What is the point of CP and progression?

GlorphNoldorin

[snip]

This has many causes but not limited to:

• Original architecture being designed a decade ago
• Original architecture not optimally designed for safety/hacking resulting in redesign
• Original developers left the game, they had a different vision based on original architecture
• Several subsequent developers had different visions
• Developers often did not have a deep enough understanding of game patterns and failed to recognize what constituted fun for large groups of players
• End game progression (over level 50) had several iterations with different developers (Veteran ranks, CP 1.0 and CP 2.0) with no coherent vision for progression
• Power creep resulted from arbitrarily increasing end game cp due to no coherent view on progression
• Content was created that matched this artificially high power creep

CP 2.0 provides such little bonuses for passives and slottables and for players with more than 1200cp potentially large numbers of CP that do not need to be allocated for anything. This hardly seems to be encouraging progression to 3600 CP.

If slottables will be kept to 4, and the CP soft cap is 1200, what will be the point of another 2400 CP?

The current power of CP 2.0 is so small for a great many of the passives and slottables and the developers are concerned with the overall power of end game....what is the point of having CP at all?

[snip] It's clear times are difficult for the company with covid etc and I in no way am faulting developers intentions, passion and work ethic. [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

M0R_Gaming

As ZOS intended, higher values of cp points don't mean vertical progression anymore, it's about the choices. The 2400 CP points on top of 1200 are there to allow you to simply swap out 2 stars without needing to spend 3000 gold on it. While this may not seem like much, if you constantly play multiple roles, such as pve and pvp on the same character, or dps, healing and tanking, then this saves tons of money.

Most of all, it gives some players a goal to work towards. There are always people who only play MMOs to grind, and the 3600 CP cap is a great way to give that to them.

Even back in CP 1.0, people could still hit very high numbers if they had only 400-600cp.

JerBearESO

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

As ZOS intended, higher values of cp points don't mean vertical progression anymore, it's about the choices. The 2400 CP points on top of 1200 are there to allow you to simply swap out 2 stars without needing to spend 3000 gold on it. While this may not seem like much, if you constantly play multiple roles, such as pve and pvp on the same character, or dps, healing and tanking, then this saves tons of money.

Most of all, it gives some players a goal to work towards. There are always people who only play MMOs to grind, and the 3600 CP cap is a great way to give that to them.

Even back in CP 1.0, people could still hit very high numbers if they had only 400-600cp.

but...being able to swap, a quality of life sort of thing, shouldnt be tied to late game progression in the first place.... thats just silly. better to go with a dual curve system for plenty of theoretical progression while maintaining balance through a reasonable "peak" point.

Dual curve system: increasing cost per tier, reducing benefit per tier, PLENTY of tiers per "star". Best way

katorga

3600 cp dwarfs the time and effort to 50, or even to max achievements. So it should have value, more value in fact that 50.

Then again 50 has no value either since you lose battle leveling and actually degrade in performance.

Even if it offers more "choices" if the choices are meaningless, meh.

Shantu

Theoretically, horizontal progression might seem like a good idea. But in reality, it's a bad one. Players are going to max out points they are interested in, and from that point on, anything else becomes pretty meaningless.

I've always felt the idea of too much vertical progression and power creep was a bit of a red herring. It's something that's a bit too easy to blame your problems. If you don't want too much DPS to override mechanics, design better content. Designing mechanics that can be ignored with enough DPS, and then blaming it on too much DPS, is just being blind to the problem. If you don't want high DPS burning through your content, then be creative in ways that too much DPS will work against you. Nerfing things into noodles is not the answer.

That being said, I also think there is FAR too much emphasis on what a tiny sliver of the population can achieve in regard to damage. Regardless, the problem is the creative limitations of the developers, NOT the high end abilities of the players.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Green CP is a good example of horizontality, there's so much to pick up in the Green CP and it all applies to valid game systems. Yes people are complaining about the slot in and out "mini game" but that's another matter.

The issue with Blue and Red CPs is that current meta is all about min/max certain builds.

The state of the art scenario would be if ZOS manages to create more cool slotable stars that would make build diversity more viable or horizontal too, so to speak. For example if a max crit build would be on par with a max WD or pet build or Heavy Attack build, etc, etc etc.

I think this new patch is headed towards that direction so we just have to give it time I guess.

YandereGirlfriend

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

As ZOS intended, higher values of cp points don't mean vertical progression anymore, it's about the choices. The 2400 CP points on top of 1200 are there to allow you to simply swap out 2 stars without needing to spend 3000 gold on it. While this may not seem like much, if you constantly play multiple roles, such as pve and pvp on the same character, or dps, healing and tanking, then this saves tons of money.

Most of all, it gives some players a goal to work towards. There are always people who only play MMOs to grind, and the 3600 CP cap is a great way to give that to them.

Even back in CP 1.0, people could still hit very high numbers if they had only 400-600cp.

The problem though is that there aren't actually any choices to be made.

You have the clear meta stars for every role and every build. Having meaningful choices would necessitate there being competing options with which to accomplish the same goal.

CP 2.0 has been astoundingly underwhelming.

Marto

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

As ZOS intended, higher values of cp points don't mean vertical progression anymore, it's about the choices. The 2400 CP points on top of 1200 are there to allow you to simply swap out 2 stars without needing to spend 3000 gold on it. While this may not seem like much, if you constantly play multiple roles, such as pve and pvp on the same character, or dps, healing and tanking, then this saves tons of money.

Most of all, it gives some players a goal to work towards. There are always people who only play MMOs to grind, and the 3600 CP cap is a great way to give that to them.

Even back in CP 1.0, people could still hit very high numbers if they had only 400-600cp.

The problem though is that there aren't actually any choices to be made.

You have the clear meta stars for every role and every build. Having meaningful choices would necessitate there being competing options with which to accomplish the same goal.

CP 2.0 has been astoundingly underwhelming.

If you take the meta too seriously, every meaningful choice in the game disappears.

At that point, is it even the developer's fault? The best they can do at that point is nerf the "meta" options, to make the more interesting and fun options more appealing.

Dizzybeatle

Personally, I have no issue with CP 2.0 - although some of the benefits seem to have been scaled down to nearly pointless levels with this update.

What I really don't get is why most of the green tree is even slotted at all - the majority are QOL improvements rewarded with time investment. Mostly, they shouldn't require slotting at all.

Red & Blue on the other hand, I totally get limiting. Just don't reduce the values of the passives to effectively pointless values. The system is kinda new so hoping that the feedback will be strong enough to evolve it, it's changed quite a bit even since its first iteration.

Alekero

CP its just a small (really small) bonus to char. There no much difference in PvP for ex. if u w/CP or w/o CP.
Since they're not touching gear and stuff (because it would be really dumb and sux to craft gear every new DLC or Expansion) they can do whatever they want with CP system.

katorga

Alekero wrote: »

CP its just a small (really small) bonus to char. There no much difference in PvP for ex. if u w/CP or w/o CP.
Since they're not touching gear and stuff (because it would be really dumb and sux to craft gear every new DLC or Expansion) they can do whatever they want with CP system.

CP is the majority of your game progression. So a really small bonus makes zero sense.

And yes, they do touch gear every DLC, and release new, nerf or buff old gear. That said because gear bonus lines are static amounts, balanced by spreadsheet. Whatever is BiS stays there for a long, long time.

Finedaible

The only "choices" left after the 4 slotted perks will be RP choices at this point. Being able to swap perks in and out is not a choice, it's an inconvenience that did not exist before. You can't slot more stars than the limit so what is the point of investing into other stars? Is it supposed to be more convenient than respeccing? Marginally. You could have achieved the same convenience in the old cp system by removing the gold cost which really doesn't need to be there since they've shown they can put cooldowns on changes anyway.

You still need to enter the cp menu, navigate to tree, find the relevant sub-menu when applicable, drag-and-drop the stars you want, then you need to confirm, and exit the menu every time you want to change tasks. YES, I am very aware there is a player addon which alleviates this issue but I think it is just downright ridiculous that the playerbase can come up with more streamlined menus and gameplay solutions than ZoS can after these two whole years (and probably more money than I can imagine). I've got to wonder how limiting passives in this way really is supposed to have an effect on the server load too because I just don't see how that helps when they keep dumping more and more sets, motifs, non-combat pets, and cosmetics into their database anyway.

Glantir

Actually there are many of dead cp points... you only get a bonus every 10/20/50CP.... and so on.

To level up 1 red perk with 10 cp steps, you need 30 cp (only every 3rd is a red one) so thats about 6 - 12 Million exp, +/-depends on how much you already have.

Why not reduce the overall cp points, increase the exp you need but change the perks so that every cp gives a bonus?

Would feel much more rewarding ^^. But I am sure I'm overlooking something

Marto

katorga wrote: »

CP is the majority of your game progression. So a really small bonus makes zero sense.

And yes, they do touch gear every DLC, and release new, nerf or buff old gear. That said because gear bonus lines are static amounts, balanced by spreadsheet. Whatever is BiS stays there for a long, long time.

It does make sense when you consider that for the majority of your game progression, you'll be playing content with static levels of difficulty.

honey_badger82

Alekero wrote: »

CP its just a small (really small) bonus to char. There no much difference in PvP for ex. if u w/CP or w/o CP.
Since they're not touching gear and stuff (because it would be really dumb and sux to craft gear every new DLC or Expansion) they can do whatever they want with CP system.

what they do with changes in the CP system does indeed affect what gear you need to wear. In CP 1.0 each of my dps had 4k pen and 6% crit chance. CP 2.0 launches and now I get 1400 pen and 3% crit chance. How do you think these losses are made up for? That's just one small example of how this new system dictates what a character needs to wear set wise.

GlorphNoldorin

[snip]

Its sad that most of the only contact on the forums are moderators. The communication from ZOS regarding development choices has always been minimal to everyone's detriment.

[Edited to remove Discussing Disciplinary Actions]

Jaimeh

Finedaible wrote: »

The only "choices" left after the 4 slotted perks will be RP choices at this point. Being able to swap perks in and out is not a choice, it's an inconvenience that did not exist before. You can't slot more stars than the limit so what is the point of investing into other stars? Is it supposed to be more convenient than respeccing? Marginally. You could have achieved the same convenience in the old cp system by removing the gold cost which really doesn't need to be there since they've shown they can put cooldowns on changes anyway.

This is even more pronounced when you have alts for dedicated activities: crafters, DDs, healers, etc., they will use the slottables only relevant to the activity and never swap, and just assign the extra cp to stars they will never use, because there's not enough passives (and only 4 slots). With the halving of the passives for Blackwood, this overflow of unused CP will come even sooner.

YandereGirlfriend

Marto wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

As ZOS intended, higher values of cp points don't mean vertical progression anymore, it's about the choices. The 2400 CP points on top of 1200 are there to allow you to simply swap out 2 stars without needing to spend 3000 gold on it. While this may not seem like much, if you constantly play multiple roles, such as pve and pvp on the same character, or dps, healing and tanking, then this saves tons of money.

Most of all, it gives some players a goal to work towards. There are always people who only play MMOs to grind, and the 3600 CP cap is a great way to give that to them.

Even back in CP 1.0, people could still hit very high numbers if they had only 400-600cp.

The problem though is that there aren't actually any choices to be made.

You have the clear meta stars for every role and every build. Having meaningful choices would necessitate there being competing options with which to accomplish the same goal.

CP 2.0 has been astoundingly underwhelming.

If you take the meta too seriously, every meaningful choice in the game disappears.

At that point, is it even the developer's fault? The best they can do at that point is nerf the "meta" options, to make the more interesting and fun options more appealing.

There will always be a mathematical best but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about providing compelling choices to players that might actually succeed in getting them to slot alternative stars, depending upon how they build their character.

Look at the pitiful +Magicka/Stamina and +Weapon/Spell Damage stars and compare that the Critical Damage and +Single Target stars - there is no reason on earth why you would slot the former over the latter. Why are they tuned that way? It's a simple matter to bump up the values of the former to levels where you could slot them without tanking your damage, so why aren't they?

Moving beyond that, why are these crude stat bonus stars our only choices in the first place? Why not more creative stars such as +Alchemical Poison Duration, +Frost Damage, +Damage to an Enemy Under a Status Effect, etc. CP 2.0 suffers from a tremendous lack of imagination which is odd considering that it was under development for two years.

Agalloch

When we speak the truth ZOS edit or delete our posts.

This sadly happens often ..:(

GlorphNoldorin

From now, let's only say nice things about ZOS

grumpy_pants95

honey_badger82 wrote: »

Alekero wrote: »

CP its just a small (really small) bonus to char. There no much difference in PvP for ex. if u w/CP or w/o CP.
Since they're not touching gear and stuff (because it would be really dumb and sux to craft gear every new DLC or Expansion) they can do whatever they want with CP system.

what they do with changes in the CP system does indeed affect what gear you need to wear. In CP 1.0 each of my dps had 4k pen and 6% crit chance. CP 2.0 launches and now I get 1400 pen and 3% crit chance. How do you think these losses are made up for? That's just one small example of how this new system dictates what a character needs to wear set wise.

That was the whole point of CP 2.0

In CP 1.0 you had the same basic stats so obviously you "had to" use the same "meta setup" everyone used in matter "to perform the meta level" otherwise people wouldn't let you join any content because "meta" and "3918k DPS" - therefore not a lot of sets were used, there was no build diversity really.

However with CP 2.0 - although it's great and could be made better - it's not particularly NEEDED to be able to perform in any sort of content. Once WD/SP/base stats have been increased, your skill rotation, sets that you use (because there are TONS of sets, the devs wanted to see more sets put to use rather than just the 3 "meta" choices) and then on top of all of that CP 2.0 stats come in place where each and every single choice you make improves your char's performance + you have quite a few choices to make in matter to have the build you want. There's more diversity in builds, other sets used that probably haven't been in CP1.0 = diversity into making a character and build the way you want it but also still be able to perform.

etchedpixels

grumpy_pants95 wrote: »

That was the whole point of CP 2.0

In CP 1.0 you had the same basic stats so obviously you "had to" use the same "meta setup" everyone used in matter "to perform the meta level" otherwise people wouldn't let you join any content because "meta" and "3918k DPS" - therefore not a lot of sets were used, there was no build diversity really.

For CP 2.0 there are a few cases you do differently for some builds (eg warden + bear) - but there were in CP 1.0. The rest however for PvE at least is defined by the penetration mess (especially on stamina), by the overnerf of sustain and is then a totally predictable selection for magdd/stamdd/tank/healer. If you have silly-number CP then just maybe slot different stuff for solo but again totally predictably.

The one tree with real diversity is the green tree where you've actually got a bunch of interesting options. Unfortunately that one is ruined by them all being slottable and the 30 second slotting cool down which also appears to be buggy.

It's pretty much inevitable because for most of it there is a maths problem there, and even if the maths isn't directly visible people will solve it by experimenting and almost everyone will clone the solution because they want to play the game not the equations.