[TM] tank: taunt, cc, mob-stack, buff, debuff, support).

edit: dumarse

BlueRaven

Anonx31st wrote: »

With all the complaints of people being fake tanks, and the tank shortage when using the LFG tool, why doesn't this game have an incentive for being a tank? In HM Vet and trials, a tank is the class with the most abuse from strangers, the ones that have to know the fight mechanics (even sometimes explain it), have to do the extra work of gathering up all the mobs and leading the group through the dungeons/trials. Doing all this with virtually no incentives. The only counter-argument is that they get a shorter que time. This incentive alone isn't worth having to pay the respec costs to play as a tank in groups, than re-spec to solo. As a DPS you just have to wait on average for a 10 minute que (which can easily be done by just doing something else in the game while waiting like collecting a skyshard). So not only do you get the majority of the abuse and have to do extra work as a tank, you now have to even pay for it out of your own pocket. Other MMO's like World of Warcraft gives a random bag with some coin, etc. if you help the tank shortage by playing as one. I am not asking for a lot of incentives, just enough gold to at least be able to repay your respec costs and maybe a couple Telvar Stones after you are done helping by tanking so you can respec and have gear for soloing. The incentive can also only be tied to veteran dungeon content as well since the fake tanks are the ones that run the normal dungeons for the daily. With the tank shortage and the negativity around tanking for other strangers, why wouldn't ESO have some benefits to help solve these issues like other MMO's after 7+ years?

The problem with this idea is that all it will do is incentivize people to fake tank even more. The game cannot distinguish between real and fake ones, so giving a prize for tanking only gives more reason for people to fake tank.

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Edit: I give up trying to to argue for a reasonable Tank experience.

In other news the new house on PTS looks cool, and Summer is drawing closer!

Pretty much this.

I used to have five tanks I am now down to one. And I only use my tank "upon request" from people I know. ZOS wants people who tank to have a miserable time, they are incentivizing people NOT to tank. So why fight it any more? Just delete or convert your tanks to dps, in the long run it is a better experience.

jrgray93

It's honestly a culmination of the many issues people have outlined. Overland content is too easy, so people arrive to group content completely unprepared. Then they see vet gives two keys instead of one, and they decide to immediately bring their awfulness into content they aren't prepared for.

If making overland content more difficult has even the slightest negative impact on population, they won't do it. You have to go through some periods of frustration to get good at this game and a lot of people just won't have it.

I'd have a much better time in bad groups if the rando population wasn't so antisocial. 90% or more of players I find in randos won't say a word, even in response to constant communication. Then once the final boss dies, they leave within seconds. It baffles me just how many people are like this.

Jeremy

Anonx31st wrote: »

With all the complaints of people being fake tanks, and the tank shortage when using the LFG tool, why doesn't this game have an incentive for being a tank? In HM Vet and trials, a tank is the class with the most abuse from strangers, the ones that have to know the fight mechanics (even sometimes explain it), have to do the extra work of gathering up all the mobs and leading the group through the dungeons/trials. Doing all this with virtually no incentives. The only counter-argument is that they get a shorter que time. This incentive alone isn't worth having to pay the respec costs to play as a tank in groups, than re-spec to solo. As a DPS you just have to wait on average for a 10 minute que (which can easily be done by just doing something else in the game while waiting like collecting a skyshard). So not only do you get the majority of the abuse and have to do extra work as a tank, you now have to even pay for it out of your own pocket. Other MMO's like World of Warcraft gives a random bag with some coin, etc. if you help the tank shortage by playing as one. I am not asking for a lot of incentives, just enough gold to at least be able to repay your respec costs and maybe a couple Transmute Crystals after you are done helping by tanking so you can respec and have gear for soloing. The incentive can also only be tied to veteran dungeon content as well since the fake tanks are the ones that run the normal dungeons for the daily. With the tank shortage and the negativity around tanking for other strangers, why wouldn't ESO have some benefits to help solve these issues like other MMO's after 7+ years?

It's a good idea to add incentives for players to queue up as roles in need. But I doubt it happens. This game (more than any other MMO I have played) seems to have disdain for tanks. So I doubt they care much about the tank shortage. In fact: I think that might even be their goal. Because if they actually wanted more people to play tanks, they sure do have a funny way of showing it.

Jeremy

Ackwalan wrote: »

If being a tank gave better rewards, more people would fake tank to get those rewards.

lol, probably.

That's an obvious counter argument I didn't even consider.

Magdalina

Honestly imo (as someone who plays both tank and dps and pugs vet dungeons in both roles) it's not even about extra reward as much as it's just about not feeling punished. I do enjoy tanking in this game, I like not having to worry about my parse but rather about mechanics, I like being the one leading the group, I like getting instant queues. There is plenty of incentive to tank there. I mean, I wouldn't say no to getting free stuff for what I already do lol, but I don't think that's quite the issue here.

What I don't like is spending 1+ hour in a dungeon that should take 20 mins tops JUST because of low dps. Better yet, being unable to finish a dungeon that should only take 20 minutes because of low dps + not following mechs combo. There's nothing more frustrating than doing your role perfectly yet seeing team is unable to bget through just because they don't have the numbers for it. And I'm not talking some skyhigh dps check like some dlc dungeons HMs, even something simple such as killing orbs + daedroth on Rilis in BC2 before next set spawns is literally impossible for some groups. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind newbie groups, I enjoy taking people through something like vet Frostvault or Scalecaller for their first time ever, it's super fun to try, fail and eventually overcome things. What isn't fun is not even trying. Because, really, at like ~10k dps per person on semi-stationary boss...that's not trying. Worse yet, a lot of these people aren't even aware they're underperforming (to put it lightly) and they either ignore you or react aggressively when you point that out. Tl;dr - we need to do something about people's dps. Namely about teaching people how to dps, as current pre-vet content does exactly nothing in that regard. As it stands now, on my dps I can carry underperforming groups in most content much better and quicker than on my tank. At this point I majorly prefer not pugging as tank without a capable dps friend by my side.

Another thing I don't like is constant changes. Yes, new stuff is good sometimes for a change, but ESO is just overkill. Change is the name of the game for everything every major patch, but it's especially true for tanks, partially due to ZOS unwillingness to separate PvP from PvE entirely (as it's pretty obvious at this point to anyone playing more than several months that they can never balance them both at once, they're just too different. Whereas an immortal tank in PvE is a nigh must for certain content, an immortal tank in PvP is a nuisance). I'm not quite as emotional about it as some people - you can always adapt, it's not quite as terrible as forums make it sound sometimes, but I do think that changes to PvE should be done for PvE reasons only (and vice versa. And I say that as someone who does sometimes PvP and realizes it's a more than valid playstyle).

Ippokrates

Due to a shortage of tanks, average time of queue is reduce almost to zero (at least in normal, where I was able to make 8 random dung in 2 hours, while I am not tanking in Vets so no opinion on that), instead of waiting 20-30 minutes as a DD - so here you have, reward for being tank. You're welcome.

zvavi

Ippokrates wrote: »

Due to a shortage of tanks, average time of queue is reduce almost to zero (at least in normal, where I was able to make 8 random dung in 2 hours, while I am not tanking in Vets so no opinion on that), instead of waiting 20-30 minutes as a DD - so here you have, reward for being tank. You're welcome.

It is not a reward, when dungeons you tank take extra 20 minutes because damage is horrible while on dd you can affect that.

Merforum

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Loot/rewards won't make playing a tank more popular. Here's a couple things I would like to see in order to draw me in to pugging with a tank:

Mobs that cannot break taunt. If I devote my entire character to controlling a boss and the boss has mechanics that allow him to sometimes ignore my taunt, then I am not a happy tank. And pugs tend to think I don't know what I'm doing when a boss ignores my active taunt.

Tanks give up so much damage to be tanks that it sucks the fun out of things. I'm not asking to be a dps but at least let me be a main battle tank who can readily do 10k dps without sacrificing any tank abilities. A good solution would be to have at least one S&B skill that scales damage off heath - use battle spirit or whatever to address PvP concerns. Changing gear to go from dungeon tank to overland quester is is a pain in the neck that contributes to not wanting to be a tank.

These are just a couple things that I think could be done. The other challenges of pugs running ahead of the tank and creating a mess for the tank to clean up and poor dps are beyond the scope of the devs to fix.

It is actually a great idea to have S&B (and frost staff) damage scale off health if they wanted to be consistent. A few years ago I can remember all the s&b abilities doing a lot more damage than they do now, but as usual PVPers were whining and they nerf all the skills damage.

They are going the absolute wrong direction by making tanking do LESS damage. I think you are totally correct one thing that makes PUG tanking even bearable is being able to do SOME damage (like with a set like azureblight which allows you to do about 10K DPS IF YOU DO YOUR JOB of making big stacks of adds). It is idiotic that they've setup the game to where healer and tank buffing DPS give big boost to DD DPS ONLY, rather than allowing tank and healer to DO THEIR OWN DPS as well as their job.

ZOS could end 'fake tanking' overnight by tracking activities while tanking, for instance, if during a boss fight the tank does NOT taunt the boss at least once every 15-30 seconds, then they do NOT GET REWARDS for random dungeon. Also they could track the activities of the fake tank and if they try to fake tank 3 times in a row, they get 'tank role' greyed out for 48 hours or something. They could add other tests too like not pulling/stacking mobs, not interrupting/blocking big hits, being way ahead of group, some very simple tests/checks which should be easy to implement.

And the way to make a tank work great in PVE even with some damage but not OP in PVP is to add a DELAY to the actions, so give like double damage to all s&b skills but add a .5 sec delay to each skill. I actually think it would make sense to allow tank to back bar 2hander, also with the delay on skills. Just like crimson set should have just had a 3-4 sec DELAY making it even more useless in PVP than the 2 second delay, but just fine for PVE. Instead they completely nerfed the set, now it is useless.

Ippokrates

zvavi wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Due to a shortage of tanks, average time of queue is reduce almost to zero (at least in normal, where I was able to make 8 random dung in 2 hours, while I am not tanking in Vets so no opinion on that), instead of waiting 20-30 minutes as a DD - so here you have, reward for being tank. You're welcome.

It is not a reward, when dungeons you tank take extra 20 minutes because damage is horrible while on dd you can affect that.

It is, cause you can make them kick you and then instantly get a new dung.

zvavi

Ippokrates wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Due to a shortage of tanks, average time of queue is reduce almost to zero (at least in normal, where I was able to make 8 random dung in 2 hours, while I am not tanking in Vets so no opinion on that), instead of waiting 20-30 minutes as a DD - so here you have, reward for being tank. You're welcome.

It is not a reward, when dungeons you tank take extra 20 minutes because damage is horrible while on dd you can affect that.

It is, cause you can make them kick you and then instantly get a new dung.

Which is more waste of time. Tanking in pug is meh, just shout out for guildmates and be done with it.

Brrrofski

The incentive for me is that I have to know mechanics and fights inside out. I like the fact that I have to be on the ball or we wipe.

Problem with this game, too many casual players. Nobody wants to learn fights and different roles. About 75% of people that use group finder do bad damage and have no idea what's going on. Because there's so many casual players.

Which it is what it is. Not having a go at anyone. But Zenimax has been turning this game into that for a while. So I wouldn't expect too much from the playerbase.

I run a damage tank that pulls a good 15k dps as well, while tanking hardmode dungeons with no healer. Controlling a fight and doing damage is a lot of fun. Amazes me when I don't see more people run saptanks. It's so much fun to play.

josiahva

Anonx31st wrote: »

With all the complaints of people being fake tanks, and the tank shortage when using the LFG tool, why doesn't this game have an incentive for being a tank? In HM Vet and trials, a tank is the class with the most abuse from strangers, the ones that have to know the fight mechanics (even sometimes explain it), have to do the extra work of gathering up all the mobs and leading the group through the dungeons/trials. Doing all this with virtually no incentives. The only counter-argument is that they get a shorter que time. This incentive alone isn't worth having to pay the respec costs to play as a tank in groups, than re-spec to solo. As a DPS you just have to wait on average for a 10 minute que (which can easily be done by just doing something else in the game while waiting like collecting a skyshard). So not only do you get the majority of the abuse and have to do extra work as a tank, you now have to even pay for it out of your own pocket. Other MMO's like World of Warcraft gives a random bag with some coin, etc. if you help the tank shortage by playing as one. I am not asking for a lot of incentives, just enough gold to at least be able to repay your respec costs and maybe a couple Transmute Crystals after you are done helping by tanking so you can respec and have gear for soloing. The incentive can also only be tied to veteran dungeon content as well since the fake tanks are the ones that run the normal dungeons for the daily. With the tank shortage and the negativity around tanking for other strangers, why wouldn't ESO have some benefits to help solve these issues like other MMO's after 7+ years?

Come on now, you don't have to respec to do solo stuff, just use Dressing Room or a similar add-on that allows you to swap gear and skills with a press of a button. Sure, you will still be speced into tank CP stuff, but that doesn't matter for solo stuff anyway, you can do enough damage just fine for all solo stuff in the game without being CP optimized. I do it all the time.

That being said, I agree that there is little reason to tank in this game and ZOS seems intent on making it very much not fun to play a tank(the whole new CP system was a huge damage nerf for those like me that just swapped skills and gear...I can still do enough for everything for the moment, but it doesn't take much to see that ZOS will continue to do this type of thing until tanks will be worthless for anything but pure tanking)

Anonx31st

I am not sure why people would be against encouraging others to play as a tank by giving an incentive like other MMO's do to help fix the que times. The tanking incentive could just be a once a day reward for choosing to tank using the LFG tool as well. It's not asking for much. Everyone complains about the que times and the tank shortage, why not find ways to fix it.

Indigogo

Time to ditch the stigma of "selfish sets" when pugging. Put that damage tank set on.
Bring on a new meta of damage tanks cause screw buffing lacklustre dds when you could just do the extra damage yourself AND take all the hits.

Araneae6537

Brrrofski wrote: »

The incentive for me is that I have to know mechanics and fights inside out. I like the fact that I have to be on the ball or we wipe.

Problem with this game, too many casual players. Nobody wants to learn fights and different roles. About 75% of people that use group finder do bad damage and have no idea what's going on. Because there's so many casual players.

Which it is what it is. Not having a go at anyone. But Zenimax has been turning this game into that for a while. So I wouldn't expect too much from the playerbase.

I run a damage tank that pulls a good 15k dps as well, while tanking hardmode dungeons with no healer. Controlling a fight and doing damage is a lot of fun. Amazes me when I don't see more people run saptanks. It's so much fun to play.

Would you mind sharing your build either in post or PM please? When I tank, I do like to go with other than the usual and prefer to have an option to do some damage. On my templar tank, I can sit on S&B if there’s a lot of damage coming in, but otherwise can switch to backbar 2H (plus I liked the idea of making a more traditional warrior tank and frost staff just doesn’t fit my vision for that, but it’s good to have options, and thanks to Undaunted skill line, I’m never without a taunt).

jssriot

If tank builds weren't so expensive, fussy and precise in terms of specs in this game, I'm sure more people would tank. At the end of the day, the actual role of tanking isn't that hard for most content. It's just...well, here's an example: you're a new player. You got your starter DPS build. You're learning it. You got 1 or 2 weapon skill lines levelled up and you know how to do a decent rotation. Then you want to getting into tanking. But oh hold on there! Do you have the right sets? Do you have other sets to be flexible as an offtank? Do you have all taunts unlocked? Do you have warhorn and barrier? Do you have sword and board levelled up? Can you also backbar a destro? How much health do you have? How's your mag and stam recovery? Do you know what you need if you don't have good resource management? Do you know what glyphs, traits and mundus you should use? Do you know about overtaunting? Do you which bosses can't be taunted and know what to do there? Do you have this and that addon? And so on...it's too much for most players. And honestly part of that isn't even the game design--it's what other players expect from tanks now at this point in the game's evolution.

Maybe lower your expectations for what is a tank. This community could start with not calling every tank people think is subpar a "fake tank."