ZOS, adding health recovery to battle spirit is only logical, but you forgot to buff it first

HankTwo

OK, so concerning the health recovery changes, we are currently in the situation where health regen is:
a) Pretty useless in PvE since heals are just better
But at the same time:
b) Pretty strong in PvP, potentially even OP with certain builds

The main culprit of this is the fact that on the current live server, battle spirit doesn't affect health recovery, which is in stark contrast to all other heals and damage shields. So imo, the only logical way to find a balance for health regen in both PvE and PvP is indeed to apply battle spirit to it. So kudos to ZOS, this was long overdue.

However(!), ZOS forgot that for health regen to be balanced and useful in both PvE and PvP, they would first need to buff it across the board by a significant amount. To demonstrate this, lets compare a health regen set to healing sets under three different conditions: 1) current version on the live server with health regen unaffected by battle spirit, 2) the proposed changes on the PTS, with health regen just affected by battle spirit without buffing it first, and 3) my proposed changes, with health regen being buffed across the board and then affected by battle spirit. In this case, health regen should be buffed by a significant value (roughly between 40% and 80%). Here, I will suggest a value of 60%.

Now, lets see how a strong health regen set, like alessian order at cap, compares to healing sets like battalion defender or hitis heart. We will use an estimated boost to health regen via ingame buffs and passives (fortitude, heavy armor passives, sorc or dk passives) of 50% and an estimated buff to healing done + healing received of 20%. Furthermore, we will compare the values in case of PvP vs PvE.

Case 1)
- Alessian order gives up to 1320 * 1.5 = 1980 effective health recovery. This translates to pretty much unconditional (edit: as in you dont need to perform any action to get it) 1k healing per second. This value is true for both PvE and PvP.
- Battalion defender gives up to 2490 * 1.2 = 2988 healing per second in PvE, which would be halved to 2988 * 0.5 = 1494 healing in PvP. However, this healing is bound to blocking, and therefore needs someone to directly attack you and also actively uses resources and reduces your mobility. If we estimate an average of 1 block every 2 seconds, this set will heal for roughly 1.5k healing per second in PvE and 747 in PvP.
- Hitis heart will on average heal for 1020 * 1.2 * (10/12) = 1020 healing per second in PvE. This will translate to 510 healing per second in PvP. However, keep in mind that this is an AOE heal that also applies to your allies and has a minor cost reduction buff applied to it.

--> As you can see, health recovery is already weaker than healing sets in PvE (same healing as hitis but its only a selfish single target heal). However in PvP, due to not being affected by battle spirit, it is a much more beneficial, especially since it is not bound to any actions and passively heals you at all times, even when kiting and not casting any skills.

Case 2)
- Alessian order still gives roughly 1k health recovery in PvE, but this value is now halved in PvP for a measly 495 healing per second.
- Both battalion defender (with 1.5k healing in PvE and 747 in PvP if block every 2 seconds) and hitis heart (with 1k healing in PvE and 510 healing in PvP) stay the same.

--> Now the same problem we had in case 1) in PvE, now also applies to PvP, in that an aoe healing set like hitis heals for the same amount as a purely selfish single target health regen set like alessian. Furthermore, in PvE, healing sets still outperform health regen sets, so the PvE problem is not solved at all.

Case 3)
- Alessian order would now give up to 1320 * 1.6 = 2112 health recovery unbuffed on the 5 piece. In our example this would translate to 2112 * 1.5 = 3168 effective health recovery in PvE, or roughly 1.6k healing per second (more in line with our battalion defender example and stronger than the hitis aoe heal since it is only single target). Since it is now also affected by battle spirit, it would heal for 792 healing per second in PvP.
- Battalion defender and hitis heart still stay the same.

--> This change would lead to a big 60% buff of health recovery in PvE, making it more viable and competitive compared to healing sets, while at the same time leading to a 1.6 * 0.5 = 0.8 --> 20% nerf in PvP, reducing its effectiveness but not making it flat out useless as the 50% nerf in case 2) would do.

Im not sure if the 60% value is the right one, maybe it should be 50%, maybe it should be 70%. But I'm 100% sure that without buffing health regen beforehand, it will become a useless stat to build for in any content, so I hope ZOS will have a look at this. Now, asking the community, what are your thoughts? Would this be a good approach to find a balanced spot for health regen in both PvE and PvP?

Sangwyne

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat. Now it's halved again. People on the forums actually claim health regen builds are "unkillable" and try to point to things like the 900 HP regen on Beekeeper's as proof. That's 225 HP/s.

That's actually pretty good, but not for tank player I guess. Hope this'll reduce the number of (almost) unkillable tank

Surely this is a positive thing for the game though! Unkillable PvP builds with massive health regen were destroying PvP.

Ain't no one here ever run a 4k HP recovery build? You have a ridiculous amount of passive HP recovery add this on to your heals its seriously over the top. I used to run 4k HP recovery on a NB, I could stack dark shadow + vigor and 1vs1 I was unkillable it took 2 good players ulti dumping to kill me and this is when I didnt even know how to LoS. I remember once killing a group of 4 and just receiving no damage, fault is on them their but HP recovery is OP in PvP.

Watch the so called unkillable "elite" fight to get this much deserved nerf nerfed

In the v7.0.0 PTS Patch notes:
FYI: We just added a missed note in the Combat & Gameplay section -
The Battle Spirit passive now also reduces your Health Recovery by 50%

Grabs popcorn...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570551/battle-spirit-health-recovery-debuff/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570630/watch-the-the-pvp-unkillables-throw-a-naffie/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570597/hp-regen/p1

Health regen builds were a meme somebody joked about months ago, folks, you weren't supposed to take them seriously.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat. Now it's halved again. People on the forums actually claim health regen builds are "unkillable" and try to point to things like the 900 HP regen on Beekeeper's as proof. That's 225 HP/s.

That's actually pretty good, but not for tank player I guess. Hope this'll reduce the number of (almost) unkillable tank

Surely this is a positive thing for the game though! Unkillable PvP builds with massive health regen were destroying PvP.

Ain't no one here ever run a 4k HP recovery build? You have a ridiculous amount of passive HP recovery add this on to your heals its seriously over the top. I used to run 4k HP recovery on a NB, I could stack dark shadow + vigor and 1vs1 I was unkillable it took 2 good players ulti dumping to kill me and this is when I didnt even know how to LoS. I remember once killing a group of 4 and just receiving no damage, fault is on them their but HP recovery is OP in PvP.

Watch the so called unkillable "elite" fight to get this much deserved nerf nerfed

In the v7.0.0 PTS Patch notes:
FYI: We just added a missed note in the Combat & Gameplay section -
The Battle Spirit passive now also reduces your Health Recovery by 50%

Grabs popcorn...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570551/battle-spirit-health-recovery-debuff/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570630/watch-the-the-pvp-unkillables-throw-a-naffie/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570597/hp-regen/p1

Health regen builds were a meme somebody joked about months ago, folks, you weren't supposed to take them seriously.

No, beekeeper HP regen doesnt get cut in half in combat. So beekeeper gives you 450 HP/s. Combined with buff food and mutliplier you easily reach 3k HP regen wich is 1500 HP/s. Basicly a vigor running all the time.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Health recovery might be strong but reducing it by 50% seems very heavy handed. The goal should be to tone it down while still letting it be viable to build for. With a nerf like this, building for health recovery just wont be worth it. Just run any other defensive set that doesn't involve health recovery as a 5 piece.

HankTwo

Sangwyne wrote: »

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat. Now it's halved again. People on the forums actually claim health regen builds are "unkillable" and try to point to things like the 900 HP regen on Beekeeper's as proof. That's 225 HP/s.

That's actually pretty good, but not for tank player I guess. Hope this'll reduce the number of (almost) unkillable tank

Surely this is a positive thing for the game though! Unkillable PvP builds with massive health regen were destroying PvP.

Ain't no one here ever run a 4k HP recovery build? You have a ridiculous amount of passive HP recovery add this on to your heals its seriously over the top. I used to run 4k HP recovery on a NB, I could stack dark shadow + vigor and 1vs1 I was unkillable it took 2 good players ulti dumping to kill me and this is when I didnt even know how to LoS. I remember once killing a group of 4 and just receiving no damage, fault is on them their but HP recovery is OP in PvP.

Watch the so called unkillable "elite" fight to get this much deserved nerf nerfed

In the v7.0.0 PTS Patch notes:
FYI: We just added a missed note in the Combat & Gameplay section -
The Battle Spirit passive now also reduces your Health Recovery by 50%

Grabs popcorn...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570551/battle-spirit-health-recovery-debuff/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570630/watch-the-the-pvp-unkillables-throw-a-naffie/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570597/hp-regen/p1

Health regen builds were a meme somebody joked about months ago, folks, you weren't supposed to take them seriously.

One of the best no CP stamsorcs on PC EU runs a health recovery build, and he can kite zergs for days with that. It definitely has its uses on live server, so not a meme at all. However, a 50% nerf will simply nuke this stat and make it underperform in pretty much any content, as demonstrated earlier.

Urzigurumash

Sangwyne wrote: »

Health regen builds were a meme somebody joked about months ago, folks, you weren't supposed to take them seriously.

Slander against the venerated Scales of our deathless King Orgnum, rightful claimant to the Sumurset Isles, the original 8 trait crafted tank set and reward for the Fighter's Guild questline.

Of course it is reasonable that HP Regen be affected by Battlespirit - how else could it be balanced against Battlespirit-reduced healing and be relevant in PvE and not overpowered in PvP?

Also of course - some integer sources of HP Regen simply must be buffed to remain remotely relevant in PvP as choices over other things - i.e. the Steed Sign, foods, enchantments, sets - and so as not to inequitably reduce the HPS of classes which had some of its budget allocated towards buffing integer sources of HP Regen.

Further of course - some would debate whether this above point should be considered, or whether it would be preferable if the stat were simply disabled in PvP

Urzigurumash

And I should say for years I was of the opinion that HP Regen was balanced against Mag and Stam Regen, and not Healing, but I didn't know anybody wanted it to be relevant in PvE. I think the integer sources for HP Regen probably need buffs for that to be the case, but it might be more important to get the number right for PvP first.

I think there were a few too strong of HP Regen sources added over the last couple years - even while the percentile buffs were diminished or removed - but 50% of live seems much too low to be relevant against Healing whatsoever.

I also think there's a role for HP Regen in a balanced ESO environment - as there was always up until recently and the Malacath meta revealed to more the strength of a stat they had previously undervalued, having little experience on or regard for the sorts of niche builds where it was useful.

And, finally, of course: that your balanced niche build used some build element in a balanced way doesn't mean this build element can't impact the overall meta in a way unconducive to enjoyable gameplay. But also: that you just discovered the unique strength of something doesn't mean it's inherently inappropriate on account of its unique characteristics.

amir412

Since this change affecting only PVP, it just shows how ZOS is out of touch with the player base & the current meta.
Going vamp stage 3 is already stronger on most specs and I also wonder, what's the point of nerfing HP regen when we are clearly in a one shot/burst meta.
Every - single - time they keep surprising me with these kind of decisions.

gariondavey

amir412 wrote: »

Since this change affecting only PVP, it just shows how ZOS is out of touch with the player base & the current meta.
Going vamp stage 3 is already stronger on most specs and I also wonder, what's the point of nerfing HP regen when we are clearly in a one shot/burst meta.
Every - single - time they keep surprising me with these kind of decisions.

Pretty much

DreadDaedroth

Easy solution.
Don't halve it with battle spirit, let things as they are.

HankTwo

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Easy solution.
Don't halve it with battle spirit, let things as they are.

Leaving it as it is makes it impossible to balance it for both PvE and PvP.

Urzigurumash

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Easy solution.
Don't halve it with battle spirit, let things as they are.

Or just buff every integer source of HP Regen by 30%, even the 2-4 line items and all of the foods and drinks, and let it be affected by Battlespirit, and see how that shakes out once we're in this scaled proc environment? Or, just buff DK's HP Regen value by a tremendous number, that would be fine with most of us here probably.

I'm an old Orc DK so believe me I like HP Regen. But this idea that it could be proliferated around in perfect equivalence with Mag and Stam regen - well, that seemed reasonable to me for a long time, but only to a point where sustain got so good you were already basically topping out on how well you could convert Mag or Stam into HPS - i.e. you were sustaining as many HoTs as you could reasonably slot at near 100% uptime - and no additional investment into Stam or Mag regen could result in a further increase to HPS - unless you were using it to help spam Burst Heals at low health - which demands multiple GCDs for this HPS, something that HP Regen directly bypasses.

Nobody really needs more - or stronger - HoTs on them right now, hardly anybody wants nerfs to sustain, myself included, so I'm fine then with dispensing of the idea that integer sources of HP Regen should be balanced in near perfect equivalence with Mag and Stam Regen - and since Mag and Stam Regen are not affected by Battlespirit, neither should be HP Regen - and instead relating the numerical sources of HP Regen to a number that's somehow derived from active healing, taking into account its benefits in not requiring a slot, the lower GCD cost, etc., along with the opportunity costs of not running a different food, or enchant, or Mundus, etc.

What this might help elucidate is how HP Regen values - specifically unique percentile buffs - can be used appropriately to address the lack of HPS in certain build-types, playstyles, classes, without giving excessive and unwarranted HPS to builds that really don't need it, and don't suffer much opportunity cost from incorporating the stat into their build.

This would result in increased HP Regen values on some specs, and lower on others, rather than lower on all, as it will be now.

The benefits for HPS by investment into HP Regen must be weighed against the general inability to convert HP Regen to DPS, whereas Stam and Mag Regen can be converted to both DPS and HPS.

This is one of the reasons heavy investment into HP Regen was for years something mostly limited to several types of niche builds on StamDK and StamSorc, and that's about it

StamSorc is doing ok right now in the meta, many people have some issues with StamDK, and MagDK too.

Throw DK a little bone on the defensive side, and this longer view of how HP Regen could be adjusted might be heard with more open ears.

Anybody disagree with me about any of that?

twing1_

Buffing the base character hp regen (which is still stuck at 309 for some reason, compared to stam/mag recovery that starts at 514) and also the 2-4 pc item set bonuses to health recovery is the way to go.

For some reason, 5 pc bonuses to health recovery already treat 2-4 pc item set bonuses to health recovery as if they are valued at 387 (triple of what its actually at, 129) anyway. (math here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562332/stat-bonuses-to-health-recovery-are-inconsistent#latest)

If they made hp regen consistent by bumping up the 2-4 pc set bonuses to 387 hp regen (3x the 2-4 pc bonuses to mag/stam recovery, and also what current 5 pc bonuses to hp regen value it at) and also giving base characters a starting hp regen of 1542 (3x the base character mag/stam recovery), the hp regen stat should be leveled out across both pvp and pve, now that it is affected by battle spirit.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

No, beekeeper HP regen doesnt get cut in half in combat. So beekeeper gives you 450 HP/s. Combined with buff food and mutliplier you easily reach 3k HP regen wich is 1500 HP/s. Basicly a vigor running all the time.

Don't know where you got this, but that's not how recovery works. Recovery outside of combat ticks for twice the value listed on your character sheet every other second, whereas recovery in combat ticks for the listed value every two seconds, halving the amount. Battle Spirit now applies a 50% reduction to Health Regen, meaning that in combat in PvP, Beekeeper's 900 HP regen now grants 450 Health every 2 seconds, which is 225HP/s. Base HP regen is 309, halved in combat and halved again with Battle Spirit to 77. Bewitched Sugar Skulls grants 462 HP regen, now 115. Where are you getting 1500 HP/s from 225+77+115? That's 417 HP/s. So with an entire set that doesn't even deal damage, Sugar Skulls, and base HP regen, you are getting 417 HP/s.

Edit: Corrected. Thanks @HankTwo for an excellent example on how HP regen works on live and PTS.

Starlight_Whisper

Artorias24 wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat. Now it's halved again. People on the forums actually claim health regen builds are "unkillable" and try to point to things like the 900 HP regen on Beekeeper's as proof. That's 225 HP/s.

That's actually pretty good, but not for tank player I guess. Hope this'll reduce the number of (almost) unkillable tank

Surely this is a positive thing for the game though! Unkillable PvP builds with massive health regen were destroying PvP.

Ain't no one here ever run a 4k HP recovery build? You have a ridiculous amount of passive HP recovery add this on to your heals its seriously over the top. I used to run 4k HP recovery on a NB, I could stack dark shadow + vigor and 1vs1 I was unkillable it took 2 good players ulti dumping to kill me and this is when I didnt even know how to LoS. I remember once killing a group of 4 and just receiving no damage, fault is on them their but HP recovery is OP in PvP.

Watch the so called unkillable "elite" fight to get this much deserved nerf nerfed

In the v7.0.0 PTS Patch notes:
FYI: We just added a missed note in the Combat & Gameplay section -
The Battle Spirit passive now also reduces your Health Recovery by 50%

Grabs popcorn...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570551/battle-spirit-health-recovery-debuff/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570630/watch-the-the-pvp-unkillables-throw-a-naffie/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570597/hp-regen/p1

Health regen builds were a meme somebody joked about months ago, folks, you weren't supposed to take them seriously.

No, beekeeper HP regen doesnt get cut in half in combat. So beekeeper gives you 450 HP/s. Combined with buff food and mutliplier you easily reach 3k HP regen wich is 1500 HP/s. Basicly a vigor running all the time.

Stack that with new cp passive that gives you health regain for not using ultimate and troll king and have fun

Starlight_Whisper

twing1_ wrote: »

Buffing the base character hp regen (which is still stuck at 309 for some reason, compared to stam/mag recovery that starts at 514) and also the 2-4 pc item set bonuses to health recovery is the way to go.

For some reason, 5 pc bonuses to health recovery already treat 2-4 pc item set bonuses to health recovery as if they are valued at 387 (triple of what its actually at, 129) anyway. (math here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562332/stat-bonuses-to-health-recovery-are-inconsistent#latest)

If they made hp regen consistent by bumping up the 2-4 pc set bonuses to 387 hp regen (3x the 2-4 pc bonuses to mag/stam recovery, and also what current 5 pc bonuses to hp regen value it at) and also giving base characters a starting hp regen of 1542 (3x the base character mag/stam recovery), the hp regen stat should be leveled out across both pvp and pve, now that it is affected by battle spirit.

The problem is how it stacks. Like add willow power, health regain mundus, troll king, sorc for 20 Percent regain, khajitt for regain racial,Troll king when health is low. Lastly always heavy amour cause harder to burst down.

Just needs cap like speed

Sangwyne

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Stack that with new cp passive that gives you health regain for not using ultimate and troll king and have fun

Ah yes, let me just give up my entire ultimate, along with a CP slot, along with two slots for a monster helm that only works when I'm below half health, to still have less healing than if I had just slotted a single healing proc set. DK relies more on HP regen than any other class, even if all we get is Major Fortitude from GDB and 5% HP regen, and can't afford to give up our ultimate when we need to use it to have literally any sustain at all. Are you seriously recommending that players give up every last gear slot for regen sets, a monster helm, CP slots and their ultimate for 3k HP regen just to receive 750 HP/s? I can slot Winter's Respite and get 2358/2= 1179 HP/s for me and all my allies, all the time, without needing to literally give up my ultimate, multiple sets, a monster helm, buff food, Mundus, and CP on a wasted stat.

GRXRG

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

No, beekeeper HP regen doesnt get cut in half in combat. So beekeeper gives you 450 HP/s. Combined with buff food and mutliplier you easily reach 3k HP regen wich is 1500 HP/s. Basicly a vigor running all the time.

Don't know where you got this, but that's not how recovery works. Recovery outside of combat ticks for the value listed on your character sheet every second, whereas recovery in combat ticks for the listed value every two seconds, effectively halving the amount. Battle Spirit now applies a 50% reduction to Health Regen, meaning that in combat in PvP, Beekeeper's 900 HP regen now grants 450 Health every 2 seconds, which is 225HP/s. Base HP regen is 309, halved in combat and halved again with Battle Spirit to 77. Bewitched Sugar Skulls grants 462 HP regen, now 115. Where are you getting 1500 HP/s from 225+77+115? That's 417 HP/s. So with an entire set that doesn't even deal damage, Sugar Skulls, and base HP regen, you are getting 417 HP/s. This nerf is a mistake, fueled by players demanding changes to a mechanic they don't even understand.

The nerf is not a mistake, I am tired of werewolves plebtards with 5k+ health regen and Impossible to take down 1vs1. I always hated passive hp regen that just saves you for doing nothing.
Getting 1k health every 2 seconds in combat is fair, getting 5k or 8k without active healing it's broken carry level.
A good step in the right direction.

JerBearESO

HankTwo wrote: »

OK, so concerning the health recovery changes, we are currently in the situation where health regen is:
a) Pretty useless in PvE since heals are just better
But at the same time:
b) Pretty strong in PvP, potentially even OP with certain builds

The main culprit of this is the fact that on the current live server, battle spirit doesn't affect health recovery, which is in stark contrast to all other heals and damage shields. So imo, the only logical way to find a balance for health regen in both PvE and PvP is indeed to apply battle spirit to it. So kudos to ZOS, this was long overdue.

However(!), ZOS forgot that for health regen to be balanced and useful in both PvE and PvP, they would first need to buff it across the board by a significant amount. To demonstrate this, lets compare a health regen set to healing sets under three different conditions: 1) current version on the live server with health regen unaffected by battle spirit, 2) the proposed changes on the PTS, with health regen just affected by battle spirit without buffing it first, and 3) my proposed changes, with health regen being buffed across the board and then affected by battle spirit. In this case, health regen should be buffed by a significant value (roughly between 40% and 80%). Here, I will suggest a value of 60%.

Now, lets see how a strong health regen set, like alessian order at cap, compares to healing sets like battalion defender or hitis heart. We will use an estimated boost to health regen via ingame buffs and passives (fortitude, heavy armor passives, sorc or dk passives) of 50% and an estimated buff to healing done + healing received of 20%. Furthermore, we will compare the values in case of PvP vs PvE.

Case 1)
- Alessian order gives up to 1320 * 1.5 = 1980 effective health recovery. This translates to pretty much unconditional (edit: as in you dont need to perform any action to get it) 1k healing per second. This value is true for both PvE and PvP.
- Battalion defender gives up to 2490 * 1.2 = 2988 healing per second in PvE, which would be halved to 2988 * 0.5 = 1494 healing in PvP. However, this healing is bound to blocking, and therefore needs someone to directly attack you and also actively uses resources and reduces your mobility. If we estimate an average of 1 block every 2 seconds, this set will heal for roughly 1.5k healing per second in PvE and 747 in PvP.
- Hitis heart will on average heal for 1020 * 1.2 * (10/12) = 1020 healing per second in PvE. This will translate to 510 healing per second in PvP. However, keep in mind that this is an AOE heal that also applies to your allies and has a minor cost reduction buff applied to it.

--> As you can see, health recovery is already weaker than healing sets in PvE (same healing as hitis but its only a selfish single target heal). However in PvP, due to not being affected by battle spirit, it is a much more beneficial, especially since it is not bound to any actions and passively heals you at all times, even when kiting and not casting any skills.

Case 2)
- Alessian order still gives roughly 1k health recovery in PvE, but this value is now halved in PvP for a measly 495 healing per second.
- Both battalion defender (with 1.5k healing in PvE and 747 in PvP if block every 2 seconds) and hitis heart (with 1k healing in PvE and 510 healing in PvP) stay the same.

--> Now the same problem we had in case 1) in PvE, now also applies to PvP, in that an aoe healing set like hitis heals for the same amount as a purely selfish single target health regen set like alessian. Furthermore, in PvE, healing sets still outperform health regen sets, so the PvE problem is not solved at all.

Case 3)
- Alessian order would now give up to 1320 * 1.6 = 2112 health recovery unbuffed on the 5 piece. In our example this would translate to 2112 * 1.5 = 3168 effective health recovery in PvE, or roughly 1.6k healing per second (more in line with our battalion defender example and stronger than the hitis aoe heal since it is only single target). Since it is now also affected by battle spirit, it would heal for 792 healing per second in PvP.
- Battalion defender and hitis heart still stay the same.

--> This change would lead to a big 60% buff of health recovery in PvE, making it more viable and competitive compared to healing sets, while at the same time leading to a 1.6 * 0.5 = 0.8 --> 20% nerf in PvP, reducing its effectiveness but not making it flat out useless as the 50% nerf in case 2) would do.

Im not sure if the 60% value is the right one, maybe it should be 50%, maybe it should be 70%. But I'm 100% sure that without buffing health regen beforehand, it will become a useless stat to build for in any content, so I hope ZOS will have a look at this. Now, asking the community, what are your thoughts? Would this be a good approach to find a balanced spot for health regen in both PvE and PvP?

Very good work here. Good idea, with well established logic/math to back it up

Sangwyne

GRXRG wrote: »

The nerf is not a mistake, I am tired of werewolves plebtards with 5k+ health regen and Impossible to take down 1vs1. I always hated passive hp regen that just saves you for doing nothing.
Getting 1k health every 2 seconds in combat is fair, getting 5k or 8k without active healing it's broken carry level.
A good step in the right direction.

You're about 6 months behind the meta. Werewolves were an issue months ago, they were already hit by the nerf bat multiple times. They were never an issue in PvE due to their extremely low damage and now their one redeeming factor in PvP has been gutted several times over. And then ran over with a U-Haul one last time for good measure.

Also, no one is achieving 5k and especially not 8k health regen without absolutely monstrous investment and very specific, niche builds. I'd like for people to actually try and achieve these builds they talk about and play them first. Even if someone DID achieve 5k health regen, that's a whopping 1250 HP/s, and zero damage, for literally their entire build. Which anyone can now achieve with a single proc set and far more damage, since the healing now scales with their damage stats.

HankTwo

@Sangwyne

Not sure, but judging by what you wrote earlier in this thread:

Sangwyne wrote: »

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat.

You seem to have the misconception that the health recovery you see on your stat sheet is halved when you are in combat. However, this is not the case! The health recovery in combat is exactly what the stat sheet shows, and instead the stat sheet value is doubled when outside of combat (it still ticks every 2 seconds).

Sangwyne wrote: »

GRXRG wrote: »

The nerf is not a mistake, I am tired of werewolves plebtards with 5k+ health regen and Impossible to take down 1vs1. I always hated passive hp regen that just saves you for doing nothing.
Getting 1k health every 2 seconds in combat is fair, getting 5k or 8k without active healing it's broken carry level.
A good step in the right direction.

Even if someone DID achieve 5k health regen, that's a whopping 1250 HP/s, and zero damage, for literally their entire build. Which anyone can now achieve with a single proc set and far more damage, since the healing now scales with their damage stats.

So, if you have 5k health recovery on your stat sheet it will translate to the following healing per second values:

1) Live server:

- PvE in combat: 5k every 2 seconds = 2500 HPS
- PvE outside of combat: 5k * 2 every 2 seconds = 5000 HPS

- PvP in combat: 5k every 2 seconds = 2500 HPS
- PvP outside of combat: 5k * 2 every 2 seconds = 5000 HPS

2) PTS:

- PvE in combat: 5k every 2 seconds = 2500 HPS
- PvE outside of combat: 5k * 2 every 2 seconds = 5000 HPS

- PvP in combat: 5k * 0.5 every 2 seconds = 1250 HPS
- PvP outside of combat: 5k * 2 * 0.5 every 2 seconds = 2500 HPS

If by the above reply you already meant the halved value in PvP on the PTS you should state that more clearly. It gets confusing otherwise, because it sometimes seems like you are arguing that health recovery is already a useless stat on the current live server, which it isn't (e.g. people making an argument that they think the current hp recovery is op and therefore feel like the nerf is deserved, and you responding that it is useless like its already halved on the live server).

etchedpixels

Sangwyne wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Stack that with new cp passive that gives you health regain for not using ultimate and troll king and have fun

Ah yes, let me just give up my entire ultimate, along with a CP slot,

For PvE at least with some setups it's one way to go. Running the warden bear is basically 1500 free health recovery in CP 2.0 and for solo and low level tank builds for dungeon farming it's definitely a reasonable option.

Sangwyne

HankTwo wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat.

You seem to have the misconception that the health recovery you see on your stat sheet is halved when you are in combat. However, this is not the case! The health recovery in combat is exactly what the stat sheet shows, and instead the stat sheet value is doubled when outside of combat (it still ticks every 2 seconds).

That's literally half the value. It's doubled outside combat, so half inside combat. If you hover over the health regen stat on your character sheet, it tells you that the listed value is what you receive in combat every two seconds. Thank you for pointing out that health regen out of combat still ticks every two seconds though.

The point is, the ones asking for these nerfs don't realize health regen is already halved in combat. In PvP, you are always in combat when it matters. Even when you aren't actually fighting something, you're STILL sometimes in combat because the combat state is so bugged. So now that Battle Spirit halves HP regen again, HP regen in PvP has 25% effectiveness. No other stat is impacted so heavily. Damage is only reduced by 44%, shields by 50%, even healing works at half effectiveness.

Artorias24 wrote: »

No, beekeeper HP regen doesnt get cut in half in combat. So beekeeper gives you 450 HP/s. Combined with buff food and mutliplier you easily reach 3k HP regen wich is 1500 HP/s. Basicly a vigor running all the time.

Equipping an entire 5 pc set of Beekeeper's just to get 225 HP/s is a complete ripoff compared to slapping one of the half-dozen healing proc sets that grant 2k+ HP/s, and still give over 1k HP/s in PvP.

Lughlongarm

The 50% Nerf is OK, Health recovery numbers got inflated over the years. However the basic set bonus of 129 must be adjusted, and other health recovery sources should be adjusted accordingly.

Many sources of health recovery are already high enough, but some other should looked at.

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Many people forget that recovery is already halved in combat.

You seem to have the misconception that the health recovery you see on your stat sheet is halved when you are in combat. However, this is not the case! The health recovery in combat is exactly what the stat sheet shows, and instead the stat sheet value is doubled when outside of combat (it still ticks every 2 seconds).

That's literally half the value. It's doubled outside combat, so half inside combat. If you hover over the health regen stat on your character sheet, it tells you that the listed value is what you receive in combat every two seconds. Thank you for pointing out that health regen out of combat still ticks every two seconds though.

The point is, the ones asking for these nerfs don't realize health regen is already halved in combat. In PvP, you are always in combat when it matters. Even when you aren't actually fighting something, you're STILL sometimes in combat because the combat state is so bugged. So now that Battle Spirit halves HP regen again, HP regen in PvP has 25% effectiveness. No other stat is impacted so heavily. Damage is only reduced by 44%, shields by 50%, even healing works at half effectiveness.

Artorias24 wrote: »

No, beekeeper HP regen doesnt get cut in half in combat. So beekeeper gives you 450 HP/s. Combined with buff food and mutliplier you easily reach 3k HP regen wich is 1500 HP/s. Basicly a vigor running all the time.

Equipping an entire 5 pc set of Beekeeper's just to get 225 HP/s is a complete ripoff compared to slapping one of the half-dozen healing proc sets that grant 2k+ HP/s, and still give over 1k HP/s in PvP.

Again the regen you get from beekeeper doesnt get halved in combat. Same goes for every other recovery you have. Would be not so smart having a set giving you a value that gets cut in half then moment it gets necessary right?

Just do some testing and you will see.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

Again the regen you get from beekeeper doesnt get halved in combat. Same goes for every other recovery you have. Would be not so smart having a set giving you a value that gets cut in half then moment it gets necessary right?

Just do some testing and you will see.

As @HankTwo has mentioned, recovery in combat is half the value of recovery outside of combat. Look, man, I literally do not know how else to say this, but please just try it for yourself. Recovery is halved in combat. You get half as much recovery in combat as you do outside of combat, for Health, Stamina, and Magicka. I have tested this. It's right there on your character sheet. It's been this way for years. Beekeeper's is not giving you 900 HP/s in combat. And after this patch, it's going to grant 450 every 2 seconds in PvP combat, for a whopping 225/s. Winter's Respite grants 2358 HP/s to all allies, and in PvP it's 1179 HP/s to all allies. 225 HP/s to just yourself vs. 1179 HP/s to you and all allies. No one is complaining about Winter's Respite. So why was HP regen targeted? You are literally getting less than a fifth of the value in healing from Beekeepers compared to Winter's Respite, a proc set that isn't even particularly overpowered, for yourself only.

Someone please explain it to me, I just don't get it. Why is HP regen being gutted? Where did all these people saying it's OP come from? Is this some sort of inside joke? It's not April Fools any more guys, am I the butt of a joke here or something? Why are people making threads about this when it's objectively bad? Am I playing the same game?

Why are we nerfing HP regen of all things and ignoring the real issues with PvP?

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

Again the regen you get from beekeeper doesnt get halved in combat. Same goes for every other recovery you have. Would be not so smart having a set giving you a value that gets cut in half then moment it gets necessary right?

Just do some testing and you will see.

Look, man, I literally do not know how else to say this, but that's completely wrong. Please try it. Recovery is halved in combat. You get half as much recovery in combat as you do outside of combat, for Health, Stamina, and Magicka. I have tested this. It's right there on your character sheet. It's been this way for years. Beekeeper's is not giving you 900 HP/s in combat. And after this patch, it's going to grant 450 every 2 seconds in PvP combat, for a whopping 225/s. Winter's Respite grants 2358 HP/s to all allies, and in PvP it's 1179 HP/s to all allies. 225 HP/s to just yourself /= 1179 HP/s to you and all allies.

The HP regen i see in my character stat is the HP regen i have while being in combat. And when i put beekeeper on it increases by 900 (+ modifiers). Out of combat its is more since all your regen is increased out of combat.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

The HP regen i see in my character stat is the HP regen i have while being in combat. And when i put beekeeper on it increases by 900 (+ modifiers). Out of combat its is more since all your regen is increased out of combat.

Recovery is doubled outside combat; it ticks at the same rate but heals for twice as much. The HP regen you see is every two seconds in combat. That's 900/2 = 450/s. Hover over the HP regen tooltip, it should clarify that. After the Battle Spirit nerf, that will be 450 every 2 seconds, which is 225/s. Meanwhile, Winter's Respite heals for 1179, which is over 5 times as much, in an AOE to everyone, scales off Stamina/Magicka and isn't getting nerfed. Nor am I asking for it to be nerfed. I am just trying to understand why players latched onto HP regen of all things as the new trendy thing to be nerfed. Are we just nerfing stuff for the sake of nerfing now? Or is it just a scapegoat?

Foto1 wrote: »

you just don't understand how regeneration works in this game

...And you do? If there's something I missed, then by all means, please explain. Why is Beekeeper being nerfed down to 225 HP/s necessary when Winter's Respite grants over five times as much healing to all allies?

Artorias24

Sangwyne wrote: »

Artorias24 wrote: »

The HP regen i see in my character stat is the HP regen i have while being in combat. And when i put beekeeper on it increases by 900 (+ modifiers). Out of combat its is more since all your regen is increased out of combat.

Recovery is doubled outside combat; it ticks at the same rate but heals for twice as much. The HP regen you see is every two seconds in combat. That's 900/2 = 450/s. Hover over the HP regen tooltip, it should clarify that. After the Battle Spirit nerf, that will be 450 every 2 seconds, which is 225/s. Meanwhile, Winter's Respite heals for 1179, which is over 5 times as much, in an AOE to everyone, scales off Stamina/Magicka and isn't getting nerfed. Nor am I asking for it to be nerfed. I am just trying to understand why players latched onto HP regen of all things as the new trendy thing to be nerfed. Are we just nerfing stuff for the sake of nerfing now? Or is it just a scapegoat?

Foto1 wrote: »

you just don't understand how regeneration works in this game

...And you do? If there's something I missed, then by all means, please explain. Why is Beekeeper being nerfed down to 225 HP/s necessary when Winter's Respite grants over five times as much healing to all allies?

That is what i am trying to explain. On live beekeeper gives 450/hps. With new battlespirit on pts it will get down to 225/hps. In your first post you said HP recovery is already getting halved in combat wich i tried to tell you. It is Not. Only with the new battlespirit

divnyi

There is no problem with health recoveries in live server, except for free health recoveries from CP.

Lets take extreme example: Alessian Order. It requires you to qualify a certain condition to have max value. Max value is 1320.

1320*1.4 (boost from potion) = 1846.

1846/2s = 923 HP/s.

Lets compare with skills. Regeneration-like HoTs have 15-20k in 10s tooltips (depends on your magica/spell power).
So 1.5-2k HP/s, halved by battle spirit, is 750-1000 HP/s. BUT it also crits, so often you can apply +20% multiplier on top. So, number is comparable.

Conclusion:
Is it strong? Yes, Alessian is a strong defensive set. It adds one skill HoTs for you.
Is it broken? No. If you sacrifice 5pc set for **personal** defence AND you qualify condition for set to work, you should get that defence.

Personal example:

My nord DK hits 4k regens in nocp - that is infused tri-glyphs, allesian and skulls with x1.4 multiplier. That's approx 2x normal hots that are ticking for myself only. Given how much I invested, I still think this is fair.

Now when it comes to CP, that's whooping 6k regens. 50% more of what I had when I invested pretty much 70% of my build into regens! CP numbers are way off. Nocp regens are fine.

If you want to buff PvE regens, then ye, we can cut PvP values and buff PvE, but it needs to be at least +60%.
0.5*1.6 = 80% of what we had. Lower than that outright kills health recovery in PvP.

Sangwyne

Artorias24 wrote: »

That is what i am trying to explain. On live beekeeper gives 450/hps. With new battlespirit on pts it will get down to 225/hps. In your first post you said HP recovery is already getting halved in combat wich i tried to tell you. It is Not. Only with the new battlespirit

Alright, let me ask you a question. On Live, if you have 1k HP regen and are out of combat, you heal for 2k HP every other second, for 1k HP/s, correct? How much do you heal inside combat? 1k every other second, for 500 HP/s, right? That's half.

@HankTwo kindly pointed out that HP regen doesn't tick every second for the listed value but every two seconds outside combat for twice the listed value, which I appreciate. Thanks Hank.

I feel like we're running in circles. Regardless of how you look at HP regen, whether it's double the amount outside combat or half the amount inside combat, Beekeeper's on PTS averages out to 225 HP/s and Winter's Respite averages out to 1179 HP/s, which is 5.24 times as much, for all allies rather than just yourself, and scales with Stamina/Magicka. And no one is complaining about Respite, nor do I think it needs to be addressed, it's fine.

So why is HP regen being nerfed?